Transcripts For CSPAN3 First Ladies Influence And Image 20151024

Conversations with experts, tors of historical sites, and questions from cspans audience, we tell the stories of the first ladies. Now, Lady Bird Johnson. This is about two hours. Lady bird johnson a beautification to my mind is far more than a matter of cosmetics. To me, it describes the whole effort to bring the Natural World and the manmade world into harmony. To bring order, usefulness, delight to our whole environment. That, of course, only begins with trees, flowers, and landscaping. Susan swain thats from a film created by the Johnson Administration with Lady Bird Johnson talking about beautification, her signature issue as first lady. She was a natural campaigner, successful businesswoman, and a savvy political partner to her husband, our 36th president , Lyndon Baines johnson. Good evening, and welcome to cspans first ladies influence and image. Tonight well tell you the story of Claudia Taylor johnson, known to everyone as lady bird, the wife of our 36th president. Here to tell our story tonight are two guests, Cokie Roberts, political commentator for abc news and npr. Shes also the author of two books about womens political history, founding mothers and ladies of liberty. Thanks for being here. Cokie roberts good to be here. Susan swain Betty Boyd Caroli is a first ladies expert. She is the author of numerous books, including first ladies from Martha Washington to Michelle Obama, and shes currently working on a new biography of Lady Bird Johnson. Ladies, id want to start with the beginning, with where we were 50 years ago this week. This is an administration birthed in natural tragedy. What were the immediate challenges for the brandnew first couple on those first terrible days after the assassination of kennedy . Cokie roberts well, theyre enormous. First of all, nobody knew whether there was a widespread plot, and so the country was in terror for a period of time. And then they had to be both taking over and, i mean, making sure that there was a peaceful transition to power without seeming to take over, because of the image of pushing the other the kennedys out of the way, any of that, so they had to be very, very careful in how they handled it. And Lyndon Johnson was very lucky that he had lady bird to help him with that, because she has a good ear for knowing exactly what to say and when to say it. Susan swain and in particular, what did she do during those first weeks. Betty boyd caroli well, she said she felt like she was on stage for a part that shed never rehearsed. But, in fact, i think it would be hard to find a first lady better prepared than she was. And she immediately started taking notes. You know, we have her shorthand notes while she was still waiting to hear whether president kennedy had died. And on the way back, on the plane, she started making plans for putting her Radio Station into some sort of Cokie Roberts trust. Betty boyd caroli blind trust so that they would not be accused of profiting from it. So she really took over very fast. I mean, she was a good study. Susan swain id like to just play off of that idea of her taking notes, because this was an administration, which documented itself extensively. There was a daily diary that she recorded of herself. There were also the Lyndon Johnson phone tapes, which many people Cokie Roberts which are fabulous. Susan swain and who love political history are aware of. And then there was also a naval Television Crew that followed the first couple around and documented. Is this new to this administration . Or had this been going on for a while with president s . Betty boyd caroli i think the amount of documentation is new. She didnt record every day, because some days were just too full, but she had a little recording machine. And on days that were too busy, she would stuff brown envelopes with menus or lists of people she had seen. And then she would get an hour or so some day and she would sit down and record. So those recordings are still being transcribed. Theyre wonderful. I mean, her white house diary, which people may have read, is, i think, 800 pages, but thats only an eighth of what she has on those tapes. So were waiting for the rest of it to come out. Cokie roberts i mean, there were before these recordings, of course. We have some kennedy recordings; we have some roosevelt recordings. And Louisa Catherine adams, John Quincy Adams wife, wrote when she was first lady the autobiography of a nobody, which tells you something about her state of mind at the time. But so there was i think that most first couples have an awareness of the magnitude of the job. But Lady Bird Johnson had such a sense of history that she understood. She said she dared herself to keep a diary. And she understood that that was something special. Susan swain well, in fact, throughout this program, we will see some of the video from the naval crew that followed the couple around to document their days in the white house, and here are some of the clips. Were going to start with one of those. This is Lady Bird Johnson on november 22, 1963, recording that first tragic day that brought them into the white house. [video clip] Lady Bird Johnson mrs. Kennedys dress was stained with blood. One leg was almost entirely covered with it. And her right glove was caked that immaculate woman it was caked with blood, her husbands blood. She always wore gloves, like she was used to them. I never could. And that was somehow one of the most poignant sights, exquisitely dressed and caked in blood. I asked her if i couldnt get somebody to come in to help her change, and she says, oh, no, thats all right. Perhaps later ill ask for mary gallagher, but not right now. And then was something if with a person that gentle, that dignified, you can say had an element of fierceness, she said, i want them to see what they have done to jack. It was decided that he should be sworn in there in dallas as quickly as possible. And there, in the very narrow confines of the plane, with jackie on his left, her hair falling in her eyes, but very composed, and then lyndon, and than i was on his right, judge hughes with a bible in front of him, and a cluster of secret Service People and congressmen wed known a long time, lyndon took the oath of office. Susan swain what are you hearing there that people should understand about Lady Bird Johnson . Betty boyd caroli well, shes very specific. I had really forgotten how she gets so many details. And her description of that, but also before that, when she talks about walking into the hospital, and the kennedy car was still there, and she saw this bundle of pink blossoms and the blood around it, i mean, shes a very astute observer. Wonderful. Cokie roberts shes also a wonderful writer. Betty boyd caroli yes. Cokie roberts and shes aware of that. She writes intentionally. But shes clearly i mean, shes also clearly upset in that recording. You can hear it. And shes trying to both describe the situation, but at the same time, give homage to Jacqueline Kennedy, you know, this very meticulous woman, caked in blood, all of that to, you know, say shes trying to tell you what was happening, but not to, in some ways, sort of sensationalize it. Susan swain and for her following in mrs. Kennedys footsteps, Cokie Roberts referred to that this sort of delicate dance of being respectful, but needing to take control. What was the two womens relationship like . Betty boyd caroli well, Lady Bird Johnson, many people said you must be this is a daunting act to follow. And she said, well, feel sorry for mrs. Kennedy, not for me, because i still have my husband. And i think she made a special effort not to imitate in any way some of the projects that she considered, for example, beautifying the mall. Lyndon johnson had advised her not to do that, because the kennedys had done something similar. But she was an amazing she was amazingly absent. She didnt have envy of anybody. She seemed to consider the kennedys a different generation. And i find her amazing in that regard, that she knew that Jacqueline Kennedy was extremely popular, and yet she knew that she had a lot to offer, too. Cokie roberts and she had filled in for Jackie Kennedy a lot. Betty boyd caroli many times. Cokie roberts i mean, thats something you have to keep in mind. There were lots of times that mrs. Kennedy was she was pregnant, she lost a baby, she wasnt well a lot of times a lot of things she didnt want to do. And mrs. Johnson filled in, so she knew the role well. And she was a quintessential washington political wife. She had been on this scene since the 1930s, and she really knew it well, and she had a cadre of other political wives who were just extraordinary women, and they all gathered around her, and that made that also made that transition somewhat easier. Susan swain we should say at the outset, among those women who gathered around was your own mother. Cokie roberts right. Susan swain can you talk about the friendship between your parents and the johnsons . Cokie roberts well, my father was first elected to congress in 1940. He was 26, and my mother was 24, think of it. And in that that was, of course, before world war ii. And so still the rules were still there of calling, so you had to go calling, and that was, you know, the Supreme Court on monday, the cabinet on tuesday im making up the days, but, you know, the senate on wednesday, like that. And there was my mother, this 24yearold girl, except people were older then than they are now, and so her first day of having to go calling, and the horn honks outside, and she goes running down, and its Lady Bird Johnson and pauline gore, al gores mother, and they took her calling that first day. And the friendship has been very, very warm ever since, to the point, all through their husbands political lives, but then and then when they both became widows, they traveled together and had a wonderful time together. Susan swain were going to step back in time and learn more about the biography of the woman who became first lady on november 22, 1963. But before we do that, a reminder about your involvement. These programs are interesting because of your questions, and we hope youll join in tonight. Three ways you can do it. You can tweet us at cspans website. Its firstladies. Were also already taking questions from people on our facebook page, and you can call in. Here are the phone numbers. If you live in the eastern half of the United States, eastern or central, 2025853880. If you live in the mountain or pacific time zones, or farther west, our number is 2025853881, and well mix your calls and your questions throughout our 90minute program. So, her biography. Where was she born and to whom . Betty boyd caroli she was born in well, you cant really say a town, because its a house outside the town, which is really not much of a