Transcripts For CSPAN3 Public 20240705

And on behalf of the Miller Center, its a pleasure to welcome you to the special program on shining a light on the era of integration. Part of uvas 2023 Martin Luther King Community celebration cosponsored by uva lifetime learning in the office of engagement. I want to thank Alfred Reeves and Christina Lopez guitar de chao and the Miller Center team for making this event possible. For those joining us today, i do want to i want to encourage you to join our conversation by sending in your questions for our speakers via the chat function during this virtual event. The reverend dr. Martin luther jr and many civil rights activists working for social change in a more just society where motivated by a vision of beloved community, working toward a future of racial reconciliation and healing, dr. King believed and often stated that the arc of the universe bends toward justice over time. Dr. Kings vision of a more just and Equitable Society led him to oppose not only racism, but also war and poverty. Dr. Kings expansive vision of a just society is under attack by the far right today, a conservative majority on the Supreme Court is reversing the gains of the rights revolution, stripping, Voting Rights and reproductive rights, pretending an undemocratic future that looks a lot like the injustices of the past republican controlled state legislators, legislatures continue passing law, state laws, making voting more difficult, and banning teaching of history. Our history of struggles against Racial Injustice and in effect, banning any discussion of race and racism in k12 classrooms. At a moment when racial discord is being promoted by far right extremists, a growing number of whom are elected officials, hatred is spreading online with hate crimes against africanamericans and other people of color. , muslims and lgbtq people on the increase, it is important to revisit a time not long ago when Many Americans shared dr. Kings dream of a more just equitable future and sacra faced to make that dream a reality in todays program, shining a light on the era of integration, we have the privilege of hearing from two members of the generation that came of age during the Civil Rights Movement who will tell us their personal stories is High School Students on long island. In the early 1970s, late 1960s and early 1970s. They will reflect on the history that they werent taught in high school of systemic racism on long island and in jackson, mississippi. They will also share their perspectives on the current controversy over state supported attempts to censor books and classroom instruction on dealing with race and sex discrimination then and now. Ill introduce our speakers today. Pamela banks is a licensed clinical psychologist and professor and chair of the department of psychology at Jackson State University in jackson, mississippi. She was instrumental in establishing the American Psychological association accredited ph. D. Program in Clinical Psychology at jackson state in 1995. She received received her b. A. From Antioch College and her masters in social work. Her m. A. And ph. D. In Clinical Psychology from the university of southern mississippi. She is how two gubernatorial appointments to the mississippi board of psychology and chairmanship positions on committees in the mississippi psychological association. The Mississippi Academy of sciences and south, the southeastern psychological association. And were also joined by Jill Lawrence. Joe lawrence is an Award Winning journalist and author of the art of the political deal how Congress Beat the odds and broke through gridlock. Lawrence is a columnist for usa today and other publications. Previously, she was commentary editor and Editorial Board member at usa today managing for politics at national journal. National Political Correspondent at usa today and National Political writer at the associated press. She serves the board of the nonprofit philosophy, learning and Teaching Organization plato, promoting k12 philosophy and ethics, education to foster curiosity, Critical Thinking and respect for discussion. Jill lawrence recently published an opinion article in usa today, which links the current culture wars over the teaching of americas history of racial oppression, with the story dr. Banks, leaving her home in mississippi at the age 15 to attend lawrences face, as she put it in the article blindingly White High School in syosset, long island, during the late 1960s. Dr. Banks, Jill Lawrence, thank you for being with us today. So my first question is for dr. Banks. Could you take us back to the moment when you and your family in jackson, mississippi, in the late 1960s were discussing the idea of your leaving to attend high school in the north, in syosset, long island, in what was supposed to be an Exchange Program . How did you and your parents arrive at the decision for you to leave home . And tell us about your experiences being one of only four African American students in a Large High School that, like syosset, was almost entirely white. It must have been difficult first. How did you get through that first year in such an unfamiliar environment . Welcome. And thats thats a lot of information that i will try to give you in very brief period of time. Of all back in 1968, my guidance counselor at my high school and a member from the community were aware of a Program Sponsored by the National Urban league. And this program was called student transfer educational program. However, when they came to talk to us, it to talk to my parents about it, our impression and understanding that it was going to be an exchange, but