Transcripts For CSPAN3 American Artifacts 20160604

And he recalls his own political career and the historic moments in which he participated. We are in the United States capitol in the senate wing and about to be given a tour by the majority leader himself. Thank you, senator mcconnell for opening up the suite to us. Where are we in the capitol right now . Senator mcconnell we are not in the senate wing, which is further down. We are in the main happen toll. The main government came down from the philadelphia in the summer of 1800, and the capitol looked quite different at that point. The two wings were added right before the civil war during the 1850s. But this particular space, like every space in the capital has , its own history. We do know that during that general period they began to , develop what subsequently came known as the library of congress in this particular space. Its been the office of the republican leader of the senate, whoever that is whether we are , in the majority or minority, since probably the 1950s. But before that there were a , variety of different functions in this space. But the initial development of the library of congress has a story of its own, which i think your viewers will be interested in. Host before we go there, from a proximity standpoint, the senate wing is very close to us. Give us a sense of space of where we are. Senator mcconnell it is. Senator mcconnell the capitol was like this until the 1850s. Then they added a house wing and senate wing. The reason they did that was that we had won the mexican war. We had vast New Territory to the pacific. And anticipated new states, new senators, new congressmen. And like all government projects, there was a big debate about how much to spend as whether to go big, or to be modest. And in one of the great ironies of the American History, the wheel horse behind the first in the senate and subsequently as secretary of war of the Buchanan Administration was of all , people, Jefferson Davis who argued for going big that we were going to have a big building because we wanted to have a big, important country. And i think thats one of the great ironies of American History that later Jefferson Davis, of course, left and became president of the confederacy. Host before we go in the suite, its been named after a predecessor, howard baker. When did that happen . Senator mcconnell well, before i got here. When howard baker left in 1984, popular he was very popular with both sides of the aisle, both republicans and the democrats. And that was sort of a parting gesture to an outstanding republican leader. Host lets walk in. As were walking in, ive been doing this for a long time. It seems as though youre one of, dare to say, a declining number of senators who really care about the history of the senate. Im thinking about senator byrd before you who spent so much time. Do find that your interest in history is not as shared among newer members as in the old days . Senator mcconnell i dont really know, but i know there are few who read a lot of American History. Ive always been interested in it. In fact, i did my senior thesis in college on henry clay and the compromise of 1850. I have a depiction of that, which ill show you, subsequently. So, ive always had an interest in it. And once i moved into this office and became republican leader, we got interested in the history of this space and produced a pamphlet that sort of outlines the various things that have occurred here over the years. Host what did it look like in 1800 . Senator mcconnell well, you know, everything was smaller then. And theres a plaque in the hall that points out that in 1800 this would have been shortly , after they got here. The house of representatives actually met in this space and conducted the 36 ballot election that determined that Thomas Jefferson would be president , occurred in this space. Host right here. Senator mcconnell right in this space. And, of course, that was historically of enormous significance because bird was a scoundrel. And jeffersons old adversary hamilton actually did a lot to , influence jeffersons selection. He couldnt stand him. But he knew bird was a scoundrel and the country need to be saved from him. That occurred in here. And then they began to develop the library of congress in here, too. Host but it would have been much different than this. Was it this senator mcconnell i think the walls must have been configured differently. The house, subsequently, for many years, until the expansion in 1850, operated in statuary hall, but the acoustics they were terrible. Couldnt hear each other, literally could not hear each other. So the debates were quite stressful because people could not the acoustics were just awful. That was one of the factors, in addition to winning the mexican war that led to the expansion decision to build a house wing and a senate wing. Host now this room has got a , number of things i want to talk about but i want to stay with the history of it. 1800 was important but also 1814 was very important. Senator mcconnell it sure was. Host what happened . Senator mcconnell they developed the library of congress here. When the british invaded washington, they burned both the capitol and the white house. Of course, it didnt burn to the ground because it was made out of marble, but it gutted the building. And it took them four or five years to get back into the capitol. They used the initial library of congress, which the books to start the fire. That was supposedly happened in this area. It destroyed the initial library, of course. And gutted the capitol. And