Transcripts For CSPAN3 Biden 20240704

The seventh Committee Oversight and investigation will come to order, the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. I do want to take a moment, and a point of personal privilege and offer that to my colleague, mr. Green as well. But i want to acknowledge, somebody who has been an integral part of our team here at the oversight subcommittee and it is rachel, chief Oversight Council for the past 16 months, she previously had been with the waste and means committee, she is going to some other place a little bit north of us. I here it is on a campus, some other building over there where they might do some important stuff, called the senate. And shes going to be going over the Senate Banking and committee. We deeply appreciate your service, rachel, you have been a pleasure to work with, youve been an amazing professional, how you have worked through some tough issues and we just want to say thank you on behalf of myself personally, sean, my team in the entire committee, we just want to say thank you for your service and we know youre not going far, and im sure our paths will be crossing again. Blessings and all the best to your future and with that, im happy to acknowledge my colleague as well. Thank you mr. Chairman. This is one of those moments of bipartisanship. Im honored to acknowledge the outstanding work of rachel as well, so thank you for your service. Is a former staffer, i know youre only good as the people you surround yourself with, and she has been excellent. So, thank you again. With that, this hearing is entitled moving the money part two, getting answers from the Biden Administration on the Iranian Regime support of terrorism, all members will have five legislative days with which to submit extraneous materials to the chair for inclusion of the record. I recognize myself for five minutes to give an opening statement. Assistant secretary rosenberg, deputy special envoy, thank you for appearing before the subcommittee this morning, your testimony is significant to this subcommittee and continues to investigate how the Iranian Regime accesses money around the world, due to relaxed sanction enforcement and waivers. Additionally, we hope you can shed light on why a new waiver was necessary for the iraqi electricity sales and how the Biden Administration monitors compliance of sanctions around the world and as i said during our last hearing, i dont believe this topic should be partisan, however i do believe in accountability. It is vital that our oversight work is informed with the collaboration and testimony directly from agencies in an open and transparent setting not behind closed doors. Again, thank you for your willingness to be here today. As we documented in our previous hearing, iran continues to be a leading state sponsor of terrorism, facilitating illicit activities around the globe and we are seeing these reports daily regarding our own troops in the region. Octobers attack on our ally israel is a stark reminder that in order to prevent further atrocities, we must increase, not relax pressure on the Iranian Regime. Iran sanctions have been a significant component of u. S. Policy since irans 1979 islamic revolution. And history tells us that they work, for example the Previous Administrations maximum Pressure Campaign cut oil exports from iran reducing tehrans ability to fund attacks against americans and our allies. In contrast, the current demonstration has adopted a different strategy, this past september is a deal with the Iranian Regime to get american hostages, President Biden waived u. S. Sanctions to allow for the transfer of 6 billion of iranian funds from accounts in south korea to qatar. While the funds were not only used while they were only to be used for humanitarian purposes, there are reports that the Iranian Regime has found and exploited ways around those restrictions. Regardless of what the restrictions are placed on these transferred funds, iranian officials themselves have signaled that this money is fungible which is confirmed by the iranian president , abraham riesi, the Islamic Republic of iran will decide what to do with this money. Believing that the money will go to benefit iranian citizens, that might be a bit naove, the white house and my colleagues on the other side of the aisle attempt to dismiss the significance of these waivers, ensuring that iran will not get access to these transferred funds, the reality is, they likely will at some point if they havent already. Colleagues will use this opportunity to point fingers at the past administration instead of acknowledging that under this president , iran has gained ground and grown in their influence. I will note that the Obama Administration, the Trump Administration have been operating under this, but we saw a decrease in those sales and that is what this whole program was about, to wean places like korea Office Iranian oil, the American People expect the representatives in washington to stand up to those that wish us harm. Iranian proxies continue to attack american troops and allies with little if any accountability or response ability from this administration in my opinion. As chair of this subcommittee, i intend to use congresses oversight and authority to hold our government in the Biden Administration accountable, the status quo is not acceptable, american lives have been lost, theres been 66 troops and contractors that have been killed in recent days. And i look forward to having an open and honest dialogue this morning and with that im going to yield back to balance my time. Thank you. The chair recognizes the Ranking Member of the subCommittee Oversight, he has requested four minutes for opening statements. Thank you, i appreciate greatly your desire for accountability, i respect greatly your desire to investigate fungibility. I do believe that President Biden is an honorable man, i believe that President Biden has followed the law, i believe that what he has done for humanitarian purposes is something other president s have done in a similar way. I believe that the 6 billion have not gone to, and i think we will get evidence, to iran, the money would never go to iran. It would be utilized to make purchases for humanitarian purposes that could benefit people in iran. I think that this quest for accountability is something that we should pursue. I dont think we should start with just the second hearing however. I think we need a third hearing i think we need a third hearing because we need to take a look at the money that has gone to hamas. The cnn news story, in 2018, qatar, the same country that would aid and assist with the humanitarian support to the people in iran. In 2018, qatar began making Monthly Payments to the gaza strip, some 15 million was sent to gaza and cash filled suitcases. Now, this cash money, going into the gaza strip, into the hands of hamas, this was delivered by the qataris through israeli territory after months of negotiation with israel. Al, what is interesting about this, in doing this, 15 million, and by the way, when i say dollars, i literally mean dollars, u. S. Dollars, not canadian