Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On The Upstairs Wife 20150215

Denmark. There is going to be an audio taping tonight, and if we get to that point, come to our audience microphone over here that way cspan and politics prose will get your questions recorded as well as our authors answers to them. And lastly if you could do us a huge favor fold up your chairs lee them against leave them against something solid, itll help us get to the book signing. Welcome to politics prose. My name is abby i run our instore events, and this evening we are so pleased to have with us Rafia Zakaria to discuss her new book the upstairs wife. Its her experience with the country she grew up in and she begins at Pivotal Moment in 2007 when [inaudible] one of her uncles had decided to take a second wife and the book really becomes this unique look at culture and politics and shes really showing a lot about the country through her own story. So her works has appeared youve probably seen it in aljazeera america, other publications, and shes also a human rights activist and on the board of Amnesty International usa. So tonight shes joined in conversation by [inaudible] whos a producer and reporter for nprs all things considered, and [inaudible] so please join me in welcoming both of them to politics prose. [applause] i think you need to hold that. Yeah, you do. Oh, she does . Sorry. Let me get my mic as well. Sorry. This is rafias first book talk, so this is a great privilege to have her in d. C. For the first discussion shes doing of the book. So thank you for this amazing book. I wanted to start with rafia as a columnist in pakistan every week she writes for the leading english newspaper there, and her work looks at human rights, womens rights, all kinds of discrimination issues. And im curious when youve written something as personal as this book is, what was the origin of sort of deciding to take the kind of writing you do every week and Say Something in the way that youve done here . Okay. Well, first of all, thank you everybody, for being here. Im sure you hear authors say this all the time writing is a lonely job. And so theres really Nothing Better than sitting in front of people who read your work and who are interested in it. But its rare that, you know i write mostly for a pakistani audience. Im a columnist for dawn which is the largest newspaper and a lot of the genesis of this book was in my interactions with women in pakistan who write to me every week sometimes in response to the columns. Its, you know, difficult in the United States to get people interest in a book interested in a book on pakistan. I was talking earlier to my p friend, and he was saying well you know, if you have a title that says the nukes are safe or, you know, more terrorists than anyone else, then you can sell a book on pakistan. But a book about pakistani women, particularly about karachi which is the city im from and seen through the eyes of women is a harder sell. So its so encouraging to see everybody here. You know, i envision this book as a way to show people what it feels like to be pakistani more than anything else. So the themes in this book are an effort to promote the emotional landscape of pakistan. Its i think, a dimension of the country that is lost in the narrative that is dominated by Security Issues especially here in d. C. , by terror by violence. Theres very little sort of exploration off the internet life that goes on behind closed doors. But that forms really the narrative of the country and the city. I mean, and you said that, you know, you had initially thought about doing something that would bring you to the emotional landscape maybe through fiction. Theres a lot of pakistani fiction writers and they have been able to do a lot of stories that are about families and individuals and their struggles. But ultimately, you chose to not only write a more literary piece, but also something thats deeply personal where you take your own familys a story and put it on the page. Thats all the women in your family from your grandmother to your mother to your aunt and to yourself. That decision, too was a difficult one to put Something Like a private life in pakistan which is very private in the public in the way that you have. Um, yes. It is difficult, and it continues to be a struggle. And i think that way i looked at it was that i had to be true to my commitment as a writer in that i wanted to present as honest as possible a story. That was true to my heart and that captured the experiences of people i love. But, you know sometimes that comes up against the expectations people have of you as well as the relationships you have with people. So its a balancing act. But i guess my strongest motivating factor was that i strongly believe that a lot of suffering results from silence and that because some of these private boundaries are not traversed, already a lot of women who might on some dimension go through similar situations that feel alienated or alone or that feel that their struggle is a singular one. And to have the story told, hopefully, is way for other women to share their stories and to realize that, you know, there are sort of universal strands of Human Emotion that unite us whether were pakistani or american. I mean the central theme of the book is being in love with someone who doesnt really love you the psalm way you love the same way you love him. And, you know thats something i think that everybody goes through. Or has gone through or will go through