that wasnt very significant. And we knew that in late 1960s it would be rare for someone to take up their their their experience in one part of the country and bring them down to the deep south in that particular era. So that wasnt going to we we that probably wasnt going to happen. But the the deciding factor related to two events, one, two years prior, the same guidance counselor had us some standardized test and many students who were high. My first cousin scored very high and he actually part of a program called the better chance. Im sure people have heard of, the better chance. And he went off to prep school to vermont academy, the saxons waivers. Lamont i also the same offer, but my parents hesitated and was just 13. And i am. I was one girl in the family and i have one brother. So my mother was reluctant. But when the opportunity came a second time to to get involved in education experiences, that would really probably take me to another level compared to what i might be exposed to at my home high school. My parents kind of we sat and talked and of course my parents are spiritual and work, spiritual individuals. They prayed and talked to me. They always thought had a pretty level head. I was a high achieving student. And so when they talked about it and my input, they decided to make the sacrifice of letting their only girl leave all the equities familiar and near and dear to them and go off to a foreign place. Id always been in a segregated school, had very little contact with white people. Very very little. I didnt know anybody who was white. We met the pearl stains, jane and jim perlstein, a family who became my host family. And we met them only through telephone, no zoom back in 1968. And no and no skyping face timing. And so but my mother and dad, like the sound of jane and jim. Jane and jim hit two, three sons and my daddy, youre going to go live with family, with three boys. But once they found out how the family had values very similar to our parents, to my very high on education, very high on discipline, very high on fine and for my family, very high. And spirituality. And so my mother actually went with me. Syosset first time she met the pearl stains and my first time flying, i was 15 and we arrived and it was very pleasant, very loving, very welcoming. And jane was such a strong advocate for for human rights and for diverse ity and, and equality. Even in 1968, in an all white environ. My mother left there feeling very comfortable leaving her daughter with this family and all for the purpose of improvement and betterment and opportunity. I now granted they were opportunities and there was there people in from jacksons decision were in the Public School system there and they did just fine and theyve become national figures, made great contributions. We know what the future hill for me at that time. My parents just wanted to make sure they had they allowed me to flourish, me to grow, to to expand my experiences and apply my talent. And so they were willing to that sacrifice. What was it like to, in an all white environment, again im 15, i and leaving whats very important, a 15 year old from parties and we start backyard parties, you know, you just just those things were very important. And here i get to syosset and there are no people like me. There was one other student in the step who lived a block away with a family and student became, of course, my friend and for a long time we kept in contact, but not not in the last 20 years. I think i got through being in syosset with the help of my very loving family and friends back in mississippi. People thought that was a great thing a little boy across the street. There was a little article published when i came home once and he said, Pamela Gibson is to town. He had a little newspaper here with my picture in it. And so that was kind of people were very happy that i was away and doing well. So that support from mississippi helped me, but also prayer and the very supportive family of the perlstein because. I was accepted as a member of the family and as i said in that article that jill wrote people thought i was some people thought i was the may, but i was not. I was a member. The family, jane and jim had three sons and i was the daughter. And even at her Memorial Service a few back, that was my my testimony to the family that i was janes daughter. And there people there who kind of said you were who because they they may have maybe didnt know, didnt understand, but i was very much accepted in that family and stayed in contact with jane until she passed away. Its its really its fascinating to me that you not only had the support of of the perlstein, the host family that you stayed with, but you also had the support of your own community, jackson, mississippi, that you were going away. It seemed that they were very of you and that you were representing them well. Yes. Yes. And when wed come home, they would be parties for me at a community center. And that that way i got to see all the people from my high school. I miss those people. Id gone to school with them, some from first grade on. And so it was a it was always a good time to come home. My mother, with a big everything that i like, she prepared. They encouraged me because they knew that i was stepping out into a territory that was unknown to them. They experienced it, but we kind of took a leap of faith as people in us. And in terms of my friends, there were many people were very friendly toward me. I dont remember any hostility inside. I said, just remember just not being in in a particular circle or. I might not have been invited to something. John and