Of the gate ways to let galveston from an 18th century to the new century. More than not it is a point, sort of a marker that we can always turn to and say that it happened here. He is an author and former white house president ial speechmaker who spent years researching and writing his new robert e. Lee biography, the man who would not be washington, published in january of this year. Jonathan has appeared as a commentator on msnbc and bbc radio. His writing has appeared in the new york times, the Weekly Standard and other outlets. During his time at the white house, jonathan served as a speechwriter and special assistant to president george bush, a graduate of yale university, and we welcome him. [applause] thank you so much for that lovely introduction judy. As was mentioned, i used to work as a president ial speechwriter before i started writing this book. So you can imagine my shock when i learned that the subject of my new book didnt much care for my old occupation to. [laughter] in fact, robert e. Lee was so offended when he heard George Washington might have used a ghost writer to pen his famous farewell address that he refused to believe it. And he said anyone who said George Washington used a ghost writer was, quote, injudicious. [laughter] so if ive learned nothing else from writing this biography is that i should say a little bit less about my own biography. [laughter] im so pleased to be at this beautiful house, and im so grateful to the Historical Society for inviting me today. I had a chance to go over and see the Historical Society earlier today, and it is such a wonderful facility, and i am so happy to see that its expanding. Thats a great thing for people who do what i do because we are so reliant on the great work that our archivists and other preservations do to preserve history, so thank you for your great work. Its also a pleasure to be here in louisville. Robert e. Lee actually came through louisville in 1837. He was on a trip out west, and im proud to tell you that louisville made quite an impression on lee. Though it wasnt so much what he saw here as who he met here. Two ladies. And these werent just any ladies. They were, or as lee put it decidedly the most beautiful and interesting young ladies. But never fear robert e. Lee faithfully told his wife every single detail about how he escorted those women to their destinations dutifully. [laughter] what took lee through louisville in 1837 was an assignment that he had received from the u. S. Army corps of engineers which was lees employer. They had sent him to go to the Mississippi River to do some work. And i mention that not because it was actually a river, a different river, that originally brought me to robert e. Lees story. I confess on the surface i seem like an unlikely person to write a biography about robert e. Lee. I grew up in the suburbs of washington d. C. And spent most of my adult life working many that citiment and in that city. And around those parts when you tell people youre planning to write a civil war biography, they assume youre going to write about a union general, not a confederate general. And they certainly dont expect that youll write about that confederate general the old marble model himself robert e. Lee. For a long time, i avoided explaining myself. I did what you do expect someone from washington to do when confronted with a tough question, i ducked it. [laughter] no more. Tonight i want to explain myself. What first drew me to robert e. Lee was probably what you would least expect, simple geography. Simply put lee and i grew up along the same river the potomac. Now, that sounds so surprising for two reasons. First, when we think of the Potomac River i think especially out here in kentucky you probably imagine a polluted stream of political corruption. Now, sometimes thats true. You certainly probably dont imagine a river of American History. And second, when you think of robert e. Lee you tend to imagine him personifying an old south that seems light years away from the cosmopolitan capital that we know today. But the truth is far different. Reminders of robert e. Lee are all around the city of washington, and that was fortunate for me, because one of those reminders was the majority of robert e. Lees papers are within driving distance of washington. So i was able to go to the archives and see the letters that lee himself wrote. But writing a biography requires more than just looking at old letters. It also requires getting out and seeing the places where history actually happened, and robert e. Lees history took place all around where i live. During the course of my research on book, i traveled the full length of the Potomac River from its source to its mouth. And for those of you not familiar with the potomac it starts in West Virginia at the Fairfax Stone where it trickles out of a little stone, it flows down through the Appalachian Mountains past the city of washington and empties into the Chesapeake Bay at point lookout, maryland. And, yes i really did drag my wife for this entire ride along the potomac. [laughter] so for all the things you need to write a biography an understanding spouse is tops. [laughter] but if you ever take this journey ive just described youll learn some p things. Some things. Youll learn that the potomac is much more than just a stream of political corruption. Youll learn that robert e. Lees history flows up and down this river. And you learn that in the most unexpected ways robert e. Lees history intersects with the father of our countrys history and that is George Washingtons history. Start way down river in westmotherland county, virginia westmoreland county, virginia, where robert e. Lee was born on a great plantation called stratford hall. It was built by robert e. Lees great, great uncle, thomas lee. Now, thomas lee has a distinction that no other american has, its that he fathered two signers of a deck declaration of independence. In the great house that thomas lee built at stratford was a symbol of the great wealth that the lee family had accumulated on the Potomac River. The lees truly were one of virginias finest families. And not far from stratford hall, just a short drive away, in westmoreland county, youll find where George Washington was born. And by the time robert e. Lee was born in 18 to07, of course George Washington was long dead. But the lee and washington names had already been fused