town, either, karnack, texas, in 1912, december 1912, in a big house. I mean, one of the things i found in studying first ladies is how many of them married down, that is, they married into families considerably below theirs economically, socially, sometimes even education. And it made a big impression on me to drive past the house where Lady Bird Johnson was born, that 17room house with six fireplaces, and the big white columns, and then go 300 miles its right near the louisiana border and then drive 300 miles west and see that lowtotheground fourroom cabin where Lyndon Johnson was born. So she came from a far wealthier background than he did. Susan swain what are the important things to know about her childhood and what shaped her . Betty boyd caroli well, i think the death of her mother. She was only five when her mother died in what i consider mysterious circumstances. And she was pretty a very lonely child, although she said she wasnt, but how would she know what any other kind of childhood would be like . Her two brothers were she had two older brothers, but they were sent away to boarding school. Cokie roberts and they were a good bit older. Betty boyd caroli they were a good bit older, and they were sent away to boarding school. She particularly, the older one, the tommy, the oldest brother, she said she really never knew him. When he died in 1959 of pancreatic cancer, she said she cried harder than she had ever cried in her life. So it was a lonely childhood, i think. Even her name, you know, lady bird, the typical story is it came from a nurse. But she says in her interview with Mike Gillette that it was really two little africanamerican playmates, the children of hired help who decided to call her that, because they didnt like claudia, but it was not considered somehow acceptable to say that she had africanamerican playmates, so the nurse was brought in, and it was attributed to the nurse, the lady bird. Susan swain and an aunt who Betty Boyd Caroli who was dysfunctional, really. Cokie roberts with the aunt was someone she ended up having to take care of. Betty boyd caroli yes. Cokie roberts and so there she was, this little girl all by herself in this big house with a father who was around, but, you know, had no clue what to do with her, and this, you know, sort of nutty old southern aunt, and some playmates here and there. But the big advantage to that was she became a worldclass reader. Susan swain well, how important was it for southwestern women of that vintage to get an education . Was it unusual that she went to college . Cokie roberts yes, slightly. But by that time, more women were going to college. We were now talking the 1920s and into the 30s, so, yes, i mean, it was more common than it was clearly a generation before that. Susan swain do we know why she was interested in journalism . Cokie roberts i think that for a lot of women do you have an answer to that . Betty boyd caroli well, she did she was interested in high school, so its obviously an early interest. And i think it was part of her plan to get out of that area, to get out of that part of texas. Cokie roberts i also think for a lot of women, you know, they could write. They had learned to write, and that that was something they thought they could do. My mother wanted to be a journalist, too, and they both ended up as politicians. Susan swain the interesting thing about her approach to it here she was from a wealthy family, but she not only got a college degree, but she also got a teaching certificate and learned stenography. Betty boyd caroli thats what a girl did to prepare for all possibilities, right . Cokie roberts but isnt it interesting that she felt the need to prepare for all possibilities with as much money as she had . Betty boyd caroli yes, because she had a good income. I figured that she was inheriting about 7,500 a year in the 1930s, which was about what five School Teachers could make. Susan swain wow. Betty boyd caroli but i think her aim was to get out of there, i mean, she said some faraway place like hawaii or alaska. And remember, she went to the same Journalism School as walter cronkite. In fact, they had the same professor singled out the same professor as a favorite. Cronkite said he was a good professor. I think his name was paul bolton. And she hired him to head the news division, that same professor, when she bought the Radio Station. So i think we forget how very welltrained she was as a journalist. Susan swain how did she meet Lyndon Johnson . Betty boyd caroli well, by chance, supposedly, but it was certainly through a woman that they both knew, and they must have heard something about each other before. It was a september afternoon when lady bird was had dropped into the womans office. Her name was jean behringer, a woman that lady bird had grown up with, although the woman was older than she. And lyndon dropped by the same office on the same day. And it was, as lady bird says in the one of the interviews, it was electric going from the first minute. And the love letters, which are just the courtship letters, which were released by the library last valentines day, everybody should read them online. You know, you just put lbj courtship letters, and you can read the transcripts. They were they were conducting a hot and heavy courtship. Cokie roberts and fast. Betty boyd caroli because he was in washington. Cokie roberts and really fast. He was not going to waste any time. She was either going to marry him or not. Susan swain he was, at the time, a congressional aide . Cokie roberts right. Susan swain so she knew she was going to be selecting a life in politics. Cokie roberts i guess so. I mean, you could be an aide and not run, but he clearly had ambitions, and she was for those ambitions. Susan swain and he seemed like you call it whirlwind, but it seemed like he was if you read the books very directed. He knew he wanted her from the getgo. Was she encouraging this . Did she have any doubts about it . Cokie roberts well, i think from her own oral history, she basically says, you know, hold on here, as anybody would. And he essentially said, well, i mean, are you going to marry me or not . Because if youre not, lets just not see each other. She she didnt want to have him gone, so she finally said, okay. Susan swain did her father approve . Betty boyd caroli he liked lyndon, but he thought it was too fast. They met on, i think, september 6th, and lyndon showed up on halloween. So what is that, seven weeks later . I mean, the time theyd spent together, which was about five days, i think, and he was ready to get married right then. So even the father said, this is a little too fast. And the us and the woman who introduced them thought it was too fast. And aunt effie certainly thought it was too fast. So, yes, against really all the family counsel, she went ahead. I think when she got what she said when she got in the car that saturday morning and they drove down to san antonio to get married, she didnt know whether she would get out on the way. So she really didnt make up her mind until about 6 oclock when she went down to the church. Susan swain and was very young, 22, and he was 26 when they married. Betty boyd caroli well, she wasnt quite 22, was she . She was just 21, because her birthday came afterwards. Cokie roberts so that was normal. Betty boyd caroli 21 to 23 was the normal time. Susan swain well, before we learn more about their political life, lets take a few calls. Were going to begin with james in oakland, california. Hi, james. Whats on your mind . James yes, i have two questions. One is, did Lady Bird Johnson have any contact with Jacqueline Kennedy after she was first lady . And did Lady Bird Johnson ever have doubts about the vietnam war . Susan swain thanks very much. Did they continue their contact after the Johnson White house began . Betty boyd caroli yes. The johnsons, in fact, one the very first the tax bill, when that was signed, when Lyndon Johnson signed that, he went with Lady Bird Johnson to the house of Jackie Kennedy in georgetown and gave her four pens one for her, one for each of the kids, and one for the library. I think during the white house years, the contact was rather formal. The johnsons certainly invited mrs. Kennedy back, but she never came back while they were there. They gave gifts to the children. I know the first christmas, for example, they gave john, jr. , a fire engine. I mean, they certainly reached out to her. After the white house, though, in the 1980s, after she was widowed, Lady Bird Johnson and Jacqueline Kennedy i guess we wouldnt say renewed a friendship, really established a friendship when they were both on Marthas Vineyard for periods in the summer. Susan swain when you look at the documentary evidence, certainly she supported her husband publicly, but in the in her private materials, did you ever find any doubts that she expected about the vietnam war . Cokie roberts i never saw anything. Betty boyd caroli well, she said, if youre going to start a war, it has to be because of some big event, like pearl harbor. And to me, that meant that she thought they didnt have it in vietnam. Cokie roberts and, you know, it was it was so hard with all of the protests, and they were so personal. And that i think would put you in a position where you would just want to support him no matter what. Susan swain michael is in washington, d. C. Hi, michael. Michael hi, susan. I wanted to let you know that this program is just fabulous. Thank you so much. Ive watched it all the way from the beginning. Susan swain great. Thanks for watching. Michael my first question is, did Lady Bird Johnson have any of the former first ladies that were living at the time obviously, Jackie Kennedy didnt come back, because she didnt come back until the Nixon Administration but did she have any of the former first ladies back at the white house . And was she the oldest longestliving former first lady . Susan swain thank you very much. Betty boyd caroli the longestliving we just discussed this was bess truman, right . But its a very close tie. I think bess truman made it to 95, and Lady Bird Johnson and betty ford were both 94. So its very close. Question susan swain did other first ladies come back . Betty boyd caroli i dont remember who else was around to come back. Mamie eisenhower and bess truman. Cokie roberts and lou hoover . Betty boyd caroli no, lou hoover was dead in 44. But i know that the johnsons went to the trumans in independence, because thats where they signed the medicare act, and certainly lady theres a picture of them all there. But i dont remember anything about oh, they did, i think, confer with the eisenhowers about how to give the ranch to the nation, which is what the eisenhowers had done with gettysburg farm. But i dont remember having any luncheons with former first ladies. Susan swain early in their