Weekend on cspan3. To join the conversation like us on facebook. Cspan3s American History tv, an interview with dorothy height, who served as president of the National Council of negro women from 1957 to 1998. Recorded in 2003, this is from the explorations in black leadership oral history collection, a project codirected by university of virginia professors Phyllis Leffler and julian bond. We are currently airing five of the interviews with prominent africanamerican women. She discusses wednesdays in mississippi, a group ecoorganized in the 1960s, and her work alongside Martin Luther king jr. On the 1963 march on washington. She went on to receive both the president ial medal of freedom and the congressional gold medal. She died in 2010. This is about an hour and a half. Welcome to explorations of black leadership. Thank you for doing this. I want to begin with questions about brown versus board of education. When you first heard the Supreme Court had eliminated segregation in schools, what did you think . Ms. Height i thought we had a new high. I was very excited and i suppose like most people really rejoiced we had reached that point. Mr. Bond what did you think then it would mean over time . Ms. Height i really thought it would mean our schools of the open. Children would be able to go to all schools. Doors would be opened. I thought it was the end of segregation. Mr. Bond what has it turned out to be so far as youre concerned . Ms. Height its been very disappointing. I grew up in pennsylvania. There were no negro teachers. I came to appreciate what it meant to be with students of all different races. Predominantly children who were foreignborn however. It was a very small group of us. But i thought here at last we have Something Like that. One of the things i value is what it meant to me to grow up in a school where i had equal o do whatever i t wanted to do to become something. Now ht this is right it was disappointing at times. Immediately it became counter activities, efforts to not only move forward but to push us backwards. I thought that resistance in itself was so disturbing because they confused the picture. Busing andwas about not about schools. It was not about openness. It was about trying to get new privilege to people who did not deserve it. That i thought was very detrimental. Not just the children and parents but to society. Mr. Bond you enjoyed an integrated education. Ms. Height yes. Mr. Bond in that sense you understand what brown might have meant. Until i was an adult i have never had a negro teacher. So my teachers were interested in me, the parents, boys and girls all shared together. I thought this is what school ought to be like. I thought it last we had it. Mr. Bond the decision to not have an effect on your education , a what has it meant to you in the years since 1954 . Ms. Height kids make me realize i had to work harder it made me realize i had to work harder to make the objectives realized. It made a new base for working because at least we had a way of , and thereregation was no such thing as separate but equal. The elimination of that lay the base for all the work we could do. Until then i think we were working hard but we were up against something that wasnt possible. Segregation was legal. Us atake that off gave working. Mr. Bond was this like a stamp of approval of the work you have been doing up to that point . And would do afterward . Ms. Height yes. They gave you a sense we were on the right track. In my up and even religious experience working with people of different religious backgrounds there was a feeling of importance, of there and how much was no superior or inferior. Mr. Bond there is no doubt from reading your biography that your parents, your mother had in a norm is affecting your life. How did your parents affect you . As a kid and later on . Ms. Height i think for one thing both of my parents were very active in organizations. I think thats one of the i understood the value of organizations. I think my mother was especially helpful to me because she helped me realize i was a good student. I could not just strut around and be proud. I was note understand in competition with anyone but myself. I have had a feeling of appreciation of my responsibility to other people. The other thing as even in our Little Community she helped prepare me for a world and the country in which there was discrimination. She always said to me, hold yourself together. You take care, you think you you think your way through. Pushed to theelt head of the crowd, but she helped me realize because i was always either first or second in my classes, she would say to me, what are you doing to help others . Mr. Bond i remember a story about a boy who cannot remember his recitations. You can remember yours. Speech. Ht he had a i wascher told my mother usually a good girl but i laughed all through this program. I told my mother he was trying to make a speech. He kept saying, he is risen. He couldnt remember it was from the dead. I thought that was the funniest thing. I knew it. Y speech she said to me, well, perhaps if thats so funny to you, you dont need to be in it. She said but if youre going to be there, you have to learn. You have to help the others. Help him with his speech. Not laugh at him for what he can do. You have to help him. I turned out to be the official monitor prompter. Every child would pass their speech to be. As they went up i would sit there and by the time they came to the program i knew all the speeches by heart. What it did for me is let me understand. If you can do yours so much better, you help him get his done. My as been a part of even in my bones. Mr. Bond you said how important organizations were to you. Danger mother introduce you to organized work . Ms. Height yes. My father was the superintendent of schools. My mother was very active in the womens movement. I was active in church groups. Me she wasuced president of one of the clubs. I was the president of the circle, a junior group of that. That is how i got active. It was very helpful to me because it meant i traveled with my mother when she went to clubs. We went to organizational meetings. And Church Gatherings all over. Ms. Height mr. Bond give us a picture over the black womens organized Love Movement was like when you were a girl. What did the groups do . Had us liftingy as we climb. There were hundreds of groups. Oftengroups i always said furnished for our community what the White Community takes are granted. Everyone has a project. Feeding the poor, feeding the hungry, homes for homeless girls. You had to have a specific service in the community. It was also that you had to see what you can do with those who needed it most. I dont think anyone realizes the way in which those clubs they sold Fried Chicken or whatever. Always the money was raised to help someone. They gave baskets at thanksgiving. They sustained programs. Years later when i worked in there were homes all over the city for white girls, there was not a single bed for a black girl who happened to have been homeless or pregnant and who needed care outside of our branch of the ywca. And the white rose club, a little house that the club and manage. They served girls. They