Transcripts For CSPAN2 Grown-Up Anger 20170813

I want to give a special thank you to the sponsors. Todays Program Broadcast on cspan2 book tv. If we have time at the end of the q a session with the author, we ask that you use the microphone provided. Before we begin todays program we ask that you silenced her phones and turn off the flash and now. [applause] anan awardwinning author, kuwat and grammy nominee from new york city on the hudson river. His new book that willhi officially be published on tuesday, so we are in the future right now is grown up in grbac connected histories of bob dylan and the massacre of 1913. As the title suggests, the book brings together three tales the biographies of bob dylan and Woody Guthrie into the back story of the tragedy of Northern Michigan and that is put into the context of the Early Labor Movement in this country. They call this decade as a link richly researched story impeccably told. Chicago Teachers Union says if you are not sure why we need unions consider the grown up anger and must need. It is an essential companion to this book if you want to hearl p the songs, chicago country and senior is the Founding Member joining us and will perform a few of the songs that aregs particularly important to the fascinating book. For a thought provoking and entertaining our please welcome Daniel Wilson and emily kane. [applause] the fourth story in this bo book. If i was 13 and angry and it leads to the discussion of bob dylan. If you can get a back story to introduce a song that we are going to hear how youve got to the first song we are going to do. I was furious and general and they kept saying what are you mad about and i would say everything. Thats not useful. Its just true. I cant help that i am and at some point in the future when i was 13 that a Rolling Stone came on the radio and this guy understands. He knows why im angry. Hes telling the truth. I co i could barely understand the words as is often the case. It was the sound of the thing. He ha had maybe three or four f records by then to figure out who he was and when i got to the first record, there was a song called song to woody which was a song to Woody Guthrie and ioo thought im in the search here. Theres some connection and i knew who he was and hed written this land is your land and i had have no idea if he was alive or dead so the song seems to me to be revealing about the man. With that whats here and only sing a song. I am going to accompany her on the mandolin which is sort of an appropriate instrument for this i think. W world prince is a king a Woody Guthrie, wrote you a song sick and hungry tiger and foreign it looks like its dying and its hardly been born a Woody Guthrie, i know what you know all the things that im saying and many times more im singing you this on, but i cant sing enough cause theres not many men that done the things that youv done heres to cisco and sunny and leadbelly to and to all the good people that travel with you heres to the hearts and the hands of the men that come with the dust and are gone with the wind im leaving tomorrow, but i could leave today somewhere down the roadre dow someday the very last thing that id want to do the is to say ive been having some hard traveling too [applause] now, you discovered that this tune that bob dylan had used had been swiped from a song that Woody Guthrie had written, which is an incredible turning point for this narrative it for your explanation of the topic. Explain how in digging into the canon of bob dylan cover you discovered Woody Guthrie and how that changed. Sure. This is for you younger people. When you have t had to go throuh record seems to find music. The best they could do he was famous at the time. Im now sort of getting to college and getting this g Research Takes a while. As you can tell, the song that is beautifully done is a song both of admiration and a kind ot sadness that its gone. The great days are over with so im listening to this song and its called 1913 massacre. Massac i listened to the 1913 massacre and it is about a strike in Northern Michigan and some people that die in the process that somehow i didnt quite understand but i thought that is familiar to me somehow and i played it again picking up the new and thoughtfully to second, its the same nobody and i thought this is a clue, this is a mystery and im heading down the track now. This is interesting because Woody Guthrie was known forng taking other peoples melodies and in the book you say he actually adapted from an old English Channel would guthrie did. Its the process that means you steal things. But there was a theory about it. Joe hill was an early writer of songs and the wobblies that were an organizer in this part of the century started writing songs to the hymnal rallies because when they had a rally the Salvation Army would show up and start singing and the wobblies would be drowned out and the solution is to write new words to thethe same melodies so they could drown out the Salvation Army. O so, it became sort of a technique which is that if youou had a nobody and people already knew it, they were halfway intoe the song already and care about it. So, in this case, i think bob dylan said im going to give a tribute to Woody Guthrie byy taking the melody of Woody Guthrie. He knew the song because it was on a record that sold probably seven copies and was way out of print by the time he was around. Ellen does this and other songs. This also gets to one of the things that is fascinating to both of these guys in particul particular. I believe you call it self invention. That neither one is