Transcripts For CSPAN2 Thomas 20240705

Hi, everyone. Good evening and welcome to the Cleveland Park library. This may sound okay. Welcome to the Cleveland Park library and welcome to our bookstore. Bookstore, excuse me, featuring tom baker. Im so happy to be here, all of you. My name is diana spyro, and i am the president of the Fordham University Alumni Chapter of washington, dc. Tom, of course, is one of our most prominent alumni here in the dc area, and were so happy to hear him about his new memoir. Id like to share a bit of toms background first before he begins and offers some opening remarks. Thomas j. Baker is an International Law enforcement consultant. He served over 33 years as a fbi special agent and a variety of Leadership Missions dealing with terrorist and criminal challenges. He has experience with Police Management and training issues, having served as a management instructor at the fbi academy in quantico, virginia. He has been published in professional journals both nationally and, internationally, on aspects, biometrics. Major Case Management and police training. He has presented before national and International Forums concerning these topics as well. His writing has appeared in the wall street journal, the hill, the Washington Examiner and the daily caller on television. He has provided commentary on the fox news channel, fox business and msnbc, and featured in segments of cnns crimes of the century and dateline. His book, the fall of the fbi by post hill press, was released on december 6th. Toms International Experience is extensive. He served as the legal attache, the american embassy, and can bear to australia where he was responsible for maintaining u. S. Law enforcement interests and a large part of the asia pacific region. He was then assigned as legal attache in paris, where he developed expertise not only in western europe, but in much of africa. These experiences were in the operational side as well as the diplomatic side. He was commended by the director of fbi for his role in the investigation of major terrorist attacks. Tom has been closely involved. The planning and management of major events. He was the american representative to the Security Task force for the calgary winter olympics. During his time paris, he was the senior u. S. Law enforcement advisor to the planning and Security Management of the world cup. While in canberra, he conceived and implemented the pacific training initiative. Successful ongoing program. Help police the Pacific Island nations. Tom holds a bachelors degree from university and a masters degree in Public Administration from. The John Jay College of criminal justice. He successfully completed the senior command course at the Staff College in brams hill, england, and is fluent in french. Currently, tom advises Law Enforcement agencies in the United States and across the world on innovations in forensics, communications and identification systems. He significantly assisted corporations in the capture and management of National Biometric and command and control systems. He represents and interprets Law Enforcements interests and needs corporations and universities. He is an active member of. The International Association of chiefs of police, the fbi, National Academy associates. The fbi, National Executive institute associates. And the society of former fbi agents. Tom, without further ado, i invite you to come forward and share that about your book. Thank you, deanna. D. A. Done a heck of a job as the president. The Alumni Chapter of fordham in the washington, d. C. And i appreciate all help with this project. She was one of one of several people, but d. A. Has expertise in this who i gave an early draft of the first few pages to edit and she had some very good suggestions. And thats one of the things ill share with you right off the bat. If you and i know several you have and several of you are going to write books. If you write a book, you have to have very thick skin because as good as you think your writing is, when you give it some editors and d. A. One of them, they will have some criticism or corrections. This book, the fall of the fbi. Let me talk a little bit about which i know is of interest to some of you, how it was, why it was written, how its organized. And then ill talk about the substance of the book. I think at book talks, people like to know a little bit about this for quite a few years of i would as is my agent and some you have heard this i would be telling stories of some adventure at a dinner party or a Cocktail Party and somebody would say to me, you ought to write a book. And course thats something people say. But sometimes you get the message that this person means it and my white book and, then i, i had the privilege of working with an individual who i mentioned in the book, mel semler, who was the American Ambassador to australia, and later the American Ambassador to italy. And he told me, and this applies to a lot of you, you must write this stuff down. Its not in a book form, in some form for the benefit of a children and grandchildren and other friends to share with them what you did. Because sure, as sure shooting and some of us have already experienced this, your parents die, your old friends die and you wish jesus have asked. I wish i would have asked him or her this or that. So and mel did write a book about his adventures and he made great contributions for our country of. So that was, in my mind and in early on, i say early on over the past half dozen or a dozen years, i wrote up a few my adventures as standalone articles because i was lucky enough and it is luck to be involved in or on the periphery of some major historical events and cases specific. The attempted assassination of president reagan, the crash of pan am 103, the crash of. Two 800. The the death in paris of Princess Diana and several other things of that nature. And i felt, you know, that was worthy of recording my thoughts and my observations on it because. People. And i know that some of you have been in this position whove been involved in historical things, a newsworthy. To receive story. The story thats out there that everybody believes you know is a little bit different, not necessarily contradicting it, but you have something to add to it and its worthwhile those facts. So some of these early chapters in the