dollars. In doing this, the u. S. Was aware of the qatari payments and this was on president trumps watch, to hamas. This is per a former Senior State Department official. And also, this allowed president , Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to avoid the pressure of peace talks, because he could indirectly keep hamas in power. And in so doing, he would have the perfect enemy. The perfect scapegoat. Somebody that does not want israel to exist. And as a result of not wanting israel to exist, he could always say, i dont have a partner to negotiate with. But, while he is saying this, he is allowing millions in cash. We dont have to talk about fungibility. Millions in cash to go directly to hamas. I think that we ought to investigate mr. Trumps actions or the administrations actions. I dont think we can limit these things to the lawful actions of President Biden. This is more than probable cause to investigate. I would hope, mr. Chairman, that we would treat the Trump Administration with a similar desire to have accountability and find out what happened to that cash, suitcases of cash. I yield back. The gentleman yields back, and i will note that i believe ms. Rosenberg, and im not sure about mr. Paley, but career employees, correct . I may have had it reversed, so you have the ability to ask them that, the chair recognizes the Ranking Member of the committee for an opening statement. Thank you very much. Mr. Green, under the Biden Administration, the u. S. Has maintained the most extensive set of comprehensive sanctions on iran, the Biden Administration has wrapped up pressure significantly, since the Trump Administration by designing sanctions for hundreds of additional entities for activity related to iran including illicit sale of iranian oil. Further, President Biden successfully negotiated a temporary ceasefire in the return of hostages taken by hamas. This is the kind of steady leadership that America Needs in an increasingly unsteady world. While im interested in working across the aisle, with the administration to ratchet up pressure against iran and in any way possible, the accusations that the Biden Administration is somehow weakening sanctions against iran are simply false and are not conducive to productive conversation on these issues. I hope we can clear up much of that misinformation. And i think you and i yield back. So, today we welcome the testimony of elizabeth rosenberg, assistant secretary rosenberg is the assistant secretary for terrorist financing and financial crimes. Mr. Paley is the deputy special envoy to iran and we want to thank you for taking the time to be here in person today and without objection, your written statements will be made as part of our permanent record. Assistant secretary rosenberg, you are recognized for five minutes for your oral remarks. Thank you chairman huizenga, Ranking Member green and members of the committee, a patient the opportunity to speak on what the u. S. Department of treasury is doing to combat financing, october 7th was a day of horror, the brutality of the terrorist attacks carried out by hamas against israel killing indiscriminately, sparing neither children or the elderly, was a somber reminder of the threat posed by terrorist organizations like hamas. It is my response ability as the assistant secretary for terrorist financing and financial crimes to identify and disrupt terrorist financing in the United States and abroad. Since the attacks, the treasury has doubled his effort to identifying the finances of hamas and other iran backed terrorist groups. Hamas has traditionally been able to raise funds for its terroristic activities from an array of sources including taxation, donations, a portfolio of investments across africa and the middle east, and direct support from iran. The u. S. Treasury department has historically used the full scope of its authorities to impede hamass funding, sanctions designations of the groups leaders and investments span over two decades. Recognizing the dangerous role that iran plays in destabilizing the region more broadly pray treasury has sanctioned more than 1000 individuals and entities connected to the Iranian Regime and it proximities to date. Since the october attacks, treasury has released three separate sanctions focused on hamas designating over 50 additional individuals and entities linked to hamas and iran across multiple jurisdictions and today, just this morning, treasury has announced another tranche of sanctions on hamas entities in connection with international partners. However, hamas leaders live and move freely in qatar and elsewhere, topically soliciting funds and enjoying financial services. Therefore, in addition to sanctions designations, disrupting hamas is International Financial networks requires international action. In the wake of the hamas attacks, treasury reached out to counterparts across the middle east and europe to convey the administrations support for israel and the intent to use all the tools that are exposed to disrupt hamas including the terrorist Financing Targeting Center which we probably convened among a number of golf partners around saudi arabia in october. Treasury secretary nelson recently traveled to turkey to discuss the need of turkish efforts to release hamas funds. The deputy secretary spoke with his european counterparts in october to press partners to investigate entities with possible ties to hamas. Treasury has also had technical outreach to our partners around the world which has led to complementary actions by australia, european union, japan, united kingdom, others to designate hamas related targets through their own domestic authorities. Treasury has engaged the private sector both in the United States and abroad to refine the red flags and indicators of terrorist financing and underscore the imperative to report and freeze terrorist funds. Alongside these counter illicit finance activities, treasury has a significant role to play in addressing the ongoing humanitarian crisis in gaza to ensure that our Financial Measures do not negatively impact legitimate aid going to the people of gaza. Treasury has had close engagement with representatives of nongovernmental organizations, international organizations, and u. S. Government humanitarian assistance on these matters. Treasurys response to hamas and its funders over decades has been brought and aggressive, as this committee fully appreciates hamass attacks and their relationship with iran, as a threat to the safety and stability not only of israel but to the region and to american interests. All of us here share a common interest, preventing acts of terror. Secretary yellen has spoke about how to confront these challenges, by meeting all of our financial commitments and adapting laws to meet the challenges posed by new and emerging Financial Technologies and look forward to working with members of this committee on these issues and im happy to answer your questions. Thank you. Thank you, and with that, we will return to mr. Paley, you are recognized for five minutes. Thank you. Chairman huizenga, members of the committee, thank you for inviting us here