what they wanted people to think they were. They grew up in comfortablep ino surroundings. Both of them had this image of someone that was just barely scraping by that they grew up in comfort. Bob dylan is Robert Zimmerman from a middleclass family inans northern minnesota and he went to the university of minnesota where he discovered Woody Guthrie and turned himself into the man. Theres pictures of him posed exactly the same way. He just wanted to be Woody Guthrie because that is the was truth. So, Woodrow Wilson guthrie was born in oklahoma to a guy that had played a lot of money by helpfully say this politely, trading with the indians is the nicest way to say it, stealing a love of land in the territory before it began in the states and after he became a state. Es im going to be the biggest of them all. And he created a persona of the ultimate and people kept saying you freely lived a life commented and he would say i can do a good impersonation. People want our heroes to be authentic. It seems like he may have said that there was an impression that he was to be authentic and Ben Dillingham comes along and basically takes the similar and expounds on it. It seems in his earlier days he was more an impersonator. I start a chapter in the booe saying hea booksaying hes a we says that. He says i make things up. It helps me. It creates these persona of things they could say. This leads into the third part of the book which is a very deep history. Calumet michigan is about 400 miles of streets north of here. You get to green day you are i about half the air in the upperr peninsula. At at one point you say that it goes back to the prehistoric times but do you take a deep dive boat made you decide you were going to do that keep the faith life into this story behind the song. Each one of these guys believe that they were telling the truth and were motivated by thinking kind of sequence. So, dylan got inspired by woodyh guthrie. If im the fourth character i hear bob dylan and say thats the truth ive got to figure out their story so its all following this line of anger back into the inspiration was the early part of the 20th century and the Progressive Movement when there was going to be a Labor Movement to counterer capitalism. One of the key event of death was a strike in Northern Michigan because it was the moment when workers look like they were going to take over and share the wealth. It didnt happen. It failed and he wrote about the song and it was a lot about its failure. S he wrote it in about 1944. It had that same sad melody you will hear in a moment but in 1913 when it happened in 1944 because Woody Guthrie thought he was fighting world war ii to get rid of all fascists and capitalism in general. And he got to the end and was in the merchant marines and said you know, we beat the nazis but the system hasnt changed. If you can give a thumbnail as to how we got to that point. This was a very paternalistic operation in michigan. It was wilderness and so some people from boston invested money and turned it into a place where you live in a company house, the kids went to become the school, buried in theecompan Company Cemetery and was a closed circle essentially. The wobblies came up and tried to organize and then the federation of miners. It was essentially lost and the winner of Northern Michigan youre going to make it through if you got a job. It was wearing down and dining out and had a party for the kids at the strikers to try to encourage them many of which were immigrants, finished do you want me to tell the story . Told the story because the song is more powerful when you do know the story. Hi they were about to hand out presents and somebody walks in but never identified two and yelled fire. People start going down the one stairwell and if they cant get out. They crushed each other and at the end of there are 74 people dead. Sixtysomething under the age of 12. And again, depending upon how you read this it is either a mass murder or it was a terrible accident. I will go on after the songen about the debate that is the lead up to that and it didnt end the strike totally because the money started coming in but its a story which i think its a kind of major part of American History that people dont know about and part of my interest was i often hear the stories of strikes and things and i think this is the last making about the history. Answer i wanted to see the facts as far as i could tell him if i got there than i could see why they wanted to write a song about it and why dillingham got inspired maybe i could see why you like a Rolling Stone got ratings on the radio. Those of you from the chicagt area that has been around for a while will have a memory of the 2003 nightclub disaster does that ring a bell that was an incident not far from here and a fight broke out and 21 people were killed on the stairwell rushing to get out of the nightclub so that story had a littlthe story hada little bit e with people around chicago. So listen to the words this is a very sad song and you will recognize the melody. Take a trip with me to 1913 to tell you michigan anyplace called italian where the miners are having their Big Christmas ball i will take you singing and dancing is heard everywhere. I would shake hands with the people you see and watch the kids gather around the Big Christmas tree you ask about work and you ask about pay theyll tell you they make less than a dollar a day working for copper claims risking their lives so its fun to spend christmas with children and wives there is talking and laughing and songs in the air the spirit of christmas is