marriage, Lyndon Johnson gave lady bird a movie camera, and there are many hours of what are, really, family home movies that are now on recorded and accessible to historians and other researchers at the Lyndon Johnson library. Were going to see one of those next. It is from the 1941 special election. [video clip] Lady Bird Johnson soninlaw of and there i am. That hat and suit went all over texas. A night rally. Some of the gestures have persisted through the years. Weight was not his problem then. Sometimes hed sweat down three or four suits a day. Harfield wheaton odom on the right, the m. C. All i did in those days was wait and look. This is in competition with a carnival. Never try to do it. Susan swain they are fun to watch with the commentary of her. Betty boyd caroli oh, yes. Could i just say that those are accessible to anyone online . If you just put johnson, lbj home movies, about 35 of them come up, and you can watch them all. She said, by the way, that was her favorite campaign, and its the only one they lost. Cokie roberts lost. Betty boyd caroli yes. Susan swain would you talk about his progression from congressional aide to congress . Betty boyd caroli well, when she married him, he was a congressional aide, and thats when she started out. She got there new years eve, 1934. Shed been married, what, six weeks, five weeks or something. And he served about a year before they went back to texas so he could be head of the National Youth administration. And then she goes back in 1937 when hes elected to congress, and shes there for about a dozen years, as cokie said, as a congressional wife. And shes very good at networking with other women. Shes a very loyal member of the congressional wives club. And then he gets elected to the senate in 1948, and shes very loyal member of the senate wives. But in the house years, in 1941, after pearl harbor, lyndon enlisted. He had been in the naval reserves, and he enlisted and went off on activeduty, and she ran his congressional office. I dont think we have another first lady who ever ran her husbands office. Bess truman worked in her husbands Senate Office for pay, and Lady Bird Johnson was always very careful to say in all the letters that she sent out that she was volunteering her services. Cokie roberts and its remarkable. I mean, he just left her in charge and off he went. And then various friends of his reported to him that she was running the office a whole lot better than he had. But coming back to what betty was saying about networking with the political women, it was an Extraordinary Group of women, to begin with. But they what they were doing was not, you know, sitting around, drinking tea and tending to the tatting. They were very politically active, both in their husbands campaigns and in the broader campaigns, voter registrations, organizing conventions, all of that. But they were also very active in the district of columbia. It was before home rule. And they, no matter where they were from and at a time when it was not particularly wouldnt have been popular were it known where they were from, they worked with the africanamerican women here in washington on all kinds of social service issues, and they really did create a social safety net. Susan swain one thing that was interesting in the home video that we home film we just saw was that she said, my job at that time was to sit and watch Cokie Roberts sit and watch. Susan swain at what point did it become this was 1941 become, okay, acceptable for spouses of congressional candidates to become seen as being actively involved in campaigning . Cokie roberts well, it was different in different place. And some had been active from the beginning. I mean, again, Louisa Catherine adams talked about my vocation to get her husband, john quincy, elected president. God knows he wasnt working on it. So, you know, they had been much more active than anybody gives them credit for all through history, and certainly Eleanor Roosevelt was out there doing campaigning. So i and it was it was considered bad form if you didnt do a certain amount of campaigning. Betty boyd caroli but it was behind the scenes, most of it, and i think Lady Bird Johnson deserves credit for being the first wife of a president ial candidate to go off on a speaking tour of her own. That was really very new, because even Eleanor Roosevelt campaigned for other candidates, but i dont think she campaigned for her husband until he ran for that third term in 1940, because it wasnt considered i dont know Cokie Roberts ladylike. Betty boyd caroli ladylike to be open about your support for your husband. You were behind the scenes, maybe organizing women to put up posters or sending out letters. You were thanking people. What did Lady Bird Johnson say, that the candidates job the wife of a candidate, her job is to walk behind him and say, thank you, thank you, thank you. So it was pretty behind the scenes until, i think, the 60s. But Jackie Kennedy did do some ads in spanish, for instance, to try to get something we talk about all the time now, to try to get the hispanic vote. Susan swain next is a question from owen in marietta, georgia. Hi, owen. Owen hi. Susan swain hi. Whats your question for us . Owen my question is i have two. First is, what were Lady Bird Johnsons hobbies . And two is, what was her relationship with her kids . Susan swain okay, owen, so how old are you . Owen i am nine years old. Susan swain nine years old. And how did you become interested in Lady Bird Johnson . Owen well, my mom has been telling me about these programs, and i have really liked history for a while, and, well, i wanted to be able to call in and watch one, and i am able to now. Susan swain well, thank you very much for participating. Cokie roberts thats great. Just wonderful. Susan swain thats great. So the questions were, did she have any hobbies . Betty boyd caroli i would say her numberone hobby was nature, the outdoors. I mean, she said it was my kingdom, my world. And people told me that if she was doing something that she didnt particularly like, like sorting through pictures or doing some work that was boring, she would just start humming or whistling and take herself to a place where birds sang and flowers bloomed. It was a wonderful defense to have, i think. Cokie roberts but i think the photography, too, that she did enjoy the photography. Susan swain and also the second question was about her children. Cokie roberts she was i mean, she was a mom, you know, there was no question but that she was a present mom. Lynda johnson is two, three months younger than i am, and luci, of course, a few years younger. And, i mean, she was always around, and so were they. And then, as she grew old, they were very wonderful caretakers for her. Susan swain we need to talk about we said at the outset that she was a successful businesswoman in her own right. Another first she had, she was the first selfmade millionaire among the first ladies. How did she become that . Betty boyd caroli well, she inherited some money from and some land from relatives, and she bought a Radio Station in 1943, where i think the figure generally given is 17,500. And then she was very active in seeing that it was turned around from a moneylosing operation to a moneymaking operation. She went down and lived in austin for six months or so. And mopped floors and windows. Cokie roberts i mean, i just couldnt get over this when i read it in her oral history. I mean, she takes over a Radio Station and starts running it. I mean, huh . How do you do that . And she did it. She just went in, she changed the building, she changed the staff. She got the she got the station up, you know, and cbs came in and got it as an affiliate, and it became this highly successful station that she was running. And johnson basically just said to her, go run that station. And off she went and did it. Susan swain and she drove the distance between washington. Cokie roberts she drove back and forth constantly in washington and austin. And by the way i did that as a , kid, too, between new orleans and washington. It was no fun. There were no interstate highways. There was no air conditioning in the cars. It took a long time. Susan swain but is it fair to say she was a successful businessperson but it didnt hurt to have a politician who eventually became the majority leader of the senate as your spouse, so, i mean. Betty boyd caroli yes, many people have charged for example, when it came time to apply for a tv station, that the fact that her husband was a senator other people just didnt apply for the license. But she kept a really careful eye on the report she demanded when she was in washington. She demanded weekly reports, and people said she went over them with a finetooth comb, suggesting different sales pitches to use to sell airtime. She was very active in who got hired. She wanted so she was managing a good station. Cokie roberts and it was just the beginning. I mean, it became a it became a communications empire. Betty boyd caroli with tv. Susan swain and also during this time period, the johnsons, with lady bird, really with her investment, bought the acres in the texas hill country that was known as the johnson ranch. Were going to learn more about that in this next video. [video clip] dave schafer the living room is the oldest room in the house, dating back to the 1890s. In fact, she would refer to this as our hearts home, this home out here on the ranch. And we have a few things that speak to her connection to the room here. One of the things that she wanted to highlight was the native American Heritage here in the hill country. And we do have a small collection of arrowheads over there. Mrs. Johnson actually had her daughters, lynda and luci, look for arrowheads, and mrs. Johnson would pay them each 1 for every arrowhead. She found that lynda was doing quite a bit better at collecting them. And it turns out lynda was actually paying her schoolmates 0. 