Transcripts For CSPAN3 Timothy 20240706

Winning columnist timothy egan jims multiple books have inspired popular documentaries and have found their way into many classrooms. His book, the worst hard time the untold story of those who survived the bowl, won the National Book award and inspired ken burns documentary film the dust bowl is other books include a pilgrimage to eternity, the mortal irishman and the good rain, and was previously New York Times opinion columnist on politics. The American Experience and as a reporter, he was on the team that won Pulitzer Prize for the series how races lived in america. Here today with us to discuss his recent book fever in the heartland. The ku klux klan is plot to take america. And the woman who stopped them, it tells the story of a murderous con. The klans rise to power in indiana in the 1920s, and the woman led to their downfall. Booklist it riveting. Please join me in welcoming megan to the festival of books. So before we get going, i just to give a big thank you to the of tennessee making my wife and i feel so welcome. People really are friendly here ive misjudged you. You every place weve been they just been welcoming. You know, im going to put on 10 pounds in two days, but thats okay. Ill have my surgeon check my heart for cholesterol after i leave. But thank you to tennessee and this wonderful festival this wonderful turnout today. Youll lovers of story. Lovers of truth. Lovers of the written word. Were all here. This is our tribe. So thank you for. Making me feel at home. Welcome, ledger. Great. So im curious. Whenever i read a book like this that is a its historic. And im always curious, who was the keeper of this story before you came upon it . And and how did you come to write the book . Yeah so you start well, thats the second. But theres a quote i found from harry truman who said the only thing in this world is the history. We do not. And this is history. I did not know the Klu Klux Klan is rise in the twenties 100 years ago. They came this close, taking over the country. Now harry truman back in the twenties, like 6 million americans joined the klan. But as soon as he found out who they were that he would have to hate a third of his fellow americans. He turned in his sheet. So i do not know that 6 million americans a hundred years ago put their hand on a bible and swore out an oath to forever uphold white. I did not know that 75 members of congress were in the klans circle. I did not know there were four elected governors who were sworn klansmen or four senators. And the most biggest source of my ignorance. Now, we know that the klan, unfortunately, started in your state. In 1866. Nathan bedford was the first grand dragon, and they were started by, you know, half dozen men in pulaski, tennessee, exconfederate were fueling onward, and they were upset by simple fact that 36 of the People Living in their midst had been enslaved. And now they were citizens. Thats what started them. The 28 klan got its hold in the state of indiana where one in three white males took the klan. So my my i heard about this was im a Pacific Northwest Third Generation northwest here and id always heard about the klan, oregon, if they had a klan governor in the 1920s and that they were the only state, the United States to vote to outlaw Catholic Schools. Now, why did they want outlaw Catholic Schools . Because the klan, the twenties, had expanded their range of hatreds from the earlier. Earlier klan hated, blacks. They could not tolerate blacks on equal standing with the new klan hated catholics hated immigrants, hated socially liberated flappers. It was the twenties. The jazz. And these women had just been given vote. So they outlawed schools in oregon because. They were largely full of immigrants, mainly ins from southern italy and and so, i mean, in oregon im working on this piece, the youve looked at klan governor and and it was sort of said, well, you know, colorado had a klan governor in 1924. I said, kidding me, i start researching that and they open klansmen whose motto in 1924 election was every man under the capitol dome, a klansman. And then once he was elected, he tried to fire every black, every and every. That was the story stuck in colorado. I keep moving east in indiana. So i look at indiana and it was a literal klan republic. Thats what they called it. All members of congress belong to the klan. Both senators were sympathetic perhaps not take took the oath. The governor took the klan oath and it was all run by this one evil grifter. But this history to answer your question, nathan, had been completely forgotten. We are really good at celebrating our good parts as well. We should. But we practice historical amnesia. Were afraid of some of our bad parts. And in indiana, i get so notes every day from people saying, i didnt know any of this. They dont teach it. And im a student of. American history, i think i like to use my harry truman quote, i did not know this. So every author is excited about the chance to tell a new story a chance to tell something. And this had almost a biblical like quality to it. The middle and that tragic. Its quite amazing. Yes. So in the epilog, im going to jump to the end here in the epilog you mention a treasure trove of information that was found and was kept in archives. It was there was some debate over who would be able to read and look at it. Im curious thinking about that. How much of the Historical Documents you able to look at, what process did you go through to collect all those and get access to that . So this is the interesting thing about. The story, its largely their except for that trunk. Now, this is what happened. The of noblesville indiana where my trial takes place the last of this book is a trial of this awful monster who drove the indiana klan guy named dc stephenson. He