together. And that was because of robert e. Lees father a man named henry Lighthorse Harry lee. Now, he was one of George Washingtons most trusted cavalry commanders during the revolutionary war. And thats how he earned that nickname Lighthorse Harry lee. But what makes harry rhee most famous lee most famous is what he did after the war he wrote a eulogy for his old commander. Hes the one who wrote the words first in war, first in peace and first in the hearts of his countrymen. And those, of course, are still the words that we remember George Washington by today. And in robert e. Lees time, everybody knew that his father had written those words. Now, much as harry lee admired George Washington, he couldnt quite copy George Washingtons example. He couldnt imitate what he knew was George Washingtons greatest virtue, and what was that virtue . It was selfcontrol and selfcommand. After the revolutionary war, harry lee cycled into a cycle of tragedy. He bet almost all of his land money, he bet all of his money on land, and he lost very badly. In fact, he lost so badly that he ended up in debtors prison and eventually he had to go into exile in the caribbean. He left his family during the war of 1812 and he never saw his son robert ever again. So robert e. Lee didnt grow up on a big plantation because of these financial problems. If you want to find where he grew up, you have to head up to the town offal alexandria where robert e. Lee lived in modst houses belonging to friends and relatives who took pity on his mother. Now, today its alexandria virginia. Bakken then it was in the district District Of Columbia, and the reason for that was when George Washington laid out the original borders for the District Of Columbia stuck alexandria right in the bottom corner. And, indeed, if you look at a map of d. C. Today and take the small strip of land where arlington and alexandria are, youll see it forms a perfect diamondshaped square. He wanted it to include land from both maryland and virginia. And its a town closest to George Washingtons mount vernon plantation. Alexandria very much considered itself to be George Washingtons hometown. And young robert didnt have to look far to see reminders of George Washington. He saw them everywhere. Robert e. Lee as a child worshiped at the Episcopal Church where George Washington had owned a pew, robert e. Lee attended school at Alexandria Academy which George Washington had endowed and robert e. Lee ran errands in the marketplace where George Washington had drilled troops during the french and indian war. And the descriptions we have of robert e. Lees childhood describe him as almost anything but a boy. They describe him as a nurse tending to his mother who was always sick. They describe him as a housekeeper running errands for his family. And no one understood what dragged down harry lee better than his wife and she made sure that tragedy did not repeat itself in robert e. Lee. From the earliest age she taught young robert to put duty before desire. She taught him how to control himself. And for the rest of robert e. Lees life, he had an almost compulsive regard for duty. He would say he could never have his own way. And so as much as robert e. Lee might want for material things he would not lack the virtue that separated harry lee from George Washington. Robert e. Lee knew selfcontrol, and he knew how to deny himself. But what most connects robert e. Lee and George Washington actually happened just up river from arlington, a little further to the great pill harded mansion that pillared mansion that sits atop the Arlington Heights. If you see it today, its right across the Potomac River from where the Lincoln Memorial now stands. June 30, 1831, robert e. Lee married the daughter of George Washingtons adopted son. Today we know articlington as a cemetery arlington as a cemetery. But back then it was a memorial to George Washington because George Washingtons adopted son a man named George Washington custis can has built that house. If you had gone to arlington in the 19th century, you would have seen china and furniture and portraits that had once been in mount vernon. You would have even seen the bed where George Washington had died and supposedly George Washington park custis had left it in the exact position that George Washington liked it. And people from all across the country came from arlington to see these mementos. It was almost as if arlington was a museum. And there was Something Else a sadder legacy, there were slaves who had descended from mount vernon. You might ask yourself how is that possible . Didnt George Washington famously free all his slaves in his will . He did free all his own slaves, but what he couldnt do much as he wanted to do was he couldnt free his wifes sleafs. And some of those slaves became property of George Washingtons adopted son. Now, lee himself thought that slavery was an evil institution. Finish though you shouldnt make the mistake of thinking he was an abolitionist. He certainly was not. He did pray for a day that god would end slavery. It may surprise you to know that he actually thought slavery was worse for whites than it was for the slaves themselves which is an attitude thats probably hard for us to understand today. But, basically, robert e. Lee just wanted nothing to do with this institution and he tried his hardest to avoid it as much as possible. But what ultimately entangles robert e. Lee in the institution of slavery is that his fatherinlaw dies in 1857, and he leaves a will naming robert e. Lee as executor of estates that actually includes slaves who are descended from mount vernon. So on the eve of the civil war robert e. Lee is managing estates that include slaves that George Washington had wanted to but could not free. And so it was very much the unresolved question of slavery was one of the personal legacies that robert e. Lee received from George Washington. And to see how this unresolved question of slavery began turning to violence, you have to just head about 60 miles upriver from arlington 60 miles up river, and youll come to a little town called Harpers Ferry. And it had been George Washingtons idea, actually, to stick a federal armory in Harpers Ferry. His advisers all thought this was a terrible idea. And if youve ever been to Harpers Ferry, you can see why immediately. Its surrounded by three towering bluffs in the blue ridge mountains. George washington