book have written some time ago and then three or four or five years ago now, i became very concerned along with several of my recently retired fbi agents or some executives in the fbi and in the department of justice about the way certain things were being done, some of the abuses of authority that we perceive that were going on. And i started to organize my thoughts around that. And i didnt want it to be political of be perceived as being political, which which it is by a lot of people. But i felt that some of these abuses threaten everybody. They threaten people on the left as well, as the right. And they need to be addressed. And and i undertook that that mission by writing a about 13 or 14 pieces over the last several years for the wall street journal, particularly. And thats most the third part of the book. So in organizing my thoughts and now ill get to the substance of the book, i call, in fact, and i in my draft, i called it the the good, the bad and the ugly. And every time i see that, i hear music, i read it anyway. The good, the bad and, the ugly, and the good is adventures. And it has a lot of interest and appeal to a lot of people the bad is injustice and unfortunate lately ive seen several instances working in the federal government. And in the years since then, when ive worked as a consultant with the federal government of injustice and and thats probably the most profound and shocking thing to me. And the thing that i learned while in the fbi that really changed my mind when i grew up. Like many of you i had a very idealistic image of justice in the Justice System here in america. I essentially thought and i think most of the public thinks this that all the accused guilty, everybody in prison deserves to be there. And i found out and ive come im i now understand that thats not so that justice imperfect and proper while were on this earth, justice will always be imperfect. There are some people in jail who shouldnt be there. Theres a lot of people not in jail that should be in jail. Thats to simplify it, this injustice is more complicated than that. Sometimes. So thats middle part. The bad and the ugly. What i think has happened to our fbi in the last several years and and what i think are some the things that need to be changed to to address those problems, to address the ugliness. So its the good, the bad and the ugly in undertaking this book. And i mention this in a in a book, talk, i learned a about writing and publishing is obvious. I learned a lot about writing, had a lot of good editors, informal editors. I mentioned. And the number one editor is my wife, anne, whos here with us tonight. And thats not an unusual situation. Ive talked to a lot of journalists and wellknown authors, and youve probably heard of of them. And they all say that their spouse is the number one editor. I mean, thats just how it happens of so i learned a lot about writing. But ive recently learned a lot about the Publishing Business and some of it. And its not all good either. Number one in a contract for a book, one thing i learned, the publisher, the editors, they cant make you change your words stay. The authors words, the are your responsibility. Youre the one who writes the words, but they have the final veto on. On the cover art and on the title my had several different titles before it wound up with this title, but the publisher has control over the cover art and the and once you get it you realize well that makes sense. They want to sell books and they want to make money, whereas often. And also like myself and like like most of you, youre motivated. Youre not a profession or writer. Youre not looking to support yourself by your writing. So you want to get a point across, want to leave a legacy and youre not so much interested in any money on the book. You you want to get an idea across. Whereas the publisher wants to sell books. The other thing i learned is happening to publishing in america, and this is rather alarming. I think. And let me just throw this out as a question. What percentage of of hardcover books like this one . What percent do you think are sold online as opposed to in a bookstore . Anybody have any idea . I guess 70 , 70, 70. Thats what i would have said. And thats what a lot of people say. According to my publisher he told me 90 of books today are sold online. And of that, 90 , 90 is sold by amazon. Amazon is the big dictator on the street now. They we still thank god in this country read, write and sell a lot of books because ive done a half dozen at book signings in bookstores, barnes and noble and a couple of independent bookstores. And on saturday a sunday, theres a theres a fairly crowd in there. And as youre doing a bookstore signing, youll see people online at the cashier. Young, middle aged people, all kinds of people, often with two or three books. They roam around and they buy two or three books. So spite of what you see at the barnes and noble percent of the books are being sold online. And most of those by amazon. The result is that amazon is calling a lot of the shots theres been a lot of disputes and even legal cases amazons been involved in with publishers. But essentially my publisher told me that the sales on amazon are more important and than any other sales because a statistic that everybody looks at and early on in a book coming out, this is what they call advanced orders or advance sales and almost always in fiction and nonfiction and in the wellknown authors and the people like, myself, they are anywhere three months to six or eight months in advance. Youll see a book listed coming in december, coming this fall, you know, and often with the specific date you can preorder now on amazon, those preorders are in credit highly important. The publisher has make their decision about print runs based on the preorder days now im talking about most books and most books i like my book and they sell a few thousand copies. And hopefully will sell 10,000. But right now were somewhere between two and 4000 copies of my book. Thats kind of typical for most books. The people, the celebrities, prince harry, michelle obama. A lot of sports, big name in sports who all do a book. Most of them, somebody helps them write it and they acknowledge that those books they sell hundreds of thousands copies, sometimes millions of copies thats a whole different ball