at some point. You talk a little bit about the central character in the book, which is your aunt who is also the title of the book, the upstairs wife, yes. What you mean by that and tell us a little bit about them if you want to read a little bit about your observation of what happened to her. Well, the central character is my aunt and only, the story revolves around her husband taking a second wife and her coming first coming home to what was her fathers house, to our house and what that was like to kind of, you know, as a child get snippets of what was going on but not really knowing what the matter was or why everyone was so upset or why she was so upset. So thats the central character. And i think through that i tried to explore this whole idea of public and private and how people, you know how theres a connection between the violence outside in pakistan and the violence in intimate relationships and how they can also tear you that can also tear you apart. So the portion that im reading right now is sort of the view from the outside. You know, in this neighborhood where everyone knows everyone else and they know that this man, my uncle, has taken a second wife and hes divided his home into multiple levels where your aunt lives on one level, and his new wife lives on the second. Absolutely. Absolutely. Im going to try to do this balancing act. Ill hold your mic for you. All right, thank you. With the arrival of second wife, the eyes of neighbors focus with rejuvenated fervor or my aunts newlyenlarged house. In the evening the women watch the lights turning on upstairs or downstairs the men watch the comings and goings of my uncle whether he ascended or descended the stairs between his two women. Propounding at length about his dutiful virility. The oddity of the household the only one on the lane where two women shared one man provided a safe conversation topic at their own dinner tables. A reprieve from nagging concerns about jobs and money and traffic and schools. Is he upstairs or downstairs tonight always managed to draw a laugh from the most harried of housewives, the most overworked of husbands. Thus, the newrycreated neighborhood of stragglers from bombay reunited on one short lane of houses in karachi had found a juicy drama that was reliable fodder for casual gossip. And i mean, whats interesting is that you take the those kinds of observations of what was happening in your familys life and interlace that throughout the book with the history of pakistan so the reader is getting both this kind of, you know sad and juicy i suppose as you described it in your words you know, the story of your family alongside the narrative of pakistans political leaders and the one woman who you write a lot about in the women which is Benazir Bhutto who i think Many Americans know as one of the only leading sort of female politicians in the world and of her time. She was a largerthanlife figure, and she also sort of loom over your book as the freest woman you know, you describe. Can you juxtapose your familys experience and the women in your life with Benazir Bhutto, a daughter of karachi known around the world . Yeah. I mean, you know, as a pakistani woman especially when living in america, that is probably one of the most frequent questions that im asked, is that oh, you know Benazir Bhutto was the prime minister. So, you know, in many ways pakistan that is a public face for many, a particular face of pakistani women. But i wanted to present her as how i saw her as a kid when she was getting married herself and what that was like, how i interpreted that as a girl growing up in catchy. Karachi. So, you know, more than anything here youve got an environment, my environment where choices are very circumscribed. I was definitely being raised to be married and have children, and, you know, i wanted very much for her not to do that cuz i wanted at least one example of a woman who was not doing what every other woman i knew was doing and was sort of, you know, their lives centered around marriage and childbirth. And so i remember watching benazirs wedding on tv and being sort of sad because its like okay, heres the freest and it is true, this is the freest woman i know and she also has to marry this man and, you know, to the child rafia, he wasnt a particularly good looking man. [laughter] i mean no political subtext whatsoever. But as a kid. And youre thinking, why is she doing this . Because i wanted at least one way to say, you know not everybody has to do this. Not everybody has to make these compromises and fit into these very constricted roles. And thats kind of the shadow because, i mean, it is through the lives of other women and the marriages that you see that you are, you know, interpret what your high is going to be like and your life is going to be like and the choices that youre going to make. So thats why shes a significant influence in the book. And also because this book, you know, very much you asked earlier about the origins. As a pakistani woman, you cannot help but look at whats happening and be sad and be, you know despondent about the way things are and be with upset about the fact that youre not seeing a reflection or that women are being erased from pakistan whether its the public spaces or the history or any of important dimensions of life. So i just got to this point where i felt that this was the only way to reclaim pakistan, is to present the story of pakistan through the eyes of women and that that in itself was, at least for me, the ultimate