thought that would make it easy to defend Harpers Ferry. As it turned out, it made Harpers Ferry completely indefensible, and there in 1859 a group of abolitionists led by one john brown crossed the Potomac River seized the armory and took a number of hotsages. And one of those hostages was a man named Louis Washington who was actually George Washingtons great grand nephew. And john brown took Something Else from Louis Washingtons house not him personally, he had his accomplices take Something Else and that was a sword that had once belonged to George Washington. And for the entire time that john brown controls Harpers Ferry, he is carrying a sword that belongs to George Washington. And who is sent out to take back Harpers Ferry to reassert federal control . Robert e. Lee, i Lieutenant Colonel robert e. Lee. So Lieutenant Colonel robert e. Lee goes to Harpers Ferry, and can hes already known at that time as one of the militarys finest soldiers. He had earned that reputation during the war in mexico. He proved to be a brilliant soldier. He had a unique understanding of topography. He could see things other people could not see, and he quips himself quite well. He performs well, he puts down the insurrection he reasserts federal control. And what becomes known as john browns raid adds another laurel to an already impressive military resume. But it also does Something Else. It heralds the coming of the american civil war. Now i want to take you to one final place on this potomac trip just a little up river from Harpers Ferry. Its a quiet National Park today where youll find a cornfield, youll find a sunking road, and ask youll sunken road, and youll find a stone bridge over a creek called the antietam. There on september 17, 1862, robert e. Lee and the outmanned and outgunned army of Northern Virginia fought the union army of the potomac which was much much larger to a stalemate in the bloodiest single day of combat in American History. The battle of antietam marked the end of robert e. Lees first invasion across the poe otto mack, and it gave potomac and it gave Abraham Lincoln, who was president , the opportunity to issue the preliminary emancipation proclamation which in turn would eventually allow Abraham Lincoln to give a new birth of freedom to the union George Washington had forged. Now, anyone who takes the journey that ive just describe asked must wrestle with an unavoidable question; how did an army officer so associated with George Washingtons legacy go to war against what we today consider George Washingtons greatest legacy the union . It was this question that ultimately drew me to robert e. Lees story. And its that tragic tension and the knowledge that history could have turned out so much differently. Because on the eve of the civil war, leaders on both sides of the potomac in richmond and in washington sought lees services for high command. Both knew about his connections to George Washington. That was common knowledge. And both saw tremendous significance in them. They also knew that Winfield Scott, who at the time was the ranking general in the u. S. Army thought lee was the very best soldier he had ever seen in the field. And robert e. Lee certainly looked like a fine soldier. He stood just under six feet tall, he had powerful, broad shoulders, he had a barrel chest. He had perfect posture. Everybody who saw him said some version of the same thing; that man looks every inch the soldier. And so in april 1861, an emissary for Abraham Lincoln asks robert e. Lee to ride across from arlington and come to the city of washington. That emissarys name is blair, and he says will you lead the main union army to crush secession . And as lee remembered the story blair tried in every way to convince robert e. Lee to say yes. He said blair said to lee, the country looks to you, quote as the representative of the washington family to save the union George Washington forged. And that was hardly b an exaggeration because here, after all, was the son of George Washingtons most famous eulogist and the soninlaw of George Washingtons adopted child. And so now only one word separated robert e. Lee from command of what would be the largest American Army ever raised from glory perhaps that no more than since George Washington had known, and what did robert e. Lee say . Well he said he opposed secession, and he did oppose secession. He thought secession was illegal. And equally significantly he thought George Washington would have opposed secession. And that was no given at the time because people on both sides of this conflict claimed George Washington for their own. Secessionists say George Washington was a rebel who rebelled against a union with the british. On the other side, unionists will say George Washington in his farewell address said to prize the union above any sectional allegiance. And actually robert e. Lee is reading a biography of George Washington in the months before the civil war, and hes hearing these arguments, and he concludes that he basically agrees with the unionist position. He believes that George Washington would have opposed secession. So what else did lee say to Francis Blair . He says that he would gladly wash his hands of slavery he would gladly get rid of all slavery if it could avoid war. But then he says, but how can i raise my sword against my native state . And here blair Family Tradition says lee hesitated as if searching for an answer. But as lee told the story he gave the answer once, no. He turned down the command. Though he did not yet turn in his commission in the army he had served for more than three decades. He returns to arlington house. He soon learns that virginia, in fact, has voted to secede from the union. And then on april 20th he writes a letter resigning from the union army and his wife would call that decision to resign the severest struggle of his life. But just three days after sending that Resignation Letter lee is welcomed in richmond as the new commanderinchief of all of virginias armed forces. And the Convention President the president of the virginia secession convention, says basically that robert e. Lee is the Second Coming of George Washington, and he hopes that what was once said of George Washington will soon be said of robert e. Lee, that he is first in war, first in peace and first in the hearts of his countrymen, the very words that harry lee had used to describe George Washington. So we