when people ask about jeffersons books being the start of the library of congress, thats true but that , happened after the initial library was destroyed in the fire. Jefferson then either gave or, i suspect, sold because he was always in it debt, his books which are still on display at , the library of Congress Building as the beginning of the library of congress. Host one of the most architecturally significant aspects of this room today . Senator mcconnell architecturally significant . Host the fireplace . Senator mcconnell well, it has fireplaces, which some of which actually still work but we dont use them anymore because of portraits like henry clay here on the wall. That was a contemporary portrait of clay. And smoke is not good for old portraits. Clay would have been thrilled. He and jackson were, i would argue, basically their rivalry began the modern twoparty system. They disagreed on absolutely everything. Clay took jackson on directly one time in 1832. Jackson won overwhelmingly. They argued and debated. And that was the beginning of the whig party under clay which became the republican party. And, of course, jackson was a prominent democrat. And i think clay would have enjoyed the fact that since my predecessor is from tennessee, when i moved into this office and replaced him, i took jackson down, sent him back to the museum, and put henry clay up. So clay finally bested jackson , in at least something. Host the other portraits are from senator mcconnell republican president s. Host you selected which ones . Senator mcconnell i have bush 41, Teddy Roosevelt, bush 43, and, of course, Ronald Reagan who is from my party and for us the modern hero. , host why did you choose the t. R. Portrait, Teddy Roosevelt . Senator mcconnell well, roosevelt was the most interesting person of whoever held the presidency. The only president who wrote books and made money off of writing books and who was a big , game hunter, fearless. He threatened i mean, he took enormous chances throughout his life both as a young man going out west after losing his wife and his mother on the same day and hunting. You know, battling the terrain and weather and all the rest. Down to after his final run for the presidency in 1912, which he lost in a threeway race that he precipitated by taking on his former friend and colleague, William Howard taft. He literally took off and went to south america and went down the amazon in an extremely dangerous trek down the amazon. Picked up a lot of exotic diseases, which probably led to his not living passed the age of 60. He had all kinds of Health Problems after he got back from the trip down the amazon. So clearly our most interesting , president ever and happened to be a republican, so i thought that was appropriate to be in the Republican Leaders office. Host how do you use this room today . Senator mcconnell well, this is where guests come in. They start here. And frequently i come out and , have pictures taken with them. Then we go into the Conference Room. We have meetings. Those are not only usually people from home, but also, you know senators are in here all , the time, in and out. Because my job as the majority leader is to set the schedule, to decide what we are going to debate. It doesnt always guarantee the outcome because the senate is a really unusual body. It requires 60 votes to do most things, and only rarely does one party have 60. So you have to talk to each , other. You cant do much in the senate on a strictly partisan basis. So this is a beehive of activity , during the week not only of constituents, people who have particular interests, but colleagues in the senate. Host before we leave this space, grand as it is, i want to understand its progression and usage because it was house of representatives and library of congress. And then what happened after that . Senator mcconnell lots of different things. The space was used, i think, for periods of time by Vice President s, by others. I have a pamphlet here that i think outlines the various uses. But for our purposes, i think, since the its been the office 1950s, of the republican leader of the Senate Whether we are the majority or the minority. We dont all switch offices like they do in the house. Former speakers in the house dont have nearly the office that the speaker does. But here, its been continuously since the time of robert taft in the 1950s, the office of the republican leader. Host how far away is the democratic leader . Senator mcconnell not very far. Hes off the floor of the senate, too, about the same distance. Actually, hed may be slightly a few feet actually he may be slightly a few feet closer than i. Of course, we deal with each other every day in opening the senate and discussing the business of the senate and how to go forward. Host were going to keep on moving through your suite. Ill let you lead the way here. Senator mcconnell ok. Well, when i was a young man and began to have hopes that maybe i could have a political career, my role model was a man named john sherman cooper, who was a republican senator from kentucky. Kentucky was pretty democratic, so it was a little bit unusual to have a successful republican. So, i identified with him. In his office in the summer of 1964. He was actively involved in breaking the filibuster on the civil rights bill of 1964. Happily enough, 20 years after that, i won the seat that hed that he had held, and he was still alive. And this is a picture of when i came up to be sworn in orientation. He asked me to stay at his house, which was a great honor, so i had gone from intern to senator. I didnt