was the grand dragon, but he ran the state and was a he was a rapist. He was a serial liar. He was a roaring drunk. But he ran state and he would put up the slate of klan backed candidates to vote for. And everybody what they were doing. And they voted for them. So hes on trial and for this horrible crime of and cannibalizing this woman tudor nearly death actually was just a horrible monster of a man. This is the guy who dropped out of the sky. One 4th of july. Kokomo, indiana, the largest gathering in the history of the world of the ku klux klan. 200,000 people showed up in kokomo to greet this guy. So after the trial was and everything like, they sort of forgot and things just closed down, the klan cratered. And in noblesville, indiana where this trial happened, lovely town about 35 miles north of indianapolis, they put all plans, robes, all the documents of who belonged and all these weird hats, the rituals. And the oic took and put it in this truck and trunk was found by a builder in 1995, and out pops secrets people go, grandpa, grandma, my neighbor and all this, this 10,000 names of this town of only 20,000. Almost half the people belong the klan. What do they do . They decided close the trunk and said, you know, were not going to let anyone see this. So it was closed for another 20 years when i started my research. It had been opened again. Mm. You know, its interesting. Ive done hosted sessions for and i would say 75 of the authors are journalists by trade and have been. Im curious how your journalistic skills played a part in this because it was you were looking at things in the past but im that that paid right played a huge part in it. Well so im primarily storyteller and i come i like to think from irish storytelling tradition a Irish Catholic family, kenny waterford and i got into journalism. You cant make a living as a writer unless you have a day job. Right . And journalism allows you to see the world and to have powerful people. Return your phone calls and to just an average person. Cant do that. So you can do it. As a journalist, that was a great opening for me. Some authors, when they if had a couple of success is i had do not do their own research love the research because so many surprise so many things when i was doing the research on the dustbowl i would go town to town on these really small dying towns of Southern Plains and i would meet with the circle of old ladies almost all women, because theyd outlive the men and theyre in their upper nineties now. Theyre all dead now, but they through the dust bowl and every once in a while id be so one of these women would go back and i have a shoebox, bring back the shoebox and open up the shoebox. And there were the letters, diaries pictures of that worst hard time. And so as a journalist, thats your wow moment. As a storyteller, you then try to put those things together. And ill tell you one quick story that and again, another thing i didnt know. I see a gentleman wearing that notre dame shirt go, irish and so i have to tell you a story that i didnt know. And part of my family grew up south bend, so i should have known this in 1924 when the klan was at its absolute and ran every office in india that remained one source of opposition. Well, the naacp had come in and said not voting republican anymore. They were loyal republican voters. And they said, unless you, president coolidge denounce whats happened here in indiana, a klan republic will not vote republican. Well, didnt really go very far. Did start the shift away from the republican party. But the real source of institutional opposition catholics and the source of the catholics was University Notre dame. So dc stevens, in this evil, awful rapist serial, killing, you know, pillaging and sexual predator ing, lying, grand dragon, he did not have a single good quality. Thats what investigator he says im going to show those irish kids. And he arranges a big klan gathering in south bend, specifically to put those kids down to show them who runs the state. What happened . The chancellor in priest says, dont leave campus. Were not going to engage them. Well, they disobey and they had a riot back and forth and these kids, theyre mostly irish kids. This was one of the funny things. They end up throwing potatoes. At the klansmen who are fleeing this barrage of potatoes. And one of the legend has it shots came notre dames quarterback. One of the four horsemen, and he shot on their flaming cross thing. So they cower up in their thing. And the next day theres a big headline i saw it, chicago tribune, irish wrote klansman said, you know, ill get from then on they were known as the fighting irish and and and thats what again, one of the stories i didnt know. Yeah. Be proud of your irish. Yeah. Yeah. My grandfather graduated 27. He was there when school greer threw that potato and, talked about it. Oh, thats great. Way to go. In order to give a speech. Oh, thats fantastic. Yeah, he was very, very, very proud. Yeah. Great. Wow. So as i read the book, it actually reminded me of an oliver stone documentary series that was on, i think netflix was sort of untold history of america. Right. And a lot of it was the people who came in second or third in elections or, our history that we wanted to forget. And one thing that this book pointed out to me that that i didnt know about and i knew about the klan. I knew about its atrocities, but i didnt what it had done to , catholics and other races. I didnt know about that. And thats interesting part of amnesia that america sort of taken. Its not just part of amnesia, but its its basic struggle. Are we a nation of immigrants . Were were despair. And were in one of those times where that experiment is teetering. And the experiment is, we dont belong to any one tribe. We dont have state religion. That was genius of our