john, same was my thing at my age. And so i oftentimes the trail along with him and jane, they threw a big party for me in syosset. I was i was decorated as a gift box, a gift to syosset. And in in a sense, i was also going to help them grow and be exposed to someone who was culturally different. And that was some people like that, people like jill probably like seeing some Something Different in their community. And so i think i did well terms of my interactions. My biggest obstacle was, finding a church for worship services. And so i first attended an all white church in syosset and it wasnt just what i was accustomed to so jane and jim started searching and there was a church in oyster bay that i attended for a while, and then i ended up in a church back near old, as i recall, and they made sure i got the church as my parents were were active in our church. They were leaders in our church. And that was a big part of who i was and so my in worship helped sustain me because it was very lonely. I would walk. I think i said this before to jill. I would walk through the through the woods to the major thoroughfare just to see cars that might have black people in it, because i wasnt seeing black people and around any. So again, im 50. I turned 16 within two months of arriving in syosset. And so i was for the 11th and 12th grade and graduate in the year 1970, which was just a while ago. Hi i remember 1970. Well yeah so well thank you for that. That was that was really wonderful and very, very revealing. And i, i want to turn now to to Jill Lawrence for your remembrance of those times. You know, its its really striking that that you recently connected with dr. Banks in reporting your article, but apparently you didnt know each other well you two were were at high school and and when you read the article, you really you know, i appreciate that you dont let yourself off the hook in writing about your own naivety about racism, growing up in white, suburban syosset. You describe yourself, quote, white, privileged and oblivious. So what it like to witness the southern Civil Rights Movement from that that place the overwhelmingly white suburb of syosset. Well, i think the operative word there is oblivious. I was young when the Civil Rights Movement in the south. I was, you know, eight, nine, ten, 11 years old in elementary school. And given that there was virtually no black population in syosset, that, you know, there was it was just a totally different culture. And it you know, when i old enough to be political, which was not very old about 12, it was the vietnam war that had everyones attention. And a couple of years later, it was feminism. So i remember, at the time that we were in high school, we shut down the school over the war to protest the vietnam war, marched around the school. We obviously must had the acquiescence of the administration. But, you know, this is this is what were concerned about. And i know i worked at an arts camp on the north shore of long island, which is very affluent and and one of the senior counselors there told me, you must read sisterhood is powerful. You know, i would have been maybe 16. And so i read it. And feminism was a huge deal, even to the point that in high school, one of my big campaigns was for girls to be allowed to wear pants. They wouldnt let us wear pants even when it snowed. So. So mean. Those were the those were the times and that was the place. And you its ironic, but when i started researching this piece, a librarian at sales at library whos a historian, a local historian, showed me a present version that he and someone else had done for the 50th anniversary of the fair housing act. And it had a lot what i missed, you know, it had local, local newspaper articles about. In 1963, a young man from the area went to the march on washington and. He remembered one of the speeches and. No, it was not Martin Luther kings speech. It was the speech by a labor. You know, it was it was a whole different experience. Then there was another young man who went down to work at a Freedom School and in 1964, and he was working. He got there 66 days after the three civil rights workers were killed. Philadelphia and the school he worked at was 30 miles from where that happens. So, you know, all this is going on. And of course, knew nothing about it. I was trying to get through three years of high school and two years, which and i you know, i him and marianne, the other black exchange student, were pretty noticeable said. I told pamela that remembered them and she laughed and said, couldnt miss us. And that was actually true. But i didnt actually reconnect her until until now, in the midst of of wondering why we didnt know anything about where we lived. It was a huge shock to find out that the klan was operating on long island even while we were in high school, it was still there. You know, it was a pillar of community in the twenties, thirties, forties, fifties. It it got, it had alliances with Estate Developers and and with banks and with firehouses and local government and schools. It was just astonishing to learn these things so belatedly and later in my piece i quote the current superintendent as and is telling everyone he had heard from so many graduates so alarms that they wish theyd learn more. So i think, you know, when i finally reconnected with pam you can tell from what she just told us why i was in tears through half of that interview. And i was having technical problems at that point. So could see her, but she couldnt see me. But i was just, you know, tears rolling down my cheeks. She was talking about leaving all she knew and her mothers tears, the