50 per arrowhead and then collecting 1 from her mother. She had an eye for copper, and collected various items through the years and had gifts from various friends. One of the objects that always gathers visitors attention, the three Television Sets. The president loved to watch the news, and at that time, the three Major Networks abc, nbc and cbs would all show the news at the same time. The president would turn down the volume on the Television Sets he didnt want to watch. But mrs. Johnsons Favorite Program was gunsmoke. And she routinely altered her schedule so she could catch an episode of her favorite western. Shortly after Lyndon Johnson became president , the ranch was dubbed the texas white house, and life at the ranch revolved around the home. And to show you the importance of the ranch and the home, the johnsons returned home 74 times during johnsons five years as president. Mrs. Johnson, as first lady, loved to show off the texas hill country and her home. The guests to the ranch would often informally gather here in the den. And various heads of state came to visit. President diaz ordaz of mexico, west german chancellor ludwig erhard, and israeli Prime Minister levi eshkol, to name a few. And they would visit with the johnsons right here in the den. The dining room was a very special place for Lady Bird Johnson, where she entertained her guests. She picked out the wallpaper depicting a country scene very similar to the hill country. And very similar to the scenes she would have seen out her picture window that she had installed at her request. Mrs. Johnson gave a tour of the house in 1968 that was filmed and where she featured the china that you see here purchased in mexico, very colorful. The president would sit down at this end of the table, where you see the cowhide chair, with, typically, mrs. Johnson at the other end of the table. And one feature that youll notice next to the president , a handy telephone. President johnson loved working the telephones, and in the middle of a meal could make a call or answer a call. Mrs. Johnson wasnt necessarily happy about that, but she got used to that, because Lyndon Johnson was such a workaholic. As first lady, mrs. Johnson spent a lot of time here at the ranch, and it was very important because it provided such a respite from all the turmoil of washington, particularly later in the presidency, where the johnsons could come home, recharge their batteries, and make that connection back to the land and this place that they valued so much. Susan swain how important was the ranch to them . Betty boyd caroli well, she didnt like it at all, when i she said the house looked like a Charles Adams house. She was very annoyed when he bought it. But she got to love it and, as you heard, called it her hearts home, so. Susan swain in the first ladies series, which weve referred to a lot, the modern first ladies series, the biography of her is written by lou gould, who is the sort of dean of the series. He makes a point in here about the difference between the kennedys, who were people of the east coast and people of the sea, and the johnsons, who are people of the land, which spurred their love of conservation. Does that connection make sense . Cokie roberts sure, it does. It makes a lot of sense. And that whole, you know, being part of texas which was a whole almost country of its own you know, it was very different from the boston, early part of the country, all of that. This is you know, this is where the country spread to and grew up and became exciting, and sort of every on your own, out there, and, of course, being in a ranch like that really emphasizes it. But mrs. Johnson again was very interesting about they talked in the little film clip about bringing chancellor erhard there. And that was a Great Success of bringing him to the ranch and serving him texas food, instead it being a white house state dinner. And, of course, that part of texas has a lot of people of german descent, and they were also around, and that was a great eyeopener for the chancellor and a wonderful moment for those people in texas. Susan swain many studies have been made and books have been written about Lyndon Johnsons Senate Majority leader career and what a powerful majority leader he was and how happy he was. Master of the senate is robert caros volume on that, for example. What were the Vice President ial years like for lady bird . Betty boyd caroli the Vice President ial years for her were great, but they were terrible for him. Everybody says they were his worst years. But she loved it. First of all, she traveled a lot. And i think she talked about arriving in senegal and feeling like shed been put down in the middle of national geographic, because it was so, the travel was good. She really thrived on being a second lady, if thats what were going to call it. And, of course, as cokie pointed out, shed filled in a lot for mrs. Johnson. Susan swain but if he was unhappy, and her role was really to keep him happy in his political career, keep the domestic life going, how did she help him through that . Betty boyd caroli well, she tried. She was always trying to get him to go to the gym, because he put on a lot of weight, and she tried to get him to watch his diet. And she invited a lot of people for him to that he would like to see, but they were really not good years. I think everybody will agree that he did not do well. The Vice President that job is a little difficult for strong people. Cokie roberts but she started these womendoers luncheons, and she had them in places like senegal. And, you know, again, people think that this is something new under the sun, that just recent first ladies have been interested in women and womens issues and promoting the role of women around the world. Mrs. Johnson was doing that back when she was second lady. Susan swain and this 1960 campaign, you also this is the one where she really came into her own and campaigned and understood what it was like to be on the National Stage in a way she hadnt in the past. Is that right . Cokie roberts well, i dont think anybody knows what its like to be on the National Stage until theyre on it. I think thats always a shock, no matter how experienced you are as a candidate or as a candidates family. To run as president and Vice President is a whole other thing. Susan swain well, how popular i mean, the ticket, the 1960 ticket in the Southern States in particular, with the Roman Catholic on the ticket, had a big selling job to do. Also, the south was changing at that time. Can you talk about how the johnsons approached the people that lived in the south during that campaign . Cokie roberts mainly by identifying with them. And mrs. Johnson was very key in that. You know, she emphasized her alabama roots, which is where her mother was from. And she had spent time there with cousins as a child. And she insisted on spending time in the south, and but she also when they went home to texas, they did have this one awful incident where they were attacked, and she was very rudely and somewhat dangerously treated. And there are a lot of political analysts who think that that actually threw texas to them, because people were so shocked to see a lady, and particularly a lady like mrs. Johnson, treated in such a fashion. But, look, the main thing is that texas did go for the ticket and had it not, kennedy would not have been elected president. And whenever were talking about the pick for Vice President and all of that, the only time we can ever actually prove that a Vice President ial pick made a difference is the johnson pick. Betty boyd caroli and she, remember, held those teas all across texas and insisted on shaking hands with all the 400 or 500 women who showed up. And after texas did go for kennedyjohnson in 1960, didnt Robert Kennedy say, mrs. Johnson won texas for us . Cokie roberts right. Susan swain when approached during campaigning about the catholic issue, how did mrs. Johnson reply to people . Betty boyd caroli im not sure i ever heard her reply to that question. Cokie roberts i dont think it was a question that would have been address to her, you know. It was much more either sotto voce, or it was directed to the kennedys. Susan swain next call is from john in charleston. Hi, john, youre on. Caller good evening. How are yall . Betty boyd caroli good. Cokie roberts were great. Thank you. Caller good. I appreciate cspan having the first ladies series. One question i had was you highlighted a little bit about it. But how was mrs. Johnson treated on the lady bird express . I know she came to charleston, 1964. I believe congressman boggs accompanied her with congressman mendel rivers, who was a big, powerful congressman in the state. And he kind of went out on a limb to do all he could for her, but i think she was pretty she was treated pretty bad here in charleston. But overall, how was she treated, i guess, with the rest of the south . And what was, kind of, their relationship with the rivers and the johnsons . Susan swain thanks very much. A little bit later on, well have a clip from the lady bird express, but it fits nicely with the Campaign Style and the approach in the south that were talking about. Cokie roberts well, of course, in 1964, we were in a whole different place, because the president had signed the 1964 civil rights bill in the summertime, and the south was up in arms. And mrs. Johnson absolutely insisted on taking what was the lady bird special through the south saying, you know, this is the part of country that i am from, i am not going to write off the south. And so they all got organized. I found just recently in my basement since i live in the house i grew up in all of the advance work for the lady bird special in my mothers handwriting. And she said she has various places we cant find a local politician to show up. But the women, who were wives of candidates of members were with them, and my father, as the caller said, served as something of an mc on the train. But my mother told the story that they would have to go ahead , because there were bombs along the way, there were threats all along the way. But not only was mrs. Johnson on that train, but so were the johnson daughters. And thats a lot of courage. Susan swain and we will come back, as i mentioned, a little bit later on and have some reflections from lynda, the daughter who was part of the campaign then. But i wanted to just ask this question, when were talking about her approach to politics in her campaigning, from a facebook viewer, david welch, who asked, how was essentially asking whether or not she could have had a political career in her own right if she had been born later. Betty boyd caroli well, thats an interesting question. I, somehow, dont see her as running for office, but she developed the traits. For example, she started taking speech lessons, speaking lessons, public speaking lessons in 1959. So that was a far cry from where she started out, where the only thing she did was working in the backroom with the letters and getting other women to do the speaking. Lyndons mother and his sister were the ones she turned to in the 40s. So she did develop so maybe in another time she would have been. Cokie roberts and also, you know, what happened with my mother, her contemporary, was that my father was killed in a plane crash, and my mother ran for his seat. That could have easily happened with mrs. Johnson. But i will tell you that what she said to my mother, when mama called lady bird to say she was running, mrs. Johnson said, well, lindy, thats wonderful, but how are you going to do it without a wife . [laughter] susan swain just to demonstrate the kind of partnership they had and how essential that she was to Lyndon Johnsons approach, public approach, we have a clip next for