Many of the people who had taken to the streets the last few years. Theres been a shooting and seemed like its happening for s one it wasnt one of the massive nights, but i remember seeing that and just, and making a note in my notebook that day that it captured a lot of the feeling that id been seeing and hearing from demonstrators. Host what was your experience in ferguson . Guest so i got to ferguson two days after Michael Brown had been killed. At the time i was a National Reporter for the post covering politics, i was covering congress. A very different beat. And i happened to be free. I had a bag packed. Id just gotten back from a trip to cover a senate race in michigan, and we were having a conversation around the office about, hey, you guys see whats going on in missouri, whats our Coverage Plan . I initially offered, hey, i can call some of the congressional c representatives, maybe theyll call for a federal investigation, get a d. C. Ish scoop, right . Finally an editor said, well, could you go . Could you get on a plane . I said, sure, why not . Got on the plane, landed on the 11th in ferguson, missouri, for what i thought was going to be a few day assignment, i thought i would maybe get a feature story for the weekend and be back for sunday football, you know, that weekend at home. Instead, i ended up staying two, almost three months. [laughter] almost full time. We had a ferguson bureau there. Be as i was there, on the second or third day i was there, myself and another reporter were actually arrested during the coverage of the protests, and we were the first two of what would end up being dozens of reporters who at some point in time were taken into custody by police there. There was just this day after day of demonstrations, there were mass arrests, people being arrested at times indiscriminately, at times with cause. And that created a whirlwind, and i became one of the figures of the story. Host Wesley Lowerys our guest. Youve heard our beginning conversation. If you would like to participate and call in, talk with him about some of the issues surrounding ferguson, the black lives mattel movement, etc. And some of the racial issues that the country has faced in the last couple of years, we want to hear from you. 202 is the area code, 7488200 in the east and central time zones, 7488201 for those of you in the mountain and pacific time zones. Is this a black and white issue that were facing, or is this a black and blue issue that were facing . Guest well, i think in some ways its both, because i think its a black and blue issue that has began by our historic black and white issue, right . We know this is a country, as president obama would describe it, was founded with an original sin. We built in racial inequity into the very fabric of our nation, right . Thats something weve spent hundreds of years some would argue we were very happy withh the way we had it, but we have since spent time trying to undo that and make up for that, right . But i do think there is a, because of that, theres a historic relationship between black communities and law Law Enforcement that dates back to the days when Police Officers were slave catchers, right . Theres always been an historic relationship. Its interesting, the former Chicago Police superintendent gave a speech where he talked about so many of the policies whether it be during jim crow, whether it be people who were leading the lynch mobs historically have been Police Officers. The police have, for all of american history, been the face of physical oppression for black and brown americans. F so sometimes we talk about how can we rebuild the relationship or how can we restore when in reality we need to be talking about creating a new relationship because theres never been a Good Relationship g between black americans and the police. Host Wesley Lowery, cleveland, ferguson, baltimore, minneapolis, new york, charleston. We had a black president during that time. Is that coincidental, or is that is there a connection . Guest i think, i certainly think theres a connection, you know . I think there is i think that cuts in two directions. First, you know, i do think its coincidental in that weve seen unrest, and weve seen Police Shootings every year of our modern history. This was going on during the bush years, during the clinton years. We might not have been talkings. About it, and we might not have covered it as a media in the same way, but these issues have always existed. But i do think the presidency of barack obama activated a level of activism and politicalva anxiety that perhaps had not existed prior to him. And i think that worked in two different ways. Ha you know, first, in the book i try to profile many of the young activists who have come to the forefront and become the faces of the protest movement. And so many of them had their entry into politics through the election of barack obama. They voted in 2008 for him or 201 for him, often for the first time. Youre talking about 2 20somethings, right . Many of them canvassed for him. And i think very often this turn of phrase, this idea that we needed to have a black presidenr to understand the limitations of a black presidency, right . Barack obama was elected on this mandate to change washington as we knew it, to bring us together. And in his dnc speech, he talked about were not a black america, a white america, an hispanic america. A. Am in his Election Night speech he says were not a collection of blue states and