helped girls. That was part of our survival, the way in which is groups are organized. I was deep in it. Mr. Bond does this serve as an ample of how people as an example of how people together encompass more than by themselves . Ms. Height and also that different people have different talents. I used to note that sometimes people might appeal to make a speech about it but i always said they could bake a cake that will attract people who had not heard the speech. There was that kind of way in which everybody had a sense they had a contribution. Mr. Bond scholars tell us that en, not black or women women period are more cooperative and men are more competitive. The you find that to be true . Height i find that women women have what i call a humane sense. They are concerned about whats going on with children, with the sick, with the elderly. And they willned join hands. They might have disagreements and whatnot, but when it comes down women dont do get things done. Mr. Bond how to do become engaged in the kind of work that you do today . I know your history, but what led you in this path. You go to college, you finish, you become almost instantly engaged in this kind of work. Was this a carryover from your youth . Ms. Height i often say before i was 25 my life was shaped. I left pennsylvania to go to college. While i was in college i kept searching for groups. I had been very active. President of the pennsylvania girls clubs, a National Association of those clubs. I was active in my church, in my school. On so many different levels. But i was able to make connections with the Christian Youth movement. Active. Harlem i was a number of us formed the harlem youth council. I was active with juanita theson at the naacp to form Youth Committee against lynching. Even during my college days and was very active. In a sense you are tree creating recreating the organizational atmosphere you left behind. Did you find in college there were not preexisting groups that you could join . Ms. Height when i went to college, bear in mind them college in 1929, and when i got there i found the groups that were there did not accept a black person. In fact, some of them i was recruited when i saw my grades on the wall. But i was turned away when i got there. The interesting thing happened and that was at city college they were students like James Robinson. At the union there was James Robinson, john marcel at city college. A group of us at new york university. What we did, we found each other. We kind of made our own group. I belonged to one. They each had a represent a name that represented our african heritage. We did not see ourselves as a caucus. We were needing to find ways to get more understanding of who we were. License use langston hughes, we had the best times in the whole world. Mr. Bond those names your mentioning, James Robinson and Kenneth Clark, they all go on to make a name for themselves in what you generally could call race work. Did you feel your generation was destined to do this or this was your calling . We helped each other understand that we were in college. As tough as it was in the days of oppression we had a responsibility. Exciting to be a part of a group where you had James Robinson who went on to found crossroads africa, or Kenneth Clark who had a role in brown versus board of education, or john marcel it became the assistant at naacp. Spent we worked every week. We had antilynching one time. We were working another time against chain gangs. We had Angela Harnden come to the city. And Janet Robinson wrote a whole at paulservice brothers robesons church. We had armbands. We had a harlem youth council, the harlem Christian Youth council. We would wear armbands. Naacp would hand out a sign that said a man was lynched today. We had 88 youth groups. We would call them and say a man was lynched today and therefore we would go down the times square, where the black armbands and walk around chanting stop the lynching, stop the lynching. We did not let a week go that we and talk about what were going to do. I was very active and became of that time president of the United Youth Group movement. We had what i would call the most invigorating kind of experience. We really worked to feel we were changing society. Mr. Bond he said he had dr. De bois speak. Is it fair to say what you are doing was an extension of his dream of the talented 10th . Ms. Height yes. Mr. Bond he was talking about men. It was peculiar to the time he would reference meant only. But you had no worry about being included . Ms. Height no. Us. E were a number of also i had to say it was at a time of the united front. Lionel and his wife worked for the daily worker, a communist newspaper. We had different political interests. Morell of us became african oriented and more determined to do something about this society. We believed we could. We worked with the American Youth act, which did not pass. But we joined with the American Youth congress to get that passed. Mr. Bond the different Political Tendencies did not upset anyone. You are willing to join in a popular front, a common front. Ms. Height it was the day of the united front. The day we said because we do not absorb each others philosophies, that we are joined together in one purpose. We worked to get people to vote. Powell towith adam desegregate 125th street. We worked with a Philip Randolph who said you had to learn to be concerned for the working people. I learned a lot firsthand about Labor Relations and about social justice, and Economic Opportunity from the activities we were doing. That is why i have often said 25 iby the time i was already had shaped my lifes work. I knew where i wanted to go. Mr. Bond we have been talking about the things he did in a next her curricular activity. Was there anything you learned in school, in the classroom that influenced your life . Ms. Height i always i started out entering the field of medicine. Was going to college and i was rejected after i had two accepted they had negro students. I could wait a year and comment on one of them graduated come in when one of them graduated. So i went on to new york university. I shifted my interests and began to study more. I took some work in religion. Also in the social sciences. One of the things exciting to me was that i had assignments to work in communities. They were deprived. That was a time when no one had very much. I had the opportunity to work in the Community Centers as a part of my schooling. The other thing i would have to say is it was in these groups i belong to, the united Christian Youth movement, where we exposed whoe were exposed to people had a social philosophy. I guess you would call them in many respects social gospel. I was doing one can a study in the daytime and another on the weekend and evenings in these small groups. We did not just go and meet. We studied. Even when Kenneth Clark wrote youth in the ghetto, some of us were part of his studies of what he was doing in the community. Mr. Bond i get the picture that nyu is ferment of Political Action of all kinds. Marxists,nts between socialists, democrats and so on. Is that a fair picture . A Community Just bubbling up with ideas and arguments. Ms. Height and differences. You