Good evening everyone thank you for coming out tonight. What an outstanding crowd. Im not surprised. Youve all picked a very good events to go to. I was one of the coowners and i welcome you to this evenings event. Most of you know the drill but just in case you are new to the event, the professor will speak for a bit and then is happy to take questions. We would like it if youd make it to the microphone. We videotaped these events so it is helpful in the audiences. We will end in about an hour and if you do not have a copy of the book has plenty of front and we will be happy to sign at the end. If you could limit the request to this current book we would like to keep it to the current ones please be mindful of that. If you have your cell phone on and you could silence it we would appreciate it and we would be grateful that the end of the event if you are sitting in a chair and not standing that would expedite matters greatly for all involved so thank you for all of that animals are back to politics and prose. We have been lucky to have posted for quite a few of the previous books not all 40 or however many there actually are but if you have it did any you know it is a thought inducing provocative experience into tonight will be no exception. Hes the Professor Emeritus and Pulitzer Prize winning historian and a contributor to the new york review of books and other publication. As i publications. As i said i didnt count but its up there covering a vast terrain. He is widely respected as one of the public intellectuals and if there is a subset that is allowed i do have to say i was thinking about all of this earlier today and how prolific and influential and how widely regarded and how many subjects he has taken on the question did arise what is there left to say. Theres quite a bit left to say. It takes a look at the Catholic Church with particular attention to the Church Capacity for change and adaptation as a confidence to the challenges of the new century. Of course it is pope francis is the backdrop that examines the church and its role and its no better scholar writer think are to help us understand the institution in past, present and future and how it affects the life of so many people around the world so please join me in welcoming gerry back to politics and prose. [applause] what is not to like about pope francis . It disappoints catholic liberals like me but scares the socks off of conservatives. They have reacted with panic and wonder. It is a bit disorienting to have a pope that is actually a christian. For them religion is just doctrine. If you do not hold the right doctrine you cannot be a catholic. So since it is a catholic some are beginning to hesitate about that. He must hold all the right doctrine and the only thing that he can change is the tone. I would prefer to talk about changing the culture. Its a matter of the head and the heart. As he told the interviewers the organizational reforms are secondary. The first must be in the attitude. They signal the cultural change in everything he does. Where he calls himself, where he lived, what he wears and even what he writes in. I want to take a quick look at those before we get into the questions. When he came in second, he was asked what name he would have chosen had he been elected and he said john xxiv. But he had time to think about it afterward and he came up with a far more audacious choice. He was not a priest. No other pope has been named after a layman usually they go for cardinals or whatever. And he was subversive and radical for his own powers. As soon as he died, the order splinter off into all kinds of ways but that couldnt be true. If so, there were observances in the conventional ones. So that is a thing that surprised me at the outset. Second, where he lives. The fact that its not in the peoples palace has mainly been discussed in the austerity. But that isnt what he emphasizes. He says it is a matter of loneliness versus company. He says i cannot live alone. They rarely say they need others. The elaborate century levels in the palace dramatize the apartness into selfsufficiency. Eating at the table to say that he is like you and me. It is a place of transients built in 1996 when they meet to elect a new pope. Before that it was provided by curtains in the halls and offices. During the conclave they had no communication with the outside world by telephone, radio or tv. They said i have not been without tv or radio or telephone for a long time. He also went without his wife because they didnt allow women in spite of the vatican at night. [laughter] the rooms are equal and assigned by lot. He just moved to the slightly larger room he celebrates in the adjacent chapel. He has to use reception areas and the palace for some functions that he is a visitor just like the people he is receiving. Its not an expression of his normal living space. There are deep demons to that arrangement. Before when people went to the residence and was up a pilgrimage to the center of the grandeur. The pope is a traveler living with his fellow pilgrim. Third, what he wears. As it sets him apart to do this here moaning all clothes. If jesus were no garments like this and neither did priests or bishops for a long time even as late as the fifth century when he was the bishop. Now it was invented in the middle ages with the slippers he wore street clothes in the fifth century. Up to that point. Now francis has to wear some given between now and then but he keeps it as simple as he can with a beanie and a plain white suit and ceremonial shoes after his election. And remember the previous vote made for him by prada. [laughter] he said no thank you. He has a bad back and wears the same type of