Welcome to our new Afternoon Keynote here. Im jim elliott editorial director of Publishers Weekly and with me as chris finding author of a new book how free speech save democracy just out the last few weeks from stairford. Press ive now chris for probably better than 30 years carly. Hes executive director of the National Coalition against censorship and before that. He had a long stint overseeing American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression. And so chris. I thought maybe we would begin there and talking about, you know, maybe some of you earlier background how you got interested in this whole free speech moving and how that will they keep the country free. Ive been doing this for over 40 years now. And i got involved in the early 80s i was looking for a job after i left graduate school. And i found an ads on ad in the New York Times when they used to have classified ads and it was for a coordinator for a First Amendment trade association. I had no idea what that was. But it sounded like me, you know, that sounded like a great opportunity. I i was very interested in in the issue at one point. I thought i was going to be a reporter. Um, but i grew up in the 60s and free speech, you know was a big again a big topic of conversation. As it was being repressed in the south during the Civil Rights Movement as it was. Being repressed again in the north during the antiwar movement. So im so i applied for that job and and i got it. Just as there was a major conservative uprising not on similar what were going through right now. You know the election of Ronald Reagan had really stirred the conservative roots. And suddenly there were challenges to books throughout the country. This was a period when judy blume was doing her first publishing and she became a major lightning rod for this because people were and never experience books addressed to kids about problems like sex in the schools, and they responded vociferously so there were there were hundreds of fat and with more than a thousand challenges in those years, which is how band books we got started as a response to that. So then i went from that Organization Media coalition to the booksellers foundation for Free Expression. Which you know was also engaged in in supporting booksellers who had been under attack as part of this conservative way. There was an effort. To create felony penalty is for the sale of obscene material. Catherine mckinnon was pushing an idea that retailers producers and retailers of material with sexual content should be held civilly liable. For those publications and that led to a big court case that struck down the law. And so as those things tailed off suddenly, we were facing 9 11 and threats to read her privacy. So yeah, ive been around ive been around a long time. That so youve chased a lot of controversies, which is one thing that i think. Now that people could benefit from knowing the history of how free speech in the first arriving. Has been you know, i think it could fairly say under assault or being challenged, you know, almost from the getgo you talk about the sick diction acts in the 1790s and then you know, i think world war one. I think we saw a whole outbreak different measures really. But with no other object then it is to curb free. Speech. So as i was i was doing this advocacy work it occurred to me and my i studied history in college and graduate school. That i really didnt know much about the history of free speech myself, so after the the patriot act fight pretty much over. Um, i wrote up my first book about free speech, which was called from the to the patriot act. Which covered the period of the 20th century which is the era in which . Free speech became protected really for the first time throughout the 19th century. There were no Court Decisions protecting free speech. Theoretically we had free speech because the First Amendment was in the constitution. But as a practical matter the attitude toward radicals like the abolitionists and feminists and suffragists anybody who was rocking about is you have free speech right up until it it me off and then youre gonna suffer the consequences and the abolitionists are very good example of that because they were attacked hundreds of times. Um for you know the abolition of slavery. And the great, you know leader Frederick Douglass. Was almost killed in a riot in indiana. When he attempted he attempted to speak. So it was a it was a right on paper, but not a right that was that was enforced. Until world war one which kind of brought this whole attack on free speech to a culmination. When you know, we started throwing people in jail for being against the war for speaking against the war for for saying anything that was even critical of Woodrow Wilson. The president like Woodrow Wilson is a blockhead got somebody arrested by the by feds and prosecuted there were more than 2,000 prosecutions more than a thousand convictions. A lot of people really suffered. The leader of the socialist Party Eugene Debs was sentenced to 10 years in jail. He was by that time already a threetime president candidate for president , but it didnt stop him from being put in the federal penitentiary. And it was really in reaction to that Civil Liberties meltdown. That people primarily lawyers in the beginning began to speak out about the importance of protecting free speech and aclu was founded in 1920 to lead that fight but then even then it was a long long fight through. You know in the following decades. Right and what you i think one of the major thesis and you know when we were talking last week, you were kind of joking that this is the first book youve written in that, you know, its pertinent to current events. So can talk a little bit how that has evolved and how people who are marginalized or