obviously defeat him. He retired. In the meantime, i defeated the guy who replaced him after he retired. But it was a thrill to literally, with senator cooper, go from intern to his replacement. Host another influence on your life . Senator mcconnell yeah. This is my great uncle with whom who,re a name, interestingly enough was a local , politician in alabama. Of course, there were no republicans at all. He was like the county executive. They called them probate judges. They still do in alabama. This is a piece of his stationary. And thats where i was born in north alabama. We lived briefly in georgia and then came to kentucky when i was 13. This is one of his old cards which shows you how politics has , changed. It looks like hes running in 1934. On his card it says to serve you well, to make each transaction a stepping stone toward your perfect confidence is my desire and constant endeavor. That probably wouldnt work today. [laughter] host a paid political announcement. Wasnt it . Senator mcconnell it was. It was one of his campaign cards. Obviously it was not a cut and slash kind of campaign. [laughter] host and were moving into the next suite. What is this . Senator mcconnell this is the Conference Room that, as i indicated, this space has been occupied by the republican leader roughly since the time of robert taft who was only majority leader briefly. He was a real power house in the senate. Ran for president a couple of times. Competed against eisenhower. But when eisenhower won, he wanted and i think his colleagues wanted him to become actually the majority lead are, which he did. Regretfully, he died about eight months later, so he was only in here briefly. One of our best known and most popular leaders, howard baker of tennessee, who retired the year that i got here. In fact, just passed away the last couple of years. When i was an intern here, Everett Dirksen was the leader of the republican minority and a major player with l. B. J. In making the civil rights bill in 1964 and the Voting Rights bill of 1965 bipartisan. Host he also used television quite effectively during his time. Senator mcconnell he was not particularly photogenic, but he was a great actor. He had a natural wit. He couldve made his living being an actor in place on broadway. So, he was entertaining. He sort of kept the republicans alive, after the kennedy assassination and the goldwater we were down to a smaller number debacle of we were down to a smaller number again, which has 1964. Happened a couple of times in the last 100 years. And, of course, everyone remembers bob dole who became the leader when i got here and was our candidate for president. And when bob stepped down to run fulltime for president in 1996 he was seceded by trent lott of , mississippi. Host do you still stay in touch with your predecessors, talk to them . Senator mcconnell sure. I was talking to dole recently. I talked to lott frequently. And bill is back on this wall. He was the one who put Andrew Jackson up outside, thus leading to my story about clay and jackson. Host how do you use this room . Senator mcconnell were having he had meetings in here all the time. The Republican Leadership meetings are in here. If we have a particular issue were trying to advance, i bring the leaders of both sides typically in to discuss ways to go forward. Its a beehive of activity. There are also constituent meetings in here, too. But, mostly members. Host are you willing to share a story . It doesnt have to be contemporary or give away , anything, but a memory in this room . Senator mcconnell oh my goodness. [laughter] ill have to think about that. There have been so many. One moment you would be interested in. When president bush wanted to order the surge in iraq toward the end of his tenure, the democrats had just come to the majority, and they believed the unpopularity of the iraq war was the principle reason they had come to the majority. So there was a lot of resistance , to providing the funds for the surge to see if we could finally get the iraq war right. I was just elected leader, but i was leader of the minority so i had to try to sell to a new majority who felt they had just come to power because of the unpopularity of the war a strategy that seemed to be doubling down on failure. And so the best salesman i could , find was general david petraeus. And we had petraeus in here. We brought in members after members after members after members, and let him make the itument about why he thought would work. He was a good salesman. We got the funding. The surge did work. And, believe it or not, the iraq war was won by the time president bush left office. So the sales job, in effect, was done largely in this room by general petraeus, who was going to be the person to execute the strategy if he could get the funds for the troops. Host one of those if the walls could talk sort of rooms. Isnt it . Senator mcconnell yes. Host next is your own personal office. Correct . Senator mcconnell yes. Host how long are your days . Senator mcconnell i usually have something to do in the evening. Were either in session or i have some event i need to attend for my colleagues. So i usually get home around , 8 30 or 9 00. Host and when do start . Senator mcconnell sort of normal time like most people, 8 30 or 9 00. Host so regularly 12hour days. Will how much of that time is spent in here . Senator mcconnell most of my time in here. Like all senators, i have another office in the russell building. We have three Senate Offices but i have, as a result of being leader, i have two offices and two sets of staff. The staff here