had to learn to know what you said for. You had to be able to stand up for it. You people who wanted they were trying to indoctrinate me. Me i think it was good for that i had a certain amount of rounding grounding. It also wasnt just emotional. We were studying and we do the difference between dialectic materialism and other philosophies. Life, though we were poor in dollars. We were rich and that experience. I say to young people today who asked me, how do we get included . Do that she got started by giving yourself a start. You have to start by saying what is going on . What is happening to people . When we heard about lynchings, when people like thurgood houston and charles would come to our blood groups and tell us things that were happening, we got into action. Nobody had to tell us. Mr. Bond you were describing a world which i am not sure could exist today. Ms. Height it doesnt. Mr. Bond this combination of the place where you were, the depression around you, the ferment in harlem, agitation against lynching and all these social ills, i dont believe that could occur today. Ms. Height its a totally different climate. I find i have myself finding it hard not to appreciate fully the difference. Know all the time i dont what i would do if i were in Todays Society at 17. The only thing i believe that we do because of the fact that from my childhood i had interest in things. As an 11yearold i had integrate my community center. To try toad a sense make things better. But i dont know because i go through harlem now and i just say this is a very different harlem than what i grew up in. The harlem i grew up in was poor but rich. , we haduke ellington , alla horn leeta horn these things that were happening. All these folks in need of each other. In Todays Society it is much more individualistic. What people want to know my going to get out of it . Somehow or another the conditions under which we were searching for own more meaning to our lives meant that for us it was a matter of saying, what can we do . How can we Work Together . Oriented thanwe we are today. Mr. Bond even as a young girl willing to take a chance. Integrate the community center. Those are signs of leadership. Did you think of yourself as a leader when you were doing that, integrating the Reading Program . Ms. Height i didnt think of it as a leader. Although i found myself usually in any group i was always given some special responsibility. I did think in this way that we as a group, our little harlem group, we saw ourselves as sort of having a responsibility. We delegated to each other tasks to work on. I worked on domestic issues. Someone worked on opening up clinics. Even at harlem hospital we didnt have things we needed. Of itk i did not think as the leader. It was more like i was given leadership. Mr. Bond nonetheless, you are clearly a leader at an early age and it continued on since then. Impulseexamine how this to lead where did this come from . Is a good mothers example . Ms. Height my mothers example, my father. In addition to being a building contractor, he was also the superintendent and things of that sort. He and i were always there on time if no one else. He was what i would say is more than manager kind of person who kept stressing be on time, get yourself properly dressed, do the right thing, etc. But it was my mother who always helped me to relate to the needs in the community and the people. One of the things i think was valuable to me was that as a child, as a student in high school, thats where i said my teachers were all white but they saw i had potential. They all cultivated it. They always giving opportunity. The music teacher let me leave the music when she was itinerant. She came to us once a month. Time, my periods of procedure put me into the speech contest. I was relatively shy. I was a good student but relatively shy. She worked with me to say you have to be able you have good thoughts and many times i would sit in class. She would call on me and say you have the answer . My mother would tell me dont show off and my teacher would say speak up. It was very helpful to me. It helped me to learn how to stand up and express myself, think on your feet. The kind ofedit teachers i had to show a real interest. Along with my mothers constant possibly making the improve. I used to bring my report card home and she would say, what happened here . 92, last time he only had 91. I would say thats the best rate in the class. Said i didnt ask for the class did. One time a teacher came to us on the varsity of Pittsburgh University of pittsburgh. He was a chemistry teacher. At the end of the semester he gave me and 89. My motheri said doesnt understand. I cant take this great home. What did i fail in . He said you tell your mother i dont get anyone more than 89. I almost wanted to take him home with me because i knew my mother would immediately question. I think also what was helpful to when i i always had a and wanteder drive to go to school, go to college. I think for me it was helpful that i was able to sign in for a contest and my english teacher helped me to prepare. Studyingthe library, on the constitution of the united states. It could be on slavery. I chose the constitution and the 13th, 14th and 15 amendments. I was a great reader. After all my reading that is what i chose. It was helpful to me to have a womanr, an Irish Catholic who not only did work with me at the school but she lived down the street from me and coached me and helped me. It also helps me. I say untilting this they are so working on the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments. A helped me get more than knowledge of them and the recitation. It meant i understood what they meant and what they mean in the constitution of the united states. Mr. Bond you mentioned the elks. They have this contest. They have mentioned other groups, the statewide young girls organization. What were the other neighborhood networks, groups that impacted you . Ms. Height my mother used to say to me dorothy, if you join anything else i will take you out of them. I was in the debating society. I was in a lot of musical groups. With two other girls we formed a trio. We sang at other churches. I was active in sports and basketball. Mr. Bond boys rules. Ms. Height i played boys rules and girls roles in high school. In the evenings i played boys rules. I love boys rules much better than girls rules. Mr. Bond whats the difference between the boys rules and girls roles . Ms. Height the girls roles, i was in the center. The court is marked off. You play only within that area. There was a kind of assumption and girls rules that girls are so delicate they cannot run the full court. The guards had more territory and the forwards and the centers. The advantage in boys rules was you could just play the whole court. Mr. Bond girls cannot take with a couple of steps with the ball . Ms. Height thats right. Very limiting. Very gentle. Im so glad now to see we have broken away from all that. Mr. Bond in addition to the church provided you with this opportunity, what did the church in your Community Mean to you . In addition to being an organization that you could perform in, participate in. What did it mean . Ms. Height