game. But in this case the so theyll theyll guarantee someone and they pay them in advance. I mean prince Harry Michelle obama people of that nature brady theyll get 100,000, 500,000, a big check for promising to write a book. Somebody puts it together, it goes out there. And they they they do a big printing on it. And then youll go to to barnes and noble and youll see table just with prince harrys book on it, you know, 40, 50 copies and you stay there all day as i have and a half dozen stores and not one copy sold to a retail customer but theres some kind of back office deal in publishing. And theyre to theyre going to be all right. But for like us, those advanced tell the publisher whether hes going to do a print run of 1000 or 2000 or more, they make that decision on that. They also make the decision theyre going to spend any money in promoting the book on what the advance sales are. And then the the statistics for these lists. The wall street journals top ten bestsellers on the new york times, top ten bestsellers, they kill off of these big things like amazon. Now they use other metrics, but amazon is the big thing all go to and and thats thats a key thing so that was all interesting learning that that i chose good the bad and the ugly as a theme to highlight the avenges, the injustice is and then the ugliness with some suggestions as to what should be done. There are other themes that run through the book that some people have picked up on. One is my encounter, which was thanks to the fordham club of dc with saint mother teresa, and i explain it in the book, but she gave us all some very advice in a meeting with her and everybody who was there still. It vividly, and i harken back throughout the book to the event she gave me and how its still relevant. The other theme. One of the other themes that comes throughout the book is the movies. There have been a of good cinema and i mean it good cinema and a lot of not so good cinema done about the fbi or about Law Enforcement work or about several cases. And i to that those cinemas events in the book and i also give my opinion as to how or inaccurate they are and some of them have been pretty good and a lot of them are pretty lousy. But thats another subtheme running through the book. So, so the main contention which the title the book comes from and ill mention this and when we go to a question and answer session with diana, questions will come up about this. But its my contention after talking to a lot of people that there was a big change in the fbi right. The september 11th attacks and a lot of problems that have surfaced in the last two or three years have there origin back then. And what happened then was bob mueller, Robert Mueller became the director of the fbi just a few days before the september 11th attacks. The attacks were on a tuesday, september 11th, on saturday morning, september 15th. Bob mueller was summoned to the the president s retreat in the mountains in maryland, camp david, to give he thought to give a report to the president on the problem, the progress, the investigation now. So about only about and a half days had elapsed from the attack on tuesday september 11th to saturday morning, 15th. Mueller came in with the report. And the president , of course, was they were kind of hunkered down, literally bunkered down there in this rustic setting with his key adviser is sitting beside him. In one of the photographs ive seen of this meeting was Condoleezza Rice sitting beside president George W Bush and other key people were around the room, and mueller was one of the early people called on. And he gave his report to the fbi investigator in and the fbi had done what they do best investigate. And in three and a half days, they had identified all 19 hijackers. They had identified their financing that identified past travel. They identified their credit cards, their rental cars, all their contacts going back, their connections to al qaeda. And he laid out this report expecting and he later told us this on several occasions expecting praise and thanks. And George W Bush just looked at him and said, i dont care about that i just want to know how youre going to prevent the next one. Later that morning george tenet, who was then the director of the cia. George tenet, gave a report and he had a plan and he gave this report his proposal going forward. And what he was done and this is in several other peoples books. And once again, molla had told us on several occasions this himself, George W Bush turned and said, thats great and then he turned and looked at molla and said, thats what i want to hear. So molla left that meeting humiliated and he left that meeting. And he has said this repeatedly bound and determined to change the culture of the fbi. And in doing so he turned the fbi as he wanted to into an Intelligence Agency and a way from being a Law Enforcement agency. And that had a lot of unintended consequences. And i submit to you a lot of bad concert choices. Now, some of it was under understandable why he did this, but it had bad consequences. And the distinction is this in a Law Enforcement agency, whether its the fbi or youre a detective with the Washington Metropolitan Police or anything else, consciously or unconsciously, you live in exist every day for the day when youre going to have to stand up in court before a judge, before a jury to swear out an arrest warrant, to swear out a search warrant, to testify before a grand jury. And youre going to have to raise your right hand and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but truth that informs you do. And your mindset and of course, in the organization that creates a certain culture in, an Intelligence Agency, they dont deal in that and they deal in literally deceit and deception. And that creeps into everything they do. And ive had people, our intelligence agencies that i was assigned with in embassies over seas, and i explain this in the book, tell how that that puts a strain on them, because they dont call it lying. Thats another cute thing. They never say they lie. They say they operate and they get in a habit of upper all the time because the lies roll off their tongue all the time. So they operated in the embassy we found examples we were shocked where theyd lie to us theyd lie to the ambassador and one guy and it was a guy in case told me that