red states, were a United States, right . But he was incapable himself of bridging this divide and bridging this gap. We know this, right . Our politics is as divided as its ever been if not more so. And i think because of that, because so many voters, especially young black people who had projected onto president obama this hope for a differentj country, this hope for a different world, for a politicss where outcomes and experiences would not be defined by race then became remarkably frustrated when that prophesy was not coming true, right . Trayvon martin was still dead,d, we were still having these conversations about race and ethnicity in colleges and insa cultures, still seeing diversity issues in our popular culture, right . And i, ill never forget an activist look at claire mccaskill, the senator from missouri, during a town hall, t and she was, you know, encouraging the protests, encouraging the activism, but she said, you know, what you guys need to do is you need tot register to vote, you need to turn out what we often hear in terms of how people should politically engage. And i remember this activist saying i voted for barack obama twice, and Michael Brown is still dead. This idea that just the existence of a black president could not, in fact, e erase the history and the reality that we live in. N. Host they cant kill us all, is the name of the book. Wesley lowery is our guest. Hes a National Reporter with the Washington Post, and lets take some calls. Ryan in sedona, arizona. Hi, ryan. Caller hi, how you doing . Ive got a few comments to make. Thank you, bud, for writing your book and for standing up for us people. But im a white american, and if i was black in america, id probably be dead. Ive already been denied health care for a preexisting condition, ive already been locked up in prison for something that is now legal. Soi i was fired from my job because of the economy. And ive tried to be the best american i can possibly be, and now im suffering from other Health Conditions that ive also been poorly cared for in this free country that we live in. And if we just go back just 40, 50 years ago, you know, 60 years and white women treated poorly with black women, indians, black americans host tell you what, ryan, i think, i think weve got your point. Wesley lowery, is there a larger picture that we can draw from your book and tie it into ryans experience . Guest of course. T into ryan, i appreciate the call, and im sorry for what sounds like a very difficult set of circumstances, you know . I think we all as americans can empathize with each other. I think one of the things weve seen over the last eight years on both sides of the spectrum are these large protest movements that have been born out of political frustration,at right . This begins with the tea party, occupy wall street then on the left, a resurgence of republicans in the tea party again in 2014 as they take the senate and then black lives matter or the movement for black lives. And i think that speaks to, i think very often we want to set up a juxtaposition that either you work within the system or outside of the system. Why wont those protesters all go vote . That type of sense of reality. I see some democratic beauty in the act of protest. And in many ways it is our original means of interacting with our government. Its what this country was founded on. And i think that its unsurprising to me that the obama years and the time were in now and likely the trump years moving forward have been marked by street activism andwa street protests because its a time as the president so eloquently described it while he was campaigning a time when gridlock has suffocated americans. People are frustrated. Why isnt the economy more turned around, why at the time, why wasnt there health care . And i think that people who have voted and who feel like they have done everything right, this was many of the people in ferguson which is unlike what a lot of, you know, a place where most People Living in ferguson had made it out. Theyd done everything right, and they still couldnt understand why they were either being treated this way or they hadnt achieved what theyt thought was the american dream. So i think that ryans call kinm of fits into the ethos that were feeling and seeing across the nation as i interview people. Host well, lets hear from sid whos calling in from st. Louis, very close. Go ahead, sid. Caller i thank you for writing the book, and i have one question. In the view of the new administration and donald trump being famous or no to have to yous for notorious for the central park issue with not even still acknowledging that the men who were initially convicted were innocent, how do you think that theyre going to deal with his administration with the policing of minority communities and immigrants, and what do youo think the Community Needs to do . Because i have black maleha children, i have hispanic children, i have immigrant children in my extended family, and im afraid for them. Host thank you, maam. Guest thank you so much for the call. Y i think thats a really important question, somethingg ive been reporting a lot about now and thinking a lot about. What we see very often after times of unrest, especially times of unrest between minority communities and police, you think about years during the, 60s and 50s and 40s, we very often see a law and order backlash to that. The nixon election in 68, now arguably the trump direction in 2016. The Obama Administration