today, we welcome this opportunity to discuss iran, one of the most persistent threats we face, the Biden Administration used around as an adversary and the leading state sponsor of terrorism, we will continue to take the actions necessary to counter the threats it poses and our approach is framed within this context. Across the federal government, we are confronting iran and pushing back against its destabilizing activities. We are coordinating with allies and partners to enhance our already Strong Military deterrent. We are implementing bidens sanctions and economic pressure and utilizing strategic messaging to make clear irans behavior will not be tolerated, will be punished and that tehran will be treated on the International Stage absent a shift in its policies. This result has been on full display since the horrific hamas terrorist attacks on israel on october 7th, the subsequent attacks by iranian baked proxies on personnel and facilities in the region and iran enabled attacks on commercial shipping in the red sea. We view iran as complicit in the attacks against us by its proxies and we will continue to hold it accountable. The president and the secretary of state has been unequivocal about our support for israel and israels right to defend itself against terrorism. And the Biden Administration has been consistent in our efforts to counter irans long standing support for hamas, hezbollah, and militia groups. Our bolstered presence in the region has sent a clear message that this is not a time to take advantage of the situation and President Biden has shown he is prepared to defend personnel and interest. While our priority remains supporting israel, countering irans support for terrorism and the reason region and addressing the humanitarian crisis in gaza, we cover the activities that are antithetical to our interests and values. We are confronting the Iranian Regimes against current and u. S. Former officials, as well as human rights defenders, including on u. S. Soil. We are using all the tools at our disposal to expose and disrupt irans expanding military partnership with russia alongside our partner and i lies. We are standing with the people of iran, and on the nuclear front, President Biden is absolutely committed to never allowing iran to acquire a Nuclear Weapon and has been clear we will remain prepared to use all appropriate measures to do so. Irans unjust attention also represents a threat and that is why we continue to stress to all americans, do not go to iran. President bidens secretary Antony Blinken had been clear there is no higher priority than the safety and security of americans and the Administration Stands by the deal that brought five innocent americans and two of their family members home. This deal was about reuniting these americans with their loved ones. As a part of this arrangement, we facilitated the transfer of 6 billion in restricted iranian funds held in south korea to restricted accounts in qatar for humanitarian use only, not a penny of this money has been spent and these funds will not go anywhere anytime soon. This does not change anything about our approach to iran. They remain an adversary and we will continue to confront it as such. With respect to qatar, its relationship with hamas has been well known to multiple israeli governments including the current government going back many years. It has been and remains extremely helpful in securing hostage releases. At the same time, we have discussed with leaders that there is no going back to the status quo of october 6th and they expressed their agreement. With respect to the waiver secretary Antony Blinken signed on november 14th, the 20th such waiver across multiple demonstrations for iraq to pay for electricity imports in support of their Energy Independence, under these waivers, no money has been or will be permitted to enter iran and any notion of the contrary is false, these funds can only be used for the purchase of food, Agricultural Commodities, medicine, medical devices and other nonsexual transactions. We do not believe that restricting the availability of humanitarian goods to the iranian people would decrease irans support for terrorism, iran has proven they support destabilizing terrorist activities, and since we do not expect any change in their behavior from the steps, our approach is similarly not going to change. I close by reaffirming the administrations commitment to addressing irans continued destabilizing behavior unilaterally and with our partners. Thank you. Thank you for that, and before i get to my questions, i want to emphasize as well, the u. S. Citizens that still go to iran is stunning to me. Recently i had the swiss ambassador to iran in my office, she and the swiss act as our on the ground liaison since we do not have diplomatic relations, they know of tens of thousands of our citizens who are there and they suspect that it may be more, so if anything, if we want to talk about bipartisan agreement, please do not go to iran, so we the government and we as citizens arent ever put in that situation, so i wanted to at the size that, that is a Public Service announcement from the oversight committee, if thats okay with the Ranking Members. Im going to start with my questions with assistant secretary rosenberg. What is the Biden Administrations policy reason for allowing the transfer of money from my rocky banks to iraqi banks, and to be converted from dinar to euros. Basically i want to know why and secondarily, who requested this move . Thank you for the question, i appreciate the opportunity to speak to this. As a point of cliff occasion, the money was earned in euros so it never changed, there was never a transaction, it was earned in euros. What do you mean by earned in euros, this was electricity what was sent from iran to iraq, they paid for it in euros . That is correct. Okay, and it is my understanding that the law says it is meant and intended to be in the local denomination. I will defer to my colleague from the state department to discuss the waivers that were put in place, originally by the last administration that allowed for iraq to Purchase Energy from iran. So they havent been converted in euros because they were in euros is your testimony . Yes. Okay, why is that necessary . The iraqis have the opportunity to pay for that in either dinar or euros. As we have discussed, so the money, whether it is in italy, france or was in germany, is in euros, is your understanding. It is in euros. Why is among one of the countries when the receiving waivers. We have worked with the institutions to create the structure for restrictions on these finances. Do you have greater confidence than you do in the qatari Banking System or the french baking system . I think we are here todays to discuss funds in qatar, we have worked very carefully but the waiver says, italy and france, france twice, and germany, curious why germany is no longer in that waiver. I will happily defer, these are state department waivers so i defer to my colleague to speak to the text of the waiver, but with respect to the confidence that we have in the Financial Institutions in