you that is a pretty wellknown one. It is lady birds critique of an lbj speech. This was one that was right after a press conference. And you can hear how very direct she is with the president in his approach and his presentation. [video clip] Lady Bird Johnson you want to listen for about one minute to my critique or wait for another time . Lyndon johnson yes, maam. Im willing now. Lady bird johnson i thought that you looked strong, firm, and like a reliable guy. Your looks were splendid. The closeups were much better than the distance ones. Pres. Lyndon johnson well, you cant get them to do it. Lady bird johnson well, i would say this, there were more closeups than there were distance ones. During the statement, you were a little breathless, and there was too much looking down, and i think it was a little too fast. Not enough change of pace. Dropping voice at the end of sentence. There was a considerable pickup in drama and interest when the questioning began. Your voice was noticeably better, and your facial expression was noticeably better. I thought your answer on large was good. I thought your answer on getting on was good. I really didnt like the answer on the gull, because i think ive heard you say, and i believe you actually have said out loud, that you dont believe you ought to go out of the country this year. So i dont think you can very well say that youll meet him anytime thats convenient for both people. Susan swain what are we hearing there . Betty boyd caroli youre hearing a very firm, a very educated evaluation of a speech. I think its wonderful, that tape. Cokie roberts and he clearly wanted her analysis. He relied on it. But as you listen to that tape all the way through, he starts backing away from the phone, you know, because and starts getting somewhat defensive. Well, they told me to do that, you know, that kind of thing. Because, you know, nobody really likes to hear that direct a criticism. But he relied on her to tell him the truth. Susan swain well, they were obviously very close and valued political partners. But the flipside of this is that there were challenges in their marriage because of Lyndon Johnsons infidelity, something that he actually would occasionally brag about. How did this affect their partnership, if it did at all . Betty boyd caroli well, people who knew them said that she always acted as though it didnt happen, but that she must have known it existed. And i think its important to realize that journalists changed how they covered president s during the johnson years. You know, she had lived in washington all those years and watched as Franklin Roosevelts relationship with lucy mercer and john f. Kennedys relationship with other women, reporters didnt write about that. But in the johnson years, and perhaps encouraged a little bit by the president himself, president johnson himself, they did start writing about the women who were around him. I think Time Magazine in april of 1964 so Lyndon Johnson had been president only three or four months had this article about Lyndon Johnson driving around the roads of texas at 85 miles an hour with a glass of beer on the dashboard and a beautiful young reporter at his side, cooing into his ear, mr. President , youre fun, i think was the headline. I dont think youll find any articles on previous president s. So i think its important to remember that she came into the spotlight at a time when the spotlight had changed. Susan swain heres one critique of president johnson about this aspect of his life and the source is lou gould, again, in his biography. Johnson preyed on some of the women who worked with him and was not above making advances to the wives of friends and reporters and acted as a kind of romantic predator when his wife was not present. Can you talk about the reporting relationship and how that has changed . You said nothing is new under the sun, and we have many examples of prior first ladies whove dealt with this, but times were changing. Cokie roberts well, i think the i, trust me, was not, you know, somebody who was aware of this, in terms of mrs. Johnsons views and all of that. It was something nobody would talk about, certainly not the moms. But the but i think that whats happened in terms of reporting is that its only grown. But part of that has to do with the increase of the numbers of women in the ranks of the reporters, because there is a sense that the personal is political. And i think that where you really saw the huge shift in that was in 1984 with gary hart. But i think that, you know that before that, there was a sense of what happens on the bus or on the trail or whatever stays there, and that did change with the increased number of women on the bus. Susan swain back to phone calls, dave in albuquerque. Hi, dave. Caller hi, how are you . Susan swain great, thanks. Whats your question . Caller i was wondering the series has been really great. But one question that keeps occurring to me, for both lady bird and all of the first ladies, how big of a staff do they tend to have in the east wing . I mean, do they have their own speechwriters . Do they have i know they have the social secretary. But how big of a staff is there , generally, that the first lady has at her disposal . Susan swain well, thank you for asking that, because, in many ways, Lady Bird Johnson created the framework for the modern first lady. Cokie roberts thats right. Susan swain how did she do that . Cokie roberts she hired as she went into office, she hired Liz Carpenter as press secretary and chief of staff, and bess abell, who had been working for her, as social secretary. And they really, you know, took over the east wing and then hired others, obviously, to help. But that was the first time that there had been a press secretary, chief of staff. Betty boyd caroli who knew what they were doing. Cokie roberts right. Betty boyd caroli yes. And she had a i tried to find out the number, and i was told by her office that it varied, because not only did she hire a large competent staff herself, but she also brought in on loan people from other departments. For example, for the beautification campaign, she brought in people from the secretary of interiors office, so it was not on her budget. And so its really hard to come up with a number. It was somewhere in the 20s. Cokie roberts and she also still had this cadre of political women who worked with her on many of these things, particularly on head start, for instance, when she got very engaged in creating head start. My mother was very engaged with her, as were several other of the political wives. So she had a lot of volunteers, very highly trained, very smart volunteers, as well. Susan swain how long was it before the office of first lady was officially established . And how was that done . Betty boyd caroli well, thats difficult to answer. Most people point to Mamie Eisenhower as having the first secretary that makes it into the official being listed in the little blue book as the secretary to the first lady. But, of course, way back at the beginning, it was mostly relatives or friends, you know, the sisterinlaw who did the volunteer work, so its very its hard to document. The roosevelt women always had their social secretaries, and they passed those on from one generation to the next. But i think we can point to Lady Bird Johnson as having the first really professional staff. Remember, Liz Carpenter had been a reporter since 1942. Thats when lady bird met her. I mean, their friendship went way back. So she chose people and they stayed with her the entire time in the white house. Cokie roberts and after. Betty boyd caroli and after, right. Cokie roberts and the other thing that i think is remarkable is that, as mrs. Johnson became so much in demand on many of these issues, particularly on what they called beautification really, Environmental Issues people wanted her everywhere. And so she had to create essentially an office of surrogates, which is such a funny notion, because we always think of the first lady as the surrogate for the president. But there was an office of surrogates for the surrogate. Susan swain next is shirley in lady birds hometown, austin, texas. Hi, shirley, youre on. Caller yes, hi. Well, im so pleased that youre doing this series. Its just wonderful. The first ladies are getting their due. I wanted to mention, earlier in the program, you asked if mrs. Johnson ever had former first ladies at the white house. Well, i know she had two at the ranch, mrs. Carter and mrs. Ford. And i believe it was probably in the late 1980s. And also, i wanted to mention that mrs. Johnsons centennial was last her birthday was last december 22, 2012. And in honor of that, the post Office Issued a commemorative stamp. And mrs. Johnson was only the fifth first lady to have a stamp. The others were Martha Washington, and dolley madison, abigail adams, and mrs. Roosevelt. Susan swain shirley, our producer tells me that you have a personal connection with the former first lady. Caller yes, i was her executive assistant from 1991 until her death. Susan swain what is it that you would like people watching this program to know about mrs. Johnson . Caller oh, my. Well, first of all, cokie and betty are doing a terrific job. Thank you. She was very warm. She was unflappable. She had a delicious laugh it was a hardy belly laugh. And she was just such a good role model for all of us who knew her and loved her. And when you worked for mrs. Johnson well, for the president , too, although i didnt know the president but you became part of the family. So she was my friend, and i loved her, but she loved me, too. So it was a privilege working for and knowing her and her family. They have certainly followed in her footsteps, and theyre all just terrific people. And, anyway, its been an honor. Susan swain thanks very much for your call and adding your personal reflections to the program. Cokie roberts you know, at mrs. Johnsons funeral, all of the staff, no matter how old they were and how far away they were, came, including some secret service men who had really, you know, retired long before, but who loved her so much that they made the huge effort to get there. Susan swain well, with all those kind words, regina crumkey is asking on twitter, is there anything in her white house diary that would shock us, even today . Cokie roberts she wouldnt have Cokie Roberts she wouldnt have Cokie Roberts she wouldnt have put it in. [laughter] im sorry to say. Susan swain she was careful about the history that she reported at the time. Lets go next to marvin, whos watching us in los angeles. Hey, marvin, youre on the air. Caller yes, thank you very much for the program. One thought first. I was able to be at the texas delegation at the Democratic Convention where jfk and lbj had a sort of a debate. It was very humorous. And jfk said, i think youre such a