church was really and it was through the church he got the opportunity to even speak and so on. It also meant we join with other churches. I had the opportunity to work not only with Emmanuel Baptist church but with other churches. They gathered together as churches. As a matter of fact my little trio as we sang in different churches we collected new friends. We became active. The other thing i think is a characteristic of those days was the quality of adults have caring adults. I think that was a very important force in my community. You felt they had the right to correct you or whatever you wish to do. School and way to my a contest. I was about to step on a streetcar. The pastors wife called me and said dorothy where you going to 10 30 in the morning . By the time i got off, the car was gone. By the time i got downtown to take the exam i was too late and i had to come back the next year next month, which means i had to go back and start preparing all over again. But i would not dare have moved on with her challenging me. The high school is sending me downtown. I had to tell that to her. I think it was the quality of attention so many people in the community gave and the encouragement. That is something that is driven me today to be concerned about climatery to create a i call it a culture of achievement a kind of climate in which people expect you to achieve, but they help you. Mr. Bond you are describing was a fairly common phenomenon in black communities than. Then. It is lost for a variety of reasons. Can be reclaimed . Kennedy recreated . Can it be recreated . Ms. Height i think we can have High Expectations. Whenever my memoirs i dedicated into my mother High Expectations. I could have said the High Expectations of so many adults. Likeould meet a person randolph that he would say you have real potential. You have to do soandso. People took the time not just to assume it. They took the time to say to you i hope you will keep working on this. Opportunity to be a part of the group. They would talk to us about taking responsibility. Standing up on your own, standing up for what you believe in. That to me was the heart of it, helping me to see you had to have your own. You were not just following along with other people. One of the things we can do today is to take more time with our young people and take some time with helping them understand that they have potential. It may not always be the same or the same kind, but whatever it is that they can develop they can be what they want to be. They can do a lot if they can just get that. Mr. Bond you said a moment ago today is so different than when i was young, when you were young. We live in very different worlds now. The nature of some of the economic problems seem more severe than was true in the depression. Ms. Height thats true. Mr. Bond the spread of our communities is so much larger than even harlem was. I did not grow in the midst of a drug culture. So many of the forces in our community now are so hurt. The violence. The drugs. All of these are there, for this is one of the reasons we idea of the the black family reunion. Sayng to lift up values in we are not a problem, listen to the people with problems. You people have to feel they are not alone in the community. And they dont have to be taken in by everything trying to get them. I think many think in my day there were forces trying to put it another way. I think many of people today think you had it easy, but they dont know. Its not the same. The lack of money in the ression made it very hard and i know some of the young people, people in my school who got caught up in things simply because it was survival. I think that when i look at myself and realize i had . 25 a transportation and my lunch back and forth to school in new york city, i looked back and say how did i really do it . But i did. Many young people today think naturally it was easier for you. No, it was not easy, but it was the situation we felt that drove us to see what we could do about it. It was not to say this is about me. Something has to be done, lets change the situation. Mr. Bond in all you said it seems to me the biggest difference between then and now is the feeling that i can do something about this. Why is that missing today . Ms. Height i think we have to say some of it is because of the progress weve made. The fact is we do not have legal segregation. It is very hard for people to realize what the struggle has been. It is hard for them to even imagine some of the things we went through even during the 1960s. All of that seems ancient now. Civil rightshink movement was about Martin Luther king having a dream. They live in a different time. They have no connection. I think we have failed this generation. Not having the connected with their own history. I think many have practically no patience with what they are doing. The fences we have made, the doorstep and opened. They went through open doors but they dont how they were opened. They dont know what the struggle was. Feelwho could do more now more in my day we never got quite comfortable with the situation. Mr. Bond is there a way to can make people less comfortable . You can cause them to be uncomfortable about todays circumstances. How can you motivate young and older people to have the kind of commitment you describe your classmates in your cap . In new york having . Drawing these people together to do good works. Why dont we see that today . Ms. Height if the leadership issue. Bringk leaders have to things within the reach of people. Communicate around the issues they understand. Not the broad issues of justice, but the small issues of mandatory sentences. We have to break it down so they can begin to see how the political and social climate in which they live is determining how far they will go unless they themselves if they dont start to do something about it, tohink we have a need there rethink the way we encourage and the way we strive to motivate people. Recently i was talking to a group of young people. They said we never realized that. I said, well, happy sit still long enough to listen to it . Betweenhave to get in all the different messages they are getting. They are getting messages of all kinds. Art, from allom these places. From the media and all. I think the things if we had to say Leadership Today has to ,e willing to step up and risk this is the way. Have you done it this way . Do you see this way is degrading . I think we have to do that. Aen i was 14 i heard poem aboutte that the highway in the low way. Coleman elected to the Pennsylvania State representative. I thought that is really something she is saying. I think many times young people just need someone and need to be in situations where the leadership theirs to speak out the truth. But they are still respected for the fact they live in a different day and you cannot tell them what i did because as a totally different day. I can certainly try to share with them what a difference in made in my life it made my life to find myself looking at it now and saying i learned the different between having a job or a position or being elected to something or appointed to something and having my own purpose sense of purpose and my life