has been very specific and aggressive in using the department of justice to try to address these issues. Most of the activists dont think theyve done enough, but with that said, its unquestionable the Obama Administration has done more than any modern presidency in terms of using the department of justice to investigate Police Departments attempts to provide Community Policing resources and to, and also to require information from Police Departments. One project i worked on was tracking police killing, how many people were being shot and kill by the police. Thats data the federalki government does not keep. Donald trump, on the other hand, he has statemented essentially we dont believe that the federal government should be requiring the local departments to be reporting this data, we dont want to harass them for this. Hes stated many times that he wants to restore more law and order. He said in a questionnaire to the International Association of chiefs of police that he wants to rebuild the relationship between the federal government and local Police Departments which sounds to most observers,c essentially, that he wants to be less critical of local police than perhaps the Obama Administration has been. And so, and what we know about the potential new attorney general, jeff sessions, senator jeff sessions, is that he also has had, certainly, a law and order streak. So it seems very unlikely that many of the steps that have been taken during the obama years to attempt to reform local policing will be continued. D. And i think what that most likely means is that for people who want to see changing in local police, theres going to be a need certainly to work at a local level, because i dont know that the federal government camry is going to be cavalry is going to be coming in, certainly not for the next four years. Host that report that the Washington Post did on Police Shootings, is that available on is thab site . Guest yes, it was. Host where would be the best best place to find it . Guest google Washington Posts fatal force which was the name of the project. Host fatal force. Guest t on the site its on the site. Were still working on this. We have now, for two years ins, realtime, attempted to track fatal Police Shootings. So we tracked 990 of them last year, theyre in a realtime, searchable database. I dont know what the number is exactly for this year so far, but were about on pace to have the same number of fatal Police Shootings, and all of that data and information is available in realtime online. E. Host they cant kill us all has a point of view. Is that difficult for you as a reporter for the post to put your point of view in this book . Guest yes and no. Sometimes. I think that, you know, i believe in transparency and honesty and fairness, right . I think those things are whats most important. What was difficult in covering this story, i take that back, it wasnt difficult, but one thing that was present during covering this story was that at one point i became part of it. Reluctantly, and i wasnt too happy about it. But also that, you know, i was a young black man writing very often about the deaths of youngo black men or old black men who looked like my father or young black women. And i think that that, i think sometimes we lie to ourselves when we believe that there is some type of objective neutral that exists. Yp as reporters, as journalists, we all bring our Life Experiences into the stories we cover. When thats what stories we believe are worthy of our coverage or not, whether its how hard we work to get that extra interview or how sympathetically we frame someone. Ex so i think its important to be up front and acknowledge who we are, and i think that helps us tell the stories more accurately. From they cant kill us all, between january and august 15, 24 unarmed black people have been shot by police while black men and women make up just 12 of the nations population, they accounted for nearly 25 president of those being shot and killed by the police. Ken in southfield, michigan, youre on with Wesley Lowery, author of they cant kill us all. Caller yes, mr. Lowery, i take a different view on all of this. Why are young black men constantly involved with the police in terms of police altercations . And i go back to the rodney king affair. I remember on the tenth anniversary of the rodney king incident, they interviewed rodney king. Nt and heres what he admitted. He says, well, i was on parole at the time, and i knew that my only chance was to put up a fight, which is what he did. By putting up a fight, he became the victim. Whereas he was a paroled armed robber at the time of that event, and he knew he was going to go to jail unless he put up a fight. Why are there so many altercations, and why dont people why do people resist arrest when they can settle the issues when they get back into the courtroom . Host lets hear from Wesley Lowery. Guest of course. I appreciate the question, and i think its a fair question, something i get a lot from readers and people who write in who are reading articles, right . Why is there so much scrutiny of the police and less scrutiny of the criminals . Be first of all, i think that there is a fair point to be made about that. Obviously, i dont think that people should be necessarily resisting arrest or fightingd with Police Officers. Certainly not killing Police Officers. Thats always a tragedy, when we have officers killed, and weve seen many cases of that, right . But i do