great Senate Majority leader, you should stay there. My question number one is, did Lady Bird Johnson want lbj to accept the vp nomination . And, number two, would lbj have been as successful in all of his various jobs without the support of Lady Bird Johnson . Betty boyd caroli well, i think we can start with the second one first. Everybody pretty much agrees that it would have been a different Lyndon Johnson without lady bird. Dont you think that, too . Cokie roberts absolutely. And i think hed say that. I mean, she was an enormous part of his success and his support. Betty boyd caroli and then on the 1960s question, it seems fairly clear that initially she and a lot of other people did not want him to take the second spot on the ticket. They considered john kennedy really a Junior Member of the senate, and he should wait his turn. But i think she came around, and nobody could have campaigned harder than she did. Cokie roberts well, what happened was that, you know, sam rayburn had to be convinced. And at least my familys story is that my father went to him and said, do you want Richard Nixon to win . Betty boyd caroli exactly. [laughter] Cokie Roberts there you are. Susan swain on beautification, conservation, her cause, how did she choose it . Betty boyd caroli well, first of all, it was a heartfelt thing. But, you know, in that first year in the white house, the year that they had the rest of the kennedy term, she didnt choose a project. She didnt even change the curtains that needed changing, because she said the next family might not like it and she acted as though that would be the last year in the white house. But then, after Lyndon Johnson won so big in 1964, she sent out, really, requests for advice on what she should do. And the word came back that she, like other first ladies, should do something about washington. And the beautification of washington really came out of that. But very quickly, i think it became clear that her committee her beautification, people had split. And some wanted to go more national, and thats where the emphasis on National Parks, highway beautification came. Mary lasker, for example, who was a very important part of that whole movement thought that she should do something. And mary lasker said, these highways are terrible. I think she was thinking particularly the new jersey turnpike. She said all those signs, you know, it can be better. So its good to think of her beautification project as being national, and that was highway beautification, getting the junkyards either removed or covered up with fences. And then the washington part and even the washington part split into two. One group wanted to plant tulips. I think they were called the dogwoods set or something. The people wanted to polish the statues and make it a more beautiful city for tourists. And the others who wanted to go into the poor neighborhoods, where sports fields, recreation facilities were just not there, and do something for those neighborhoods. And the important thing about her, i think, is that she incorporated them all. What she also did is personally lobbied the United States congress. There was no hiding behind the man. She did not pretend that she was not doing it. She was up there lobbying. You know, it sounds all nicey, nicey beautification. But, in fact, you can imagine, the billboard lobby was completely against any of this. There were people, of course, as there always are in these situations, there were people pushing harder, saying she wasnt doing enough, you know, that it needed to be much a much bigger emphasis on cleaning everything up, and people saying youre going way too far. And she just hung in there, and she kept it up. I mean, even as the congress was really not to reauthorize, she kept it up. So she was a very powerful force. And that really was the first time there have been such first ladies have always lobbied, from Martha Washington on. But that was the first time there had been such public lobbying. Susan swain well, we promised you earlier we would show you the lady bird special train tour, and thats a good time to show it, because it demonstrates her political skills, which she put to her Environmental Issues. Lets watch that now. Lady bird johnson the south and the whole nation at this election are at a crossroads between past and future. We face many problems together. Peace is one, and Economic Prosperity is another. We have reached good and Workable Solutions in the past through this partnership. And it takes men in washington who care about the people of the south, and it takes citizens here at home with a vision of the future. Today, many parts of the south present one of the nations proudest pictures of progress. A Democratic Victory means we will face new challenges together with imagination and zeal. We draw on the past our strengths, but we do not plan to turn back. Lynda johnson robb mother didnt want the south to think that we didnt want their vote, that just because we knew that there were a lot of people who didnt like the civil rights bill, for instance, she hoped that she could appeal to them to recognize that that was a time that was coming and that change had to be made and we were moving forth, and that there were also a lot of africanamerican citizens who we were there, and we wanted to reassure them. Now, we ran into some people that didnt like us and that were very vocal. We heard that there were threats that they were going to blow the train up, and so they ran a car through before ours, just think, if it was on the tracks, theyd blow up the sidecar and not get us. But and then there were threats all along the way, but it was a wonderful success. And mother would stand on the back of the train like she had seen harry truman do, and she would tell him how proud and how happy she was to be here, and she hoped that they would vote for her husband. Susan swain and, Cokie Roberts, right behind Lady Bird Johnson is who . Cokie roberts was my father, hale boggs. Nice to see him. Susan swain and those political skills applying to the campaign beautification campaign, how did they stand her in good stead . Cokie mentioned how controversial this was. But was it really a tough job selling this to the congress . And was it a difficult job with the lobbying groups . Betty boyd caroli the highway the billboard lobby was very strong. I think we forget how strong it was. And i think maybe now the judgment is that she tried to do too much on that, that that was really very hard, but she did. Cokie roberts and washington i mean, people dont realize that this beautiful city we live in is much, much, much more beautiful because of her and mary lasker, her friend, who was a wonderful philanthropist. But, i mean, this perfusion of flowers and trees, and the fact that you just come into the city and are greeted by just total beauty is a result of her having been here. Susan swain and this was a complement to Lyndon Johnsons Great Society programs . Or was it truly an independent campaign . Betty boyd caroli well, it was a little of both. I mean, we certainly associate it. Thats something i think that weve required almost of every first lady since her, what will be your project . I think Michelle Obama was asked that even before the nomination. So it was a little of both. It was a complement to the Great Society, and it was also uniquely hers. Cokie roberts but the first ladies who have succeeded her, particularly both Michelle Obama and laura bush, have said have quoted her that she has said, you know, i realized and i think thats part of what betty was saying. You know, it took her a while, and she had to have that big landslide, that she was no longer the heir to the job. But she said, i realized, i had a pulpit and i could use it, and i could use it to do good. And and she determined that she was going to do that. And they have taken those words and followed them very consciously quoting her. Betty boyd caroli Rosalynn Carter also has made a point. And remember that she continued that work after the beautification, if we want to use that terrible term. Cokie roberts right. Betty boyd caroli which she hated, also. Cokie roberts she hated it. Betty boyd caroli but she continued it after she left the white house, i think until 1990, which is whatever it is, 22 years after leaving the white house, she continued to give that highway beautification award out of her own pocket to highway workers in texas who had done most to beautify the highways of texas. So im always interested in which first ladies continue their projects afterwards and which one forget that they ever did that. Susan swain here are some of the key accomplishments and challenges of the Johnson Administration, including the passage of a major education bill, the establishment of public broadcasting, the establishment of medicare and medicaid, the signing of the civil rights act, which had been Kennedy Administration legislation, the Warren Commission report, with the findings on the johnson i mean, excuse me, the kennedy assassination, the establishment people say today still is the framework for how the International Community treats outer space, and of course, the vietnam war. Cokie roberts and the Voting Rights act of 1965. Betty boyd caroli yes. Cokie roberts which i think is probably the most important civil rights piece of legislation, because it made it clear that people could get the vote and then work to get themselves in a better situation. Cokie roberts but the civil rights bill of 1964, youre quite correct, of course, susan, that it started under president kennedy, but i dont think theres any way on earth president kennedy could have gotten that bill through congress. And i think it took Lyndon Johnson and his great skills as a former majority leader and an incredible armtwister to get that bill through. And the tapes certainly show us that. Susan swain in each of these programs, weve talked about how the first lady, but the the first couple have used the white house as a base for their lobbying, as it were, their relationships in washington. How did the johnsons used the white house . Betty boyd caroli they used it very differently than the kennedys. I think they had there was a month of mourning, of course, after the assassination, and so there was no entertaining. But by early january of 1964, they were having their two or three evenings a week getting congressmen and their spouses in there in small groups. They could have done it in one big reception and gotten some footage, but they did it a dozen at a time and got much more got much closer to the congressmen. Also, i was struck by the fact that she used the white house many of the congressmens wives had never been upstairs, and certainly the kennedys didnt open the second floor. But she had them and the women reporters up there i think january 8. I mean, she had only lived in the