work. I learned that from the groups in which i effectively worked. I think many young people today are out there on their own trying to do it. They need to be a part of organizations that have purposes. That defineson roles related to their goals. And can help them find their goals because the way their goals are slated, the objectives, and thats a leadership role that is very much needed in our communities. I think our young people will respond better if we take more of a hand. Mr. Bond let me shift gears. One thing i noted in looking at your life is what seems to me to be a fairly large amount of International Travel for someone of your time and place. Almost immediately after leaving college you are overseas. What do these trips me to you . Ms. Height it certainly meant to me that i was 23. I was the president the Vice President of the youth Christian Movement of north america. There was a conference and i was ,ne of the 10 Young Americans two of us were africanamerican, sent to the world conference of the churches in england. To be chaperoned and cared for by dr. Benjamin mays and his wife. To the exposed to the greatest leaders in all branches of christendom. Tawney teach about equality and what it meant. To lift that out of what i had myrned, other things in oratorical contests, and to have that kind of exposure meant i me in a keyve an ecumenical experience that has made a difference in my life. I dont have any problem with dealing with people of difference. In fact i love it. But i think i learned so much there about issues like war and peace. In the oxford meetings i chose the economic order. That is where i studied inequality. When we listen to all the broad it opened up a world to me that i did not even dream of before. Experiencet kind of and then to return home, that was in august of 1937. To return home in november of wherend go to the ywca they had seen the working in the meetnity, and there to Eleanor Roosevelt on the same i felt there was a purpose for my life. Much that was unusual in the experience that i had to feel responsible. 1937, for the rest of those times, they were a great influence in my life. Mr. Bond i want to talk about the ywca. You go to the ywca. It is focused as one would think on women, improving lives of women. When you leave it has changed its focus to focus almost exclusively on eliminating racism. That seems like a big jump. Ms. Height when i went in in 1944i was a secretary for integration. I had the experience of two years later going to the wasention where the issue really desegregating. Come. Dr. Mays hed to the pure, if said to the group if you have a ose, in lightp of your purpose its your job to write for the time. That was a helpful thing. What i tried to do was to bring into the light of the day those who could communicate. Say that action where they they adopted the interracial charter with some leaving because they were very unhappy about it, but the commitment. By 1970, having done a lot of different things, at a conference for black women he said the ywca had seven purposes, seven objectives as it came to convention. Eliminate poverty, to eliminate war, to eliminate racism, it went on and on. The limit a conference of 500 black women, and that was a risk i had to take because even some black members said why are you calling for a segregated meeting . Met theywomen said i did not have this on the agenda when i went into it. After three days of looking at it in seeing the role women of color had played and realizing there is an organization that in 1895 when it started was a racial branch. There was not any major group drawn from the largely large majority populations in the country that would add a black executive and an institution. Then withll advanced us something we were ready to give up and saying we will work in the full integration of people. We went into the convention and , a lot of ecig like trust our collective power. Lets me see the value of being a staff person, but also taking leadership and not trying to do it myself. But bringing in people who could help the ywca. But also to lift up all those women, from the south and all over, who strongly said given toleratese we cannot talking about the segregation in society, and tolerate it within our membership. That is fine. I have to say i think our organization like that are very important, but i have to credit the fact as i said, if you look at my bio i entered as the secretary for interracial education. After 33 years i retired as a director of the office of racial justice. Weatherws you movement did. Mr. Bond lets talk about ms. Bathoon. Ms. Height 1937. Escort eleanorto roosevelt into a meeting she was holding. It was a meeting of the National Council of prowomen. Andr mrs. Roosevelt spoke, she was driving herself up to hyde park, i took her to her car. She said to me, what is your name . She said we need you. I have been back ever since. From that moment i dont think there was a week for the rest of her life i do not have some sort of direct contact. Tutor, a mentor, a social advisor. Everything. Mr. Bond you met these women at the same time. What about the relationship with Eleanor Roosevelt . Ms. Height and i think 38, i was one of 10 young people invited mrs. Roosevelt invited them to come to hyde park. We spent the weekend with her. I became sort of like the chairman of that group. We worked on how as American Youth, and the conferences were held at Vassar College in 1938, how we work with young people coming from all around the world with her as first lady in hosting this conference. And in helping to shape it. But also, and this was the time of the united front for you have the communists countries coming into the conference. Once again we had to figure out who we were and what we were standing for and had to be prepared to stand up. Mrs. Roosevelt was right there every minute. 6 00. At 5 00 and until her death she was very close to me. Mr. Bond you said something about mrs. Roosevelt. She was driving herself. I can imagine mrs. Bush driving herself. Ms. Height there was a time when the wife of the president would drive her own thunderbird, park it on a harlem street for two hours, go back and get in her own car by herself. She got back in her car and drove off. There was no secret service, no advance. Ishares you the difference in the climate. Mr. Bond this relationship with ms. Bathoon, the key to the National Council. Ms. Height it had only been organized for two years. 