subversive thing that i could do is, you know, here i have story after story of women who i love who try to claim the country for themselves. And that includes Benazir Bhutto. And they were not able to do so. And so i wanted to tell story of the country in the struggles of those women because that, you know, i mean, i guess they say history is defined or written by the victors. Well, im writing the history first and hoping therell be victors next, you know . [laughter] and that women will discover come that women will overcome. Because they will see in a narrative like in this just how powerful and resilient they have been and that they can be and that, you know, they continue to push the system and continue to push the boundaries of what are often very constricted choices. When you said that a lot of the ideas in the book came out of your emails that you have with women readers in pakistan who write many to you every week from your column that has to do with some of the ways that you present the political history of pakistan some of the personal anecdotes that you share. Can you talk about how the kind of emails with your readers who are women is sort of strewn into this book and is part of this book . Definitely. I mean before i even say that i will say its in my acknowledgments too. But, you know pakistan and dawn, the newspaper that i write for is at the front lines of a society that is transforming and that is extremely violent. And i am just tremendously grateful for my editors who week after week really allow me to push the boundaries and write articles about women, about issues like polygamy, about issues like laws against adultery and all the other hinges that activists all the other things that activists are working on. But, you know more centrally than that, yes, im touched by the fact that, you know, pakistani women are out there. I mean they i get letters from university students, from women who work and women who are even within their own families fighting so that their daughters can work and have choices. Doctors in hospitals. And i wanted to sort of reflect that plurality in a book. You know, because as they say you know, i didnt want to present one story. I wanted you to be able to see as many stories as possible so that you understand that theres a mixture of, you know, of pushing and pulling. There are women, as youll see in the book, who come out on the streets, College Students who fight. And then there are women who retreat. And all of that is a part of pakistan. More essentially though, i think at this point in pakistans history issues like polygamy are very, very alive mostly because polygamy within the pakistani context is being presented as solution to destitute women. And the more authentic islamic way to live and arrange a Marital Relationship and i think that in those discussions of polygamy, you know theres a lot of discussions like what the quran says thats not allowed discussions like that. But theres no discussion of like the emotional ruin that arrangements like that can cause to women. So exploring marriages and exploring those intimate relationships was a way to sort of begin that conversation. And, you know, within the american context i think its also important because, you know, in a very different way the u. S. Is also engaged in looking at questions of what are intimate relationships, whats marriage, what are the boundaries of what we want as a society in different ways. And i think thats a way to sort of relate people who might not have any background in pakistan to sort of understand that our central impulse of wanting to be with someone or wanting to be the only person in someones life is universal a, you know . I mean, its the same whether its for my aunt or my friends here or myself or for many of you. I wanted to ask you, actually about what you just said which is that you wanted it to be more universal by looking at these questions of love, ultimately. You are on board of directors at amnesty usa and Amnesty International, and its very evident that these questions are so value to what you do in your so central to what you do in your oh work. But i also think you put together a book that is very literary and has quite a personal touch to it. One of things i was going to ask you to read a section in which rafia describes the man who founded pakistan, and hes credited as the sort of, you know, as the central figure in its history. But you actually decide to tell his story through the story of the wife who died before he came to what became fanning in 1947 became pakistan in 1947, and i wonder if you could read how he was also someone who had to lose love and marriage in his life to be a politician. Okay. Definitely. Sure. Yes. And to set this up a little bit more, you know another sort of theme in this book is migration. And this whole idea that we can never really go back to what we leave. And, i mean i think, obviously this is about migration in place, but i think its true, i think, for all our lives where, you know, you can never go back to being a kid, you can never go back to a time that existed before. And i think that that sort of is woven through this book in that im constantly, i was constantly growing up seeing people who longed for another place and were trying to rebuild it in this new country that was supposed to be home but that to them didnt feel like home m home. And then the reason i tell this is the founder of pakistan his story to the woman who he, in a way, left behind, is because of