deals with all of the senators. My staff in russell is mainly oriented toward kentucky and my responsibilities there. But just to keep myself from running back and forth all the time, i generally operate out of here. The people from the Russell Office have constituents or concerns, they usually come over here. Youll be interested in what i have on the wall. This is lincoln and his son, ted. Host this is an original . Senator mcconnell i think so. In the 19th century, so many children died of disease. Lincolns son, willie, died while he was president. Ted made it to age 19 and died of some disease. Only lincolns son robert had a full life. Since lincoln is such a distinct figure for republicans, and actually in many ways for democrats as well, i thought it appropriate to have him up there. Host and people forget that he has kentucky roots because illinois laid such claim to him. Senator mcconnell we all claim him. He was born in indiana he was born in kentucky. Lived briefly in indiana. And ended up in illinois. So, at home we have lincolns , birthplace. We make everybody wants to claim lincoln. Host also been to mary lincolns house in lexington. So she has kentucky roots, too. Senator mcconnell she was from lexington. And so the lincoln roots in , kentucky were real. You probably remember his famous quote that he wanted to have god on his side, but he had to have kentucky. What that meant was he spent an enormous amount of time prying to prevent kentucky from seceding from the union because peace who thought it was extreme in terms of the war strategy to avoid kentuckys secession. Thus the saying, i want to have god on my side but i have to have kentucky. Speaking of kentucky, this is John Marshall harland. Every firstyear law student can tell you who he was. He was from kentucky. He fought for the union. The war, he had some political aspirations. But kentucky, curiously enough, seemed to sort of go over to the Southern Side after the war and became a totally democratic state. So harlan didnt get very far , with his political aspirations. He had a partner, a law partner, named Benjamin Bristow, who is a very wellknown. And the two of them were known as sort of solid citizens who were incorruptible. And his partner, Benjamin Bristow became secretary of , treasury in the grant administration. That, was hen for was sort of mr. Clean and grant had all kinds of corruption problems. And he brought in bristow to try to clean the place up. Bristow also, interestingly enough, was the nations first solicitor general. So bristow after about a year , took a look at the situation and decided he needed to get out. He was afraid his reputation would get smeared. Why am i telling you about harlans partner . Theres a point. In 1876, after eight years of grant, the republicans, harlan thought, needed to do something different. And so mr. Clean, he thought, would be the perfect nominee for president. So, the Republican Convention was in cincinnati. In those days you werent supposed to act like you wanted it, so bristow didnt go to cincinnati, harlan did to try to get bristow the president ial nomination. When it didnt happen, harlan switched the bristow delegates to rutherford b. Hayes which is how he got on the Supreme Court and served for 30 years. , and the reason i have John Marshall harlan up here, he was the center of the case plessy v. Ferguson which upheld segregation and public accommodations. Segregation in public accommodations. It was rail cars. That dissent in 1896 became the unanimous decision in brown v. Board of education in 1954. So, every freshman law student who has had constitutional law can tell you who John Marshall harlan is i probably told you more than you wanted to know. But how he ended up on the Supreme Court, it was a reward for helping hayes get the nomination. This is a depiction of the debate surrounding the compromise of 1850. The reason i have it up, not only henry clay, daniel webster, john c. Calhoun i have it up not only because im an admirer of clay, but i did my senior thesis college of the compromise. Host was it because he was a kentuckian that you did that . Senator mcconnell yeah. Yeah. I recently reread it. It wasnt very good. Frankly, they should have made me rewrite it so im not exactly sending it around for publication. But, it was one of the three sort of major copper prices major compromises that clay was involved in, widely attributed to holding the union together as long as it held together before the inevitable conflict blew things up. Host and gave him the nickname the great compromiser. Correct . Senator mcconnell yeah. Thats what he was known as. Host what does that message mean for you for the senate today . Senator mcconnell because you have to compromise. And we do a lot of that. Unfortunately in todays world the things we agree on never , make any news. Its only when we have differences. Or something goes off the track , or something is controversial that it seems to be important , enough to be noticed, which is a great frustration. Becausele like me, weve had in this Current Congress under the new majority, an extreme a productive period with all kinds of things that are important, like trade promotion authority, cyber security, multiyear highway bills, a complete rewrite of elementary and secondary education legislation, major energy bill. In other words, on and on and on almost none of which make any news because people are not interested in times when we get along and accomplish things. They tend to only be interested in our differences. Host do you find yourself muttering to that portrait from