face this tragic tension in lees story and robert e. Lee for his part would say he didnt have a choice. It wasnt so much that he said he made the right choice he said he made the only choice. It was very much like him to say he could never have his own way, so he decided to have virginias way. But at the same time, we also know that other virginians made different decisions. Winfield scott lees mentor in the army, decided to stay with the union. And when robert e. Lee came to Winfield Scott and told him that he had turned down command of the main union army being raised Winfield Scott said to lee, lee, you have made the greatest mistake of your life, but i feared it would be so. And its true that the decision that robert e. Lee made cost him terribly. One of the very first things that happens after robert e. Lee decides to fight for virginia is that Union Soldiers cross the bridges from washington and seize the Arlington Heights where robert e. Lee had lived. And if youve ever been to washington, you know why they can did this. Because if virginians or the confederacy had managed to fortify those heights over the city of washington, you could have destroyed washington, you could have bombarded the white house. And in time, as the casualties mount in this war, Union Authorities are going to decide to turn arlington the estate where robert e. Lee married the daughter of George Washingtons adopted son into the cemetery that we know today. And thats just the beginning. I think as you read how lees decision to fight against the union tore his ties to its founder, you will be astonished, because it is shockingly personal. The price that lee paid. Now, my wife i bring her up again will tell you that the reason i became sofas nateed about this decision is how irreversible it was. And as a writer i have a very different life because i can write something, i can research it, and then i can change it a million times and revise it. And thats what writers do. But lee never had that luxury. There was no going back. We talk is so often about social movements we talk so often about social movements and trends that we sometimes forget that history is not inevitable that history can turn on the decision of a single individual and here was such an example. Robert e. Lees decision forever changed the course of American History. And if you ask yourself how did it change the course of American History, just imagine the counterfactual. What would have happened if robert e. Lee had accepted that command . What would have happened if the soldier most associated with George Washington had saved the union that George Washington had created . What would we think about our country . How would that change your outlook . And theres perhaps no better place to ponder that question than articlingtop. If you arlington. If you go up past the graves of men who died defending the union and you go up to the Arlington Heights which george which robert e. Lees fatherinlaw originally built as a monument to George Washington but now its the National Robert e. Lee memorial and you stare across the Potomac River at the city of washington, youll see the Washington Monument rising in the distance. But before the Washington Monument is the Lincoln Memorial. And thats a powerful symbol for our country because for all of robert e. Lees connections to George Washington he is no longer the american that we most closely associate with George Washington. That honor belongs to a son of kentucky who was born without a single connection to George Washington. That honor belongs to Abraham Lincoln. Herman melville once wrote who looks at lee must think of washington so deep with grievance meaning, it is fraught. Why i think weve hidden the fraught for too long. I hope youll read about it in my book, and i hope youll come to washington and see some of the places ive described. And im so thanking to you all for coming and id be happy to answer your questions. Thank you. [applause] yes. Theres a story after the war in a church a black man comes forward you know the story. Myself, i dont believe it. But id like you to comment on it because it is told in several ways to be very factual. Could you comment . Sure. So the story is that robert e. Lee is in a church, and there is a black man praying. And robert e. Lee and no one knows what to do because its and robert e. Lee goes up, and he kneels beside him. And thats a story thats been told by many people. And the truth is, we dont know. It was told many years after the event, so its very difficult to evaluate the act rahs is city of the story. Accuracy of the story. Ive just actually seen a recent article with people debating it. So unfortunately, i cant answer the question. There is some evidence that Something Like that happened. What robert e. Lees motives for doing it, thats something we cant answer. It is possible, and i saw a recent article that made this suggestion, what he was actually thinking was, simply put that he didnt like people feeling awkward, and he thought the best way to put this event behind was simply to go on with his business and set an example for everybody else, that they should also go on with their business. So we just dont know. Its a great story you brought up, because i cant say its not true, and i cant say it is true. So its right on the front lines of history. Yes. Im interested in what happened to lee after the war. We just visited the green briar, and i know he spent some summers there. There was one summer a few years after the war was over that other confederate general were there as well, and he ended up signing something known as the green briar doctrine. Can you talk about that . Sure. Let me actually talk a little wit about what a little bit about what lee did after the war. And after the war he leaves appomattox he goes back to richmond, and he sort of has this vision that maybe hell try to get a not of land and farm. A plot of land and farm if the Union Authorities will allow him to do that. But then the most unexpected thing happens. A Small College in the Shenandoah Valley sends a messenger to lee and says youve been elected president of Washington College. Now, Washington College actually had a very real connection to George Washington. It was, had been b endowed very early in its history by George Washington. But the college had been destroyed during the civil war Union Soldiers had run all over the campus they