that, you know . Its because he was not just the founder, but he had a personal life and that in some ways the creation of pakistan involved a great personal loss for him. So [inaudible] died on february 20 1929. She was buried in one of bombays muslim cemeteries. It was here that mohamed visited her in august 1947 in the days before he left for karachi. The last days he would ever spend in bombay. Here the grave of the woman who he had lost for the sake of the country he had to create, mohamed was said to have wept. One year later he too would lie dying far away in newborn pakistan. In september 1948 almost 20 years after the death of his wife, he too would be gone. Mohamed had gained a country but lost his love. He was buried in the center of karachi, and over his grave a pristine white mausoleum of marble was built. Its unblemished dome could be seen far away. In death he belonged to pakistan. The children of pakistan learned a lot about him about his education, his political acumen, his strategic prowess, but we never learned about his nonmuslim wife, about the woman he had loved. Its beautiful, thank you. Thank you. For reading that. And im curious too, with you know, the subtitle of book is an intimate history of pakistan, but weve had many books about the nukes and the political history and all of that. What you meant by wanting this to also have a historical record of this country that was founded 60 years ago the idea you felt knowing the intimate history was key to understanding the country. Yeah. I mean, you know before an american audience and ive taught, you know in american colleges, and i generally, you know, and i write for an american audience you kind of as a pakistani i imagine most imi immigrants feel this way want everyone to know the larger context of what youre talking about, you know . Instead of having the isolated nuggets of, you know pakistan is drone attacks pack san is alqaeda pakistan is taliban, to have a tacit feel for what the society is like. So i wanted to weave together both, you know, stories like we didnt pakistan today didnt just become pakistan today. And i wanted people to see that in sort of a cinematic scape of just human, human beings, of ordinary pakistanis. I mean, you know the other challenge often for me as a pakistani writer is that, you know, here im telling you this story of a very ordinary middle class family. Thats not a narrative. In general, not was people from pakistan, but in general people from my sort of background dont become writers. We become computer programmers well, i guess i did become a lawyer, but im obviously not doing that when im writing, and we dont get to tell the stories of just what ordinary life is like and how thats woven together. Sometimes events affect lives. Other times there are events that should affect lives, but they dont. You know, in this story revolves around polygamy and, you know how laws on marriage affect women. But the fact is a lot of women in pakistan have no idea what these laws are and how they affect them. So in that sense its posing a question. I mean shouldnt, shouldnt there have been more shouldnt they have been more interested . Shouldnt the women in my family have known, you know what the laws were or and then, i mean, you know, thats sort of how ordinary peoplely their live live their lives. How many of us actually Pay Attention to things that are going to abridge our rights on a daily basis . Were consumed more by the proximate what happens to our husbands, wives and childrens, and thats, you know, its very similar in pakistan. And so in that sense the book is also a question about where womens rights are, where they should be, how and why women do and dont organize. The two sort of binaries that you see between my aunt and the other wife are important questions because, you know my aunt was a housewife. She was raised to have children and to raise children. She the other woman was a career woman. She met my uncle at work. Those are are choices that women face about, you know the good or the bad woman and how thats constructed in societies and how you have more or less freedom based upon those choices and how theyre going to affect you. And finally i think the crucial thing was that i saw in many ways women being the instruments of cruelty and subjugation to other women. Thats something thats difficult to talk about in any society. But i think that one of the most insidious ways that, you know women perhaps contribute t to each others oppression is by not being mindful, is by themselves sort of buying into a male mindset where the other woman is the enemy and not the man who is, you know, at the center of this arrangement. Thats a question i think, for the people who read to decide you know . Where the blame lies and whether a different perspective even in those limited choices can give you a different, you know, a different read on the situation or a different set of choices for yourself. Thank you. Im sure many of you have questions for rafia and about the book and also about how its written, and i think this is a great time to perhaps open up if floor to those who wanted to ask her about the book. If you could just make sure to come to our microphone here so everyone can record it. Thanks. This is a question that my wife asks me many times. [laughter] and she says so there is this woman loves a son. The son loves a woman, thats his mother. She takes care of him. But when he grows to become an adult, he looks at his mother like [inaudible] in society. And