it becomes a problem for them because they take this home and people in our intelligence agencies recognize this, they take this home with them and they lie to their spouse. And that obviously creates a lot of problems. So its a whole different culture, a whole different mindset and the also part of that Law Enforcement culture is kind of drawing certain lines. So theres a pushback to political interference, whereas intelligence agencies sees they kind of cater to their masters and try and find the scoop that they want they want. So its a different a different way of looking at and mueller and i can go into this later and its in the book, he made a lot of very specific changes because of some things based on his he had been a u. S. He had several different jobs in the department of justice. But as spicer typically been a u. S. Attorney, the head federal prosecutor in two different cities, boston and san francisco, and he had there that informed some of his thinking negative experiences. And and thats part of that puzzle, too there. So he he he wanted things more highly centralized than they had been. And i this in a great detail in the book. But the fbi had and still has a system, an office of origins with their investigation. So one field office, let us say baltimore would be the office of origin and specific investigate and theyd be responsible for the investigation they would set out leads to whats called an auxiliary field office say pittsburgh and headquarters would review what they were doing. So when you have this this kind of an operation you have the case agent and in mind every fbi agent is at least a college and a High Percentage of them are Law School Graduates. So theyre very highly educated men and women and then they have their field supervisor, a immediately looking over their shoulder and participate and guiding them and you have the agent in charge, a special in charge of that field office is able tomorrow, pittsburgh. And after that, fbi Headquarters Program overview and look see. So you have layers and layers of independent judgment and review and this tends to find errors incorrect. Errors. Muller didnt want that. And comey followed in his footsteps. He wanted everything centralized. So the first investigation ever done in the fbi under that centralized model was the investigation of the september 11th attacks, which the fbi code name for that was penn bomb for, pentagon, world trade towers, point bomb and that was he pulled that in and ran it way. Then later, comey had the Hillary Clinton email investigation and then the investigate russian president ial collusion. The the Trump Campaign also run from headquarters so you all those levels of review and and i think thats how certain things got off the track because what you had was the same people headquarters making decisions the direction for the invested nation and then going out and actually conducting the investigation. So you had a guy like struck a Deputy Director rather high level executive he made certain he made the decision to open the investigation or at least he signed that authored and signed out that communication did both. He authored it and signed it out. And then the next day that was on a sunday came in on a sunday and the next day monday he got on a plane and flew london to conduct the first interview in that investigation. So you have the same person doing it as making a decision about it thats bound to end badly all need somebody like i need an editor these guys need somebody looking over their shoulder and correcting when they go off base. And we didnt have so thats thats the thesis my book where that went wrong and ive talked actually longer than i i would. So now were going to take ten second break or something and diana is going to sit down with me, question me and take your questions for me. Okay. So. Okay. Okay. Okay. Tom thank you so much again for sharing your your remarks with all of us. Youve had such a tremendous career. Could you talk a little bit about your your early influences and what originally you to join the fbi and whether you had any family members or early role models who were involved . Okay. Well, my grandfather my, maternal grandfather came to this country from ireland and settled in brooklyn and became a policeman, the city of brooklyn. And until 1898, i believe, brooklyn was its own city. So he was a policeman there. And then his and never knew him, of course. But two sons, my two maternal uncles had a big, big role in my early life information. They were like fathers to me, and i mentioned them both in the book and. They were both new York City Policemen. My uncle frank was a detective with the new York Central Railroad police, the railroads, which some people know this. They have actual departments. Each of the major railroads did. And then he went on the new York City Police department. And in World War Two, he was in the army cid and had a lot of adventures he would talk about of fighting the black market in sicily and italy and fighting similar market in the philippines. And then my uncle bill was also a detective with the new Central Railroad and, then later became a new York City Policeman and had quite a few adventures. And i had take their adventures out of my book or just mention them by name at the beginning. But yeah, they would to form an event. So i had this interest in Law Enforcement and they were pretty role models occasion really. They sounded a little cynical but. I never really picked up on that. I just listened to their adventures and their highlights. Later on, i had some you have frankly experiences and you me to keep talking to you. When we ask you another question because ill go into various i decided to join the new York City Police department in my senior year at. Fordham i know a lot of you familiar with they just changed. This was 1965 and they were making an effort to, recruit College Graduates and they were making an accommodation for them they had not just new york city. People today find this hard to believe but all the major city Police Departments in america had a rotating three shift system in new york city. They specifically called it three platoon system, which very destructive to peoples personal life and, also to their ability to respond. We now know physiologically and psychologically to their work they would work for like 