white house about a month, and she had the women reporters going through the family bathrooms and looking at the living quarters. It was completely different from Jacqueline Kennedys attitude that the upstairs was offlimits and it was private. Cokie roberts and dont underestimate the power of that, because people, when they feel that theyre in the inner sanctum and theyve gotten something special, theyre likely to be nicer to you. Susan swain i also read that women reporters were coming into their own during this time period. And mrs. Johnson, by having lots of news to cover, helped them with their careers. Betty boyd caroli yes, im sure they they appreciated her being so open. I was struck by the fact that she had when she had the women reporters through the upstairs quarters, she said, i felt good about it, because ive always been open about my life, and i think thats why i am pleased to share most aspects of that with the reporters. But she said one thing shed do next time was put away the books she was reading, because i think a week later, an article appeared which may have been coincidence but listing the books that mrs. Johnson liked, so even she, i guess, would Cokie Roberts put a different one out. Put the bible out there. Susan swain mrs. Johnson fired mrs. Kennedys french chef, but she also continued mrs. Kennedys restoration of the white house, but she insisted that all of the acquisitions be americanmade, which was a bit different than Jacqueline Kennedys approach to the white house. We saw her on a video saying, i want the finest things, no matter where they came from. Betty boyd caroli right. And Jacqueline Kennedy told her to get white house china made in france, and she did not. She got it made in the u. S. With a wildflower theme. So she was her own woman. Susan swain also, on the social side, they had the First White House wedding in 53 years. Cokie roberts right. Well, first, lucis wedding, and then lyndas, so they really had they had both of their daughters marry while they were in white house. And, of course, that was a very joyous thing to have, because and by this time we were getting into the vietnam war and into the into some of the real nastiness. And to have the weddings was a really nice moment of just of sitting back and saying this is a family. Susan swain who did the daughters marry . Betty boyd caroli well, luci married in august of 66, right . She married pat nugent in a catholic ceremony. Not in the white house. So lyndas is the First White House wedding of a president s daughter, i believe, since the wilson daughter in what would be 1914. So this and she married he had been a military aide, charles robb. Susan swain and what was mrs. Johnsons role in it . And was she very much involved in the planning of all these things . Betty boyd caroli oh, yes. I mean, everything became political, whether or not there was a union label in lucis gown. Her diary has a lot about what an ordeal that was for her. I think the day after Cokie Roberts they had to make two dresses. Susan swain is that right . Betty boyd caroli and the day after lucis wedding, i know she fled to the virginia farm where she sometimes went when she didnt want to see anybody. And, of course, after lyndas wedding, the president fled, so i think they both found it stressful. Susan swain barbara is watching us in san francisco. Hi, barbara, youre on. Barbara yes, good evening. I want to say, i love your program. The question that i have is, what are luci and lynda doing now . And how many children do they have each . Thank you very much. Cokie roberts well, lynda is here in the virginia suburbs of washington. Her husband, chuck robb, was governor of virginia and a senator from virginia. And lynda has been very, very active in all kinds of causes where shes been very effective. And she was the first lady of virginia, and she has been a political wife herself and knows those ropes. Luci was married to patrick nugent. They divorced. I think she had four children and now is married to ian. Betty boyd caroli turpin. Cokie roberts turpin. And he had children, too. So lucis christmas cards are just have a million kids, and its adorable. Susan swain but the grandchildren, there were seven all together. Cokie roberts right. And lynda now has three grandchildren. Susan swain and ian turpin has a connection with the johnson family. He is with the foundation . Betty boyd caroli yes, hes head of part of the business in texas. Susan swain Gary Robinson wants to know and i think you alluded to this what was lady birds most challenging time in the white house . Was it the vietnam years . Cokie roberts i think so. I think the vietnam years were very hard on everybody. They were hard on the whole country, but we also were going through this huge generational fight. And i think that having people outside the white house screaming, hey, hey, lbj, how many kids did you kill today . Can you imagine . And this is somebody that you know means wants to do the right thing by the country, and it is a horrible thing to have that. Betty boyd caroli but she kept going out and giving speeches in spite of those. Remember, the williams college. Cokie roberts right. Susan swain in 1999, Lady Bird Johnson gave an interview to cspan, and she spoke about vietnam. Brian lamb wheres vietnam going to fit in . Lady bird johnson as a wretched obstacle along the way, which he couldnt solve, couldnt escape, couldnt shake off. Brian lamb when did you see him at his lowest . Lady bird johnson during those days, i think when the bags began to come home. By that, i mean brian lamb body bags . Lady bird johnson they would come in at night on freight trains. And i dont know whether this was good planning or just happenstance. But several times, i would be on my way back from a trip to new york from somewhere, and at the station, as i would get off, there would be freight trains, and those bags would be were being unloaded and put onto i dont know what kind of vehicle. In that, i knew what he was doing, and i knew i couldnt help him. Brian lamb did you try to help in any way . Lady bird johnson yes, yes, of course. Brian lamb what would you do . Lady bird johnson id just say, youre doing the best you can, and i think a lot of those people understand it. G and there really isnt much yu can do in a situation like that, except to say, im here. Susan swain as the public sentiment against the war mounted, can you walk us through the president s ultimate decision not to seek reelection and what lady birds role in that was . Betty boyd caroli well, she says and i think theres other evidence to support this that she well, in fact, she wrote in her diary in 1964, i know when the time to leave will be, and it is exactly and she picked march of 1968. I dont she was such an authentic person that i dont think she dreamed that up later. Certainly, as 1967 wound on, there was a big meeting, i think, in september of 67 at the ranch, and she talks about being called in with the top advisers, and she says, i dont want another campaign; i dont want to ask people one more time to help out. But it was hard for Lyndon Johnson to walk away from the presidency, i think. And i believe there was a sentence written that he would include in his state of the union, and then he said he forgot it or he couldnt find it in his pocket or something. But i think she very much wanted him not to run in march of 68. And he, of course, found it difficult to walk away. Cokie roberts apparently, she was worried about his health. And what we havent talked about is susan swain heart attack, yes. Cokie roberts heart attack in 1955. Susan swain right. Cokie roberts which was really a massive heart attack, and he was he was quite affected by it, and the whole family was affected by it. And so i think that that was something that they always had hovering over them. And she had been very protective of his health and of his diet, as best she could be. And so it was it was something that was always on her mind. And, in fact, he did die in january of 1972. Susan swain so she had four years after the white house. Betty boyd caroli 73. Cokie roberts 73, right. Betty boyd caroli right. So i think he lived like four days beyond the what would have been another term. Cokie roberts econd term. Betty boyd caroli and he had a serious he couldnt have been president. He had that serious heart condition during that time, another heart attack. Susan swain and the tumult National Tumult continued in 1968 after that announcement was made with the Martin Luther king assassination, then the Robert Kennedy assassination. And how did the johnsons hold this all together, knowing that theyd be leaving . Cokie roberts well, i mean, it was a terrible time. 1968 was just a year that you know, here we are in the week of the 50th anniversary of the 1963 assassination. And that was the beginning, you know, of americas loss of innocence, in a way, but we had no notion what was going to happen after that happened. And just trying to keep the country together and keep it in some sense of not falling into despair was something that all the political leaders had to do. And the president tried, but it was very hard for him, because he was seen as the symbol of the problem by so many of the people. Susan swain as we said, Lyndon Johnson lived just four years after he left office in 1969, lady bird living 38 more years, and many of those active ones. Were going to return to the lbj library to learn a little bit more about how they worked there and prepared the library for the recording of the Johnson Administrations history. Marjorie morton were in the private office of mrs. Lyndon johnson at the lbj library. I was her social secretary from 1976 to 1990. And a typical day would begin with her coming in, in the morning, probably around 9 oclock, and she would come in toting a straw bag in each hand filled with some of these things you see on her desk that she had taken home for signing, or speechwriting, or event planning, whatever she was working on. And she would always say when she came into office that she felt like a little burrow, because she had a straw satchel in each hand like saddlebags. And shed come in and get to work. Her desk was always very orderly. She had her calendar that she worked in her daybook, and she kept files on her desk, files she was working on, trips she was taking. She was on the board of one of the banks, national geographic, smithsonian, she would keep in large envelopes on her sofa with either the title or the dates on them, so that she could pick them up, work on them, and close everything back in them. And as she worked on her desk with letters that she was processing or things, when she completed things, she would put them on the floor. But she stayed at the office most of the day, making phone calls or working on projects that she loved so much. She loved