hes willing then to treat his wifetobe the same way. How can a man coming from the belly of a woman whom he loves. Thats his mother im sure they love the pakistan men love their mothers. How can he then see his mother as a person inferior . And then when he marries but even to his sisters, he marries, he doesnt treat his wife the way finish as an equal to himself. How can that happen . Thats beyond my come pre comprehension and my wifes comprehension. Could you help . [laughter] wow. Okay. I wish i had an answer to this question, you know on how to do that. I think that, i mean, my best guess would be and perhaps i guess i know in this not from being a son, but from being a daughter is that children are people and want to identify with whoever is powerful. So, you know, when they see their mothers not having power, they identify with whoever, you know, with the father who has power. Because everybody, you know sees that that is, i think perhaps as much of a natural instinct as the love is to be you know, the person thats calling the shots and thats deciding what happens. In this book at least i mean you know you get quite a bit of and im sure that a lot of my perspective is determined by the fact that im a twin and i had a twin brother. And so everything that i saw, i saw double in that i could see how it would be different if i was a boy. And that obviously influenced how i saw my aunts life, how i saw the world around me. And i think that that, you know i think that that underscores how we determine our relationships. It makes no sense, yes. Misogyny makes no sense at all. But it exists. Hi. Im looking forward to reading book. So its clear that Benazir Bhutto was an inspirational figure for you growing up. Im wondering if today you see any either political figures or Civil Society groups that are advancing the place of women in Pakistani Society . Its, i mean, i think that the battles in pakistan are being fought on a very individual basis. So, you know, it is the women, for example, if you go to karachi who use public transport. And they might be [inaudible] but theyre there. Theyre there in the buses, and they wont give up their seats. And theyre going to work. Its in the students who fight against, you know, in pakistan theres a big issue about limiting the quota for girls in medical school, for example. Its the girls who are fighting against that. The pakistani women who are in universities all time, every year year after year outdo the boys. You know, in terms of their grades. So there is definitely a lot of promise and a lot of hope because we have a young pakistan. Our pakistan is 60 under 20, and is half of that is women. And so those that pushes them. And in a lot of ways you see conflict because there is transformation, because women are out there, you know . Theyre, they have to learn. You know, theyre out in the malls, theyre in the shops selling things, theyre in the offices, theyre, you know theyre at the airport. Even now if you go the officers there are women. So theyre there and theyre pushing. Its perhaps conflictridden because war in pakistan is over public space. You know womens visibility is a huge political issue. And, you know, in the book reason why i emphasized the insideoutside dynamic is because women are coming outside. And thats what inspires in many ways the backlash against them to push them back in, to push them into a different life. But, yeah, i mean, i would say, i mean, you know the fact that my editors are running the newspapers that were writing things about whats happening were bringing it out into the forefront, that, you know, theyre not willing to back down. And politically though, you know, theres a lot of conflict and they dont have representation. But that doesnt mean that individually theyre giving up their drives for education and their drives for visibility. Thank you very much for talking about women and their progress in pakistan. I wanted to share a Little Something in answer to the question that that gentleman posed about how the son treated his mother and wife with, as an inferior. Because pakistan is not the only country that has polygamy. Uhhuh. In indiana chebt times in ancient times china also had that, and my own great grandfather had, you know, 18 concubines. But his wife did not get treated with less respect. And i think thats the difference. Because he gave her the power of the pursestring, you know . He had two houses just like your uncle. He had a house for the con cue wines concubines, he had a house for his primary wife. And in that house she had the money. She decides how to spend that money. And believe me, because he respected her the children the sons respected her. And other people. Or the men respected her. And i hope for the sake of pakistan that with the women working and becoming financially independent, that someday this will also happen, that the women will be better respected. Yes. I actually would say and thats some of, that is one of the issues that i try to express in the book is that theres a difference between respect and love. Im not sure that is she lost so much respect as she felt unloved. And for me, that is perhaps the most pernicious thing about about polygamy or the fact that she couldnt leave and he could have his, wife that he married to please his family and the wife he marries for love, but she could only have him. But, you know, thats, thats kind of a difficult question with right . I mean does someone have the right to be loved and is that same thing as