tears and the difficulty of, you know, letting a 15 year old go someplace. So different, you know. So foreign really, to where she grown up. And i just thought you know, this still story is so compelling. And what she did was so brave. But maybe this is a way in to to this whole controversy these days that people who wouldnt ordinarily read about it or over their minds to different points of view might actually see what were talking about here, because we didnt know what was going on. I didnt know and i didnt ask and. We werent taught. And i think, you know, pam can speak to this, but i think the same was true of her. We were both teenagers and everyone knows that teenagers are you know, theyre worried about their hair actually hasnt changed at all. And, you know, and theyre allowed to wear school. Yeah. I mean, i think the time that that you were in high together in syosset, there, the changes that we take for granted today in terms of, you know, who we think of as important historical figures or important art writers in american literature, you know those changes had not taken place yet. And so your teachers probably had very little and struction in africanamerican or the history of of of racial oppression. They probably hadnt exposed to African American writers. And and, you know, the the american sort of cultural mainstream was was was pretty white and very integrated. And i that probably goes a long way to explain the nature of your education in which black as historical actors as leaders in American History and harbingers of change. You know black people were invisible in in your instruction. So you know its, its really fascinating that there are efforts now to reverse that process and to you know you hear a lot about holocaust deniers. But i think what were seeing now are a group of people, really a vocal minority, who are, i guess, slavery deniers. They just want to completely whitewash American History. And thats just its its kind of a chilling trend that we that we certainly should challenge and and speak out against. So turning back to dr. Banks, you mentioned the difficulty and sacrifice of going north and living in this white community. You had the support of your host family. You know, it was kind of isolating and it was it was difficult. Could you just reflect on that experience and and tell us how that experience, how the Civil Rights Movement and and also your experiences at Antioch College influenced your chosen career path and your personal and professional goals and your decision to to live work in the south. So i guess im asking what difference did the Civil Rights Movement and the freedom struggle have of africanamericans in mississippi as well make in the choices that you made on how to live your life . Okay. Okay. Well, first of all, my coop experiences at Antioch College actually exposed me to individuals who were truly struggling because of Racial Discrimination and because of a lack of opportunity, unequal opportunity, and at antioch, i. Had four coop jobs, at least four and one one was in saint louis, missouri, counseling headstart mothers. Another was in brooklyn at work with school for boys. Another one lost virginias juvenile facility. So you can see i gravitated toward Human Services in terms of my experiences. But my final two were in mississippi. We one was in the cdbg arm, which a head start program, and we worked with families in mississippi delta. And we saw we saw loss, we saw racism and discrimination. My final, final coop job was with the Lawyers Committee for civil rights under the law and is there where. I saw the legal and the need to have people who could read and, write and engage in critical and be devoted and compassionate and passionate about equal rights. And so that exposure year really helped me see that. You know they say to whom much is given much is required, then i needed to make sure that i returned home to help out with this struggle. I, as a child, growing and like i said, i was in a segregated school, do remember segregated water fountains. I remember our zoo closing. I remember not being able to sit on the park bench. I remember that. And to this day in jail. Dont cry. I do not know how to swim because the public pools were closed because they did not want to have blacks and whites swimming in the pool. The pools were integrated. And so thats one of the major reasons i dont swim today. I do have a pool, but i do not. And so we just saw so many i saw so many things that helped me make the the determination that i want to become someone would make a difference. And i my that my parents values as well as my values were to to use my talents to help life help someone elses life be better. And again, my parents wanted me to succeed. They wanted me to to get a College Education. My dad had a sixth grade education. My mother had a high school education. And that was just a very determined worker and very productive. Be that Educational Opportunities he would have been become a professional probably engineer if he could just figure out anything without. Instructions. My mother was a good businessman and she was she wrote down grocery list list of our gifts. But then a list of of of things that had to happen in her shop. She was a beautician and she would see became she met her sister, became leaders in their state office. So i had role models who knew how to organize, who knew how to be disturbed, and who knew how to, interact with people and how to how to lead. So and both of them, both my mother and my 96 year old aunt were, very pro civil rights. Now, neither one of them were civil rights activist, but both were in organizations