have been oppressed . Theyre the biggest beneficiaries of free speech. So thats why no, its particularly important for them to stay on guard the people who suffered. In the 19th century and on you know, and for in to this day the people who suffer are the people who are pushing a new idea who are trying themselves politically. Who dont have you know who had who are the powerless and and Frederick Douglass said . You know speech is precious particularly for the oppressed. That is not something. Thats well understood by many today because we were really so successful in protecting free speech in the 50s and the 60s. Primarily as a result of the struggles of the Civil Rights Movement in the antiwar movement. That you know most of the abuses that occur during that period you know arent happening today, you know today today. You know after you know trump was elected. The womens march happen without incident, you know half a million women showed up in dc more women around the country. There were no. No laws to restrict them or to prevent them from speaking even though not that long ago the suffragists were thrown in prison for making the same kinds of claims. Um, know weve seen. Students, you know, weve seen Students Walk out of classes to protest gun violence and then of course we saw the george floyd protest which are the largest in American History and the reason that those came off, you know with more for the most part peacefully. Is that it is now widely recognized that this is this is speech that you know that is protected and that, you know must be allowed to be heard. So were very fortunate. We we are the beneficiaries of a great revolution and but its easy to kind of forget those gains. You know when theyre when youre fighting for other, you know other goals and which sometimes seem to be in conflict with those. Right, which is where i think that brings us up to today. I mean obviously published Book Publishing and book selling. You know been prominent a lot of these fights. I mean low reader back in the day. And fight to get that published now and up to the present day where you know, i think its fair to say the traditional. The pay over free speech if you was left first, right and while theres a fair amount of that still going on. I think theres a lot more debate especially on the left side of as we you know, ive talked about a little bit before a generation gap between what some of the younger people think and what some of us all star wars believed. Yeah there has there has been a been a shift kind of a thats not been helpful to an understanding of free speech. You know in the past it was primarily liberals and radicals who were pushing the message. Dissenters of one kind or another so when you hear conservatives complaining like a conservative member of Congress Like marginally Marjorie Taylor green, you know wearing a mask. You know that says censored, you know, you really the world seems upside down and and it doesnt help free speech much to be advocated by people like Marjorie Taylor green. Um, but you know, but the fact remains that well, so its been hard for a few years to really to make a convincing argument to many progressives and younger people about the importance of free speech. Theres also Citizens United which was settled, you know under a First Amendment the First Amendment rationale. Which seems to to empower the rich even more than they already are empowered. Um so its been its been hard to to get a hearing for free speech among those constituencies. But i think that whats going on now among in this Current Crisis over education. Should you know . Should help us. Show demonstrate, you know, once again that censorship is a real problem. For progressive values as as always has been you know whats being attacked . The books that are being attacked. The curriculums that are being attacked are are being attacked because of a fear that they are indoctrinating kids with. You know with radical ideas about race and sexuality and Sexual Identity and the people who are attacking them are people who are quite powerful. I mean we have seen. 15 states pass so called crt laws which are you know focused on arguments about the persistence about the nature of slavery the persistence of racial inequality. You know the most of the books that are being attacked are lgbt books that are in in schools for the first time first time kids. Lgbt kids are seeing books that address them and address their issues and make them feel included and and promote promote their selfesteem these are you know, these are critically important works that that are you know, there are very concerted effort to snuff out. So you know my hope is a free speech activist is that you know, this will get the attention of of many of those who have argued the First Amendment is. Somehow a problem right . Because thats thats going to that a little bit. I mean in terms of uniting the progresses. You know, we follow. Its her especially after january 6, you know even within publishing, you know, how can you publish a book by soandso who was advocating . No overthrowing the government and you know again in the industry well familiar with a shape employees walking out when they wanted to publish for the outlooks for something nothing to do with government, but you know, its accusations of being sexual misconduct. I mean how what kind of argument can you make for these people . I mean, i think your book is a great instructive about look this is going on for a long time. That was were lucky to be really are because weve you know in many cases never had such free speech protections, but you know, its really in danger and no there has to be room for all kinds of opinions. We have ncac has is a nonprofit nonpartisan organization. As i said and we have found ourselves. Defending