Transcripts For CSPAN2 BOOK TV 20161029

Because its so dumb, so im going to ask it to you and see how you can answer it. Why do you think these people talked to you . Why do you think gabriel wrote you a thousand pages of letters . Thats a great question no, its a sucky question. [laughter] i hate it. My agent asked that a couple times. How are we getting duped here . Hes essentially in solitary confinement, and he will be there probably indefinitely. And hes been there since he was 19. And hes going to be in life hes going to be in prison for life. I came along, and he was used to seeing tv reporters and newspaper and magazine reporters who were swooping in sort of for the quick story, and he got to know the ways of that world pretty well. And i think that the more i stuck around and the more i sort of showed myself to not be interested in the quick hit, but something larger, the more comfortable he became with me. And it became more like a relationship than a sort of professional reporter subject thing. So that sort of the scope of the project helped. What did he want from it . I think he wanted a lot of things. I think on different days he wanted different things. I think on his best days he wanted to tell a cautionary story. After School Special . In a way, or yeah. Yeah. Like maybe my life can be used for something better. [inaudible] right. One of the things that was, you know, i think especially in the second half of the book this element, you know, you started to press on it harder was the sense that were used to seeing the social problems of mexico which is a large country immediately south of us, half of which we hate, were used to seeing those problems as something thats outside of us. Thats in a different country. Thats across the border. Thats their problem. And one of the things about the intimate city of the intimacy of the portrait of these kids in this book is you get the sense of them both being American Kids and being kids for whom, ultimately, the dynamics of a country like mexico were more powerful in terms of shaping their lives. They didnt apply to college, and they didnt dream long enough of being a football player, or maybe they were too short or whatever it was. In the end, it was a life in mexico that was going to catch them up and shape who they were going to become in their very short time as adults. And it made me think, you know, as a kid who grew up between cultures, its one of the stories where our current piety kind of [inaudible] because there are lots of kids who grew up half as kids from [inaudible] and half as American Kids and half as kids from mexico and half as American Kids or, in my case, half as a russian and half as an american kid. And the american piety is always, well, youre all americans the moment youre born here or the moment youre naturalized or your mom or dad can becomes a citizen. Except thats not what goes on inside our a heads. We actually live an inbetween life. And then there are moments where almost the narrative of one culture becomes more compelling, whether thats, you know, jihaddism in the case of the person who set off the bomb, you know, a few blocks from here the other night or whether its the cartel warfare which you kind of trace back culturally to the aztecs in mexico. Its a story. And we really live our lives in a funny way as characters in stories. And thats the thing that our culture, i think, gets wrong. Its not only about Economic Opportunity or whether someone calls you a bad name somewhere, its what character in what comic book do you want to be especially if youre 15 or 16. Which which superhero do you want to be. Can you be a superhero at all. And the narrative of im a soldier for allah or im making bank with the russian mob or, you know, im a soldier for the zetas, and i can take life whenever i want just like my aztec brothers, i mean, it sounds insane except thats actually how we live. These are we live according to the stories that we tell ourselves, and those stories for kids who are growing up between cultures can just as easily come from outside, quoteunquote, as they can come from inside. And that was kind of a thought i had yeah. While reading the second part of the book especially, and be i was curious what you thought about about that. Well, laredo was such a marginalized city. Its the least ethnicicallydiverse city in america. 98 hispanic. One of the poorest cities in america. And the Education System down there is a disaster. So for people like gabriel and bart, the cartel provides this very powerful illusion of belonging and purpose. And i think that was a very big part of what sucked them in. And what sucks so many kids in. I mean, theyre not unusual for kids along the border. There are so many kids down there that want to be that. Its amazing. And theres this very aggressive branding of the cartel world that goes on in music and things like that. That sort of adds to the pull of it. Talk a bit about the music, because its a cool im a music head, and, you know, ive heard some of it. You know, its a funny form of, like, hiphop crossed with, like, mexican folk that tells the tales of the, you know, great gangsters of yore, and you can see why that music makes a world come alive with your pen. Yeah. So a lot of these songs are actually commissioned by cartel bosses. Theyll approach someone whos become famous as a singer in mexico and pay them a couple hundred thousand dollars to write a song about them and then come to a cartel party. Theres a scene in the book that says a Holiday Party where they sing the song and sort of lionize the person, the boss. So one of the aspirations in they mexico and laredo, on the border, is to have a narcocorrido written about you. Something to look forward to. Yeah, yeah. That means youve really made it. And interestingly, you know, from a criminal perspective, i guess the bands are also a way to launder money. And there thereby you know cf the traffic and narcotic and other things, and awesome thing for us to do. And the second sets is why is anyone suggesting that theres any problem south of border at all, you know, clearly even implication there are armed criminal gangs in mexico is. And you know, after reading this book i think it would be pretty hard for anyone who likes to mouth either set to go on doing that clear conscience. Yeah, well with the wallet even if it could exist it would be equal. 