had smashed the facilities, and it was in very bad shape. And most people thought this offer was very beneath robert e. Lee. And, but lee takes a different attitude. He says for four years ive led the young men of the south in war, and now i have a responsibility to help prepare them for peace and to help them rebuild the country. And so he accepts the offer. He goes out to lexington, virginia, and he becomes president of Washington College. And today, of course, we know Washington College as washington and Lee University because it is immediately renamed as soon as robert e. Lee dies. Now, lee did go out to the green briar a lot and there was he did participate in the green briar document that you name. And so that was an example of where he was trying to be drawn into politics. And he was often reluctant to do this, at least openly, because he felt that his voice in politics at least openly was not very useful. And there were a couple other examples of people trying to draw him into politics. He was actually called to washington to testify before congress shortly after the war, and hes asked all kinds of questions, and they really want him to speak for virginia, and he really doesnt want to do that at this point. But he does answer questions and he says i dont even read newspapers anymore which isnt completely true because he still has a very Firm Understanding of whats happening in the country. So he is slightly pulling a fast one. And he does in his private correspondence actually remain extremely engaged in politics. Hes very opposed to what he sees as the radical republicans and what theyre doing to the country. And he actually, i told you that before the war he was opposed to secession, and he thought secession was illegal. But after the war he actually changes his views and you may have heard about some of these letters that he writes. He actually says maybe secession wasnt illegal, and he thinks maybe the Founding Fathers had always permitted secession. So i think its understandable why he may have changed his views, of course, because hes just been through this horrific war, hes led thousands of men into battle and at some point he just absorbs the southern argument for secession. So lee, lee does also do one other important thing, and ill mention this right now, is just because he thinks now that secession might not have been illegal, he tells people that this matter is forever settled. He tells them to raise their children as americans, to put the civil war behind and go be productive citizens. Yes. Did you find any evidence of where his antislavery feelings came from . I mean did he read, like [inaudible] people like that . Where did that come from . So thats a great question. Actually robert e. Lee married into a family, his motherinlaw was very religious, and she took the attitude she basically was one of the leading members of the american colonization society. And she thought it was basically a religious duty to prepare slaves to find freedom in african colonies. And this was a very Important Mission to robert e. Lees motherinlaw and then to his wife. Robert e. Lee wasnt so active necessarily in the american colonization society, but actually his fatherinlaw became somewhat active as well and when he died, he actually left a will, as i mentioned, but the will had Something Else in it. It said you must raise enough money to pay off my debts and my legacy but you must emancipate my slaves within five years. Now, these are completely impossible goals to reconcile. Because he cant pay off the debts and legacies the estate owes if hes emancipating the work force that he needs to raise the money. And this whole conflict actually plays out in the National Media before the civil war because theres a Great National interest in what happens to these slaves because people know that robert e. Lees fatherinlaw was George Washingtons adopted son and that robert e. Lee actually really struggles with this. We can get into that more later but he actually at some point says that his fatherinlaw has left him a terrible legacy. Yes. He has great affection for virginia obviously because he is a native virginian, but there is so much in his life that must have drawn him to have great affection for the nation. West point, United States army. He didnt just live in virginia he lived all other the country. What tipped the scales, in your opinion . Well, i think what tipped the scales and youre absolutely right. He constantly talks about how he, how much he loves the union and his devotion to the union. But he says that hes been taught from his very first day that his first allegiance is to virginia. And even in that time there were people who were surprised. They said it seems strange to us that someone who is so associated with George Washington is ignoring the message of George Washingtons farewell address. But lee never really wavered in this question. He always felt he had a duty to virginia, and he was determined to fulfill that duty. And so in some sense he is in a nowin situation because hes either going to betray his country, or hes going to go to war against his home state. And that, of course, would be very difficult to do too. Its not to say virginians didnt make that choice. Its just to understand that it was an extremely difficult decision to have to make. Yes. How about the statement that one of the differences between lee and washington was that washington realized that the commander in chief what he mainly had to do was not lose the war and that lee never had that insight and that possibly in the civil war that would also have been true . And thats one of the criticisms thats often leveled at robert e. Lee. But if you think about it, the civil war was very different than revolutionary war. During the revolutionary war, George Washington was facing an enemy who was an ocean away. Robert e. Lee was fighting an enemy that was a river away. And he very much felt that time was not on his side. Thats sort of a revisionist argument to say that he didnt feel that. He felt the longer this war went on for the more men that the union could bring to bear, the more that union armies would come to the south and cause damage. He thought that the souths social order would snap. And so, basically he felt that he had to break the norths political will before the south had its social order snapped. And so thats why you find robert e. Lee so devoted to the