that promoted civil rights. And so i saw their actions and wanted to follow in their footsteps. And in in some ways, and again, the decision to come back home was i saw that and i see it even today. The drain on the state of mississippi and i just feel that we have to do things in our state that would curb that for sure. And some things are being done. Our daughter has returned to mississippi after 12 years because she, too wants to be in this state trying to make a difference. You yeah, thats thats just amazing that, you know, you you quite a sacrifice in leaving home but parents also made a sacrifice and i that probably goes for a whole generation of africanamerican fans in the the civil rights who came of age under you know, this system this humiliating system of jim crow and you know, were just trying to get that and to support their children so that they could you know, be the best that, you know, that they could be and achieve their dreams. And it seems like your parents were certainly part of that that generation of struggle, sacrifice and i think were all the beneficiary for that. Jill and your article, you talk about your College Education and decision to to pursue a career in journalism and you also go to talk about history that that wasnt just that simply wasnt taught in those days. The system, the history and youve mentioned it a little earlier, systemic racism and white supremacy. And in new york in long island and really, you know, nationally, that was just part of the conversation. Youre living in an all white black people. The what exceptions that you mentioned of of people, your town who got involved in the rights movement. But, you know, theres just a lot of innocent sort of blindness to to these issues and could you talk a little bit more about you know not only your your college and your sort of coming of age and becoming sort of more aware of these these of issues, but but also some of the aspects, the history of new york and island, you know, a lot of people and when im teaching u. S. History and i mentioned that there was slavery in the northern colonies and northern states and the legacy of slavery last, it well into the 19th century in places like rhode island and, of course, the state of new york students are shocked. So if you could talk a little bit about, you know, some of the things that you found out about your own history locally. And in new york, i think that would be really, really fascinating. You know, i mean one of the things that i i want to draw a parallel with is i went into journalism as a person the same way pamela went back down south. But cause was womens rights. And i remember consciously thinking i will try to change this system from and writing articles about when the pennsylvania was trying to fix the Car Insurance system because women were better drivers for paying higher rates for you for insurance and so i mean it was the same thing, but it was parallel and, you know, there just no awareness as i could tell you about the erie canal, which we learned all about in new york state history in fourth grade. But i did not know until i started researching piece that that in colonial times long island had, the highest concentration of enslaved people, the north and even after slavery ended. And you know one thing just became succeeded by another both very difficult in terms of race and the federal government and local were all complicit in this system of residential segregation to this day. So asked that new york has hardly any black people point 8 and it has. 29 Asian American so certain places become for people but since it did not have its first black resident until 1964 and it was a huge production, i didnt get into it too much in my piece. But first there were first there were protests for people who didnt want this Family Moving and then there were protests from civil rights activists who insisted on having the black family complete the sale and eventually that was the side that prevailed. And then what happened . Basically nothing. A black family moved to town and nothing happened. They found serenity. According to one newspaper article. So but but it really spread into and that is the case for so many places just on long island and in new york. But the whole country and and its hard to believe when you read history now that the federal government was trying to make sure that black families could not move to areas where the schools good or, you know, where houses were nicer and they couldnt mortgages that was redlining and and then you read investigations of the last few that all of this is still going that realtors captured by secret cameras are steering people to certain kinds of neighborhoods on their race. You know that there are that appraisers others are appraising value at houses, that they know theyre owned by a black family. You know, in fact, the governor of new york, kathy hochul, just signed a bunch of laws trying to get rid of this. And the Biden Administration has also done some in these areas, but it just continues and continues. And generally issues of wealth and generations of education have been denied. And one of the one of the things that was so i actually called pamela at this point, i was finding art for the story and the pictures of the klan, you know, in full regalia. But no, no hoods. They were showing their they were pillars of the community. Those pictures, a picture of a slave cabin on long island just this these pictures were were powerful that i kind of suddenly realized the significance of what i was trying to say in this piece and called her and said beware, you know, the pictures are just astonishing. And