Transcripts For CSPAN3 Roxanna 20240706

Columnist writer for the san Antonio Express news and i cant say enough about this book. We were once a family a story of love, death and child in america. It is a difficult book to reach read, which i understand is not. The first thing you should say if you try encourage people to buy books. But it is. It is difficult because its but its also essential because it challenges how much we really care in this state, in this country about, the children we we care about. When something this can happen. Devonte, jeremiah see our Marcus Hannah abigail. These are the six children who were in a suv march 26, 2018, when they adopted mothers drove the suv, the cliff suicide and murders as shocking. Nothing is more shocking than mothers committing suicide but themselves and the six children. But almost as shocking as how these adopted mothers were able to get these children in their custody to begin with, and thats the story that did roxana writes brilliantly in the story me introduce you briefly, then well get to our conversation Roxanna Asgarian is texas based journalist who writes about courts and the for the texas tribune. She now lives in dallas. Her work has appeared. The washington post, new york and texas, among other publications. She received a 2022 jay Anthony Lucas work in progress award for we were once a family. Ladies and gentlemen, Roxanna Asgarian Roxanna Asgarian. They there are so many places i want to go in this book. I want to go with this book. But i also to make sure that we have time for questions. This is a searing indictment of texas foster care system. But theres so much else in there. And i just want you to to lay out the story about what happened on march 26, 2018, and what led that. Okay. Can you all hear me good. So when the crash happened, it it initially looked like an accident because it was on the Pacific Coast highway and it was at a like a turnout point. Places like that are kind of known for these types of accidents, like losing control of stuff like that. But investigators quickly noticed that the that there were no break marks on the road and the family was living Washington State at the time so when they reached out to the local officials in washington and they had told them that cps actually trying to reach the family at that current time to initiate an abusive association against the moms. So at that point, it began to look like it, an accident and that it was a murder. I, i living in houston at the time and, i got a breaking news assignment from the oregonian which is the Portland Daily newspaper, and they asked me to door knock on one of the birth families. So theres six kids in there from two sibling groups. So theres two separate birth families. And thats how i initially got involved in the story. Is that birth family that was the davis family allowed me into their home and. They started explaining how they lost their children in the first place and it became clear that it was a story than what was being reported. And what was that story . Because the great thing, one of the one of the themes of of your book is throughout the nation, especially in texas. It too easy to terminate the rights of parents the parents, write to their children, and it happens more frequently with with with with black in this case we have, you know, a married couple, two white women. And these two sets of of of siblings. And one of the things that that that you show in your book is that they were a members of both sets of children who there to take them in. Yeah, but they werent allowed to. Yeah. In the case of the davis family so they the kids those three kids were raised in houston before. They were removed and their birth mother sherri she struggled with drug abuse and the kids had both a father figure who was basically their primary caretaker at their annual nathaniel yeah. And he wasnt their biological and so when the when cps became involved i think that relationship kind of confused them he lost custody not for anything that he did but because his wife he had a drug problem. So they were removed from his care and they went into the foster care system. And then they ended up with their aunt who her name was, priscilla. And she was a really upstanding and she wanted to adopt the kids at that time, there was four kids. So when the oldest did not get adopted by harts because he was ten years old when he was removed and he realized that what was happening that . He was being removed from his family and he started acting out and they put him in a residential treatment center, which is basically like an institutional setting. And he he wasnt able to his siblings again, so he was split from them. But when the the aunt basically lost custody because she did not have child care day, her normal child, which was her grown daughter. Was unavailable and. So she asked sherri, their mom, watch the kids and the caseworker stopped by unannounced and saw their birth mom there with them and. They removed them immediately on the spot and they never had custody of them again. Why does it happen like that . So why . Why is that the norm . Yeah, well, in this case, like sherri had terminated, she had relinquished her her parental rights and she did because her attorney said in order for priscilla who was the aunt to adopt the kids, she had they had to be legally free for adoption. And you cant get adopted when you have legal parents. So sherri relinquished, her rights with the understanding the kids would be with their aunt, which was still in their family and still their community. But what when you terminate your rights that think a lot of birth mothers dont understand when they when they choose to