constitution was to rebel what europe had done and say were not going to have the king, the monarch tied to a single faith any. Faith can practice here. Thats still an experiment. And when you open that experiment to, other tribes, other races, and you open that thing to other faiths, youre going to have trouble. So weve you see this coursing through american hot and cold on it all. What happened in the twenties was there was a huge surge of immigration, but these were immigrants from different parts of the world. There were Eastern European pogroms were going on in the Eastern Europe. People were coming in, forcing people out of their homes, hanging them, chasing them, killing them. We got 2 million came to our country in less than a ten year period, sicily had an earthquake in the i think it was 1910. And in the next ten years, 800,000, 800,000 sicilians came to our country and they were darker skinned. So you had Southern Italian catholics, you had Eastern Europe and. And then one more thing, the great migration was going africanamerican, moving out of the jim crow south, where they had no right of citizenship. Again, 36 of the population, but couldnt be a citizen, couldnt practice. The normal rights of free man. So theyre moving north. So these three huge things move into the country Southern Italians didnt look like the earlier immigrants and blacks moving north cause this real americanism. And thats why they hated , immigrants, catholics because they they had this thing. They see these signs. Businesses say we serve only 100 americans. They took out signs. They took out ads in the indianapolis star, the diner, saying you can expect to be served only by 100 americans and 1 of americas. Just one thing white protestants. So fought the revolutionary war, 180,000 blacks fought in the civil war, but 200,000 blacks fought in world war one. I think 40,000 of them were killed when came home after world war one and try to be part of this country in the 1920s, they were citizens. So thats what is rebelling against. And whenever you have social tumult like that. You change in the face of america. It our basic premise, you know, are we a country thats not based on a tribe or a religion. One of the great examples in the book about the migration is i think the story about the record studio. Yeah. Can you can you convey the and kind of why thats important. Im really glad you brought that up because i may not sound like this. Ive written ten books. I am an optimist. I still very positive about the future of our country i have two little twin grandkids i welcome into the world. I hope here 90 years from now and a good country. I couldnt get out of bed if i didnt. Optimistic, so i found in the midst of this bleak, dark, horrible period where, lets not forget who they are. This is americas oldest domestic group. They were like a mayberry clan. They had all these they had a Baseball Team with ku klux klan stitch across their jersey. They would hire oompah bands. And at christmas time they would get out candy to orphans and, you know, on the surface they were very mayberry but below the surface they burned people out of their houses they killed couple of priests they certainly harassed blacks in indianapolis. The busses bus company would not pick up blacks going to work at the bus stops they had segregated schools. There was a lynching the last lynching of a man north of the masondixon line happened in marion, indiana. So they did some awful, awful stuff beneath this, you know, surface americanism. But i was looking for some signs of our human ity. Were here sponsored by the tennessee humanities and i believe in the humanities. So what this is another great story. And i tell it in one chapter, Louis Armstrong goes to richmond, indiana, is right on the ohio border to record it. Had the only Recording Studio between los angeles and new york was in richmond, indiana. It was a some italianamerican who started the jeannette piano studio, a piano making company, and then they had a Recording Studio in this little shed by the railroad and these Louis Armstrongs band was in. Hed moved north from new orleans. They wanted to cut the first black jazz record. So chose richmond, indiana. Unfortunately, they chose it on the day of largest klan rally in history of richmond, indiana. 40,000 people turn out with one of these klan had a plane, too, with kkk underneath. It just surging, marching, proclaiming White Supremacy and in the middle of all of this, in this little 100 square foot shed with he stuffed in the walls, the sound of be good is Louis Armstrong recording the first with nine other jazzmen black jazzman recording the first recording of american jazz, a record that went on to sell hundreds, millions worldwide. We gave world this music for american jazz and it in part got us genesis in the middle of all this. Im really glad you brought that up. It was a great part of the story. Yeah, i think we should also match. Weve talked a little about dc stevenson, but madge overholt was. You talk about being hopeful right i mean shes the voice of hope her valediction is the hope that one voice represents one voice standing up and, changing america and would be the world. So change is history. So subtitle of this book, you know the ku klux klan plot to take over america. The woman who stopped them. Ill get to the woman in just a second. Let me remind how powerful they were in 1924 before she stopped. We hold our political conventions as 1924 democrats and republicans. Time magazine right after. The convention put the imperial who was the top object up of all klan on the cover and wrote this largely adulatory story saying no lobbying group was more influential at the political conventions in 1924 than the ku klux klan. They got everything they wanted. There was there was a resolution put forward to