qatar, that hold this money, we have worked on creating a structure for the restriction of these funds and a whole series of levels of compliance in order to examine the money and and theres no written agreement on that, there is no letter, but have there been any humanitarian transactions facilitated from the iranian funds held in oman. There have been two transactions. Okay, i know mr. Paley said there have been none out of qatar. Any issues or problems identified in the transactions facilitated from the iranian funds held in oman question . Im familiar with some matters related to the Financial Institutions, we have prepared a response to that and that will be forthcoming i believe today, it would be inappropriate for me to speak in an open setting about the Financial Institutions and detail, although we are happy to speak more about that particular matter in a closed setting. This is yes or no, youre not giving us any information, have there been problems or issues with those transfers . The transactions, we have confidence in the series of restrictions that we have in place and the Due Diligence around the mac ms. Rosenberg, you are sliding into bureaucrat speak now, you are going soft around the edges on this. It is a simple question, your answer can be what i interpret as, i cant answer it in this open setting but, have there been problems . I appreciate the question and we are happy to in a closed setting speak more about the particular transactions. So we will take that as yes. My time has expired, and with that im going to recognize at the request of the Ranking Member subcommittee, the full committee Ranking Member, the gentleman from california. Thank you very much. Mr. Paley and ms. Rosenberg, the United States had a long standing bipartisan policy to explicitly exclude certain humanitarian activities from sanctions restrictions, specifically humanitarian acceptance allowed for trade and Agricultural Commodities, edison and medical devices. Such exceptions are reflected in the legislation and executive orders that form the United States sanctions programs, including those related to iran. These humanitarian exceptions reflect basic respect for all human life and they are also important to our Broader National Security interest. Right now is a very serious humanitarian crisis for gaza and although the Biden Administration was able to successfully negotiate a temporary ceasefire to allow for more humanitarian assistance, but much more is needed. Can you discuss the importance of humanitarian exceptions in the context of what is happening in gaza and u. S. Strategic interest in the broader region . What would an illumination of humanitarian sanctions, and what that would mean for the innocent facility is civilians in gaza . Thank you for the question. That is correct that the ability, the exceptions to pay for Agricultural Commodities are a matter of longstanding policy, they are enshrined in congressional statute over years, over many programs, over success of congress, and executive authority as well over a variety of administrations. And as you say, it reflects respect for human life, it respects core values of congress, of the administration about providing for meeting basic human needs. These exceptions that exist, ability to pay for humanitarian goods, apply across an array of sanctions programs, so to the extent that there is a need, for example, you are noting in gaza, are exceptions exist there as well, which is to say that sanctions should not be and we will work so they cannot be here, restrictions on the provision of humanitarian assistance there as elsewhere. One note i would add, given that we are here to discuss iran and its support for terror including through proxy groups in the region and are concerned about the potential for diversion of humanitarian aid, it creates the necessity for us to work diligently to ensure that humanitarian aid is restricted and we have great clarity on the fact that it should be used for humanitarian aid and not diverted. Thank you, mr. Paley . Thank you very much. I would reiterate what secretary rosenberg said in terms of this demonstrations commitment of support on humanitarian issues, which echoes support across multiple administrations for addressing humanitarian issues and also having these humanitarian bouts in our legislation that allow for, with the proper Due Diligence, humanitarian transaction to go to people across the world, including in areas where we have very strong disagreements about their policy approaches. Since october 7th, resident biden, secretary Antony Blinken has emphasized their support for israel and israels right to defend themselves, including against iranian backed terrorism. At the same time, President Biden and secretary Antony Blinken have emphasized their focus on humanitarian support to gaza. Thank you. My colleagues believe President Biden has weakened sanctions, but my understanding is he has only increased sanctions, in fact, the two transaction waivers that are the focus of this hearing are carried over from the Trump Administration. Can you please confirm that these are the same sanctions waivers from the Trump Administration that have been continued by the Biden Administration, is that true . Thank you very much. Yes, in terms of the waiver with regards to iraq and iraqs purchases of electricity from iran. This is the 21st time this waiver has been issued, the 20th renewal across administrations. So, this administration has been very clear of our support for iraq and that is what the waiver is about. Im happy to get into more detail. The gentlemans time has expired. I will let you finish the sentence but the ladies time has expired. Thank you, i yield back. With that, the gentleman from texas, mr. Sessions is recognized for five minutes. Thank you very much. What is happening today is that this subcommittee under the leadership of our young chairman who is trying to ask questions because as you know, as required by law, there is a report that was issued to congress. It was only one sentence in the report regarding the payment transferred of authority in the most recent november iraqi electric waiver. So i have a copy of your statement here and the statement says the secretary also certifies that france, italy and oman faced exceptional circumstances, preventing them from significantly reducing their petroleum products, purchases from iran. But, look, i get it with france, but italy has reserves in 1. 3 of what it already uses. I dont know what the exceptional and significant is there. Oman has proven reserves of 79. 