give up their rights, is that the minute your rights are terminated, you no longer have any say in what happens to your kids and you also arent in this case she wasnt allowed to be around them. So thats why thats why the removal was because she was not allowed to be watching the kids. And how do jennifer and sara hart play into this . So, so the aunt made this huge mistake and she wanted to she she petition to adopt and she was trying to get the kids back. And while that was happening. They went on the Texas Adoption Resource Exchange website. So they became sort of advertised as available for adoption. And jennifer and sara, they were a couple who both grew up in south dakota, but they were living in minnesota at the time and they had already adopted three kids at that point. So they also from texas. From texas as well. Yeah. So they had done the process once before before and so they the kids were moved to minnesota at that point, even when the aunt had. So she had she had petition to adopt, it was denied and then she had appealed that decision and before that appeal was decided they were already adopted away in minnesota. I was going to ask about that name. The Texas Adoption Resource Exchange. It it sounds commodities. Yeah, it doesnt sound like youre dealing with children. Yeah well, you know, in the case of sibling groups, theyre like considered more difficult to get adopted because, you know, its more than one kid. So a lot of people, a lot of people who want to adopt from the foster system are looking for like young kids or babies and so sibling groups are, you know, a sibling group of three is tough. And think in the case of the heart, women that they were taking on sibling kind of allowed the i feel that their adoption was fast tracked for that because you know because texas officials knew that its sort of to place sibling groups and so they had this willing party and you know in texas sent the kids away. They paid stipends for the rest of the kids lives, but they never checked up on what was happening because by time, the second set of kids were adopted, there had already been an allegation of abuse against the parents going and going to other allegations of abuse that would that would come up with the outcome with the second set of children. Yeah. So the were in a Public School in minnesota, all six of them and the teachers calling home to report that the kids were really hungry that they didnt seem like they were getting enough to eat. The women would say that the kids had food issues which is actually common for kids who have experienced like repeated placement disruptions. One of the moms told the teacher, oh, shes just playing the food card, so just give her water when the when the child was saying that she was really hungry, the teachers started realize that when they called home, it seemed like the kids were getting in trouble. And so they stopped calling. At a certain point. But the the teachers noticed bruises on one of the kids and that basically started the first cps investigation where one of the moms was just sarah pled guilty. Domestic abuse. What was the motivation of of jennifer and sarah . Because one of the things thats clear is that especially jennifer, they were presenting this facade of i dont know, this very day, this very progressive couple creating this this idea or motivational and theyre actually using these children as props, yeah, its so Something Interesting about this case is that Jennifer Hart was really vocal on media and particularly on facebook, and she was a photographer as a hobby and so she would be taking these really like welllit shots of the kids with the big cheesy smiles on face and writing all about their adoption journey, which is like a pretty common thing. Theres this social network of people who and its usually the adoptive moms are writing about their journey. But the problem with that was a the things that she was talking about were hiding like a really an alternate reality where. The kids werent being fed, they were being harmed. But also it was only her voice. So we never heard from the kids basically again, except for through this distorted lens that jennifer put out to the world. And she say that these these two sets of siblings, they were adopted. Between 2006, 2008, and they were with the for ten years, ten, 12 years and 12 years with with and this is book with jennifer. Weve been talking about the food issues she claimed, you know, they were living this Healthy Lifestyle and and were vegetarians after the suicide murders was found in the in their house, the kind food. Yeah, there was a lot of meat in the house, which was weird because its in they didnt this in the book but because i spoke to jennifers siblings and one of them was like, well, that was just for her because she has anemia its like doesnt make it any better when they when they the house, they found that there werent enough beds for the children so there was like a several indicators inside the home that the kids werent being properly cared for, you know, when the washington officials were initiating the investigation that was the third cps investigation against the family. And so there had been repeated moments in various because when the investigation would close, they would move. So they moved from minnesota, oregon and then from oregon to washington. And in each place they were investigated and found really alarming stuff. So like the oregon investigation found that five of six of the kids were so small that werent even on the growth charts for their ages, which was really alarming. And the doctor said. Well, we dont know their biological, so they might just be small. But the issue with would be that