denounce what was going on in indiana to denounce to actually was it was in a real anodyne way that you said the resolution said all americans created equal basically what the declaration of independence said and they couldnt pass that at two convention. So this guys on the cover of time and they theyre to get their four governors and their plot to get a president ial candidate. Theyve got 6 billion sworn klansmen in 24. And they think well have 20 million by 28. Thats the year they to run a president ial candidate. So theyre on the cusp of real power. One more thing they staged a demonstration in washington, d. C. 50,000 people turn out openly walking from the Capitol Building to treasury building, proclaiming klan values across klan march. Thats how powerful they were. Notre dame couldnt stop them the naacp, stop them. A handful of very brave rabbis who stood up to them couldnt stop them. So very good. And i want to emphasize this because religion was good and bad in this was a very good protestant christian ministers donelson from the pulpit. Now, a lot of klan ministers were bought and paid for by dc stevenson and they did his bidding. He, one of his geniuses was to a Christian Faith to sanctify the klan. So he bribed all these ministers to sing klan values from the pulpit. But there were ministers who opposed them. The press opposed them, but only a handful. This guy george dale got the beat out of him and it was put in jail by a klan judge. You think the First Amendment applies to everyone . It did not apply in muncie, indiana. How you criticize a judge. He slapped him in jail without a trial, put him in a penal form for the crime of practicing free speech. So these groups leading up to match fell by the wayside. It falls to one accidental character of a 28 year old woman living in irvington, indiana. She been a schoolteacher, and now shes working for the state and literacy program. She was a perfect woman of her age. She was liberated. She was sort of a flapper. She cut her hair short nabob, like a lot of women did. She enjoyed going out. She dated men, but she wasnt ready to get married yet. She did a very daring thing, drove across the country in a car, her and another girlfriend in, 1924 before the lincoln highway was even in. It was a very deal. And so she goes. The grand dragon, who lives 12 blocks from her in this giant mansion where he throws these debauched parties with hes a sailor and naked pop out of. And this is a guy who proclaimed sacredness of womanhood and we should outlaw alcohol in every square inch of america. While hes got every brand booze, you know, just flowing, she has to go see to try to save her job. And she gets entangled with him. He takes hes attracted to her. She agrees to go out with him. And i dont want to spoil the story. Oxford is say he commits an awful crime he rapes her and he choose nearly to death and she lays bed day after day 104 105 degree temperature. No ones been able to this guy is raped several and the women are all afraid. He wants the department. Hes got plan policemen up and down the midwest, she says before, i die. If i die, i want to see justice done. So her words in Court Without spoiling the story again ultimately bring this guy down when he is brought to justice, the words match overholser of what this awful man did shocked the nation its the trial of the century in indiana and all newspapers newsreels are covering this across. So this organization that proclaims the virtual womanhood is its top leader is a rapist this Organization Claims that we should go full on with prohibition is a raging alcoholic bootlegger. This organization that says it practices christian values does anything but that and all these secrets are exposed most at the trial. The trials end the klan creators. It goes from 6 million members to under 100,000 because people have seen the true evil face of this organization thats one interpretation. Another interpretation which i tease out at the end of the book is the klan got most of what they wanted in the twenties. What did they want . Prohibition. They got that. What do they want . No more immigrants from Eastern Europe or southern southern europe. They got that the 1924 immigration act was a a blueprint for white people for the next 60 years made it almost they think up to 4 million were killed by hitler would probably have lived had had found comfort in america had not the 24 immigration and their third thing was jim crow and jim crow moved north so oregon where i started my research segregated neighborhoods segregated. Asians were not allowed to own. So they got there. Theres two interpretations of this. One is she brought them down, which i think is true, because she exposed the black heart at the center of this organization and two is they got most of what they wanted. Another question that you ask is the idea of whether he called up the storm, whether dc called up this storm hate or was he riding the wave of hate or in or of feelings came out as hate, right . Its a great so i dont like to leave too many these questions dangling i try to answer them in the book and thats one of the themes is was there a vein of hatred kind of goes up and down in our history i think of it as a vein underground being a copper or something. Sometimes closer to the surface, sometimes as deep vein of hatred and tapped into that vein or. Did he invent that then . I think what he did was because he was a he was con man. He was a music man of hate. He went from town to town saying, we got trouble right here in river city. And its those catholics and its and its those immigrants. Its those blacks, and its those drinking till two in the morning in the speakeasies blamed them all and he was he shows up in Evansville Indiana just right across from the ohio river, having appeared out of nowhere, seemingly