there everywhere before you know what your friends with us all and youre dancing around and around in the hall a little girl sits down by the Christmas Tree lights to play the piano so youve got to keep quiet to hear all this fun you what not realize one of them screams there is a fire keep on with your party there is no such thing but they held the door and we could not get out. The and then others followed a hundred or more but most everybody remained ot the floor the gun thugs they laughed at their murderous joke while the children were smothered on the stairs by the door such a terrible sight i never did see we carried our children back up to their tree the scabs outside still laughed at their spree and the children that died there were 73 the piano played a slow funeral to and the town was lit up by a cold christmas new appearance they cried and the miners the mountain see what your greed for money has done. Some people feel that song is in fair and part of the book you actually went up to calumet and talked to people and there was a quote from someone that thoughtt there was, what do they call it, they didnt like it. It was a lousy end up miserables song. What is the truth you discover discovered. If they both end the theory was the cloud was coming down thenin it wasnt people outside that would kill them if they open now and if someone was on the door and keep them closed that meant conceivably these people hadclod been murdered and it wasnt juse an accident. He wrote a book about it and believed they were holding the door. I dont know if they were holding the door or not. Thats what they set up years later to honor this event or communicate it, they said the doors opened in which meant that no one had killed them and ifd you look at the blueprints and talk to anybody that lived there, everyone knew the doors opened uopen that they didnt my held them, but opening and was a way of saying dont worry this is nobodys fault. We can all heal together and it was a way of covering up the incident. As i say the strike was lost, people had to go back to work and it was i think 1940 something before they got a union up there and this sort oft simmered in the town and thee region and it was a way to make peace so when they heard the song. It has since been changed to not mention them at all because that would be the easiest way to deal. So, this was to commemorate a failure in the Labor Movement this song wasnt a triumphant song at all and as you look back on the labor history and the promise that if never materialized, this is a source of their anger. It is a little different. Its partly he comes to new york to meet in 1961 and Woody Guthrie is incapacitated by a nerve disease, cant light a cigarette or played the guitar. But even larger than that theree is no Union Movement and in 19 he thought im going to go and get in the movement and have big unions but there were not any movement by 1961 and he couldnt find the movement he thought he was going to be part of. So for him to borrow the melody guthrie says it didnt really work in 1913 and that is the tone in that song, dylan is saying i guess its not going to work in 1961 either. And then of course dylan turns away from the folks tradition. He rejects a lot of that. Is this a turning point or he is going to write the times are changing that is all in the future so he will keep t pursuing that but he is my lastn idle. There are these superhuman movements and in 19 he said that isnt going to be the case, i dont believe it. Take me through the story a little bit more. He doesnt go out and become this icon right away. He bounced around from coast to coast and was trying to find he is identity. He was going to be a commercial singer and the commercial singer at the time the epitome of what they could do and achieve is to go to la and its what roy rogers did and there are pictures if youve ever seen a picture of him he typically looks like a hobo and they say this machine kills fascists. Hes a leftwing hero. Theres earlier pictures he looks like a young gene off tree except he cant get at parkheadd on the one side very well be as if h. So he comes to la to try to that and first of all runs into the whole situation of what he called the starvation armies of people without work and he also ran into the communist party that made a lot of sense to him and there were the people out in the fields organizing better than anybody else. Appearing to be never joined the party but he came pretty close and the other people that were researching it at the time that wrote a book called the factory in the field or something likel that were all interested in communism because it looked in the middle of the depression like the present system does and work at all so guthrie started doing that and eventually got thrown off the Radio Station where he started doing cowboy songs because he was such a partyline communist. I dont know a more polite way to say that. I guess i could use socialism and we would all feel more comfortable. But he believed in thehe organization had left the job and came to new york not long after where he was greeted as the communist party has the answer of the proletarian singer. Pa there was a quote in one of the papers that said marx wrote, one end of it and now hes going ton sing it. For a while he was the guy and foughfought that fight but by te time he writes this in the 1913 massacre, he doesnt think it is going to work. He Still Believes it but he doesnt think that they are going to get there in 1944. But that song itself is propaganda is what youre saying. Hes taking this version ofhi events and