2,000 mile wall built and paid for by mexico. With the help of the people in lour lordedo so if you think it would achieve it wouldnt achieve. Because the history has shown when you sort of, you know, add reare sources to the interdiction efforts and you know, doubling Law Enforcement and lour ray for instance you get nor smuggling thats because you up the risk of ling therefore up the l vast products that are being smuggled and so smuggling becomes like more attractive. Can you explain that very basic point a little more detailed yeah, so underworld economy is economy like anything else with supply and demand and risk and investment, and ate priesk priesk a lot of price is risk. So as that risk goes up, the price of smuggling goes up and margins go u up. So more money winds up in the hands of the bad guys. Yeah, it becomes more alluring for people. Gets richer and richer. And you know that across the border we have a society of lawabiding people who are going to church, who are very eager always to contribute to the welfare of the United States of america. Thats also not entirely true if you look at the kind of horrific large scale violence of criminal cartel. Thats not something we really want in america if we had a choice. We want the violence in america. We dont want [inaudible] , no, that would be bad. Yeah, that would be bad. Right around the corner. [laughter] you know, now just the tired horse. Where does all of this mung come from . All of this profit. Where is the product that produces so much money and for large scale . We with really like cocaine. Yeah. And we really like heroin. We do, and that is enormous demand for that and as long as that demand exists this world that im writing about in the book will cease to exist. Because it begins with us. Where use is all equal drugs right now . Of your oneyearold son i think the present trend in legalization is probably wise. I dont, i dont know what the point would be of legalizing Something Like heroin which is really the devil. Maybe cocaine you could argue. Its not clear whether you get rid of the criminal element that way or not. Theres other product. Out there, but the powder is the big one. Theres an incredible demand for that here, and its small, compact, easy to smuggle and extremely profitable. So you know there is something is right in that like creepy escobar argument like well you know until the society this is our way of getting something back. This is means of Cash Transfer in the other direction. This is what makes the money go south finally found something we can you know small acts. Absolutely. Absolutely. It all starts, it all starts with us. But i dont know could you see like cocaine being sold in your local pharmacy . It used to be. It used to be. Less than a century ago. Still was. But its a problem. Its a problem but, i mean, thats part made by laroche. And sometimes i think about it as of late between the pharmaceutical drug industry and its product engineered for, you know, social safety and conformity and selfie product, and you know [inaudible] like an arms race. No, i think they come up with such good legal that no one wants to do them anymore. [laughter] you dont have to deal i dont know. I dont know. I think this is the right mode. All right. Hey. So when i read about cartels plus journal u. S. Es it is not usually a combination that ends well. I wondered if you were nervous during this reporting or because people that youre reporting on were already in jail that felt like a safer endeavor . Because my wife is here it was perfectly same all along and there was never any reason at all to be scare ised by anything that any conversation we had about that that we had any youre making your child cry. [laughter] silas wasnt born, but i did go to bare cruise on a trip most of my search in lordedo companied to the cruise which is a city on the gulf coast. And its a huge drug port. Its a port its the site of all crime, and the city is a mess, and i spent two days there only speaking to reporters. They all gather at this local cafe which is a bizarre, bizarre scene essentially no reporting in bare cruise if you are a report you go to a cafe in the morning and all of the business and politicians are there and they tell you what youre going to print that day and you do it. You take a picture of them smiles and dadada. So being a journalist in mexico is extremely dangerous. And many are on the payroll i dont to say most. But many especially in veracruz and monterey mostly journalists are on the tape somehow. Even if it is not from a drug cartel maybe a politician who wants you to carry and write whatever he says so something that in america we cant imagine. Right. Never whats here. [laughter] major First Amendment and that is serving its people. But but i think were just drk i feel really, really lucky as a journalist to live in a country where you know, we can write about this u stuff. And answer your question yeah, it was a lot more comforting that the people in the book i was writing about, the people in the criminal side were either no longer with us or in prison forever, so this was a historical story, i wasnt writing anything that was going to affect real time business for everybody. But anyone direct a book like this, you have the example of roberto in the back of your head. County journalist wrote a book called devorea in 2011 about organized crime in his hometown of naples, and he is going to be essentially living with Law Enforcement for the rest of his