out of nowhere. What had happened actually was he ditched his wife and his newborn child just completely abandoned her and said, dont to find me, you wont find me. This is in oklahoma. Shows up a nice suit and a way with words. And within four years hes running the state of indiana now. He was just looking for ways to make he never made any money until he joined the ku klux klan. And in four years he was worth about 15 million. He had huge mansion in irvington, indiana. He had his own private plane, the one that he dropped down when he descended over. He had a 98 foot yacht on which he entertained senators. And judges and members of congress have powerful, you know, men of business. He found that, unfortunately, hatred was a renewable resource. He could tap it and he said it is a white state. They did it. They are still and were then one of the most homogenous states in the country, just a handful of. But they would preach these horrible oral speeches saying boycott the jewish businesses they set armed goons out to close down jewish shops that were open on sunday. They had the 30th thousand people legally deputized to harass enemies of klan certified virtue. So stevenson saw clearly that there was a fear if he could play to this fear of others this changing america, maybe it wasnt indiana, but its going to come did in those blacks start a movement in indianapolis those will soon be here from new york city. God knows weve already got irish italians these priests are all loyal to rome these nuns have these secret rituals going the convents he burned down several convents. So he played to this fear of others and it made him rich and the good your question was was that their. I think it was their but it took a very skillful demagogue to bring it to life bring it to form. So youre in the bio that i shared chronicler of the American Experience also as you put it the american experiment. And then as we were talking before we started, we were talking about how history rhymes and i was wondering if you could maybe comment on how maybe you hear some rhymes. Yeah or what youve learned from the book that you could share with us. So i think i, i dont want to take credit for that line. The line is history repeat itself, but it rhymes. I believe i got it. I did a documentary with ken burns mention on the dust bowl, and i spent a lot of time on the ken burns north pole, which is just a little village, new hampshire. It makes horse documentaries and it totally remind me of the north pole. Santas little workers. You know, were all putting our burns, documentaries. And so i spent some time against a great guy. And i thought i thought hes the one who said that that history doesnt repeat itself, but it rhymes. So it rhymes itself. The renewable hatreds that i mentioned rhymes in that our better angels are sometime nowhere to be found. Lincoln coined the term about our better angels. Sometimes the devils, all the better devils. And you know, i never mention a certain. 91 count indicted twice impeached seal seal prevaricating expresident. But everyone brings that up and it is not mentioned at all and i just all ill say on that is on unfortunately i say this as a lover of all americanisms we occasionally in the 1920s did and weve done it before all for economy all for somebody who says the things we want to hear and says, hmm, in a certain way were willing to overlook this. The shocking thing madge overholser laid, dying of fever from the infections from the bite marks that its men left on her body raping her train. And it was headlines every day better headlines all the midwest badged lives today. 23 madge temperature at one everyone was falling. It please match live you can make it and was demonstrations and all that as she lay dying and stevenson had been charged them by a brave prosecutor because he owned most of the prosecutors judges. Theres a real hero in this book named will remi, another good guy. I was lucky enough when i was reading in louis a gentleman came up to me, shook my hand and said im will remis grandson. Its like, my god, just brought to life. You know, well was the only prosecutor who didnt go to this dinner where they all swore up their loyalty to this monster. Stevens as madge lays dying and we know how awful it is. Stevenson in from jail of the 1924 elections issues heres my favorite slave art for state offices and city offices. And theyre all klansmen. They all Win Every One of them. So they knew how bad was, but they still did. Why do we do that . Why do we do that . Why are willing to overlook awfulness. Its not for the greater good. Its for the greater evil. So that runs through that. You know, heres all ill say about that. I really honestly, nathan, because i dont like to leave too many things dangling, like i said to come up with the answers. What made america what made the quintessential american turn to hate again, not just to hate, but to a tear and part of the reason this i think i say this by way of conclusion i dont think i can answer the first part. Dc stevenson was a con man, but he had no shame. He had no bottom he was willing to go there where no man would go. I would bet every person in this room has a click of conscience at. Happens when you do something truly bad and you feel bad. Thats our conscience. He was a sociopath. He was there was no bottom to shame. And if you have no youre willing to go there. Unfortunately, you have lot of power. So ive concluded that, you know, a shameless person can go pretty far because. The conscience doesnt stop there. Now, the other part of the equation how can good folks get drawn in by that . We all have to answer. I think this is a good point to open the floor up to some questions. If anyone would like ask him a question, please queue up at the microphone. Go ahead. Yes, maam. Yeah. Just curious about