30 days on a day shift, 8 to 4, then 30 days in the evening for, two midnight and then 30 days, midnight to eight in the morning, and then change over again. Well, we now know the way humans work. Airline pilots know everybody else. It it diminishes your cognitive abilities as well as your physical abilities. So they were just then making an effort to, recruit College Graduates and they said, if you could get into graduate school and go to graduate school, theyd give you a fixed shift either, you know, midnight to eight in the morning or four to midnight, more or less. And and then you could go to graduate school or shift and go to graduate school in the evening. So that suited me fine. I got accepted, which what is now John Jay College in the Police Administration program and it was the spring of senior year and and i was planning to do go to the Police Academy in september also had other plans to marry this woman in the back of the room now that worked out that was my best move of all. But one night i after a date or going to dance or something, i stop in a tavern in in our neighborhood. And in those days in new york state people use could drink starting at the age of 18 and we did. And i stop in this tavern and i have these plans now formulate it in my head and i dont know go in exactly this is this maybe this time of year april, may, march, april, may. And i see this fellow down the end of the bar, eddie murphy. Thats his name. I can say his name because this is on the Public Record and its been in the newspapers. And i knew he was a cop i didnt know much else about it. He was maybe six or eight years older than me. So i engaged in conversation to get some insight about things from him and to share news with him. So joe smirking here because he already read the book and and anyway, this it just hard to believe in this day and age because thank god and this is one of my themes, too, at the end of the book, Law Enforcement in america in general has so much over the last half century and become so much more professionalized. And for the problems we hear about and all the Police Shootings and other, the fact is that things are so much better and police are so much more professional now for whole host of reasons than than they were. I mean, 50 years ago, brutality was accepted routine in the big cities and corruption, i found out, was accepted routinely because i engaged guy eddie murphy in conversation. And he tells me he starts complaining to me and he tells me, number one, if im a college grad, youre about to be a college graduate. Im a fool to go in the Police Department and his complaints about it. He says the only way you can make any money this job is get into plainclothes. And he said, and then get assigned to harlem, he said, because theres a lot of money to be made. And even then, my naivete, i knew what he was talking about. I was just shocked. It was so open. Thats how it was in those days. It was so open. So in any event, he did tell me, though, that you could with the college degree, you could go work for the fbi, right. And after a year or two, eventually know, apply and become an agent and. I never do that because i believe the mystique which persisted for years that everybody in the fbi was a law school graduate. And i believe that then and actually it had the case for a long time. So the very next morning i took the subway to the fbi office on 69th street in manhattan, and i got an application and i applied and by the end of that summer, i was working the fbi office forward because this is an interesting point point. Oh, i go to jacksonville i go to i go to virginia and like five or six years go by and im transferred to the new york office and i make long story short, i wound up working organized crime in new york, and eventually i made what they call a relief supervised. You can sit on the desk and back up as the name implies youre the relief for the actual supervisor the first step into management in fbi and you can assign cases you you read the reports and you sign mail out and you see the correspond its coming in. So im sitting there one day and and a lot of it was informant reports from the the older wiser who had some good informants and. You would open a case based the informant reports you know thats thats mechanically thats how it was done so im reading this informant report and this one in agents report is that and we were focused on illegal gambling that was one way the fbi could attack organized we had no jurisdiction in narcotics yet and a lot of the organized control acts including title three and all that stuff that was still a year or two away. It was coming, but it was still away. So we were interested in illegal gambling. And heres this report that there was a wire and thats where the bookies operate and take the bets, horses and sports bets a wire room in a certain neighborhood in the bronx being protected by two plainclothes detectives and the guy had the name and one of them was eddie murphy. So citizen is a crow eddie murphy got do you want he got on plainclothes so i opened in a sign the case to the next available agent and eventually the fbi closed their case because they found out and this happens a lot that the Bronx District Attorneys Office was already investigating those plainclothes men and that wire room and eventually eddie murphy was indicted in bronx county and was thrown off the Police Department. What . Until i wrote this book, i never told anybody that it was this felon who recruited me into the fbi. But there is. You want to turn me in now. But in any event long answer to your question, i hope. You have some other question . No, its a good answer. Yes, its a great, great answer to the question. And, you know, its you didnt just have an interest in Law Enforcement. Clearly, you also had an interest in public. And being from new york, you ended up at Fordham University. Could you talk a little bit about your experience being an undergrad, youre a student at fordham and how your education inspired you, if it did to go your career . Well, it did. It did i had some wonderful some thought fabulous. We had a percentagewise, i think its fair to say. We had a lot more jesuit teachers, professors in those days than they do today. In fact, i would say clearly, the majority of which and of course, in those days was also mandatory, which