4 times its annual consumption. And yet, this secretary has chosen to for the United States congress into believing significant and exceptional, rather than providing the data and information. So, the problem is, that we have been around for a while and remember that the Obama Administration, five different times argued the case that it can only give iran cash, billions of dollars and the only way they could do it is in cash. Well, we know that you cant follow the cash. We dont know where that went. The Obama Administration argued, but we are for the israelis, but kept giving billions of dollars of cash. Hamas only makes, about 500 million per year and yet these administrations from granted the democratic side, give billions of dollars cash to the iranians, just go give it out, theres no way to follow the money. Mr. Paley, theres no explanation in this report as to why it necessitated the payment transfers and i gave you two minutes. I would like for him to answer the question of what should have been in this report. Thank you very much mr. Congressman and thank you for the opportunity. Im sure you are delighted with it. We welcome the opportunity because at the heart of it, what this waiver is about is our support for iraq, across a ministrations we have issued in renewed his waivers. Then why did you blame oman in exceptional circumstances and significant, why did you use those terms for someone that has 79 times what their annual needs are . Thank you for the question, over time, multiple administrations have approved and renewed these waivers to allow iraq to continue to purchase electricity from around. Overtime, money accrued in these accounts that are in iraq and are subject to all the restrictions that have remained in place because we have not lifted any sanctions against iran. Overtime, as this money has accrued , iran has sought to use this as a point of leverage over iraq and pressured iraq to release this money, to get it back in certain ways. And iraq has stood firm. With this waiver, with the previous waiver, we have sought to stand firm with iraq as it continues to improve its Energy Independence but work with iraq to get these iranian funds out of the restricted accounts in iraq where iran is able to leverage iraq to release this money or transfer it in a way that would potentially not be subject to all of the restrictions that are in place i think your use of terms and hiding in my opinion behind this need for humanitarian support and all these things, we are dealing with americas greatest terror, and that is the iranians and you are getting them cash. I yield back my time. Thank you, with that, the woman from texas, ms. Garcia is recognized for five minutes. Thank you mr. Chairman and thank you for the witnesses today. I echo many of the comments made from some of my colleagues in condemning the rise of anti semitism, islamophobia and hate and all forms in the United States and abroad. Everyone in this room and across the world saw the gruesome images and heard the heartbreaking stories of those impacted by the october 7th attack on israel by hamas. Attacks like these reinforce that the United States must maintain its standing Global Leadership abroad and only strengthened during the Biden Administration. Terrorist groups like hamas and hezbollah, making u. S. Sanctions on iran critically important, we heard testimony today that they focused on two waivers granted by the United States earlier this year. So i want to inquire specifically further about the 6 billion iranian funds transferred to qatar. Ms. Rosenberg, the secretary told congress that the u. S. And qatar have agreed to effectively block the funds and on a casebycase application, the money would be spent under the current arrangement and denied for the foreseeable future. Would you provide specific examples of oversight in place, within the humanitarian channels in place to prevent any funds from being used for terrorist financing . I think mr. Paley said that not one penny has been spent. Thank you for the question. It is the case that there have been no transfers out of this, from the 6 billion some held in qatar Financial Institutions. So i will offer an explanation of the measures in place to prevent the diversion to non humanitarian purposes. Theres three levels of controls on this restricted funds. In the first instance, the Financial Institutions themselves apply their own know your customer and Due Diligence requirements. In certain instances, they have adopted a policy to potential recipients of thumbs. These would be firms engaged in agricultural activity, medicine, and medical device supply companies for example. So, these firms, the Financial Institutions have also adopted a policy of only letting existing account holders be in the position to receive the funds which is to say those that have already been on boarded and vetted for customer awareness. So that is one level, the intensive and enhanced Due Diligence at the Financial Institutions on top of that comes the restrictions from the european union. So these are the kinds of controls, know your customer and antiMoney Laundering controls upon institutions that operate within the eu. This is because as noted previously in questions with the chair, the funds are in euros, which means that there is a necessity, when clearing euro transactions, to be in line with european policies on antiMoney Laundering and countering the financing of terrorism. The second layer of controls has to do with european standards, a third level of control has to do with the United States and the restrictions that we and the Treasury Department place on these accounts on these restrictive funds. I will note that there is no u. S. Nexus to these funds, nor has there been at any point, nevertheless, we have imposed our own restrictions on these accounts in these institutions and this involves our own anti Money Laundering and countering the financing of terrorism restrictions. It requires the Financial Institutions to notify the u. S. Treasury department whenever they seek to engage in any transfer back to the original point, no transfers have so far occurred. No transfers have occurred. That is correct. And mr. Paley, do you concur or have anything to add to ms. Rosenbergs response . I concur with her response, thank you. And not one penny has been spent. Not one penny. Correct. I think it is worth repeating because that seems to be a point that some dont seem to hear, not one penny has been spent. Exactly, not one penny has been spent. Okay, thank you. With that, the vice chair of the committee, mr. Rose from tennessee is acknowledged for five minutes. Thank you witnesses for being with us today. Mr. Paley, how has the placing of u. S. Special envoy to Robert Malley on unpaid leave affect your offices ability to effectively function . Thank you for the question. As the deputy special envoy for iran at the state department, in charge of the daytoday implemented policies, nothing in terms of our implementation of that policy, we work across the department and across the interagency to continue to advance resident biden and secretary Antony Blinkens focus on countering iran, which remains a top adversary and sponsor of terrorism. Can you provide any clarity as to why mr. Malley security clearance was suspended . Unfortunately im not in a position today to speak to personnel or security clearance issues. Is that something you perhaps could answer in a classified setting . I know the department is engaged with this committee and other committees on certain issues related to this case, but today again, im not in position to speak to the security clearance. If it is possible to get more clarity on that in that setting, we