time to time . Senator mcconnell occasionally, yeah. [laughter] so i have a democrat in here, alvin barkley, on the left. The only other kentuckian who has been leader of his party in the senate. He had a long tenure, from 1937 to 1949. There were so Many Democrats in the senate when he was elected. The vote was, i think, 3736. That shows you how Many Democrats there were in a senate that had only 96 members because hawaii and alaska were not yet states. He won by one vote. But he was a roosevelt guy. A very interesting man. He finally became Vice President under truman and went into private life for the first time in a very long time. Host after that was over. Senator mcconnell yeah. He hated it. Didnt like private life. So, he decided to run against my role model senator cooper, in , 1954. And defeats cooper. But cooper has a pretty fast comeback after being sent to india as ambassador to india by president eisenhower. Barkley accepts an invitation to the washington convention. Youll enjoy this. Hes down there on april 30, 1956, speaking to the students who are having a mock convention. Barkley spoke of his willingness to sit with other freshmen senators in congress. He ended with an illusion to psalm 84 10 saying im glad to sit on the back row for i would rather be a servant in the house of the lord than to sit in the seats of the mighty. He then collapsed and died of a heart attack. And president truman put out a statement saying, boy, id like to go that way. You know . A politician in front of a big audience, a cheering crowd, bam. Host and a memorable line. Senator mcconnell yeah. It was a great exit a great , exit. So thats why i have barkley up. Host as youre work at your desk, you have one d. And one r. Appearing over your shoulder. Senator mcconnell i do. Its a good lesson every day. [laughter] posts host another bust of clay over here. Senator mcconnell yeah. You can never have too much of henry clay, if youre me. I also have a bust of clay in here. Host and you have some documents and books. What have you chosen to display of those for example . Senator mcconnell well, these are just very old books. I will confess, i have not read them. But very, very old books. These two cases, you know, that simply are the right kind of vision i think for an office thats steeped in history. Host and the James Madisonframed document behind you . Host somebody gave me that. Im a big James Madison fan. I just finished reading Lynne Cheneys terrific biography of madison. Active ineen vary first amendmenttype issues since madison was the author of. The constitution and a supporter since madison was the author of the constitution and a supporter of the bill of rights, i just am fond of James Madison. Host wrapping up, this office was a spectacular view of the mall. Senator mcconnell two things about this window. Bob dole, when he was in this office, called this the second best view in washington. He wanted the first best view, which he said was down at the white house. Host he tried. Senator mcconnell didnt quite work out. But outside this window there are the steps of the capitol. And my first internship in washington, in 1963, was in a congressmans office. I had the good fortune to actually be here on august 28, 1963, when Martin Luther king made the i have a dream speech. Now, i confess, i couldnt hear a word because i was down at this end of the mall. He was on the Lincoln Memorial looking out at throngs, literally thousands and thousands of people. But you knew you were in the presence of something really significant. And i went home that night and turned on the tv if had any. On the tv. If had any doubts, they were dispelled about the significance of that day. It was a thrill to think back upon that all of these years later and see the progress that weve made in Race Relations in this country. King, i think, would never have imagined that we would have an africanamerican president , for example. Great progress. Host and then you went on to be an intern for senator cooper. Senator mcconnell the next summer came back on the senate side with senator cooper who was actively involved in break a in breaking a filibuster against the civil rights bill in 1964. I was in the mail room, not exactly making policy in those days. And then i had another story the next year that you would be interested in. I came back to visit the friends that i had made the previous two summers. The next summer, the summer of 1965. And once again i happened to hit it on the right day. I was sitting in the outer office in senator coopers, you know, the reception area of senator coopers office hoping to get a chance to see him. He walks out, grabs me by the arm and says [clearing throat] im going to take you to something really important. We come over to the rotunda and , there i am in the back of the room watching Lyndon Baines johnson sign the Voting Rights act of 1965. I had a better seat than i did for the Martin Luther king speech. And one more anecdote you might be interested in. In 2008, i was in the rotunda. We were celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of l. B. J. And i met lucy johnson whom i had never met before. I said, lucy, i was here on the day your dad signed the Voting Rights act. She said, i was, too. I said, really . Im sure nobody knew i was here but im positive everybody knew , you were here. And heres what she told me. She said that her dad said come on, get in the car, im going to take you to the capitol. This is something important. And on the way down he explained to her that Everett Dirksen was going to be right beside him while he