i understand been relaxed. You had to take theology every year in the college and you also in the in the college of arts and sciences, you had to take every year, which pure to mystic philosophy. So it was like another theology course. But he gave you a real in your faith and in western civilization. Ill it that far to say that so that was inspiring and i was particularly lucky talking about fordham two of my two of my professors who both would men i got to know later became University President s. My father healy of i had him several years in a row because he taught government and political science. He later became president of fordham and was a mcmahon award to came to our dinner once quite a few years ago and then the other one i had four four in english as a freshman and a sophomore four had him for poetry and for the novel. The novel and other novels was a timothy o cheese. Timothy healy, who later came here to washington dc and became the president of georgetown university. And when he was finished with that, he, the president of the New York Public Library and timothy healy, quite an interesting character, too, had been in the army and he had a he had a great understanding of human nature and so that inspired me that me a grounding in a grounding in faith and a of things but i was still and im it comes across in the book i was still very idealistic to the extent of actually being naive on and that that changed. Well thank you for sharing your experiences that at fordham. I want to switch gears just a little bit to to writing the actual memoir. And are you able to share some of the original titles you had come up with for your book that the passed on . Oh, well, the subtitle for a long time was going to be the good, the bad and the which is now just a theme or the how the book is divided. The title early on for a long time the working title was a in justice and i like that. I still like title a journey in justice because im about justice and injustice throughout the book. Then several people who have successfully published books their own and far more successfully than did tell me. No, you have to have fbi in the title you put fbi in the title of a book itself, a journey in justice is, you know, every fairy, perhaps. So then for a long time it was an fbi journey. The good the bad and the ugly. And then the publisher insisted on the title we have now and ive had people me they dont like the title and i tell them, well, yeah, if you dont like the title, read the book and tell me after you read the book. If dont like the title. So but thats how that worked. Interesting. Did you read any to kind of help you prepare for this or were there any any other writers who youve looked to as great influences in your writing . Oh, quite a few on the on the very profession level. And i had some of these people read, some drafts of the book. Well, a guy whos here in d. C. , ron kessler, hes written he wrote two books about the fbi and two or three about the secret service. And i a lot of these people i had helped with background in some of their writing. He gave me some ideas and i saw how he did it several the Andy Mccarthy who who wrote several books dealing with justice he was a former u. S. Assistant attorney in new york city. He he also then a lot of other agents, a lot of them, actually. I mean, a lot a dozen maybe who have written own books. Ive read most of them and looked at most of them. And i will say this, some are better than others. How about that . Some are better than others. And i thought the ones that were better were the ones that were less personal and more factual all, and that they take them selves out of the story a bit more and put in others and realized in a lot of the really cases that i worked on and i, i mentioned a few already, there were a lot of other people did a lot on those cases are, a lot more than i did. And what i try in this book is to give credit where credit is due to other people, to other in one case, one guy who i think was actually a hero to Different Cases i was involved with him. Jim siano was still with us and jim siano ran to the gunfire. You hear doing that . I talk one aircraft hijacking case happened right here at Dulles Airport and he ran to the gunfire was right up close shooting it out with the hijacker before so we were both assigned here together. But before that we were both assigned together in in florida and in a case in there, a kidnaping case the merkel kidnaping case, which i talk about in some detail in the book, because its fascinating case, too. He the hero of that case, he caught the kidnaper in the in the swamps, the west coast of florida. He heard the shooting he went to the shooting he captured single handedly the kidnaper. So i mentioned him as a but there are others and when you read the book youll see and i think i give credit to a lot of other people who were involved and i kind of do the thing i did it in two chapters and then i kind of got waved off by some the people actually involved. Youre doing much of that. Were at the end of chapter. I would summarize what the different people are doing now, what became of them and thats a little bit interesting people. But i cut back on that a bit oh, sure. Well, youve clearly had many influences on on your road toward being an agent, but also as an author too. What kind of advice its just speaking of career paths would give toward young College Graduates today who are interested in a career in Law Enforcement do it. Thats the bottom line its very rewarding career theres a lot of different roles now for people and you have to all be a gun towed or a gun carrier. Theres a lot of forensic jobs. Theres lot of jobs in cyber. After i left the fbi, i stayed engaged with the fbi, particularly with their seizures division in west virginia, which provides enforcement services, id services and others to state and local. And i did a lot of consulting there for a couple of my clients, and i see all the good i mean, theres like 5000 people working out there. Maybe a dozen of them are agents and they do a lot of good with with dna and now rapid dna with fingerprints, with the National Crime information center, with of these things. They and i, ive told them this. Ive told the individuals that i talk to out there that, they they are literally. Through this technology and that theyre working