concept of trying to destroy the union army. And even after his greatest victories, for example the battle of chancellorsville in 1863 hes frustrated. His greatest victory, he doesnt celebrate it because the union army got away, and he felt he had to destroy the union army. And i think there is a good argument to be made for his point of view, that time wasnt necessarily on his side. Yes. I came across an interesting comment [inaudible] sure. And toward the end of the war theres finish. Finish dictator who takes that position, crown me as caesar and maybe win this thing. Kid you come across yes, i did. And, in fact, it was published in newspapers at the time. Newspapers openly said basically, George Washington was essentially a dictator at the end of the revolutionary war. What we need right now is robert e. Lee to take that authority. Now, lee himself was never interested in that. He felt that he could barely do what he had to do to oversee the army of Northern Virginia. How could he possibly take responsibility for Everything Else . That said, he does end up accepting the title of generalinchief of all of the Confederate Forces which just makes his job all the much harder. And you might think, again, he celebrates this as a great honor. But when it comes to him, he doesnt see it that way. He sees it as a burden and not something to the celebrate. Its a sign of how desperate the times were that people were saying things like that. Yes. How can you not support the social order in the south and be for, you know, be for the southern effort, secession and rebellion . He wanted to have [inaudible] maintained as it was. How was that possible to do so . Well i think you can make the argument that he had a more gradual view, and he would have said this, for example it wasnt that he was opposed to emancipation. What he was in favor of, as he said after the war gradual emancipation. He said that was always his point of view. It doesnt mean that he necessarily wanted everything to happen at once. And i think part of the key is understanding that robert e. Lee was truly a conservative. In fact, he was so conservative that he ends up being unable to rebel, i suppose you could say, against rebellion. That might be one of the keys to understanding his personality is that he cant rebel against rebellion, and he gets he basically decides since he cant have his own way, hes going to have virginias way. He opted to support the south, the south of rebellion and slavery didnt he . Well, i think as an actual question, thats true. I mean thats and theres no escaping that. The point that youre making, that is, in fact, what the cause ends up becoming. And robert e. Lee is somewhat aware of that because later in the war there are some confederates who are holding how hope for foreign recognition. And robert e. Lee is basically not interested in hearing it at that point because he says to the rest of the world, this looks like a contest between slavery and freedom, and as long as thats the case, no foreign powers going to intervene on our behalf so put aside those thoughts. So i think your point is well taken. Yes. Did you come across anything in his writings about his thoughts about lincolns assassination . So he actually, he gives an interview when he gets back to richmond which is again, not completely like him. And so hes on the record with his views about that. And he is very disturbed by it. He thinks this is a terrible act, and his biggest fear is that the north is going to blame this on the south, and its going to lead to retribution or even worse retribution than what was already going to happen. So he was very upset about this and he thought this was a terrible act. Could you give us a visual of the signing of the treaty at appomattox . What ive read is lee was so formal in his military gear, and and [inaudible] was just the opposite. Is that accurate . That is, in fact accurate. Pretty much that moment has been described that way ever since it happened. Robert e. Lee comes in, and hes buttoned up to his throat. Grant has his blouse kind of not even fully buttoned. Robert e. Lee has this fancy sword, ulysses s. Grant has no sword at all. Robert e. Lee has beautiful spurs, grant comes in with muddy boots. Robert e. Lee has this perfect posture, grant is sort of slumped over looking, and so you just have this amazing contrast between two great generals. And its something that people noted then and have noted ever since. Yes. I believe that robert e. Lee graduated second in his class at west point. And they it was at the time thaw usually went and became engineers. How was he able to get into the unfan try, and where did infantry, and where did he learn [inaudible] to be able to be the head of the Northern Virginia army . Im glad you asked because actually, robert e. Lee was an engineer. He did graduate second in his class, and he did go into the ec nears, and engineers, and that was considered the most prestigious branch of the army that you could go into and thats why, the reason i said at the beginning, the reason he was coming through louisville in 1837. He was on his way to st. Louis to perform some work on the Mississippi River. Its during the mexicanamerican war that he really puts his skills to work because engineers play an Important Role in deciding where armies can go, and lee has whats called then a, quote, peculiar talent for topography, and he recognizes he can see routes around the mexican army that other people cant see. So he plays an indispensable role in that. But his background as an engineer actually comes back during lees early campaigns in the civil war. We tend to have this image that robert e. Lee was immediately successful in the civil war. His first campaigns were disasters. He was sent to western virginia in 1861, and he has a very elaborate battle scheme for whats going to happen, it requires independent columns to converge all at the same moment and the plan is just a complete failure. And newspapers in the south actually say robert e. Lee is too much of an engineer to be able to command. He is, he is not a soldier, and what we need right now is fighting men. Now, of course, in 1862 when robert e. Lee chases George Mcclelland off the peninsula those same newspapers are speaking very differently about mr. Lee at that point. So [laughter] yes. What was grants personal opinion of robert e. Lee . Did you sure. Whats amazing is grant writes