they came from two different biological families. So the chances of five of the six kids not even being on the growth charts, it really, you know, those are and contrast that with what was happening with the birth families was not a situation of abuse but was, you know, these sort of more they were sort of neglect issues so poverty trauma, drug, mental illness, those were the things that the birth families were dealing and they were treated super punitively. And then the adoptive families, the warning signs were of like actual abuse and and those things were basically not ever found to be a reason to remove the kids. How much do you blame the state of texas texas . I but i have to kind of well, you know, i think texas has an outsized in what happened because the kids are were texans they came they they were born here and texas was initially responsible for them. And so they not only removed them from their birth families and from their extended family members, but they sent them across lines. And then they never checked on them. Yeah. So the fact that they were 400 a month per child. For the entirety of the time they were adopted. So that was 12 and ten years and they never they never realized that sarah had pled guilty to Domestic Abuse of children, that there have been three cps investigations. So i think that there is a i that a lot of the blame does lie with texas although i would say that there were multiple agencies and that kind of is more indicative of like a systemic issue rather than just one specific bad caseworker. What is the systemic issue . I think theres a real disparity treatment of cps in both families . I think the birth families are treated really punitively. And i think that almost of them are struggling with poverty. Virtually all of them. And so instead of providing some supports and meaningful support, you, we give Foster Parents a monthly stipend, right . In texas, we gave kinship placements. So family less than half what we give Foster Parents but theyre more likely to be living in poverty because everyone involved in cps living in poverty. So theres things like that where theres just its a its essentially sets up a preference for out of family care even though we know and have all this research a long period of time that kids do best in their family homes and if not with their birth parents, then with their family members. Yeah, the particulars, the in houston that Patrick Patrick shelton the one that hes hes kind of hes indicative of maybe in an extreme way but hes kind of indicative of this of this bias in in favor of removing children, giving them to families. A little bit about because hes the one that did gave the davis Davis Children to the yeah hes the one that terminated the parental rights the davis kids and Patrick Shelton was sort of a unique character but was really indicative of how things are run. So in harris county, which is houston, theres only three judges that are responsible for all the cps cases, and thats the thats texas largest county. So youre getting youre seeing a lot of kids and theres a lot of really reporting from the Houston Chronicle and the Houston Press in the nineties and 2000. That really talks about a lot the issues in sheltons court. He got caught charging parents, attorneys when they were indigent, which against the law he he had an atlas that he would keep at the bench and he would ask latino families who were in front of him where they came from and look at it on the map and say well, that looks like a great place. Why dont you back there . So there was like overt racism in the court and. It was also just like everyone who knew him recognize that. He really wanted the cases to be fast like he wanted the cases out of the docket and. Ultimately, what that ends up looking like is parental rights, termination. Its sometimes in cases. So like in dantes case, hes the older brother. He wasnt adopted, but his parent, his rights to his parents were terminated. So he was basically made a orphan, which is like an awful position to be for someone who was ten when they were moved from home. So they remember their family, he wanted to be back there with his family. He said, i dont want to be adopted because want to go home and when he was 16, he ended up back home with nathaniel because. He was staying in a foster home at that time and he recognized the neighborhood and he walked six miles to his old apartment. And nathaniel still that whole time, like held out hope that he would come back. And so and they gave him custody. So its like it the question that why was he a fit parent at age 16 after he spent six years being traumatized in an institution but he wasnt a fit parent when he was ten before he went through all of that trauma and abuse and one of the lines in the early in the book is when dante tells his cps caseworker, every time i see you, you take me away, and dante is is is dante survive . But there was a a you became involved in this story more than most journalists in a story that the reporting on but in a way that is not heavy handed or or deceiving i mean this is a its a beautifully written and reported book but you found that Law Enforcement and Child Welfare authorities didnt find about offenses the second family go into that and just talk a little about your personal involvement in in this story. Sure. So so this was about six months after the crash they that investigators did not who the second birth family was. So thats marcus and hannah and abigails family and it was particularly an issue because they had some remains of of one of who they thought might be hannah but they they actually needed her like a parents dna to actually confirm that because her siblings were