gratitude or duty or respect . But thank you for your comment. Um, i just wanted to, first, say that writing this book is incredibly brave on your part. For someone of a pakistani background who knows what its like to, to even to talk about certain stories within the family can be youre not allowed to say certain things. So, i mean im very impressed. Im very amazed that you even had the ability to write. That is fantastic. But my, my question now that my phone is turned off and i said that what challenges do you continue to encounter as a result of writing this book . Well, this is the first event. [laughter] im sure a lot of my family are watching this and is im not sure and im not sure. But, you know i mean i agree. The two things that give me courage, the first is that i love all the women in my family very, very dearly. And its been difficult for me to see them believe that their lives didnt mean anything. And so for me writing this book was a way to sort of deal with with or, you know give, pay my homage to them and say that your lives have meant something. I couldnt write this book if they hadnt gone through what they did. And done it with sort of grace that they did. And so i think thats sort of what i believe. But, i mean youre absolutely right. In a family, you know, you preserve harmony by not taking a position. And this is [laughter] ive taken a position on everything. [laughter] and everyone. So i dont know. When i was writing it i told myself no ones going to read this. [laughter] so that was the only way for me to get through it day by day. So but now its a book and you can buy it and read it, and youll know everything about our family. And so, but hopefully that it is definitely it comes from the desire that people will realize that all families have these issues and that we cannot as a culture, a world really become more empathetic, you know unless we try to stand in someone elses shoes. And so thats really what the goal was with this is to try to get even, you know an american audience to stand in a pakistani persons shoes and see how the world looks to them. Thank you. Hi. Hi. So my question is twofold. Part of it is as a pakistaniamerican i think we grew up hearing things about often quoted how women being [inaudible] i was at a meeting recently and the former ambassador said something along those lines, women are going to kind of bring pakistan back into this golden era or whatever you want to call it. And so my question is i guess, in what ways do you see women sort of reclaiming that, fulfilling that sort of notion that you often hear men or other people sort of mentioning . And the second part of the question is the book deals with polygamy and i guess how does what is how is it seen in pakistan these days . The notion of polygamy or taking more than one wife . Is it divisive is there something going on there . Its very devisive, and its divisive and its an issue that has suddenly gained a lot of attention. I get more letters if i write an article about polygamy i get more letters generally than any other, you know, any other topic. And thats because you like i said, youve got a transforming society. Suddenly women are out there and theyre earning and theres a lot of, you know, theres a lot of confusion about what the new pakistan will look like, you know . A pakistan where a largely urban pakistan b, you know 20 years ago pakistan used to be a rural country. Now in 2030 its estimated to become an urban country. Karachi, the city that this book certains around is the large muslim city in the world. Its 18 19 million people. And, of course, living in a city that size requires women to earn and be out there. And so thats sort of a conundrum that the societys dealing with. Ask one of the ways in which sort of especially the more conservative elements who want to preserve an old system where women were still within the house is to say that, you know the way we have no destitute women its funny. Like in one sense polygamys supported by people who are very very traditional and want to keep an old system, and on another sense its supported by people who are almost like profeminist in their thinking, right . Its my choice, and if im deciding to do this, then who has the right to tell me . And so those debates are going on nearly every soap in pakistan now features the polygamy issue. But then again, you know thats the center. Are you going are women constantly going to look at their role in society as conducted through men . Because thats essentially, what polygyny in polygamy in the books context is. How much you can control your husbands affections means how much you have, you know, respect and control over money and freedom to do this or that. And so that is being perpetuated. Instead of saying theyre saying, okay the islamic way to have no destitute women is for every man to marry four women. And you are a devout woman, you should not have an objection to your husband taking another wife because you need to be that selfless. And those sorts of things again, like i said the rule, the whole point of describing this life of one week and another week that she had to live is to reveal the absurdity of certain rules when theyre translated to peoples lives. I mean, you know you cannot divide your affection equally. S it is an impossibility. You know that if youre a parent and definitely in this situation. So i think that that is, that is a question that is being debated. And, you know, in terms of the victories, ill say that, you know, even