1935. Mr. Bond in some ways its a result of the early club work. Ms. Height she had been the seventh president of the National Association of college womens clubs. She said we do not need another federation of local clubs. T we need is he said negro women to stand outside of ofricas mainstream influence and power and have an organization that brings the organizations together. She founded the National Council of negro women as a council of national organizations. We later organized local groups. But those groups are not like a federation. They are chartered by the national body. Mr. Bond this vision of bringing together these preexisting organizations which reached into i imagine every community in the united states, was their opposition . Anyone against this . Ms. Height oh, yes. Even some people were ugly enough to say she organized it because she was no longer the president. As time has gone, here was a woman born in 1875 to slave parents. Collaboration and coalition building. It would be the only way. She organized the organization of organizations. And she also picked up the same theme wehad, kind of a subset. And this is the thing said we need a unity purpose for our unity of action, to leave no one behind. So in a sense, one built on the other. Let me take you to the 1963 march on washington. Othersped convince the to let Martin Luther king speak last. But you arent able to convince them to have a woman speaker. Height i want myself. I took a group of women. We had several meetings. Estimation was, well, the naacp, the churches, the labor unions, all of them have been members. Yes, we dont want our women to speak for those organizations. Speak formen to women. They said, well women are represented. We could not break through that. They stood up and they spoke. Been the end, we just said, well, the purpose of this is too great. The day after the meeting, we march. Eeting after the polly murray and several people ,rote a tremendous document women in the question equality heardly voice for women that they was that of mahalia jackson, who sang the national anthem. They will let us sing, but they wont let us speak. You are doing this in thing. [laughter] i think we felt in the end we did the right thing. But i will to you, i dont think it will ever happen again. Mr. Bond no, im sure it will never happen again. Lets talk about wednesdays and mississippi. The idea comes from polly callan. How did it come about . In 1960 four, bob moses set up the freedom schools. 1964, bob moses set up the freedom schools. The word was out. Husbandy callan, whose and television, was accompanying her husband to england to she wrote to me, part are theshe said, here mixed messages about the freedom schools. I think it would be good if we had interracial teams go into and do some service, carrier message and the like carry our message and the like, and be in support of the gent people who will be down there working. We developed that idea. Together,an and i, set up a whole plan. We trained our staff here we had to have an interracial staff. But the idea was it we would have interracial teams of women, all of whom had have some talent. It wasnt to be a visit. They had to contribute something in the schools. They also had to commit onmselves to preparing tuesday, going out on wednesday. We met separately in a racial groups in the daytime. Met together in the evening as an Interracial Group and left on thursday. But in the course of all of this, they had to agree that they were engaged in solar rights in their community feared mr. Bond there were engaged not only in mississippi, but they had to do something when they return. I imagine a lot of these women were already active. Alreadyht they were active. Benevolent to be active, but to carry the true story of what was happening in mississippi back to the communities. All during that time, it was hard to get the truth out about what can people were doing, what their whole Freedom Movement was about. Thats a support system to group of young people in that movement, but also a base for making connections for people to , in minnesota, you may not have exactly the same problem, but there is some aspect of civil rights you could be working in. And your particular community, you could be helpful. But you also have to be able to what young people are doing to try to bring freedom. To bond was it difficult recruit the white women . Ms. Height we recruited the ones renew. We mistreated volunteering. 114 women went down during the summers. They did the rest. Said i women remember one saying, well, if my husband knew i was in this meeting, he would give me a divorce. She said, but i have to think of my children and my grandchildren. Women,er women, black who, when they came together said, we have never met together to your together before and we will never separate again. So it was to make connections and get these women together. Mr. Bond it was difficult to record the northern white women it went, how difficult was to recruit the southern, quite mississippi women with whom you met . Height we had who later carter in the administration, in response to human rights. Both women are anchors. And those women helped us to get in touch with other women. She and others who were there. Howit was very interesting it widened, so you had white women as well as black women. And when they came together, it was an experience that was even hard to describe. When those women came together and shared with they had been doing during the day, it created a new sense of determination. Times called it. Thewomen had gone behind car turn the cotton curtain. There was an earnestness. That polly same colin and i had felt on the time , when we set down during our debriefing, that saw many of those women would say, even they had not seen exactly what was happening. Mississippi Law Enforcement was treating this. That when we went into when she and i were traveling and went into hattiesburg, we are followed by a car. Church, ainto the cocktail came through the window. Naturally, it fizzled. We were glad it did. A student from overland went to the oregon and sang the hallelujah chorus. The organ and saying they have a logo course. It was not an easy thing the people were doing. It took risks. But there was a sense that we may not be achieving everything, but we felt that there was a nucleus of april there who went on working. Mr. Bond this is one of those things that you cant measure. You dont know what kind of Ripple Effect it has. Undercover it was so , there are not that many records of remembrances about this. I know polly callans daughter is trying to recover some of this. It is a difficult job. Height one of the missing elements is the women in civil rights movement. People often talk about me. Alking with these great men thats true. That was the Leadership Strategy kind of group. That, the marches were predominately women and youth and children. So many things that the women that have not been come to notice. So its got to be very significant to have this story and i looked it up so that people are able to see it in here it and know what we were doing. Bond almost everybody in the pulpit is a man. And almost everybody in the congregation is a woman. Ms. Height i saw that. Mrs. Abernethy and i would be on the platform, but the rest of the audience was predominately women and children. But you know, when you talk about leadership, i think that role thate kind of women often take. I was doing something in brooklyn wants and the woman said we were talking about volunteer leaders and she said whats a volunteer leader . There was a little home that she was taking care of children, but she hadnt identified it as such. I think the important thing is that, as we identified some anyways of people that people take leadership, it is more useful to us. Because otherwise you think of elections. Of heads ofu think organizations. Today, more women are, but women play a different role than men. Ms. Height i