life because [inaudible] but hes from the place he was writing about, and he wases writing about people who were still out there and in power and active. And yeah. Thats scary. Yeah. Very scary. Thank you. Can you hear me . Yeah. The context of my question comes from my son eight years running mgo and africa, and kenya and spent time in refugee camp where kids are recruited every day to be child soldier because thats the only similarly way to make a living, way to save your life. You know way to have aspirations. But when you spoke about policy, to me finding other ways which i look at the metaphor in africa for child soldiers, the only way to get kids away from doing that is to find other ways to gets federation to make a living or have a future. So when you spoke about policy you sort of spoke about it like that wasnt the answer. So im curious i think i agree with you. We probably agree. Curious what you think the answer im a person no i was looking at you but now im looking at you saying to me its the only answer and im curious. But talking member or drug policy. What a lot of people talk about. How do we fix this problem and make cartels disappear . Often the answer is you know legalization, or build a wall. And so that, thats what i was referring to, but i think policies that help bring marginalized communities into mainstream provide opportunity. Help families pay together as much [inaudible] no i absolutely think thats the place to start opportunity. I think that that gets lost because theres convenience to talk about a drug policy issue. Or a wall. And we kind of box these huge issues into something neat like that when its not neat at all. You mention the bulkmora what parallels between that world and the world you write about in wolf boys . Well organized crime is underworld thats sort of obvious his book is different than my book tblus a section in many this book that deals with first soldiers. And is amazing scene he goes ina pizzeria in naples where these 16yearold hitman and such hang out after their shifts. With their jacket and they take a lot at m about ma, up at night and when they come down off the exit and then mma you know. Yongts speak from experience but they help me out. But apparently when youre coming down you get very hungry. So these boys are like theyre boys so theyre naturally very hungry. And they just probably spent their night doing horrific things and taking ecstasy and comes to pizzeria getting slices and soda, as fast as they can drink it making me hungry. But that was that was the part of his book that was most resonant for the time sake that i was doing. So your book has already been banned i heard. Yeah. It was banned by the we didnt discuss that. It was banned by the i heard it from you. By the president system actually before this published. For the foam whom its about are unable to at least for the time being to read it. Yeah. The state system bans a lot of books and can site any reason they want. They have six official grounds for banning, and the ground for banning wolf boys it that is contains information about the criminal scheme and dedetection and they krieted a sentence on 124 amazing they got that far into the book but i talk about one of the smugglers and how outfitted his vehicle noshed to make that optimal for smuggling. Second, this is smuggling world knows, but that is what they what really its hallow so maybe like the criminal. But yeah. And they do offer theres appeal. So well see, see what happens had. But banned book week is next. So there you have it. Mention in your book they brought an a ball. The good stuff is. But yeah in the last chapter of the book where i go and finally sort of bring myself in and talk about the reporting process and i guess not really for the story itself. But there was a night when i was hanging out with israel brother and luis and i kind of said look i want to do whatever you would do on a saturday night. So [laughter] we went to the ball in lorado and we bought the shirt. These kind of gnar narco shirts that felt pretty harmless. And then we did go to this club, and on the way to the club like okay were going to stop by, with an eight ball of cocaine three grails of cocaine and i said okay. So we did that and went back to the hotel, and actually it was one of the best combination with cocaine and couple of with a great conversation about lorado and i felt maybes it was spofort jewish build but i publish this book without putting that in. Because it happened. It happened and it was part of the process. [laughter] so its in there. And its awesome that its in there. For anyone watching in washington this is what happens when i wrote that piece about the National Security counsel the same thing. Any other questions is . So you talked to both sides, the good, the bad, the evil. The good are here tonight. What was it like going back and forth between weaving story trying to find the truth somewhere . It was one of the things and you know today you kind of rely on the judgment as far as the relational aspect i get a lot of slack from the criminals saying things about relationships with detective garcia. [laughter] nothing wrong with that either. To provide certain services. Criminal knew the reality of the project, and it was striking to me and funny there isnt more animosity between criminal and cops. Its almost like it accepted both sides, and i learned a lot more about that actually than i learned at Gabriel High School and the principal and we have long conversation and he told me like oversee two population of people hoar. E see people who go who change them, and thats it. And this is a high school principal, i mean, one of the more optimistic people in [laughter] but i think nubble [inaudible] funny thing about cops is that they want to tell you how much the criminals love them. They always want to tell you i treated that man well and he bought me beer eight years later. Everyone has that story