about this moment at appomattox too, and he says lee has hes almost impossible to be able to read his facial expressions because even in this moment of ultimate defeat for lee, he is holding himself together with complete selfcontrol, and grant notes that. The other thing thats so interesting about that meeting between grant and lee is that grant actually has a pretty good memory of robert e. Lee from the mexicanamerican war, and lee has been struggling to sort of picture grants face the whole time that hes been fighting him because during that time robert e. Lee was much more important than ulysses s. Grant. Theres another meeting that happens between grant and lee and that takes place at the white house when grant becomes president , and robert e. Lee actually goes to the white house and meets the newest occupant. And so you can only imagine what that meeting must have been like for robert e. Lee. Yes. You say that he had this peculiar talent for looking at topography. So gettysburg the fiasco right. Where he did not take his lieutenants advisements under consideration, do you believe that his personality of Holding Things in and being in control and being overwhelmed with the loss of Stonewall Jackson and [inaudible] just before had anything to do with his poor Decision Making . Well, lee certainly looks back at gettysburg and has a number of different explanations for why gettysburg fails, he says. Hes not getting good intelligence because jeb stewart has disappeared. Jeb stewart, as some of you know lees cavalry commander, and he goes on basically whats a joyride before gettysburg, and lee relies on jeb stewart for intelligence. He believes his corps commanders dont act in unison, and he believes even at picketts charge maybe it could have succeeded, but no one told him they were running low on artillery. I think its a moment of frustration for lee. He does feel hes running out of time, he has to destroy the union army. And if you go back actually, to chancellorsville i mentioned this earlier and you look at robert e. Lees attitude after the battle of chancellorsville, he is furious. Hes furious that joseph hooker, whos then a union general, manages to escape. And, actually, a lot of confederates think that hookers final position at chancellorsville was a pretty strong position and robert e. Lee was planning to order a frontal assault against that position, but hooker withdraws that night. And so in some sense hooker makes the greatest mistake of his life by retreating, and he saves robert e. Lee from making a mistake that hes going to make at picketts charge. Yes. Did lee ever write down what he thought of arming slaves as confederate soldiers in 65 . He did, he did. He was asked that question directly, and he did say that he thought at this point it was better to begin to enlist africanamericans in the fight and he thought you have to have been include emancipation as part of that deal, because people would not fight unless they were going to get emancipation. Basically, the attitude was its going to have them fight with us if theyre going to be fighting against us. So he does take that view. Yes. I believe after the war there was a lot of pressure on lee from former generals and officials of the former confederacy to write his memoirs, and he procrastinated and, of course, he died in i think, 1870. I was curious though, did he was there any preliminary material that he might have gathered together that was available for historians and so forth . There is, actually, and its a relatively recent discovery. So lee did say right after the war that he wanted to write his memoirs. But you have to remember that he had lost almost all of his personal papers during the war. So hes actually writing letters and asking people to send him those documents so he can try to reconstruct some idea of whats happened. But its such a frustrating process that he basically does abandon project. What he does instead, as some of you may know is he writes a memoir of his father for a new edition of harry lees memoirs and he writes a short biography of him and thats a very awkward task because he actually dose through and you can see this in the edits where he crosses out certain things. For example, it says that his father had zealously opposed the virginia resolution. As some of you know from 1798 and robert e. Lee crosses that out, and he doesnt want harry lee had also mayed an important played an Important Role in putting down the whiskey rebellion, and robert e. Lees brother says something that they Say Something along the lines of trying to make a comparison between the whiskey rebellion and the civil war and how merciful they were to the rebels during the whiskey rebellion compared to how brutal the Union Authorities had been to the late confederates, and robert e. Lee basically strikes this entire paragraph and says i will not acknowledge any comparison between the civil war and the whiskey rebellion. Yes. Hes an icon of the lost cause philosophy but did he ever himself identify with that or write in favor of it or have a comment on it . I think thats, its an extremely ironic thing. You have a soldier who is so reluctant about secession who becomes the icon of the lost cause. You know, his wife certainly recognizes whats happened after robert e. Lee dies, because one of the first things that does happen when he dies, as you can imagine, there are a lot of eulogies given about robert e. Lee, and what do people say about him when he dies in the south . They say he is first in war, first in peace and first in the hearts of his countrymen, the very words that his father used to describe George Washington. So that sort of brings us full circle a little bit here. So but that mythology starts growing up very quickly. Yes. How did your understanding or your feeling for him change as you went through the journey that you described, and from the compelling question that drew you to him, did you find some reconciliation yourself . How did you feel about his decision as an historian . Well, im glad you asked that question because actually going back to the previous question, so much we actually think of to robert e. Lee as a symbol for one thing or another and hes such a divisive figure in our society and were always trying to make him represent something regardless of whatever you think about the civil war. And what i found and which was wonderful to find was by