half siblings. So so they really needed to find these people. But they hadnt they didnt who they were. So i, i found a name, a name in some investigative files that were released. The sheriff in washington, where they lived. So that was the family name. And and i search on facebook and i found some people that i thought might be their family. And when i reached out to them, they were their family so i got the grandma and and they did not know that kids had been murdered. So so that six months later so like, you know, in that so i ended up telling them what happened and through that it clear to me as i was reporting that, there was a lot of stuff about the way that the media was focusing on the white ladys that was essentially she kind of a version of the same thing that Jennifer Hart was doing right by acting like she saved these kids and that they came from these harrowing, abusive situations, which was a fiction, but none of the reporters were doing work of like trying to figure out actually what happened. And so. Once i had told that family, i felt that i had i had sort of entered the story. Because i had i mean, i affected the sort of way it. So at that point, i realized like i needed to be transparent about my role because. You know, when tami tammys the birth mom of marcus and and abigail and when she found out she immediately called the investigators and submitted her dna because she wanted to, you know, the right thing. And they the results and it was a confirmation that it hannah the remains they had found and they put a press release and it was Big National Story so they put out a public press release before talking. Tammy donte again, the older brother, you actually, you know, you drive with daniel, the family to to visit him when hes in prison. And this is a where a few months after after the murders and. Talk about that experience, its what this was like the summer after murder. A few months. Yeah. It was like in july. We went out. He didnt know donte . No, he didnt know. So donte had held out hope that he was going to reunite with his siblings when his siblings reached the age where they could because, you know, this happens a lot where adopt kids, when they reach 18, they will try to out their family. And so donte had held out hope that this would happen. So he was actually incarcerated. When i first met him, he he which is like theres a pipeline basically between these institutions or placements for kids and a pathway incarceration. So when he he was about to get out in october, the his like nathaniel his parents they didnt want a they dont want to jeopardize his ability to get out of prison by telling him this news they knew was going to crush him. So they didnt they decided to wait until he got out in october. And so i drove them up there and he had a he has a son. Yeah. Who was like a few months older than my son. So i drove him up to and he got to spend time, his family and he told them like while he was sitting there with them that when he got out he was going to find his siblings. And so, of course when he found out when he got out of jail, i mean, when he got out of prison he was just incredible. He devastated. Im going to open up two questions in a couple of minutes, but whats your recommended ation for changing the system . I think that i think at the very we have to remove a lot fewer kids from their homes. I think when were talking. 75 of cases involving neglect and not abuse in those cases supports for parents are the best course of action. I think that we have a really punitive attitude towards. Parents who are poor, parents who are struggling and it up being that were punishing parents also punishing the kids because foster care is a really dangerous place for children and at a really increased risk of harm when they enter the system. And so i think we need to everything that we can possibly do to keep kids out of that system and that looks like maybe focusing on punishing parents and more on supporting them and honestly, financially is in the what the Families First prevent of service. And i mean, i mean, you know from Trump Administration policy 2018 actually goes towards that it does you know they do a couple of things that that were really good they opened up because for a long time you couldnt use funding like the federal funding for preventive services. And so that basically set up an incentive to put kids into foster care in order them to get services which is obviously not a smart plan because what happens is when you get ensnared in the system, its very hard to get out of it. Once youre once youre in it, you know, youre on a path. And like in the case of sheltons court room, right, like theres a timeline, theres a federal federally mandated timeline of that you must seek termination of parental rights. A kids in foster care for 15 of the last 22 months. And so when parents are dealing with issues that arent easily solvable, like drug use instance, we dont have we have long wait lists for where they could get drug treatment. Right. But we have this timeline that says if you dont, you know, those two things are not really compatible. And there was also some progress made. The last texas legislative session with regards to the texas family code. The they made it make it make it harder terminate. Yeah made it harder to remove children their homes for neglect which is which you know people have known long known thats an issue because neglect can often look like poverty and. They made it harder to remove kids for those of reasons, unless theyre in immediate danger, which i think is a really good first step. I think actually a lot of republican in members of, the legislature that are like pretty in to