would certainly appreciate it. We will certainly take the question back, thank you. In september, the department of treasury established humanitarian channel and qatar, we are all familiar with that action to administer 6 billion in iranian assets from south korea, it is described as a way to further facilitate the flow of humanitarian assistance to the people of iran. The assistant secretary, why did treasury decide to create a humanitarian channel and is this a common mechanism for treasury . Thank you for the question. As to why, i would be happy to defer my state department collie, given that the creation of this particular mechanism was pursuant to the exchange of detainees, between iran and he the United States. In the last administration, there was an effort to establish a swiss humanitarian channel to pursue the same goal, which is to say, to take iranian funds, highly restricted, and that could be used only for humanitarian purposes subject to intense vetting. What i just described in the prior questioning. So there is precedence for this. This is another example that builds on Lessons Learned and is in a different jurisdiction. So practically, and mr. Paley, i will let you clarify, but is there a stark difference between a humanitarian channel and other escrow accounts that are available to iran for humanitarian trade purposes . Either one of you. I can answer that. It is the case that theres special conditions around humanitarian channel understood as such, which is to say the establishment of such channel is exclusively for, designed and established exclusively for humanitarian payments and as i was noting before, that can be the case that certain potential recipients of the funds are pre vetted, they can only be customers of an institution that is designed for that purpose. Generally speaking, the u. S. Law policy and sanctions allow for payments, as well as for other countries subject to intensive sanctions and other programs to be able to pay for humanitarian transactions but this is a particular channel established with conditionality around it. Even though it could be permitted to pay for humanitarian goods in a different account but subject to, that would not be an account established exclusively for those purposes. Give us greater sense of what data treasury is relying on to ensure that the humanitarian channels are the most effective way to get the appropriate assistance to iranian citizens. How are you measuring that . What is the data source you use to measure that effectively . Thats an interesting question, i would offer that our highest purpose here is to the mac and the purpose that guides our policy overall is to ensure that iran does not have access to money it can use for terror and destabilization. Our time has expired, but i would appreciate it if you might expand on that for the record. Thank you. I yelled back. With that, the Ranking Member from texas, mr. Green is recognized for five minutes. I reserve and move to the next available member for questioning. We are sorry, we are going to have you, this will be our last, so unless we are willing to do a second round which im happy to do. Mr. Chair, i will refer you to the committee rules, and i will quote, the chair shall so far as practicable to the Ranking Member with respect to the order of recognition from minority members, and i reserve and ask that you go to a member who is prepared to speak on your side. Happy to engage in this conversation about the rules, but you have control of your side of the aisle. If you dont have any more members, you are the last one so therefore, it is your turn. I have more members on my side, and that is the discretion of the chair, so im not doing anything funky with the rules, it is your turn. I know you would like to have the last word but, that is not how this works, we have more members on this side, the majority is going to get the last word. So the gentleman can bypass his ability to have a question, im happy to go to a second round of questioning because i know i certainly have more questions. So, does the gentleman agree to a second round . The gentleman would ask that the chair adhere to the rules and in so doing, respect my right to pass. And i appreciate your highly technical terminology but, this is in my opinion something that is appropriate under the gentleman will understand that i am adhering to the rules. You have the Ranking Member gophers. You always go last on your side of the aisle. If we are ending this hearing it is the majoritys right. As we alternate the gentleman from pennsylvania is going to it is the Ranking Members choice as to whether he wants to claim his five minute time. We have deferred to the Ranking Member on his side. We have given him the ability to choose to have the full Ranking Member. Hold on. Please tell me that you recognize how foolish and childish this is. Allow me to respond to that. It was not necessary for you to use the term, foolish and childish. Hold on just a moment. Ive been very respectful of you. Now you will respect me. Gentleman knows i have full respect. Of ski foolish and childish is not a way to address a member of congress. Is sees me, sir. I was referring to the staff pinus that was dripping our proceedings. I dont think the you refer to the staff. You can do it. I would say to you that is inappropriate of a member of congress. With the gentleman like to proceed . Gentleman, the members, i reserve. Gentleman, just be clear, the gentleman is forfeiting his five minutes. The gentleman from pennsylvania will be recognized and that will be the end of the hearing. That is your choice. I appeal the ruling of the chair. I havent done anything yet. Im giving you your options or we can continue on the second round. Im happy to then go back. Any members here are happy to do that. I will recognize you fewer your for your five minutes. I will recognize the job and from pennsylvania for five minutes. The gentleman from pennsylvania is done the hearing is done. What is your choice . Will you so kindly receive a question as chair backs the gentleman from pennsylvania would be the very last person. Unless we have more members on our site or your side. Would you hold for a moment . I would be happy to. For the fine folks on c span that are riveted on what has been going on with the discussion of our committee rules. Tradition is that we alternate, majority to minority. The majority always starts, the minority always closes. That request has been to be changed. I have an understanding with the Ranking Member now. Running to the rest of our committee members, the Republican Committee members. He will then claim the last five minutes of questioning, at which point i will grant him an extended time for a closing remark. At which point i will then have that same amount of time for my Closing Remarks to end the hearing. It is now the gentleman from pennsylvania, recognize for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. You say that 6 billion will only be used for humanitarian purposes. Even though the iranian president said they will use it for whatever they want. Is the iranian president not to be