the right to publish conservative books and conservative speakers to be heard at campuses and to be invited to speak. And we are concerned about. You know efforts to disrupt, you know disrupt that freedom because it boomerangs it justifies. Those on the other side who want to impose their own restrictions and they point they just turn around and point of finger. I mean jim you sent me a clipping today of a former employee for nearing publishing saying, you know that that liberals are being hypocrites in talking about a band books crisis. Um, you know, the you know we have to defend the right of free speech for all. I say that in full knowledge that that means that there is a lot of garbage a lot of misinformation a lot of hate. That gets surfaced on published on social media. Thats a big difference between now in the 80s there. We didnt have social media. And thats certainly has undermined. The idea of public debate and you know marketplace of ideas. But our our argument is civil libertarians always is that nobody says you have to like it in fact. On the contrary, you know the best response to hate speech is counter speech and it is protest and it is you know militancy is is fine as long as it doesnt involve actually trying to shut down a speaker as has happened too many times. So, how do you answer . Theyre the famous charge now of cancel culture. I mean, its i mean to me theres some degree of truth in it. I dont know what you think you mean that there is a cancel culture. Well if we talked about in your book you mentioned david rednick was going to give this speech. And was going to appear and liberals just blistered the whole idea so canceled the we cancel the interview. I mean. Theres the wrong to say that was canceled culture. Well, i guess maybe i resist the term because im not sure that. It actually exists as a culture certainly. There a lot there have been many efforts that cancellation and some have been successful and that is you know, that is a shame. Because its not. Its not a good response to somebody elses ideas to just try to silence them. You have to silence them with your own ideas. You have to be able to out, you know out argue them and and to take advantage of the confrontation is an opportunity to put your point of view across. Um, so yeah, i i there are many many examples and theyre in you know, i just mentioned a few in my book. And we need liberals to you know. Who know better to certainly in our generation at what was kind of about the new yorker . Incident was that you know a lot of older liberal supported the idea of canceling eight to really what was going to be a debate between remnick and and bannon rhemnick was gonna put ban into the test. And as a result of the cancellation of the event, he didnt have a chance and remini would probably have torn him apart. So its just the you know, its its a reflection of the deep polarization of our time which you know has affected many people. Other lives though that you think should be cross. I mean the old saw of you know. Cant yell fire and crowded movie theater. You know any reference before that all the misinformations out there . What do you do about it . Well the supreme court, you know has has drawn a number of lines, you know free speeches and completely free in this country. You cant insight directly insight to riot. You know it its a narrow standard but people can be held accountable and i think thats what partly what . You know what the january 6 committee is trying to figure out where exactly the line was crossed. Um, you cant liable people you cant you know there are there are limits. But and you know as far as misinformation goes on social media, you know, there is those platforms have First Amendment rights . To to exert content moderation that limits them and they have they have done that. You know the nature of the the nature of the beast of this, you know, social media is that its very hard to its very hard to regulate and theres always a danger to that. Theyll go too far and and remove too much material that algorithms are making all these decisions and that and that you know some legitimate conservative voices probably have been silence. And but and how does figure into . You know charges again from the more conservative side of you know the growth and Political Correctness and wellness and that people just are afraid to say things because look at jotted primarily, you know on social med. I i think thats true. I think you know that its a reflection more than anything of you know, the polarization of our of our politics and people are finding it hard to converse. Theyre finding it hard to find a Common Ground to to have any kind of a discussion and as a result and theyre afraid and you know, if you look at whats been happening in the schools. The kinds of attacks that have been made on teachers and administrators and you certainly cant blame people for being afraid afraid to speak up and that is you know, that is an exigent threat. To you know to freedom of speech freedom of speech in this country, right because i mean they are kind of getting hit from local left on the right. Thats a tough spot to be but its the only spot that we can be in a democracy. You know, i in the famous the famous descent that Oliver Wendell holmes wrote in 1919. You know, he said clicking a democracy. There are no arbiters of the truth. Nobody. Nobody has the final say on whats true. And whats not true. And while thats the case in other words while were a democracy, all we can do is argue about it and try to you know convince people to our side. Because nobodys going to solve these problems for us. We dont have we dont have kings. We dont have. You know, we dont have guidance from on high about what where truth lies. Truth has to be discovered, you know through