if the victories arent directly coming out of, like, a big feminist movement theyre coming like i said, in terms of demographic changes. You know the council of islamic ideology a week or so ago had to say, you know, one of the biggest issues in pakistan had been that men can divorce women by saying, i divorce you, three times. Well this council in 1961 and thats also in the book they passed a law saying that you cannot divorce a woman like that. Since 1961 until two weeks ago this council of islamic ideology has been saying that thats wrong because men have that right, and you cant abridge that. Well, now theyve said actually thats right. The reason for that is because a lot of people are getting divorced, you know . Pakistan, according to them has seen like 100 or 200 increase in divorces. And so now theyre thinking, oh okay, we were preserving rights of men, but now we have to think about whether theres going to be families at all because people live in these cities and they get fed up with each oh, and they go their own way. Say it three times, and ill be out of here. [laughter] you know, its happening. Its happening. So, i mean, there is definitely change is coming, you know . Whether people like it or not. And women are part of that change. Theyre having to fight a very tough battle. And they, you know, my generation at least has grown up on these stories. Stories like this. And in a lot of ways i think that the things that this generation is doing are motivated by fact that look, this is what was, and we dont want this. Thank you. Thank you. Somewhere in your book, i think it was in the early part of it you covered events that took place way back in 1922. And sad though they were i i thought they were very beautifully written. I want to know what prompted you and for those of you who havent read the book, im referring to [inaudible] to a much younger lady which fell apart. Very nicely covered by you. And i want to know what prompted you to tie that story [inaudible] in with this book . Well, there are a lot of reasons. The biggest reason is because, you know, there is this question of plurality and muslims and hindus and [inaudible] in this case be married or live together . And i found in that story some of so to give the background to this is that the founder of pakistan married a parsi woman in the 1920s who was just, you know very beautiful, much younger than him and the son of, like, the richest man in bombay. And she converted at that marriage. And at that time both of them, you know in reading the history were very, very much motivated by this antiimperialist sentiment that was going through at the time united india. So, you know it didnt matter if you were parsi and muslim and you had that difference, you were all against british, and you were agitating against the british and getting them out of there. And thats what that marriage was based on. And so in some ways to see, you know, the sort of demise of that marriage that took place, you know, for me when i was looking through the record and researching for this book was perhaps the demise of that dream, is that well, until the british were there, a lot of people like, you know, the hindus muslims could be united against them. But once the british were gone, you know that unity crumbleed. And thats definitely a theme i think, of book, you know is that do you always need someone to hate . You know, to justify your own life . Whether its before that or afterwards, you know politically, pakistans obsession with india. My aunts obsession with the other wife, you know . I mean do we, do we consciously do that . Do we have to have that sort of to justify what were doing . If i want to say that my choices are correct, do i have to say all your choices are wrong because theyre not the same as mine . [inaudible] thank you so much. Thank you. Hi. Actually had two questions. One of them is, did you actually get to meet Benazir Bhutto . Nope . Nope, i never met her. The other question was, in your opinion whats the worst effects of polygamy especially the effects on the children . Yes. And i have written i mean, in this case, of course, this was i dont want to give too much away, but my aunt couldnt have children, and that was the justification. But since then, of course ive written often on polygamy not you know, in terms of articles. And the horrific effects on children because, obviously they dont have two parents and they have an absentee father a lot of times. I mean really Good Research done on it by a group called sisters in islam which is a muslim feminist organization, and they did a great study that actually interviewed women in polygamist marriages and children to see sort of the emotional effects on children living in this arrangement. And also then kind of the things that happen if, you know, if there are a number of wives. If one wife moves from favor to another, then her children are also moved from favor. So then you go from being, you know, the best loved kid to the less loved can kitted, so on loved kid. So, yes, i definitely recommend you can just google sisters in islam and polygamy. Any last questions before we wrap up . No . I was interested when you said that youre one of twins and that your twin is a boy. Your brother. He is watching right now. [laughter] is that him . No, i mean, hes watching on tv right now. [laughter] im sure hes wants to know what im going to say. [laughter] the first thing he said was like it better not have any bad stuff about me. [laughter] you can read