also think women are advancing in Public Office and the like, but i like that leadership is one of the ways i like to think of it is capacity and willingness to respond to what is needed. Mr. Bond was it difficult for you to speak out against the nomination of president bush nominee, the woman from california the name escapes me. Was difficult because i worked all my life to advance africanamerican women. As you would just say, my country, right or wrong, it is still my country. I would have to say that she is still my sister, but she is wrong. Therefore, theres no way that i could say that she is a person should not be sitting in the most influential courts in the united states. Mr. Bond let me ask you about vision, philosophy and stab. And style. How do these interact for you . Ms. Height vision is a base to be able see ahead to envision something that may farreaching. For example, to envision a World Without hunger, and also to have a vision of how you might achieve it, so that your vision goallated to an ultimate and not something that is immediately achieved. Philosophy . Ms. Height i think philosophy drives your vision. Your philosophy is that which you truly believe. Dr. Makes say that we believe one thing and do another. And that is not true. Whatever we act on is what we believe. Thosethink philosophy is the beliefs that drive one. Wants, whathich one one feels, but understands what one is committed to. I think that is your philosophy. Mr. Bond and style . Ms. Height i think you will you do it is different. I think the way you do it is different. Leaderople consider a someone he can speak loud and so on and so forth. Thats a good style for speech, but not necessarily leadership. Your style often reflects your philosophy. Mr. Bond what about your vision . Have you had a vision that has guided your work and your life . And has it changed over time . Vision, the thing to which i have committed my life is broad. Drive, like they , the blood boils around certain things mine boils around social justice. Not just for women, but social justice. The recognition of the dignity of every human being. I think, as i look back, i think but it has been the same, with different dimensions as ive gone on. Mr. Bond how do the different dimensions enter into this vision or alter the vision in one way or another . Ms. Height as a child, i didnt know it was social action. Being deniedgainst the chance to swim in a pool. I reacted against the policies they kept me out of the pool because i was black. Mr. Bond so the vision became more refined . Ms. Height yes. Stimulated inore childhood because i witnessed so much of any quality and so much suffering. When i was a student at new york walk through would the height of depression, men sitting in the yards come in the gardens with baskets of apples, trying to sell them for a nickel. And every day, that just disturbed me. When i went to india and ice saw so many people just homeless, and i witnessed a woman having a suffering, there then i realized what the depth of party means an homeless and so on. So everything i touch like that has made me work all the harder, made me feel i had to work that much harder. Mr. Bond it reinforced the vision. Ms. Height reinforced the vision. That we have a world that there is enough for people to half, theres enough of everything. But somehow or another, we have to find ways to make sure that opportunity,their everyone has a chance to develop, to grow. Mr. Bond let me ask you a threepart question on how leaders are made. A, grade people make a great events . B, leaders come out of movements. Events createse leaders for the time. Is any of these more true than the others . Are they all true . Where do read where do leaders come from . Ms. Height well, i dont think i said a fewt minutes ago, people who use andr talents themselves i stress using selves because i believe, even as you talk about that style of leadership, i think it is the way people give of themselves and use themselves to respond to what is needed in a situation. And i think that such leaders authenticity. Leaders are not just elected or appointed. Are in leadership positions. Leadership,nce of one who has never held an ed position, or someone who a stoplight at a corner is needed shows leadership, to save childrens lives. If you look at the essence of theership, i think we put label of later on many people. But im talking about leadership identifyingo ones with something that needs to be done. It and having to to report. Mr. Bond think, if you will come about yourself. Are you a leader because of your ability to persuade people to follow your vision . Or because you are able to articulate an agenda for others to follow . Why are you a leader . Ms. Height i think you need all three. I think you need to be able if you have a vision and you and no one shares your vision, who are you leading . Mr. Bond right. Ms. Height so i think you have to have that capacity and the willingness to try to learn it if you dont have it. You cant just go to the back of the room and let this happen. That the rolenk peopleership is to help clarify their agenda. I often think of Mahatma Gandhi who said the people, when they were trying to restrain him, the people here want freedom and i have to follow them because under leader. In other words, he so with the need was and he also helped to dont thinkgenda i you can hope for something to happen without framing the agenda. You have to affect the agenda helpou have to help you not your agenda, but you have to help the agenda related to the overall need. Mr. Bond have there been times in your life where you felt a challenge to your philosophy, that you felt that your vision ms. Height all throughout my life. Mr. Bond can you tell us a time . Ms. Height i even think sitting in this building of the time the know, said to me, you there were times when i almost gave up because so many people said we dont need Something Like this. People who were antagonistic, as one white man ms. Hyde, you need to be on pennsylvania avenue. You can have a nice office on a side street. Then i knew his vision of me and my people and his view of me and my people. So you have it from those who are real opponents and even those who are close in. I think the most important challenges always to test it back and say is this something i want . Is this just about me . Good this really for the how much of this is related to a social role and not just saw him the head of whatever it is . Do you see . Mr. Bond yes. Ms. Height so you have to go back and test it that way. I have to say, often those who are likeu president kennedy told salon told civil yours king, connor will be best sometimes those who challenge you are helpful because they o test is thistest something related to what israel . And it related to what is real . To question your behavior. I have to see what else is ready to work with us. In a sense, it really strengthens leadership, if you can survive it. Mr. Bond you talked a moment ago about this meeting of black women you had at the ywca. What role has race consciousness played in your work in your life . Ms. Height i grew up, as i said, in a small town, and there is no place to talk about racial pride. But from