the process of debate, you know and talk about debate and you know rational debate because again, especially when i think we were talking last week about the generation gap, especially on the i know on the liberal side of that again, you know some of the younger folks are have a different viewer what things to be but now were saying well not necessarily wrong. We can expect your opinion, but you know. There is definitely another side that we were hoping we would listen to. I have a great deal of sympathy for you know for kids today and and you know, theyre dealing with issues that we never had to deal with. And you know, and i just remember back to what i was like and you know in the 60s and i didnt trust adults either, you know, i really i thought they were full of and just as you know many kids today think that were you know, were full of it when we you know, we advocate for our position. But but ultimately, i think they will discover and i hope they i hope they see the Current Crisis as as a reason to rethink the importance of allowing others to speak so that we have the freedom to speak and i think with you who mentioned, you know free speech, you know, Something Like an apple. Everybody wants to take a bite out of it. And the more bite you take out of it, you know before you know it the whole free speech apple is gone and said something that people taking more bites out of right now. I also i also think we need to look abroad you know, i think and a number of commentators have pointed out this you know that weve valued democracy a whole lot more now that we see whats happening to the ukraine. And now that we see, you know, russia, and now that we see china um, you know attempting to you know to really silence their people. And to keep them dumb to what to whats going on. Um, you know that you know, thats an extreme that you know, i dont think we will ever approach. But you know, it shows the ultimate danger of of moving in path of greater restrictions. Like glad to hear you say you dont think we can approach that but you know, this might be an unfair question, but i kind of scale of like one to ten tending. Ultimate censorship. What do you think . We are, you know a lot of whats going on now is is very new. You know it really the the big crush the big surge in book banning is is months old. Um, and it could be a harbinger of worst to come. Um, but i think that whats happened in the past . Is that when weve been faced by this kind of censorship threat like we were in the 80s there has been a response, you know, people saw what was threatened and they took you know, they took measures. To protect free speech one of those really critical measures or the creation of policies for reviewing book challenges. Um, thats severely cut back on the number of books that being pulled and but it ultimately its people right its its librarians and teachers, you know, standing up and students and parents and Community Members of the Community Community standing up for free speech that ultimately turn back these kinds of you know these challenges and in a period like this, so numerically, i i would say we thought i still i think were a pretty safe seven on the the scale of Free Expression around the world. We have to continue to fight and thats the other thing that you know, i really hope young people get understand the whole history of free speech in this country is that you have to fight for free speech and once you once you take it for granted then there will be people who will take, you know will use that against you. Because i think it was fascinating, you know, since you know, this is a book selling and Book Publishing venue we talked about. In 1923 or so the aba, you know, its facing some challenges over what . What the cell what not to selling is reading theres some committees i think in boston, right . How the term band of boston came up with the zone and almost librarians are outside committee would say or these are the books you can sell or just play right is that i have that story, right . Yeah. Yeah. You remember it right. There was actually a boston booksellers committee which participated in censorship and and you know know made decisions for their customers. And books, you know that they didnt approve just disappeared. But there were you know those a few brave librarians and historian and and booksellers who spoke out the guy who spoke out at the Booksellers Convention actually had his remarks stricken from the record, but a couple years later after seeing, you know, what was happening in boston and you know, the aba, you know took the stance that it has held. About about the importance of allowing customers to make these decisions for themselves. And librarians became obviously leaders in the free speech fight too. So there are lots of good people on our side who are going to continue to fight and you know, its its a privilege to stand with them. So i think well leave it there and i really cant recommend the book enough partially for people in this industry out free speech safety democracy because as chris as mentioned several times, its shocked full of events and periods of time when free speech was under threat. Um, and you know, we some of us will look back i think well, how can they do such a thing . And so its not ridiculous, but 10 years from now who knows what people think about this period so, you know again and i actually urge people to read this. Its its not long chris so kudos for that 157 pages, right and its a quick read. Its a great read if youre interested in this topic at all. So once again jim elliott here from pw, im thinking chris feining for joining us today. And his book is as they say available. All bookstores and maybe somewhere even on internet. So well leave it at that. I thanks a lot chris. Thanks jim