signed the bill. And she said, daddy, why would you want to have a republican there for this . He said, its important that the American People understand that this is done on a bipartisan basis and the , American People will be much more likely to accept what were doing if they think both sides are involved in it. And that was the story lucy told me on l. B. J. s 100th birthday down at statuary hall. Host youve talked about your internships on the house and senate side. When did this whole interest in politics get started for you . Senator mcconnell probably high school. I ran for president of the student body in high school. If i had lost, maybe i would have done something else. Host was there a mentor or were you following politics in your family . Senator mcconnell in my fifth grade picture, the little mug shots every year, i had an i like ike button on. Host there werent too many republicans you were in kentucky at that point . Senator mcconnell i was in georgia at that point. You were right, there werent many republicans. My dad served in world war ii, way down as a foot soldier level, under eisenhower. And he decided to vote for eisenhower. Obviously, eisenhower didnt carry any Southern States but my dad was a great admirer of the commander. And so i sort of began to , identify with republicans a little bit. And four years later we were in , kentucky. Even though it was a democratic state, republicans occasionally won. My dad was a republican. I began to go identify begin to identify with the republicans and decided to take a shot at it. I ran for president of the student body in college, in law school, too. Clean sweep. Host once you got here, was the leadership position something you always aspired to . Is this your dream job . Senator mcconnell unlike a lot of people, i really didnt think i was going to be president of the United States. I think there are plenty of senators who do think that. I was not one of them. I had hoped that maybe one day i could be leader of my party in the senate. And it really was a dream come true. Host what does this office allow you to do . Whats its real power . Senator mcconnell i think to pull people together. To set the schedule, to try to push the country in the direction you think it ought to go. Its a great joy. And its an interesting leadership challenge, as you can imagine. A club like the senate . A lot of intelligent people with sharp elbows and big egos. They have their own hopes and aspirations, not only for themselves but for the country. , trying to synthesize all of that and make some semblance of music is like conducting the orchestra. Somebodys always a little bit offkey. Host maybe tying history into this conversation as we close here. When you look at the kind of politics that happened in this chamber during the civil war year, 1850 leading up to the war, really tough times with really important stakes. When people say today this is the most partisan environment that weve ever experienced what does history tell about that . Senator mcconnell that its not anywhere near true. And its a shame that the American People think that things are more contentious now than they used to be. We havent had a single incident where a congressman came over and tried to beat to death a senator on the floor of the senate, which happened in the 1850s. Whats different today is that more americans are exposed to the arguments through the internet, through cable television. But the debates we have today are nothing compared to, for example, what adams and jefferson called each other. In those days they were fighting duels. We had big, vigorous, robust debates throughout the history of the country. Whats different today is more people are exposed to it. And, i think the coverage of what we do is entirely tilted towards the things we disagree on and the contentiousness of some of our debates, not the outcomes that we get. Which is disappointing. Host leader mcconnell, thank you so much for the tour of your office, and for the history lessons youve given us. Senator mcconnell thank you. You can watch this or any other artifacts programs any time, by visiting our website at cspan. Org history. This barry lewis discusses the creation and evolution of new york citys greenwich village. Here is a preview. Those battalions lived in the back streets. This is early 1900s. None ofwhich have us would have gone there. You were only going and looking for trouble. But, in only a few years, a new generation of middleclass young people are going to discover this neighborhood and start moving in and they are going to dub it with a new name, greenwich village, in which none of the people ever heard of. A young couple said they were going to be a young couple and another couple were living on the lower west side. 10 at Jefferson Market courthouse. You can see a slum alley. Middleclass people would not be caught dead there. Later, it few years becomes the center of feminism. Julia barnes lived in patent place. It became popular for feminist dinners. Maybe m a goldman. They were a feisty bunch. They gave the men a run for their money already. And look how different the world is. The people who lived at 8th street and fifth avenue never went over to patton place. Watch the entire lecture at 4 45 eastern on American History tv. Schoolng up, albany law professor delivers an address on immigration and america. Mr. Finkelman talks about the president and immigration policy, colonial period to modernday. This event is part of a twoday u. S. Capitol Historic Society symposium. It is about one hour and 50 minutes. We have paul finkelman. Os