the relationship between the klan and prohibition. Why were they in support of prohibition and still drinking at the same time . Yeah that doesnt make sense. Right. So there was a lobbying group thats in this terrific by Daniel Okrent called last call, which is a great story of prohibition. I think ken burns, a film out of that, or pbs, made a film the Largest Group in the early night, early late teens was the saloon league. And it was this weird combination. Id say weird of just paraphrase, do gooder liberals who thought, you know, if could just take alcohol out of the equation these men wouldnt drink their paychecks away in the saloons at night and far right you know evangelicals who thought the grape in the green was the biggest crime against humanity and they burst together. And the klans interest in that had to do with fact that alcohol was the lubricant, a social lubricant for the immigrant groups. They hated irish, italian and germans. Germans are beer drinking people. I just came back from munich. I was there during the the october. My god, it makes your party street look like a scene at the picnic sunday. Every walk with giant beer steins and later holsten and they drink a lot of beer and. I saw i read saw the death so average german drinks 80 liters of beer a year so my god and when they moved to this country they didnt stop beer or making it. Italians drink a lot of wine. They drank more wine than water because the wine was safer. The Irish Whiskey is known. I did a book. An irish who is known. Theres a gaelic word i cant remember, but its known as the mothers milk. So these people brought their drinking traditions to this country. They also brought the places where they did drink, which were saloons and thats where they learned to vote. And so these bars and, saloons, my grandmother in chicago owned a bar on the south side of chicago. My dad never lived on the he lost his dad and lived on a first second floor in the bar was on the first floor. And it was where all the irishmen because they would gather thats where they learned who theyre going to vote for. So there is not if we closed to kill alcohol will kill the lubricant that holds these immigrants together. And what happened was we drank more in the 1920s than ever before. And i must say up front, i live in pulaski, tennessee. I actually grew up in a little small town next, it called louis lewisburg. And my first understanding of the ku klux klan came from my grandmother. And as you can tell, thats been quite a long time ago. And my played it ku klux klan was a really good group of people that. If her husband was on faithful, they would come down on him. So that was my first understand of ku klux klan. We had lots of stores. Lewisburg, tennessee. We had one store that was all is the jewish store. So that was my childhood and now, as i said, i live pulaski, tennessee, and i belong to a group of people that try to recognize the people in jones county that are deserving of recognition. And so we have just recently the colored troops, thats the term used colored troops and foreign civil war because they turn the state out and sent the civil war to end, which probably saved a lot of lives so, so put into place in jails. Daniels recognizing those people now and for the black people that are on my committee, they so that people will not come even to visit charles county, tennessee, because thats where the ku klux klan got started. And none of the black people who want to come out of indiana, illinois, all the different northern states because of so thats a roundabout of getting to my particular i appreciate your book and think its a worthwhile thing to let people think its all new to. Ive never heard a lot this all ive heard but i up with and what no jobs county how do you do you even fill up responsibility toward getting that information out not just selling your book but getting that information to people so they realize right the possible problems that we as a nation have when we try to encourage hatred across art. I also think it gives you a blueprint of opposition to and you know, it shows you one of the things that these different groups of people who allied together fight the klan. They started this newspaper tolerance and every week they would print a list of the klansmen. They had people on the inside giving them membership lists. So they would print, they would headline was whos who in bedsheets and so they would have all these members. But heres happened unfortunately georgia strong klan was the toes instead of being shameful this doxing as we would call it was validating people read it and go oh oh. I didnt know that the guy who delivers my milk is joy, you know, youd see all these people who are your neighbors. And one more thing on that, your first point i forgot to mention is one of the things the klan did because they had 30,000 men legally deputized, they called the horse thief protection association, which was a holdover from when there were actual horse thieves in india. There were no thieves anymore. But this organization was a Vigilante Group that was deputized. And what they did is they went people who were drinking and, you know, but they would go after men, especially small towns, who were said to be unfaithful and they would, you know, threaten to, hang them tar and feather them, shame them. The great irony, of course, is the guy at the head of this woman protecting is a rapist and, you know, sexual predator. You know, who at one point was engaged to three different women just a horrible person. So. Yeah, well, weve come to the end of our session time today and i want to thank tim egan for being here with us. Thank you, dave. Im so excited to be talking today. Kat calvin about her book american identity in crisis notes from an accidental activist. Kat is also founder executive