to think that we didnt know this was happening fact there was a photograph we used of a klan member in 2016 on eastern long island, the date on the picture was november 22nd, 2016, and this was a hooded person. And what i didnt include in what i wrote was the caption from, but i was just francepresse photographer for he said, the man told that theyd had Something Like a thousand requests to join in in the couple of weeks donald trump had won the election. So there was a surge of interest and the rest is history that were still living in it. Absolutely. I mean, i think a lot of those listening think of the ku klux klan as a secret Domestic Terror Organization that rampaged in the south after the emancipation and during reconstruction. But, jill, youre talking about the revival of the klan as a National Organization and and an organization that was was open and and members of the klan were known to the public. Members of the klan actually ran for Political Office in states like indiana and michigan. And perhaps new york as well. And so this is the revival of the klan. And there are photos of a klan parade of, you know, just sort of, you know, masses of klan members and their full regalia, their hoods and robes, marching through washington, dc in the 1920s. And of course, the klan, you know, that sort of revival of the klan decline. And due to political scandal and, you know, i guess during world war two, we were trying to sort of pull together the nation was fighting for the survival of democracy against a dictatorship, you know, nazi dictatorship that was predicated on aryan supremacy. So there was kind of an antiracist thrust to the fight, but as we all know, the klan has persisted in the south, in the person of someone like duke, who was continues to be a factor in our politics, that kind of white supremacist extreme ism is one factor. Yeah, i mean, one thing i often wonder is if panels had known that this was still happening in the north, would they have let her go . You know, there are letters the klan about sponsoring firehouse events, about trying to influence school boards, you know, letters, the documents about their connections with the financial industry and the powerbrokers are wrong. And you just have to wonder. You know, what . If we had known . Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, and you know, the other point i want to underscore, jill, is your point about the role of the federal government and local governments in sort of maintaining housing segregation. And scholars of the Civil Rights Movement used to talk about segregation in the south, you know, that it was legally it was state sanctioned segregation. They called it de jure segregation by law and then they used to talk about segregation in the north as facto segregation that you know, giving the impression that it just sort of happened. It just sort of evolved and that there was no sort of legal or, political series of events that caused that. But you know what youre saying is that, you know, segregation housing segregation in the north was really the product of of national policy. The sort of the federal home loan policy denied home loan support to africanamericans. Of course, the banks and the Real Estate Industry made sure that black people, regardless of their income, could not live where they where they wanted to. Right. And we cant forget the covenants you had to sign things when you rent or leased houses in levittown and all across the country, it spread like wildfire. Only a white person could occupy that house unless the black person was a servant. Then, if was a domestic servant, they could live in your house. Thats right. You know, i just want to send out another word to those joining us. Please send your questions and add your voice to the discussion that having. We look forward to hearing those those questions. Let me turn back to dr. Banks. Tell us about Work Experience as a psychologist including the time that you did clinical practice and youre also a professor at jackson state. Chairing an academic department. How do you how do you bring your Life Experiences to bear on your conversations with students. You know, youre teaching and advising them. Okay. Well, a couple of things. I chose psychology for, several reasons. One reason being, i guess i never thought of myself as a frontiers person, but most people that i was exposed to were in the teaching profession and i wanted to move go in a direction different from from teach. Being a school teacher. And so psychology was. One area of study that fascinated me greatly. And i took really saw that two things there were there were fewer people of color in Clinical Psychology just again, going in a direction im the lone person. This was back in the early eighties. So there were a few of clinical psychologist who were people of color. There were tremendous health needs that were offered, ignored to traditional psychology may not have understood the cultural considerations that are a net imperative in having a personal relationship between a client and the therapist. I saw Mental Health needs beyond just people in the black community. I saw Mental Health needs. Is related to emotional and psycho logical and cognitive disturbance in lots of people in just how they manage their Interpersonal Affairs and how they made decisions and how they were. Taking on leadership positions with rather whom they were. But their faults were very, very primitive and very discriminatory. And so i felt that by being exposed, kind of related to the social psych literature, having exposure and interactions with people of color as a psychologist might help