trusted in his words . I would certainly not believe everything that the iranian president says. Okay. So the iranian president should not be believed. You just pick and choose what you believe him and dont believe him . We do not trust the iranians. We view them as an adversary pick why do you think the aid would not be used for other purposes. You understand what the term means . Probably. Pretty educated. If iran has 50 million, they were going to use that 50 million for food. Then they get a new 50 million. They can use the new 50 million for food, use the old 50 million to buy weapons for terrorists. You get that, right . Thanks very much for the question. I have full confidence in Due Diligence members. It is outlined for this money. It can only be used first there is a bridge in brooklyn that i would like to show you and see if you are interested. That is absurd and i think you know it. The memoirs would probably write it that way. What about the 10 million from iraq . That would be highly monitored and we will watch where every penny goes . In terms of the Due Diligence, both of these sets of funds can only be used for humanitarian transactions. We have a great deal. In week theory against the regime that we dont trust that we know is bombing americans as we speak. 6 billion, we love saying, not one penny. Is that permanent . Is that permanent . 6 billion would go to iran . s aside, we do not expect this money to go anywhere. Can you guarantee me its not permanent or is permanent . This is based on u. S. Law. So really we should have said , not one penny has yet gone to the iranian terrorist regime. Thats more of a correct statement. We are stating that the sanctions in iran are stronger during the Previous Administration even though irans reserves went from 4 billion to god knows where, 80 billion. Even though that is a fact you are going to sit there and tell us, tell the world, that the sanctions today are stronger than they were under the Previous Administration. Even though there has been a reversal of fortune. This administration, we have not lifted any sanctions against iran. We have countless numbers of sanctions. Is it true that the amount of oil exported from iran is nearly 10 times what it was four years ago . We continue to closely monitor moyle export. Is a true or false . Is it true that the amount of oil exported from iran is 10 times more than four years ago . Even though you didnt change the sanctions. Is that true . Mr. Congressman, the oil exports have fluctuated over time. There are a variety of reasons for that. What does remain in place is all of our sanctions that we continue to enforce. The sanctions are one 10th of what they were before. The Atomic Energy agency found many violations. Many violations. Can iran be trusted to abide by those socalled rules that are trying to be worked out by the administration with no surprise inspections in place . Thanks for the question. The Biden Administration has been clear that we will never let iran get a Nuclear Weapon. One of the things that we have done is continue to encourage our partners and allies to press iran to cooperate more fully. This is one of our top priorities. I hope so. You agree that you ron is the primary supporter of terrorism and the number one supporter of hamas behind the nearly 100 attacks on American Forces in the last two months . We have minced no words about our concern of terrorist groups. Thank you. I yelled back. The jonas time is expired. Per the Ranking Members request we will once again go to a republican member on the side. The gentleman from iowa is recognized for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation. I know everyone in this room is committed to protecting United States. I appreciate your Public Service and the bipartisan work on this committee to hold iran accountable. There is work that needs to continue here. One of those heinous elements we have seen, we can agree that iran is one of the primary funders for this attack to occur by hamas. The 6 billion in illegal oil sales, we have been good on this committee and i am proud to leave the commitment that we will never transfer that money to iran. However, they move an unprecedented amount of oil out of the country through a ghost armada. We have been briefed on this. We understand that this new funding, over 80 billion dollars. A 400 increase since the tough sanctions that we have talked about. Its actually increased. Not just israel, but our own forces in the middle east. Here is where i have flown combat operations out of and received 100 attacks in the last days alone. During my days as a counterintelligence officer i saw the shady tactics of the Iranian Regime and their impact on the u. S. Interest in the region as well as allies while undermining us with nefarious relationships through the Iranian Revolutionary guard corps. Lets get started. I want to talk to you, miss rosenberg. Talk to us about how the iranians are able to get oil out of iran through the sanctions using ships that fly under a false flag. Thank you very much for the question. The run uses a variety of methods in order to try to earn money. Talk to me specifically about the ships. Lets get to it. Using obscured means, network of individuals who are not who they say they are. They look to flag registries and insurance providers. Thats an interesting point on the insurance providers. What has the treasury done to clamp down on these ships . Ultimately, while they fly under false flags, the Insurance Companies are the ones where you have the ability to help stop this. What have you done to stop the insurance providers . If they have any touch point u. S. Jurisdiction we have opportunities. Great. How many of these have shut down . The issue that you are getting at here is that iran looks to flybynight providers that would seriously concern all of us in terms of their ability to pay out if there is a spell or security situation. Iran uses its own insurance provision here. 40 of the fleet, as we understand against iran nuclear, says that there is a u. S. Company that is providing it. What action to take against the American Steamship Company right here on u. S. Soil . Getting to your point, and u. S. Person, insurance provider, ship broker, flagging authority, trader, anyone involved in the movement of iranian oil has obligations and liabilities in our jurisdiction. I understand that. What have you done to hold them accountable . On the specific entity you asked about i dont have an answer for you and would be happy to follow up. We have asked this question multiple times. You are treasury. What other u. S. Entities are providing insurance to iranian ghost fleet ships . None that im aware of. Im going to hold you to that. Lets follow up. Mr. Paley, are you aware that you ron has a history of freeing up funds by proxies in the region for terrorist purposes . Yes, we have long expressed our concern. So when we talk about humanitarian aid lets talk about gone before u. S. Review. We have seen that iran has a long history of taking money intended to help the iranian people and use it to fund terrorism. Would you agree . We have long expressed our concerns about this. Tell me a tangible action you have taken to clamp down on this. We have worked very closely with our colleagues to ensure strict Due Diligence. Hasnt stopped the flow of oil . I have only seen increases. In terms of the flow of oil, we also have a series of actions that we continue to rollout to address these issues. In addition to sanctions we also have diplomatic outreach to a variety of Different Countries when we are aware that they are involved somehow. Of all of the actions that have resulted in a reduction of oil flow out of the country by terrorist groups. The gentlemans time has expired. I will remind everyone on the committee that they are able to submit, through the chair, questions and writing to our witnesses who are expected to respond. Now the longawaited gentleman from texas, the Ranking Member is recognized for five minutes before we then move to a separate two minute closing. The gentleman is recognized for five minutes and then an additional two minutes. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. I am going to read from an article that was printed on tuesday, december 12, 2023 and ask that it be admitted into the record and overtime. My colleagues, not contained in the article, are concerned about but it is selected fungibility. Not a lot of concern about what happened with money and cash in the previous and menstruation. They sent millions to gaza for years with israels backing. Here is what we know about the controversial deal. I will read excerpts. When did the payments start . In 2018 qatar began making Monthly Payments to gaza strip. Some 15 million were sent to gaza with cash filled suitcases. There was a talk earlier about cash and how it is fungible. But the money was going to gaza to help with payments to people who are working to help the persons who live in gaza. Cash is supposedly fungible. 50 million sent in cash filled suitcases delivered by people of qatar to israeli negotiations. Then it goes on to read, israel approved the deal in a security Cabinet Meeting in august of 2018. Benjamin netanyahu was serving as Prime Minister. The u. S. , that would be under the Trump Administration, was aware of the payments to hamas. A former Senior State Department official involved told cnn, under condition of anonymity, due to the necessity of the matter. It goes on to read, a former deputy to israels National Security advisor told the New York Times that it empowered hamas and helped Benjamin Netanyahu avoid a palestinian state, saying the division of the palestinians helped him make the case that he had no partner for peace in palestine. Thus avoiding pressure of peace talks that could lead to the establishment of an independent palestinian state. You see, this money was sent to hamas or persons in gaza because the Palestinian Authority was withholding making payments. As a result, this money was to fill in this gap. Here is what a former israeli Prime Minister said. After years of flagging concerns to Benjamin Netanyahu when he was Prime Minister of education he stopped the suitcase transfers when he became Prime Minister in 2021. Here is an exact quote from him. Has stopped the cash suitcases because i believe that it is a horrendous mistake to allow hamas to have all of these suitcases full of cash that goes directly to reordering themselves against israelis. This is the exact quote. Why would we feed them cash . Qatar denies the funds were used by hamas, saying they were used as aid to salaries of workers in the besieged enclave. Under the theory of fungibility , given us to us today by my colleagues, when you give money to workers that hamas would normally have to use from its coffer, now you have aided hamas. And the United States was aware of all of this. Under the Trump Administration. Im bringing this to our attention for many reasons. But my principal reason is this. I believe in a two state solution. I believe in it so strongly that i have a resolution indicating that we should have a state for the palestinians. We have found such a resolution to benefit israelis. I support israel. But i think its time for us to have a palestinian state and i regret that mr. Netanyahu has thwarted the efforts. I will put two minutes on the clock for you to have a closing statement. Discretion of the chair. Im giving you up to two minutes. How about that . Is that because you have two as well . It will be even. The gentleman is recognized for one minute for closing statement. We agreed on one minute. If you want to change what we agreed to i think you should at least respect me enough to say, lets change the agreement that was our agreement, one minute. Which is why im saying one minute. I was attempting to be charitable to give the gentleman up to two minutes. In respect for our handshake agreement the gentleman will be recognized for one minute. I greatly appreciate the chair honoring our handshake agreement. Friends, as you can see these issues can become quite contentious. Here is where we are. Fungibility is something that was complicated contemplated when these rules and laws were drafted. I dont know how you can contend that people cant process funds. But heres the point, we still want to provide humanitarian assistance to people who need it. I support this humanitarian assistance. But what i dont support is empowering hamas, as mr. Netanyahu did, so that hamas could be the perfect enemy. He could utilize hamas because hamas wants to destroy israel, and say, i cant negotiate peace , we can have a two state solution because hamas is not amenable to that kind of peace talk. That is what im opposed to. And i yield back the balance of my time. The gentlemans time has expired. I will recognize myself for a one minute close. We have both said today that keeping money in iraq was been a full that official to iran. Did they not support the transfer to other jurisdictions . I didnt think so. Is clear that the transfer was at the request of iran to the Biden Administration. Rosenberg said that she couldnt tell us or wouldnt tell us today in an open setting if there had been problems with the transactions. The two transactions that have been acknowledged. The way i understand it, saying yes or no is not classified. All of us can understand where this is classified. Additionally, rosenberg spoke at length. The europeans do not have control over money and qatar. It was repeatedly said that there have not been any transactions. To be clear, mr. Rosenberg said there had been two transactions with the money and that there were problems and she would not answer that. I think he meant to say is there have not been any transactions yet using the money out of qatar. We sent a narrow document request that remains outstanding. Miss rosenberg, expect the treasury to produce an outstanding document quickly. Its my duty to inform everybody that if you have additional questions, all members will have five legislative days in which to submit their additional written questions to the chair which will be forwarded for the response. I ask our witnesses to please respond as promptly as you are able and thes hearing is adjourned