this. Its an interesting sort of bedfellows situation because its of like almost the most progressive and then like very republic people and theyre agreeing that the Child Welfare system is place that we should basically like like limiting the front, like whos coming in the front door because all the problems that are so hard to solve that weve been trying like have been trying to solve these problems for decades and even before, like you know these problems have basically foundational to how the system was set up, you know, do we have any questions i read your. I cant remember one of the pieces that i was. Oh yeah. One of the pieces that i was struck with with the Davis Children was the availability of of at least one caring and concerned adult who didnt have familial or wasnt a biological parent. And i cannot remember name of the man and a parent. Daniel and you, you portrayed it really beautifully because i think he had his own story. You had some adult children. And so the Davis Children were his role with them was even more meaningful in terms of his ability to make an impact. So see a little bit more about that. I mean, that was just one of the tragedy upon tragedy upon of the story. Yeah. Nathaniel he passed away last fall, but. You know, he was a very steady and he was like one of my main. He like my contact point in much of this because he he knew that his family been wronged and he never gave up on i mean, when when they when i initially met nathaniel and they had just learned that the kids had been murdered, it was like the the grief was so immense and it was like twofold was like the grief of this extreme, like the worst thing that you could ever imagine happening. Right. And then like the the re trauma of their removal, which was so traumatic for that entire family, it really like it really caused like Health Issues for nathaniel and for aunt priscilla, who felt so and so frustrated how they were treated. You know, i i you know, the fact that dont return to nathaniel and that nathaniel was waiting for him and that dante had a has a lot of problems now and from his childhood and hes incarcerated again right now but nathaniel never gave up on dante and there were ways that like nathaniel knew how how damaged that dante had become because of what happened to him. But he never closed the door like, you know, until his i mean, he died with with that his main goal of making sure dante would be okay. Hi. Thank so much for writing about this. I was a Foster Parent of five siblings nine years ago and terribly for all parties. And i am so passionate about what youre speaking to about, not breaking up families and instead addressing the oppressive policies we have that keep families in. So thank you. When i talk about this with people, sometimes we wonder what about kids who actually dont have any loving family members and is there a better option . The Current System is just traumatic. Have you seen for kids, you know, their actually do pass away and theres not any relatives. Have you seen anything positive to look to . Yeah, thats a good question. I think that in i think that most kids actually do people who love them whether or not theyre related but that that know them like really know them already there is an Organization Called family finders and what and basically what they do they find that they take the kids that have been in Long Term Care that arent really up for adoption, kids like donte and they really put a lot of effort into researching family members far and wide. So not just the cursory like, okay, mom passed, dad passed. You know, youre youre looking at their teachers and are people in their lives that had special with them and essentially like when a is removed into foster care, theyre removed not just from their their parents but from their families and from their communities and from their schools. And so were basically taking kids, kids ability to be resilient away from them by isolating them from all of these people who care about them. Because you know, being removed, your parent, whether or not there was abuse, its traumatic and being removed from everybody the kids internalize is that theres something wrong with them instead of it being like we are failing them, making them feel like theyre alone when. Theyre not alone. Theres a theres a pitch. And i wish we didnt think of of getting it. Theres a photograph which didnt make the connection with but its a devonte wood 2014. And when you go home you can go with devonte and in the Police Officer hugging that is a viral photo vivo autograph went after the after the ferguson after acquittal of the officer in the Michael Brown as this photo of this 12 year old black boy hugging a white officer and thats devonte one of the six children and its that you know theres just talk about that photo and the symbolism of it. But it also speaks a lot to to jennifer. Yeah. And using children well and i think it speaks to this exact thing right where. Were like the media in the media has had a role in this story because of the way that we chose to report it. So in 2014, devonte at a protest he he would wear this free hug and he would help people and that something that jennifer his mom a lot of pictures of and they were sort of well known in portland for that reason so he was hugging this cop theres a theres a photo it devonte is crying theres tears streaming down his face and it it went all over it was on cnn that cnn called the hug heard around world and it was a story of race racial reconciliation thats the theme that but for but for many people who looked at photo it looked troubling because hes not smiling. Hes hes crying and the idea that we took that image and we made