the book and say theres no bad stuff about him at all. Thats what i was curious about, is what he has thought of what youve done. He obviously, it seemed that he would love you, being attached to you in birth and that he would have feelings about you and that you all would share feelings between the two of you. So what does he think of what youre doing and the role that youre playing in the society there and as a writer . Um, a great last question because thats, you know hes extremely supportive. Hes or very, very proud of me and has been through every everything ive been through myself. But, you know, the book and also tries to bring this out is that often individual men dont really have the power to do a lot. So, you know, my father and my grandfather in this story did not want my aunt to to suffer. They wanted him to not do this. But, you know, the community had sort of disintegrated on through the migration from india to pakistan. So perhaps even the communal controls that used to exist where you juan let someone do this to someones daughter had failed. And they werent able to, you know, to stop this from happening. So i think thats important to remember that, you know theres men who are definitely very, very supportive of the men, and, you know ive had them in my life. Ive also had other nonsupportive people [laughter] but definitely so hes very supportive, and i hope at least some of that got on camera so he can see [laughter] how nice ive been. Do you get supporting letters as well from some of your readers, male readers . Yes, yes. Absolutely. Like i said, you know, and this is not a monochrome of misogyny in any way, and ive tried hard to bring that out in my book. Men have and do have and continue to have a very Important Role in being right there with women and trying to change structures. Sometimes theyre not successful. But that effort and that drive is definitely there, and, you know, men and womens lives are intertwined. And you cannot always separate the two, and, you know theyre living life together. Hi. So hopefully a final question. But i wanted to ask you if you could sort of contrast the experience of polygamy or whatever youve seen of men being married to multiple women at the same time in pakistan would that in arab with that in arab countries . I mean, my sense has been that, yes, you do see men getting married to a second wife. With age not very common and compared to what ive heard anecdotally with what happens in arab countries its relative to that. I mean, relative terms [inaudible] it used to be, it used i mean obviously, this book talks about the fact that at the time that this happened it was unheard of. Nobody had sort of there was no precedent for people to see that [inaudible] but i would say that its changing very fast. Right now its quite common. I mean, you know i know many many people who are in polygamist marriages and socially its becoming, you know acceptable. You could argue that thats perhaps because pakistan has gone through urbanization, you know . Islamization has gone through urbanization. Weve got a lot of people who have gone to the gulf and seen a different culture and come back and try to replicate that because the method that whats arab is more muslim than what is asian. So theres many, many dimensions to it. But its, you know, the more times than not i mean its not it can be exploited right . So if theres a poor girl from a poor family, you know, she can go be a third wife to someone whose older wives are, like, ive seen situations in which older wives are sick or ailing and, well, i need someone to take care of kids and the household, so im going to go to a poor family and marry a younger girl there who can do all of those things. All of that needs to be unraveled in the, you know, is that its just exploitation. Theres a marital sort of gloss over it. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. [applause] thank you all so much for coming. Books are for sale behind our cash register, you can bring them back here and get them signed. Please fold up your chairs on the way out. Thank you so much. This was amazing. [inaudible conversations] every weekend booktv offers programming focused on nonfiction authors and books. Keep watching for more here on cspan2 and watch my of our past programs online any of our past programs online at booktv. Org. A look now at the current best selling nonfiction books according to the New York Times. Topping the list, being mortal. Number four is former arkansas governor Mike Huckabees take on politics and culture. Next in killing patton, bill oreilly and Martin Dugard recount the life of George Patton in killing patton. Further down the list is the investigation of a raciallycharged murder in ghettocide. Deep, down dark t is next. Up next is Steven Brills diagnosis of whats wrong with the Health Care System in americas bitter pill, followed by former president george w. Bushs profile of his father in 41. The New York Times nonfiction best sellers list continues with guantanamo diary. And in at i am malala the author recounts growing up in talibancontrolled northern pakistan. And wrapping out the list a history of the underground railroad in gateway to freedom. And thats a look at this weeks list of nonfiction bestsellers according to the New York Times. Now on booktv christopher hill. Mr. Hill appeared on colorado public radios colorado Matters Program that was recorded in front of an audience at Tattered Cover bookstore in denver. This is about an hour and a half