the moment i left home, when i left for high school and even then, in my high school, i began to get a sense my my mother gave me for education achool negro history book. And i read that. Know, agan to feel, you pride in who i was. By then, you see, it was reinforced in my school. Although we were few, we ,raduated three years in a row first, second, third could so nobody could say that we were inferior. So i had in those early days. Values ink one of the found in my youth, joining with other students, that our focus was always on our heritage, on who we are. And i think having that sense of having deep roots was significant. , iveen i have to say been in silly situations where i was the only negro or the only been ind i learned so many situations where i was the only negro or the only woman and i learned that it is the by the waysometimes, you relate, you act, that you can pave the way for others. Mr. Bond do you see your life as having been centered on advancing race issues . Advancing larger societal issues . Or do you see them as the same . Ms. Height i see them as the same because i think, as i advance the racial issue, i i advancesociety the society. As i advanced race issues and womens issues, looking around the world today, and realize how in the last 20 years women have come through a new day, i theres even in our own country i realize that there is no way to advance the black family without advancing women. Theres no way to advance the advanceand truly without dealing with the issues of race. I think races so dominant in our society. And racism is so deeply rooted that its almost inherent that we have to work on the Racial Society bring the [indiscernible] mr. Bond there are many who youreay to you that living in the past. Race was an issue in the 1960s and it is not now. Ms. Height i would say look back your look at your history. You have the legal base. You have policy in a broad sense, but youve only just begun. We have the laws and lack the enforcement. We have the opening, but we have not the economic strength. Do you have a print style of leadership when youre dealing with groups that are black or white or mixed . Dr. Height i dont have a different style, but i do this. Wherever i am, i try to have the same message. But i learned long ago that i dont have to spell out for most black people the problems are. Theve to spell out direction we are trying to move and the like. But i find that, in spite of all this and youd on have to bear in mind that i spent 40 years working in an organization that was ,s membership was dominantly white, and i learned that i gained a respect and appreciation and acceptance of more the more i was a sane person. Compromising that on my goals. I always have the same goal. Adapt the message so that it can be understood. Women who mail today read about in the paper and i you to know how you changed my life, you opened my and those are predominately that women, then i realize you have to be yourself. People knew what i was saying. Time at the boston convention, a lot of Board Members into me and she said, so know, we have been doing well working on race relations. But now youre talking about racism. And she says that sounds so terrible. And i said, well, let me put it to you this way. When we were talking about interracial relations, we were talking so much about building bridges between people of different races. Though were now pastor that. Racism is so deeply embedded in our history, beginning with slavery that we now have to ask ourselves why did we need the bridges . We have to look at the underlying cause. And thats because it has nothing to do with your being asked or you are being prejudiced or am i being prejudiced. It is within the system we live. Thats why we have to call it racism, for what it is. Interracial activities. But that should not be a goal. That is just a process. That is just a step. And whenever someone says to you we are building the bridges, we have to make sure we know why they are necessary. I think it is the same message, but i wouldnt have to tell well, i might have to tell some black women that, but that was the difference because it was painful to think now we were saying to people they society is and they began to say, im not. And i would have to say you dont have to be. It operates whether you are or not, the banking system, the employment system. You. Fects me as it affects it affects you as it affects me. The difference is that you are in a different power position than i am because you belong to the majority group. I would say the message has to be the same. Society,ays so different from the world that i grow, that you grew up, do we need a different kind of later today . Height i think you need a leader who is able to utilize all the different new media things that are available in i think it requires an adaptation. But i dont think we will make it unless we have people who are well grounded, who have some vision of what the society could be and some real commitment to justice and to equality. Are some theres there way that we, as american society, can nurture and create the leaders that we need . Dr. Height i think we have to. We have to begin with our young people. I think we have to offer more opportunity for young people, to willposed to things that challenge them and that will ofw upon the wealth spring values that we know will be intrinsic and important for their development. I think we have no alternative. In my book, i say i write it for the future generations because i think they will need it. Mr. Bond what was that grade saying that lisbeth soon used to say . In her last will and testament she said, i leave you love. I leave you faith. I live you hope. I leave you respect for the use of power. I leave you the challenge of developing confidence in one another. I leave you the responsibility to our young people. Im always interested the she did not say our responsibility for our young people. She said to our young people. And i always feel that our responsibility is to our young people, to help them understand not only who they are and what the struggle has been, but how they are, as she put it, they are the future. That the future doesnt begin later. Their future begins now. I always like to say to young people you are not the young people you are not the leaders for tomorrow. You are the leaders for today. You are the youth leaders for today. And what you do is youth leaders will help repair you to be leaders later in your life. Dorothy height, thank you so much for this. Are watching American History tv, 48 hours of programming on American History every weekend on cspan 3. Follow us on twitter for information on her schedule and to keep up with the latest history news. Sunday night, on the presidency, Catherine Clinton talks about what happened to presently can spam the after his in a his assassination. Here is a preview. April 21, 1865, one week after his assassination, a funeral train began to escort president lincoln and his son. Americanbraced by the public. Americans were enthralled by this historic loss and assassination of the president. Those who called again husband and father. The link is that were left behind suffer the loss of a man who came