looking at what he actually wrote and looking at the letters he wrote to his wife and to his children, i got to see a man who could be very funny at times, who could be sometimes flirtatious with women as i mentioned to you but he also had just an extreme sense of frustration. He had this feeling that he could never have his own way in life and that he was always being forced into roles not of his own choosing. And theres something about that, i think, that makes his story very tragic. You know i think robert e. Lees story is a unique tragedy in American History. Yes. As president of Washington College, how effective was he and what was his life like there, and what was his emotional state, you know following the war his experience . He was actually a very involved president. You might think that he just took that post and was going to sort of, you know let other people do the work, but that wasnt much like robert e. Lee. He actually held long office hours when boys didnt do their work, they were called in to see general lee [laughter] and we can only imagine how that went. But, actually, we know how that went. A lot of them left with tears. And he actually was quite progressive in his ideas about education. He thought at this point that we needed to the college needed to expand offerings to prepare people for the jobs that were p actually available in in the south at that time. So he really actually expands the school dramatically, he increases its endowment he creates new programs. One of the programs he proposes is actually a scholarship for field im sorry a course of study in a field he really dislikes which is journalism. [laughter] you know i think people see robert e. Lee after the war and a lot of people see him taking long rides on his horse traveler, and they wonder whats on his mind because they can see a sadness in his eyes. And so, you know his son says one can only imagine what he was thug during those rides. Thinking during those rides. Yes. I thought the story of reconstruction has been somewhat reassessed recently or not too long ago or do Many Americans still see reconstruction through the eyes of birth of a nation and gone with the wind . It has been reassessed. People definitely look at it differently. I didnt mean to imply that i looked at it one way or another when i said what robert e. Lee thought about it. What i bring today is what he thought about what was happening to the country. I dont know if you care to know what i necessary necessarily think about the country, and i think reconstruction has been real waited, and we see a lot of good things that calm out of reconstruction that are different from that old, traditional narrative and a lot of ideas that would later find their time in American History and were certainly a better country because of it, so yes. Does lee ever address a guilt about the deaths of many, many thousand men under his command . Yes. So i guess id answer that question two different ways. When hes talking about those people, which is the union army hed be perfectly blunt. He often says he wishes that he could have destroyed more of the army because, again, he thinks its so essential to victory, to destroy the army. But after gettysburg he does say, i dont have the exact words right here but he basically says he wishes he could never see blood again or have to watch bullets be fired ever again because hes seen so many good men die. So i think that is a statement or i wouldnt say its regret, but its certainly a sign of just how much these deaths affect him. And, actually, i didnt get a chance to even mention this but one of the very first most personal deaths that happens to robert e. Lee is curl one of his during one of his early campaigns in welcome back virginia, he brings as an aide another great grand nephew of George Washington. And this man is actually heir to mount vernon. And he dies under robert e. Lees command, and this has a devastating impact on robert e. Lee. He feels this loss very sharply. Is this a final question . Yes. Im just curious, as you studied all the characters back then how do they compare with characters today in washington . Is there [laughter] like, is there some of these guys back then, did you have any thought, oh, that sounds like you know, i said in the beginning when confronted with a tough question [laughter] theres one thing you expect people from washington to do, and thats duck. [laughter] so but youre not in washington. No, im not in washington. [laughter] im often asked what would robert e. Lee say about the way the world is today, and i think its just an impossible question. We cant know because so much has happened, and its not fair to stick him from 1870, which is the last thing he knew, into 2015 and say what do you think about, you know, about health care are reform or Something Like that. [laughter] its just he couldnt have even conceived of where we are as a country. He certainly, one thing we can know, i think, is he would be fascinated by the developments in transportation that have taken place because he was an engineer to the end. And he did have this great he did have this great feeling about the country being bound together by these different modes of transportation. Whenever he took a train, he would quack and say, you know, it could have been a half a day faster if it had been run more efficiently. So i think i think he would find that very interesting. But as for our political situation, im going to take a pass on the question because its just its just too hard to make comparisons. The civil war is such a unique period in our history, and i think we can all agree that we hope that that matter has been forever settled and our country never has to undergo Something Like that ever again. Thank you john. Thank you. [applause] booktv is on twitter and facebook, and we want to hear from you. Tweet us twitter. Com booktv, or post a comment on our facebook page, facebook. Com booktv. Booktv on cspan2 continues, 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books every weekend. Next, Allyson Hobbs examines the lives of africanamericans who chose to pass as white between the 18th and mid 20th centuries. The author reports on the political and social ramifications of passing which included greater rights and opportunities but also isolation and disregard from the greater africanamerican community
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