has put his own spin on it. Except the last line see what your money has done its a weird last line for propaganda. As i discuss in the book it depends on who you think is. Hes talking about the owner of the mine saying you busted the strike and therefore you killed these people but theres also the sense that hes talking to us. See what your greed for money has done . That makes me want to throw my hands in the air like i didnt do it, but we did it a littlet bit. De his m. To succeed. Is it your sense that gwendolyn at guthrie gets changed his view and trajectory of his career . He said i cant follow this guide is nothing to follow anymore. Thats what he called the first substantial song. He was going to write about joe hill but then he started writing songs and they swerve. Here we have bob dylan as a Nobel Laureate in a strange sort of events but what happened wasnt so much the folk music that was rejected as the whole value system. There were these are dreams people were talking about that dont exist anymore. Got very involved in the civil rights and then he turned his back on that and said you know, on the other hand, in a way he said be an individualist. Right . Go your own way. Way. And Woody Guthrie would have argued that people werent getting together and being organized. Ge dylans career famously takes the turn from folk to rock, from acoustic to electric. Lk this is part of his evolution, right . Its part of his rejection. And a song that were going to close the program with is, you know, i dreamed i saw st. Augustine, is a rejection in some ways of the song that it borrows the melody from enormous sadness. Dylan see, i dont think the change from folk to rock was as big as its made out to be off. When hes writing masters of war or hard rain is ive got to tell it my way. I cant be Woody Guthrie who cant be joe hill. Its going to be different every time. G he kept, i think, dylan kept reporting and trying to tell truth and fighting the fight, but it was a whole different way and eventually a whole different sound to go with it. So when you look at the arc of the Labor Movement, when you look at what happened in call you met and in other situations and how the Labor Movement today is fairly weak, especially the private sector Labor Movement, when you look back, do you see as a historian looking at that areas where they made mistakes, where they tactically, politically undermined their own efforts or failed to take action they should have . I, i dont know. I dont think im going to walk into that trap, thank you very much. [laughter] good try though. I think part of what did happenn was in the 60s, the vaunted 60s that i leved through and lived through and was never sure was such a revolutionary era, part of what was happening was america wasen incredibly prosperous, and unions made deals with business to keep it prosperous. And its totally understandable to keep jobs. You know, we look back now with some nostalgia, i guess, at, you know, car manufacturing jobs and other jobs that guaranteed a lifetime salary and pensions. And thats all major gains for the unions. But it wasnt changing the system. And guthrie would have argued, you know, thats a bandaid on a situation. It was great for there was a decade that was amazing, but from the 70s on, wages have not increased if you do them in real value, you know, if you do the core responding corresponding values. And i think there was an illusion that somehow we should work out a prosperity for everyone by union and management compromising, and i dont think thats worked. That was more guthries youre saying thats guthries vision. And was it dylans version at one point . Do you feel that dylan was connected to that kind of philosophy with that kind of specificity . Ph well, you know, he wrote a song called union sundown. Sure, it was a good idea once til greed got in the way, is the chorus. Right . I think he kind of bereaved in it. I dont think believed in it. I dont think he was very interested in popular movements at the end of the day. D he was interested in writing great songs, and he was very good at that. But his politics were always a little theres an amazing interview i found right on the march on selma, and hed been very close to sncc, he doesnt go to the march. He plays a concert with joan baez the night before, and she goes and he doesnt. He goes to finish a record and do some promotion of his own career. Nd and then he gets interviewed afterwards, and they say what do you think, you know, what do you think about selma . He said, well, i think its great that people are marching, but its not going to change anything. If they get to vote, theyre going to vote for the same corrupt politicians we have now. Theres something more fundamental we have to do here. And that rings a bell with me. But the way he pursued it was to to go and try to tell the truth as much as he could, which is what got me started on this search, right . Theres the truth. So it works in a way, but its h different approach, i think. It seems like in some ways dylan has more image than performance. Youre talking about his role in the 60s. Hes not going to that event, hes not and he didnt, you know, hes never been someone who speaks out no, but he does amazing,. Transformative thats kind of a word thing where, you know, for example, when the black Panther Party is putting together their first newsletter, this is, what, late 60s, who they put on the stereo is bob dylan. And they talk about it. They go thats the sound of what we want to do. Not the words so much, but just that feeling of, goddamnit, im going to get this right