break down some barriers. I have been at Jackson State University for a very long time as a professor and with my students. Ive told them about my syosset story and the take home message to them is to your horizons to expand your Knowledge Base to to go in directions and do pathways that might be somewhat uncomfortable. But dont just sit down on the steps and complain. And one just because you find it kind of hard or because will be too challenging one for the challenge and not just for self, but for a full benefits that you may have in in helping others. I guess i was, i was really driven by the need to remedy problems. Come up with solutions, be a part of the solutions and not certainly definitely not be part of the problem at Jackson State University part of my bio. You with our apa accredited Clinical Psychology ph. D. Program. We happen to one of two hbcu in the country with the accredited clinical psych ph. D. Program and because of that we have added to and accomplished our goal of increasing the number of underrepresented minorities in field of psychology. So we have a number of clinical licensed Clinical Psychology who have come through our program, and were very proud of that. So again, that was part of my mission to to help wherever there is some some needs, Mental Health needs, needs for underrepresented populations to become more represented. I wanted to channel my efforts and interest in trying to make make a difference once again in that regard. And thats thats fascinating that thats thats wonderful and. You know, given the fact that a lot of the the issues of of access to education and you know and our and and just the struggles emotional of living in a segregated society are are still very much with us your work the work of your students whove gone on to professional practices is so important. Jill in addition to your work as a journalist youre active in a National Organization that supports k12 education and seeks to to foster ethical awareness, curious city Critical Thinking and discussion. Whats response to the furor the moral panic over teaching race and and you know, an honest accounting of american past in classrooms. You know as youve written. Conservative politicians and wellfunded are saying that socalled old Critical Race Theory harms white students, making them feel guilty about slavery and racism. So whats your response to that . How do you explain this happening . I mean, ive been teaching at the university and sometimes, you know, doing a lot of work with high schools in trying to make sure that their curricula in American History are updated in terms of and adequate representation of africanAmerican History. So ive been doing this this work for years. Ive never heard any kind of pushback. Like what . Like the sort that were getting today. So if you could just talk about how youre thinking about these issues. Well, i should start by saying that just yesterday i read an article from National Review that. Governor ron desantis in florida has rejected a new advance course on africanAmerican History. And i cant, you know, speak to whats in the course. I dont know whats in it. He basically said it has no justification and it was it was socialism. You know, its in a way, its too bad we have political campaigns to interrupt the work of governing. But thats just a symptom, a very recent symptom of things going wrong. I do a lot of delving into polling to see what was going on with actual americans and a lot most people wish they knew more. And theres huge support for history. Theres less support for teaching on current impacts below high school. But there is a majority for teaching all of that in high school. So theres theres a huge majority for teaching the history to to younger kids. I wouldnt say young kids, but certainly by high school, certainly by high school. And you know why not show people the actual of confederation and, you know, of secession . Im sorry, you know why these states were saying they seceded and they all said it was over. You know, they wanted to keep slavery was mentioned in every in most of them, not all of them. Its very clear was going on. Why not do that . I dont think too many people have objections to that. But the fact is that this history is still being taught, much less the continuing the erased Racism Organization in new york. The most recent president. Shes now president emerita. But she mentioned to me that they they used to give 20 minute workshops to educators and they covered 400 years. And at the end people were saying, well, i learned a lot of new things. Now that is educators in that that is really astonishing to me unacceptable. I think after the george floyd murder, there was a lot of excitement in the Education Community and there were curriculum discussions and and people there was going to be a lot of progress. And then there came a huge amount of pushback, you know, trying to influence curriculum, exclude things from curriculum, not just about race, but about race, gender, sexual orientation, everything. And so were in the thick of a political war about about things that be factual. And i dont think we can fix things. We confront them. But i think one of the people whos doing a really good job of helping this along is our new supreme justice turns from jackson. What she said at the arguments over affirmative action. One of the hypotheticals she used just kind of hit me in the gut about the person whos lived in North Carolina. His family been there for five generations. You know, many of the generations have gone to that school and he wants to honor his familys legacy, go to the university of North Carolina. And