this office because she could look out at her alma matter and then a corridor through to the capital in the city she loved so much. She would stay here all day, and that was pretty much monday through friday. And when we are having guests at the ranch, she would sometimes go out a few days early and stay in the different guest rooms to check on the water and then the lights, electricity to be sure everything was working, the tvs, in the different rooms. And wed also make a stop on the way out to the ranch to the store to pick up magazines that were guestspecific for whoever was coming to the ranch for the weekend. She was very thoughtful, very meticulous, and very gracious at that. We had three office staff at the time. We had a person who handled her calendar. We had a person who came from the white house as her press secretary who helped her work on speeches, and then i was in the office. So that chair was usually occupied by one of us a good part of the day as we rotated doing projects that she was working on. By friday afternoon, she was ready to leave and go to the ranch, which she really called home. And about 3 30 in the afternoon, she would say, do i have anything else to do . And if the answer was no, shed say, tell the secret service im ready to go. And shed get up, and wed pack those little saddlebags up, and shed take off and head out to the ranch for the weekend to be back there on monday morning, normally. I was so fortunate to be here and learn so much from her in the way she did things, in the way she entertained. And i like the way she entertained. I think thats one reason we did so well together. I really loved her sense of making people feel at home. She was so, so good at it. Cokie roberts the business of being guestspecific, she was so thoughtful about things being for you. And when i got married, they were in the white house when i got married, and she sent out to the house a beautiful which, of course, weve had since a picture, a print of the capitol seen from the white house in the 19th century. And it was just so perfect. You know, they because the capitols building i grew up in, and their but their view of it now, and its, of course, signed by them. Susan swain so weve learned from you and from this tape that she continued to be a very active first lady, postfirst lady, and into her very late years. Betty boyd caroli into the 1990s, i think the Macular Degeneration in the 90s she had to stop reading, and thats when she really stopped giving speeches, i was told, because she couldnt see the notes well enough. So but certainly until the 90s she was very active. And then we were talking earlier about how even after the stroke, she continued to see people, just so valiantly going out to restaurants, and even though she couldnt voice her reaction, she laughed and made people feel that she really appreciated them. Cokie roberts and she was very active at the library and very, very interested in the work and very proud of the work of the library. I was there at least three times in this century, the 21st century, so and she was always there. Betty boyd caroli and she was so important in the building of the library. I mean, she looked into the smallest detail, how they were going to attach certain things to the wall. She had herself raised in a crane so she could see what the view would be from her office, which is on the top floor. She was very important in the building of the library, and where it would be located, because she had traveled to the fdr library and thought the hometown might not be the best place. She wanted it at a university. Susan swain karen in cleveland. Hi, karen. Karen hi, good evening. I had two questions. One was i was wondering about how mrs. Johnson felt about her daughter, luci, getting married at such a young age. And the second question was about her involvement in the work in the Johnson School of government at the university of texas after her husbands death. Susan swain thank you. Cokie roberts well, her work at texas was very much as part of the work at the library. It was all of a piece. And she was very interested in that work. And thats a great place. Its a wonderful school. You know, she was private about her views about her daughter getting married young, but obviously it was something worrisome. But then once luci had made up her mind, her parents embraced it and embraced her husband. Susan swain in her postwhite house years, her work for conservation and beautification was recognized with a president ial medal of freedom in 1977 and the congressional gold medal in 1988. Also, the National Wildflower center was created as a result of her work. Where is that located . Betty boyd caroli its in austin. When she first started it, it was called the National Wildflower center. I think she it was on her 70th birthday, and it has since moved, but its still in austin, and its really quite an operation, answering questions from all over the world about what species will grow where and showing people model gardens. And she continued to visit that right up until she was in a wheelchair with an oxygen tank, i think. Cokie roberts she was very. Betty boyd caroli and she knew the people who worked there. She really continued to be active in that. Susan swain as our time about Lady Bird Johnson comes to an end, were going to return to the ranch in texas one last time. Dave schafer this is mrs. Johnsons private bedroom. It was part of the 1967 remodeling. She specified to the designers that she wanted this to be her forever room. She specified certain elements she wanted a fireplace, eastfacing windows, and a large bookcase to display so many mementos and keepsakes she gathered through the years, the birds, the china, and also cameras. Lyndon johnson actually gave mrs. Johnson a camera for her wedding gift, and she became quite a really photojournalist. She had an eightmillimeter camera to capture home movies. We have hours and hours of her home movies, as well as a recorder here where mrs. Johnson, every night at the white house, would record her daily observations. And this became the basis for the book, a white house diary, which is a very insightful chronicling of those tumultuous years of the 1960s. Now, mrs. Johnson, though, for 34 years after the president s death, in her later years, mrs. Johnson loved to sit here at this desk to keep up with her correspondence and all of her activities as a very active former first lady. Also in this space, we have mrs. Johnsons closet, with all of the clothing her formal wear, the ranch clothing, with the boots and the hats, a lot of her colorful outfits, and her shoes, one of my favorites, the straw hat with the blue bonnets painted on top, and then her private bathroom that is, again, very reflective of the importance of family, with all of the photographs of those who mattered so much to her. And to her grandchildren and greatgrandchildren, she was known as nini, a very, very special person in their lives. Lady bird johnson had a great sense of history. In fact, during her years in washington, she would often be a tour guide for texans who went to the nations capital. I had the fortune to meet Lady Bird Johnson while working at Harry S Truman National Historic site, and i was very impressed that she wanted to see how the truman story was being interpreted, knowing that one day her story would be told here at the lbj ranch. Susan swain after mrs. Johnsons death in 2007, the ranch was then ceded to the National Park service as its curators, and it is available for you to visit if you happen to be in that part of texas, in the texas hill country. Its well worth the stop. You really get a sense of the johnsons life when youre there. So she died at the age of 94. Sheldon cooper wants to know, how did the country respond to her death . Betty boyd caroli oh, there was an outpouring Cokie Roberts absolutely. Betty boyd caroli respect and love. Cokie roberts and, you know, everybody showed up, former president s and first ladies. And as i say, the and members of congress, and all the official people that you would expect to be there were there. But also this wonderful response of her staff and those secret service men. I mean, seeing them come in was really quite something. But i think also the point that we just heard, the park service gentleman make about her sense of history is something that really we can enjoy so much. And betty has made the point several times, all of this is available to us. All we have to do is go to our computers and mrs. Johnson has made it possible for us to see their home movies, read their love letters, and most important, from my perspective, hear those johnson tapes. She allowed those tapes to be open to the public without knowing what was on them, which is very gutsy, and we have learned an enormous amount about american politics and American History from listening to those tapes. Susan swain and where is she and the president buried . Betty boyd caroli just down the road from the ranch house, in the family cemetery. Susan swain so not at the library, but they chose to be out in the countryside, the country that they loved to go. Betty boyd caroli right. There is a picture of the family cemetery, where his some of his siblings i believe his mother and father are buried there. Its all you can walk from the ranch, to the cemetery, to the birthplace, to the school in 10 minutes, i dont know. Very short time. Susan swain so as we close here, i have a question for both of you, is what should her legacy be seen as among first ladies . Betty boyd caroli i think she was an outstanding first lady who really wrote the book for modern first ladies, what they needed to do to be noncontroversial and yet contribute to a spouses legacy. And it will work for a man, too, you know. Cokie roberts thats right, first guy. But she understood that she had a megaphone and that she could use it for good, and she did that and instructed all of her successors to do the same. Susan swain as we close here, and we do each week, our thanks to our colleagues at the White House Historical association for their assistance in this entire series on the biographies of first ladies. And thank you for being with us once again tonight. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] i stay in the wings and do not come out front to often. This is quite unusual for me, by thank you all for your friendship, your support. I shall remember it always. Thanks for this wonderful welcome. And was the first republican first lady to address a national convention. She traveled more widely than first lady before her. She was chief supporter to her husband, Richard Nixon, and a behindthescenes political advisor. Pat nixon, the sunday night on cspans original series, first ladies image. E and from arthur washington to Michelle Obama, sunday at it 00 eastern on American History tv on cspan 3