it viral to Say Something that, im not sure it was ever actually saying, yeah. You know, it its indicative of the same stuff that jennifer was doing, which was, you know, she was saying black lives and my black children experience racism and but she was doing the same thing, saying their birth families were you know, he was he was shooting guns when he was four years old. She said about and that he only knew cuss and just lies like things that that racist but the idea that like shes a good person shes person saving the kids if you google the photo your many of you will remember seeing it you it had that on me is in my god so you didnt you didnt speak necessarily you kind of of course it involves but the adoption. Also. This emotional for me because im im recently coming to terms with my own adoption and abandonment. I was abandoned to the state of texas and i when i got that paperwork, it was pretty hard to read. Oh, thats a really sad im thing and i come to discover that also an interracial adopt and ive asked myself how a system you know i look white right so how could a system place me my mother my biological so the story goes ran away new york and thats where she met father who was apparently contacted about me right. But how could a system place me in a white southern racist family for adoption . And thats the question asking myself a lot. And hard, because even my family who are mostly dead at this point, but i mean, the way that my brother and i also found out that information was withheld from us. And its just so much trauma around it, ongoing. And im wondering if you have any that you would like to respond to about that. Yeah, i think thats a very big part of this story is sort of the adoptee perspective that i think has been silenced in favor of the adoption narrative that. Everything is a happy ending and. Its usually almost always told from the viewpoint of the adoptive parent. So you everything from the laws like im glad that you got your documents it sounds like you got your documents yeah but its hard for adoptees to get their birth records. Theres laws in lots of states where. Theyre not entitled to their own birth certificate. And the state i had to go to a judge. Well, and its really. We tell ourselves this fiction that were doing doing this wonderful thing for kids who need to be saved. And i think its more often and we can see this in our laws because our laws really, you know, give preference to feelings of the adoptive parent. Right. They choose whether their birth family can be involved in their life. For instance, adoptees who want to know what their birth certificate says have to go through this whole torturous process. Like thats not and it shows that its set up, that the system is set up benefit certain people and weirdly, the kids arent the primary primary group that that is being benefited. So i think that this this story really showcases the sort transracial aspect of it and. The i think it showcases the racism that the birth families experience. I think really clear when you see the disparate treatment, you know, like its hard to draw any other conclusion then you know, active racism not just passive systemic racism. This is somebody that one. Thank you so much. This really important book and the way you wrote about it. And i just really appreciated the book about your connection with families and how you really like had a long term connection with them and advocacy even for them in situations like they were disempowered. And when you got into situation where you had to like go and try to get the remains back for the family, i just felt that how difficult that was and your interaction with the other side of the adoptive parents family who were demanding who were trying to keep their remains and their things. And i am interested in hearing you talk about that. Yeah. So i a the birth both birth moms in our first conversation both with both and sheri they said they they asked about the remains of the kids and if they could come back home to them but because they dont have legal rights they didnt the next of kin actually the parents of jennifer and sarah who had been estranged them since they had got together. They didnt know the children, but they were responsible for their remains. And i think so i, i, i started talking to doug whos the dad of jennifer and he wanted the birth families to have the remains and. So we i went up there to south dakota. I got some of the remains, the kids, and brought them back to their families, which was another, i think thing that you were referring to is sort of a beyond the normal of journalism. In that case, it felt really like morally important to do because i had witnessed firsthand way that the birth families were sidelined, just made it invisible in the whole, in their grief, which felt so wrong to. Me and. None of these families were in touch with each other. So i was sort the one link between these people that was talking to everyone. And so i figured if i didnt do it, then it probably happen. And so yeah, i mean, it really challenging emotionally and also i felt, i felt the weight of it as i was working on this book that i felt, you know, i had the kids with me for a couple of months, so and davonte, his body was never found was no, he was the one he was the one child that was never recovered. And part of that is because they crashed into the ocean and. The ocean has tides and all of these things happened. So that yeah. So devonte was never found. The other, the other sibling was, there was just a little bit hannah like they had found partial remains of hannah. This is one of the most essential books thats going to be published year. And thank you so very much in bi