on the back of it. Theyre literally preventing thousands of people from being raped, robbed, murdered assaulted every day. And, of course, never know that. And and couple of them told me they really appreciate hearing that. And one or two and which is kind of sad, one or two of them said, we never hear that from our voices. But when think about what they do, you know, and theyre connecting all these these crimes Everybody Knows about dna now, but also with fingerprints and other things, they do a lot of good. Theyre so someone who is interested in Law Enforcement. They dont necessarily have to be a gun carrier to do it. And theres a lot of options on a practical level. And i you talk to a lot of younger people on a practical level and, i think theres people in the room who might agree with a second this. If youre thinking it at all, put the application right now because a lot of these applications take a year, 18 months and forever to do a clearance and get a background. So you application with the secret service, the dea can be pending while you go do other things to try for things. Dont dont. And ive told young people this dont think well, i going to see if this thing doesnt work out then ill apply for this other thing know, apply for them all because its going to take so long anyway. Sure thats good advice. Well, wed love to hear some questions from audience, so. Okay, jack, would you like to go first or colorado, the fbi for you for on 1190, 97, i got retired from the cia but was working for a firm supporting cia come back to the terrorists or visit the cia. In 97 on television and now so you know capture of the terrorist who shot for cia employees outside through family. The fbi arrested that terrorist the 1997 people in the fbi. I gave a loud applause for what fbi accomplished that day. I know the name of the fbi agent. Well, i remember the incident incredibly clearly. The cars were lined up on route 23 waiting to make that hand turn into the cia. So and this is often when people attacked, so theyre kind of stuck in traffic. They cant hit the and run away. There were bumper to bumper lined up and the guy came and shot into the cars that were lined up waiting in turn. Yeah so the line yeah thank you for that comment. Yeah. You jack. Yes. Kathleen. Yeah, i was curious about the work that the fbi does overseas and you said it was mentioned overseas several places. So do you have any stories you can share with us about your work in particular paris . And also when you mentioned Princess Dianas. You were there when she died. If we were involved, fbi was involved in anything. Okay. So for the most part, the fbi not what we call operational overseas overseas, started back in World War Two, believe or not, the fbi got permission from the state department or whatever you want to say. They stationed three, three officer positions in ottawa, mexico city, mexico and london, england. This is in the midst of World War Two and in the negotiations back and forth they obtained the title attached a legal attache for the fbi agent to be assigned so that theyd be in within the embassy on an equal footing with the military attache and others at that, because the military attache was very powerful position back and there wasnt a cia as such abroad at that time. And then over the years it grew when was in canberra, australia, the capital of australia and in paris, france, there were maybe 20 posts abroad for the fbi. Im saying approximately, and they all were multiple covert countries from australia. I covered about nine south Pacific Island nations, including zealand, which was a main ally and client, and then other smaller island nations heard about samoa, fiji, etc. Etc. And then from paris. We covered course the principality of monaco, but also about half africa. When i started. In 94 in paris there no no legal attache in at all. The embassy in paris. And we had a staff maybe about five agents and five support people. By then we covered all the french speaking part of africa and a lot of other countries. And they did legal attache in rome covered the east side of africa, egypt down to somalia to south africa. And thats how we had a divide by the time i left, the fbi was in the process of opening an office in south africa, in algiers in rabat, morocco. Now theyve opened many more throughout africa. And louis freeh did a lot of that. He he saw, you know, there was a expression in the Us Government then with the military we need boots on ground. And louis freeh came up with the expression we need wingtips on the and it does make a big difference i mean all of these countries except i outright hostile countries to a greater extent all these other countries want cooperate. They want our help and they want to give us help and give us information. But you really need somebody physically there seeing eyeballing somebody, dropping by every day, having coffee with them in their office, having a cocktail with them at night. And there was a lot of that to get things done. And then they know who to go to and, how to work things out. So it was information exchanging for the most part. It wasnt just pure intelligence in the case of the fbi because without criminal responsibility in this country, we were also fronted for the state and local police. So in like our portfolio, i would say 50 of our portfolio was cases in the United States, be it los angeles. You know, san francisco, other cities where there was a fugitive, a murderer or was in france. And we interface with the French Police to get them to go out and apprehend that person and then initiate the extradition and all of that. So there was a lot of a lot of that. Thank you so much, kathleen, any other questions . Yes, please. Yeah. Hello. Thank you, sir. She the conversation i was curious if, the if you think the intelligence gathering, Domestic Intelligence thesis, sort of maybe the fbi should off track, where do you think that should have or would have gone otherwise . Was there natural agency for it or Homeland Security or something . Was was there some other place for. Well, that and there are people debate this as an honest debate about that and a lot of people right after that debated and it was it was proposed by a lot of people in and out of the government and in the press to separate break the fbi up or to have a separate Domestic Security