and tell the truth inspired people in all kinds of ways without saying, come on, everybody, lets organize. It was a different approach to the thing. Hes never, has dylan ever been, like, playing a song at a political rally, someone who would, like, introduce a candidate . I mean, a lot of performers these days hitch their wagons to well, he played for obama, and he played for the pope. I dont know what we get from that. [laughter] you know, he got burned badly, i think, by being, you know, he was going to be the great leader. He didnt want to be the great leader. He wanted to be a singer songwriter. He plays for farm aid, for example, he did that a bunch to help farmers in the midwest mostly. But, you know, i think hes and hes written songs, certainly, that are crusading songs. But i dont think hes ever wanted to organize even as much as someone like springsteen has whos been much more involved that way. Right. What about guthrie . Guthrie made most of his living and spent most of his time playing for communist gatherings. Guthrie died in 67, right . So hes got, i mean, we never really know what would have happened in his career had he lived long must have to do you feel like, what do you think he might have done if he had that well, he was sick by 55, by the mid 50s, you know, he couldnt play guitar. Essentially, he was in a hospital. So theres what would he have done . I dont know. He would have made trouble. It was what he was very good at. You know, its hard to predict. I think he probably would have you know, guthrie walk out on a lot of events that would have made him famous. He had jobs, he had radio jobs, National Radio jobs, and he just said i dont want to do i dont like the feel of this ande would walk away. Bob dylan, for all of his rebellion, became a pop star, ask you dont do that accidentally. You do that deliberately. Right. He went out, you know, i dont know if he likes being famous, but he let himself get famous, and Woody Guthrie wouldnt. Pete seeger is much more like Woody Guthrie who continued on, lived to very old. 90 something. He was kind of a star but always deflecting it and getting everybody to sing, right . That was the point of pete seeger, were all in this together. And i suspect guthrie would have gone more that route. T speaking of that, im getting the high sign here. Were going to do joe hill. Can you give us a quick introduction . This is not a Woody Guthrie song, as such, but its important to this story to, and then were going to go right into bob dylans augustine. Can you introduce those two for us . Sure. Joe hill, i dreamed i saw joe hill last night was written in the mid 30s and was exactly this kind of idea, which isgh lets remember the heroes of the past to inspire us to go forward. Dylan came to new york and claimed hed never heard this song, which [laughter] maybe, maybe not. But then a few years later wrote what amounts to an answer song called i dreamed i saw st. Augustine instead of joe hill. And, you know, it speaks to exactly what weve been discussing here which is dylan saying, you know, i couldnt, i couldnt do this movement thing. I had to do something else. Hes kind of half explaining, half apologizing, i think. Lets do joe hill followed by st. Augustine. A mashup. Mashup. I dreamed i saw joe hill last night alive as you and me. Ah, but joe, youre ten years dead, i never died, said he. I never died, said he. The copper bosses killed you, joe, they shot you, joseph, highing. Takes more than guns to kill a man, says joe, i didnt die. Says joe, i didnt die. Then standing this as big as life and smiling with his eyes says joe, what they can never kill weapon on organize. Went on to organize. Went on to organize organize. From san diego up to maine and every mining mill where working folks defend their rights, its there youll find joe hill. Its there youll find joe hill. I dreamed i saw st. Augustine alive as you are me. Tearing through these quarters in the utmost misery. With a blanket underneath his arm and a coat of solid gold searching for the very souls who already have been sold. Arise, a arise, he cried so loud in a voice without restraint. Come out, ye gifted kings and queens, and hear my fair complaint. No martyr is among ye now whom you can call your own. So go on your way accordingly, but know youre not alone. I dreamed i saw st. Augustine a alive with fiery breath. And i dreamed i was amongst the ones that put him out to death. Oh, i awoke in anger, alone and terrified. I put my pingers against fingers against glass, and i i bowed my head and cried. Lets channel our inner pete seeger and sing the full verse of joe hill together. I dreamed i saw joe hill last night alive as you and me. Il says i, but, joe, youre ten years dead. I never died, said he. I never died, said he [applause] natalie king, daniel wolff. The book is grownup anger. Wooy hell be around to sign thisf book, and you should definitely buy it. A round of applause for them, please. They were great. Thank you. [applause] [inaudible conversations] books can be purchased oh, there we go. Thank you for attending todays event. Books can be purchased and signed outside the auditorium, so thank you very much for attending. Cspan, where history unfolds daily. 1979, cspan was created as a Public Service by americas Cable Television companies and is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. Welcome, everyone. Helling low. Hello. So im, its like, whos that up there with leigh . [laughter] my name is patty sellers. I just asked leigh how long weve known each other. Leigh just celebrated her tenth anniversary at fortune magazine