then she said, but then there was a black person who also his family has been in North Carolina for five generations. And but they couldnt go to the university of North Carolina because of slavery and and all the rest. And he wants to honor his familys legacy and go to the university of North Carolina. I mean, you could do the same analogy with someone. Family is white and funds the university and has a ton of money to give away and there might be some black families with money to give away. But as a rule, you know the they probably dont have as much or any. And so you know thats just one example that the American Public might now start hearing as as we move more people into all walks of life. And we have people, the highest levels who can really speak personally to this experience. And so im very hopeful about that. And i, i just that people understood and maybe this is very pollyannish, but if people understood what happening, that they would say, oh, of course, weve got to fix that. I mean, the jackson water system could speak to this decades centuries of neglect stories coming out. No one knew about. I bruces beach on the beach in Southern California that was taken 100 years ago from its black owners because they were black. And then in the last year or two returned to the descendants and the descendants are about to sell back to l. A. County for 20 million. About the tulsa race massacre. I mean, thats thats another one that, you know, 150 years ago. Its not 100 years ago, the 100th anniversary, people first found out about it or made that that an entire affluent black community was wiped out by white rioters. And at least 300 people were killed. So these stories that hardly anyone knows and as i mentioned in the piece, took nearly 400 years from the arrival of the first enslaved people to get a museum of history. So, you know, we have a lot of confronting and fixing do. And i just i feel like if people could draw that line better that that it would it would really help us come to some understanding of what needs to be done. But the responses to the piece, i mean, there are people who know from their lived experience whats been happening, but theyre constrained by state laws and and executive orders from from talking it. Yeah. You know jill, all those things, all those events that you mentioned and and many more we should never forget that those events happened. And our role as educators to always explain how and why they happened. And i think that thats really important for as a democracy going forward. Wouldnt you know that as our our time is drawing to an end, the are pouring in. So i have question for both of you and this is from someone who one of our audience who is curious to know what kind of feedback and response both you, jill, and dr. Banks have had to the and there are more questions, but we could just begin with that one. Well, many of my friends have seen the article and and they they say, oh, we never knew that about you. And its funny because i didnt, i guess, have a need to share with them as much as with students because not about me. Its about trying to help people understand that you can make a difference. You can improve your life, you can you can expand and grow. And so thats ive conveyed that to students, but not to my friends. They all the oh, thats this you will always frontiers person. And i said well in in most southern way they would a why i dont know what theyre getting at there i guess because im very very manageable and courteous and polite. Yeah thats thats true. She is. And i mean, as a journalist, youre taught you should be the story. And i know that pam doesnt feel she should be the story, but i think both of us decided, that our experiences were worth sharing in this instance. And i got lot of feedback from people i know from long island, from different towns, you know, people i didnt know when i was a kid who say that you know, it wasnt that her parents were prejudiced or anything. It was just nobody had any choices back then in the fifties and you just bought your house and then and then you know whats going on here. If they even asked those. But you a lot of people a lot of people are very regretful that they know more. But the what i got it i got from people were telling their own situation being different for instance, someone from San Francisco whose school was very mixed and someone from the south, an older doctor who talked about his career and how hoped he wasnt racist and, that my piece would help him realize he was inadvertently being so and, you know, some very heartfelt responses from from people and, you know, its important that to know that this was not every experience. But, boy, it sure seems like, you know, places like texas, big school district, School Districts all over the country, that the same sort of thing was happening, residential segregation and exposure. And that was my kind of overriding sense of the response as. Well. We are drawing close to end of our time, and weve had a wonderful and stimulating conversation and trying to shine a light. The era of integration, which also means dealing with our history in the United States and the history, racial oppression, honestly and and so this is a wonderful conversation feel that were only just sort of hitting our stride as as the time is running out. So i want to thank you both joe lawrence and dr. Pamela banks for joining us for this Important Program as a celebration of the holiday in honor of dr. Martin luther king jr. Thank you and thanks tomy my na, head of archives here at the institute. And i want to welcome all you to tonights event event as we commemorate