Agency like they have in canada, like they have in britain. That didnt happen. I think that was a good for our democracy in the way we things in america. That was a good thing. And ill tell you why. Once again, the mindset, if youre operating this country, i dont think a domestic Intelligence Agency would fly, because you have to be very aware of peoples rights. And thats what i think has maybe diminished and needs to be restored. So you have to be aware of peoples rights. A Law Enforcement agency could do that better. The other thing and its of the secrets to how the fbi really and i think im frank about this in the book the f now this maybe 11 or 12,000 fbi agents the way the fbi in our country of 350 Million People or whatever it is, the way the fbi has succeeded is its Close Partnership with state and local police and in terms of counterintelligence work and use that term in this country, counterintelligence work or counterterrorism work. The state and local police are a force for the fbi and theyre the ones who get out and a lot of things for the fbi and bring it back home and in a place Like Washington dc where you such a big in fact several big Police Departments its not as apparent but lets say in wyoming or idaho, theres a Resident Agency in cheyenne, wyoming, or casper, one guy there, one gal in. Now. And for him to get his job done, he has to get along. The local sheriffs and the local chiefs of police. And when he needs something, i mean is as mundane as when the bank has been robbed. Hes wind up on the scene with the local sheriffs deputies and thats how they get things done. So the same thing extends to you do have instances echoes of an intelligence issue, counterintelligence issue or terrorism issue. Its those state and local police who are going to be bringing things back to the fbi and i submit that adam sestak Intelligence Agency alone would never have that connectivity with the state and local police that the fbi has and so wed lose out on a practical level, i think on a theoretical level its important to keep that knitted with a Law Enforcement agency for for the for the and i go into this a great deal in the book of of all First Amendment protections and thats another thing i talk about and i know were starting to go over time now but when was in the fbi can i end with this please . Unless somebody has questions and im not going to dog course. This is your show. When i was and this is a long time ago when i was first in the fbi and, i didnt go to law school as some, you know. My new agents class was only about 22 and it was all men and and the fbi academy in 1967 had not opened yet. The the academy the new academy at quantico. No, i had the J Edgar Hoover building been complete. It was still being built. So when we went to to become a new to join the fbi, we told to report to a certain room in the Justice Building, the big monumental building sits there on pennsylvania avenue and and that was i should have been intimidated. Thats another thing as i say, i was naive, but i also very enthusiastic so i wasnt intimidated. And we went into the Justice Building that morning and on the fifth floor, i believe theres a classroom classroom there a very famous and in World War Two, its the room that was used as a courtroom where they tried the nazi saboteurs who were convicted by a military tribunal and most of them were executed and. Then in the late fifties, early sixties, jimmy stewart, the movie star, made a movie, the fbi story and. A lot of the scenes are filmed in that room, in the classroom, and you see him there lecturing in that very room. So were in this room and we know the history of the room and and we would go to quantico to the marine base for three or four days at a time for firearms training. But all the other time we were in that classroom and most of the classroom work then and it this almost three months year there was about the us constitution. Now i hadnt gone to law school mean i knew vaguely about some it of course, but not i had never taken an actual course constitutional law or criminal law, which a lot of my classmates had been exposed to. A lot most of my classmates were Law School Graduates and abe exposed to all of this and the we had what i talked about the jesuits these instruc is at at that time they were all special agents who were attorneys special agent attorneys who were instructors and they fabulous instructors. I mean everybody i talked to from that area they remember these guys by name they were just so inspiring and great and and they talked about the constitu they talked about specifically the bill of rights the first ten amendments. And they talked very in great detail about the fourth, fifth and sixth amendment and and they told us and i remember this and ive told this story, the defense attorney said, dont even believe me when i say this. And they told us, you should not think of the fourth, fifth and sixth amendment as an obstacle you have to come. You should embrace now, most people dont think people in Law Enforcement are taught that. But thats what we were taught. And that part of our role as fbi agents, which to protect the civil of americans which meant protecting the bill rights. We were taught that and i dont have it with me now. I should. But we were given Charlie Donnelly was the name of one of the lead legal instructors and he gave us each a pocket copy of constitution and he said us to keep the constitution in your breast pocket. And when you are interviewing a citizen or when you are searching somebody is home. If you have that copy of the constitution in your pocket, you wont go wrong. You go off the reservation. And a lot of us did keep the copy of the constitution in our pocket and and we a had to remind others about but thats how it was emphasized with us today and i fear that and i have suggested to people high up in the bureau, very high up in the fbi today that thats what they got to get back, making the constitution a primary focus of training and development to get things done. Can i end that or is there another. Im not dodging questions, but maybe we can end on that to the. Sure. I dont think we have any. Yes, we can. Absolutely i know that. Thank you so much time. Thank you, daisy, to hear from you so well. Youve done a great job. Thank you. Thank you very much. And thanks to book tv, too. Yes. Glad