think that when we and its hard to explain why people who are breaking the law break the law. Ho but i do think that there is something to be said for a undoing of the Police Legitimacy in many communities. And that one of the reasons that we follow the law, when you think about our criminal Justice System, our criminal Justice System only can work if the majority of the people follow the law. There are far fewer Police Officers than there are citizens. If we all went out and decided to rob a bank tomorrow, theree would not be enough police to catch us. We couldnt do it. The system only works when its seen as legitimate, and most people see a detinter and a reason deterrent and a reason not to do it. I think there are a lot of things that break down legitimacy in a community of Law Enforcement. One, historical realities. The fact that there has never been a positive relationship between police and black and brown communities. I think ongoing policies, stop and frisk or other policies that people see as discriminatory. Ive done some reporting on homicide clearance rate, the idea that in many of these communities when people really need the police, the police are unable to solve their crimes. E all of those things, i think, at times can contribute to a lack, a delegitimizing of Police Departments and of Police Officers that i do think likely leads to people being less likely to comply with officers. E i think the other thing thats worth noting and remembering too is that when we analyze these incidents, right, whether it be rodney king or Michael Brown or sandra bland, while i do think there are fair questions to be asked, its our job as society to hold our Police Officers to a different standard than we hold a paroled armed robber, right . Any action of a Police Officerff is done in our name, so every boot to the face of ronaldny king, every bullet to the back of walter scott was done in the name of the taxpayers, and i think we need to require a certain level of accountability and a different standard than we do someone whos breaking a law. Host ray is calling in from kill gore, texas. Really ray, youre on tv with author Wesley Lowery. Caller yeah. H. I think mr. Lowery has a myopic view of everything. The problem with the black lives Matter Movement is that theres more white People Killed by police than there are black, and theres and yall lump all the black people that are attacking Police Officers or attacking someone else and gets killed justifiably with all the others that shouldnt have gotten killed. He and if yall would quit doing the racist type deal, the white people would join up with you and have a movement to deter some of this. Weve all had some policemen that have not done right and treated us wrong, but far more often the black people are resisting arrest, and theyre running from the police, and theyre fighting with the police. Host all right, ray, i think we got the point. Wesley lowery. Guest so, ray, i really appreciate the call. Thats another point i hear verh often, and youre right. One thing we know from our study at the Washington Post because, again, before we did this post, and the guardian did a similar project, we didnt know. We literally didnt know how often and what race. Yes, the majority of people shot and killed by Police Officers are white. But the majority of the people in the United States of america are also white. I think its one of the reasons its important to look at the percentage of populations, right . Black men are 6 of the population yet 24 of the people being shot and killed by the police, it speaks to a potential disparity. I think the point you make is an interesting one, and i think people make it very often, the idea of is this just an issue of race . Is it more broadly a police use of force, an issue of what role police should be playing in our society broadly . One thing i will say is that weve run the numbers, weve looked at what are the precipitating issues of these fatal Police Shootings. Black women are no more likely to be attacking a Police Officer than a white person, in fact, a white person is more likely to have been armed than a black person shot and killed by the police which speaks potentially to the idea of is there an implicit violence . Are black people being viewed more sinisterly or violent inherently than white people, and is that seeping into the use of fatal force . Its an open question, something that researchers are looking at and were continuing to look at. Thanks for the call, ray. Host they cant kill us all is the name of the book. The author is Washington Post reporter Wesley Lowery and,er again, the Washington Post web site if people want to see the report that they put together, they can google or searchgether Washington Post fatal force . Guest fatal force or Police Shooting database or Police Shootings host and were showing it to our viewers palastin. Good evening, and welcome to the center for Strategic International studies. Im andrew schwartz, Senior Vice President and its my honor to host James Kitfield and we are doing this in partnership with the center for the study of northwestern the center for the study of the presidency and congress. We were just talking upstairs. One of the really wonderful things about the center for the study of the presidency and congress and csis they were both founded by the late david apture. He was a remarkable man who we all loved and he lived to see this bui
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