therapeutic shoes. [laughter] one cannot imagine him wearing the long train. Like Raymond Bourque still likes to wear. They still assert the primacy of the office by the symbol they can wrap around their body. In shutting many of these it is a spiritual striptease. [laughter] his fathers both made possible and they went back out into the world wearing rags. In the case of shows what he was wearing when he died. He took the bus with his fellow cardinals and his first trip as the bishop he wasnt in a limousine escorted by police car he was in the police car with his own warnings that the bishops shouldnt be driven and flashy cars. Even on the airplane he mingles with journalists as no other has done and it is to go of him typical of him he was sent a first class ticket. Already his gestures and tones enough . The book is a difficult job because no other in history has lived with the prayer preceding right down the street. And of course loyalists are still in important places in and around the vatican. He doesnt want to break the continuity of the church. In fact hes extraordinarily gracious and in the first statement the joy of the gospel he quotes of john paul and francis and benedict and paul vi to assert that yes he is part of a continuing church and tradition. And because of his experience as a president ial in argentina when it was very hard for him to hold together the traditions of the time he said he made a great many mistakes and he didnt include or consult people enough. He said he was put into young and he said that was crazy. One of the first things he said his wife been wrong. And he doesnt want to be wrong again. One of the things he does not want to do is join one faction against another he doesnt want to join the right or the left. He cannot join the rightwing because it is just too mean. They like to use doctrine as a weapon. Their action reveals so much about them. On this they have written it isnt a prize for the perfect. It is a medicine for the week. Frequently we act as arbiters of grace rather than its facilitators. Those who turn away people from the sacrament in mind me of the terrorist sees his face dalia from that jesus. Now we have bishops saying we have centers out there and they are not going to dine with my jesus. Francis has distanced from such people he says rather than experts with the judges bent on rolling out every thread and deviation we should appear as joyful messengers of hope guardians of the goodness and of the duty. Its by the reactionaries and those rushed to jettison. There are the various which he calls Popular Party at the in the sparsely appointed room he has a statue shes the page can version of argentina. He said expressions have much to teach us for those that are capable of reading them, they demand our attention especially at the time that we are looking to the new. He said also that we should be shepherds and shepherds have to get out and go. He said if you love the people of god you will love what they love. Hes like pope john xxiii. He didnt change from the top by himself. He called and the bishops from the council and they called him a generation of theologians. When the preliminary report indicated that the waxing of the language, the conservative bishops objected into the language was watered down in the final report. Some took that as a setback. But he didnt take sides. Rather, he congratulated them for their freedom, their willingness to debate, further openness and honesty and he calls his speech at the end one of the best that hes made but then he did something very important. Lets publish the proceedings. Now they were set up after the vatican to be a voice from the people through their representatives and the collegiate expression of sharing the office. But john paul said that they were getting out of hand and he made them secret. They couldnt publish the proceedings and they have to turn them over to do nothing or change whatever. They have said because of the preliminary lets see what the issues are and what we are voting for. Now they are going into the second to be known. It isnt just catholics but also all of the leaders in god. In the holy spirit act for all people who are seeking that one. As the archbishop he prayed with evangelicals and in fact shocked some people by kneeling down and accepting their blessing and public. His major statement so far he plays this spiritual message and says that muslims are guided by the holy spirit and we can learn from the treasures theyve built up. At the time when people were calling for the holy war against a billion and a half muslims perhaps the most important contribution that will ever be made well be to make us give up this holy war. That in itself would make him a world historical figure. [applause] this has never happened at politics and prose. You describe yourself as a lefty in the church. Im wondering if there was any event or anything you read that was an accumulation of experiences. Theologically i am countered in him things i would not have expected. There was no quote in the fourth century but politically it was changed from writing for bill buckley by the Civil Rights Movement and the vietnam war and a lot of people were changed by those events. [applause] i go back many years when you and i started out at the National Catholic reporter. When you were the conservative voice he was a conservative and you are a liberal. I would like to ask you to you disappointed in the justifiably angry that the Catholic Church isnt a pacifist church, never been a pope who tells them dont come in the military, they now supply chaplains and ordered them as the biggest rotc program in the country do you think it will ever happen not to Catholic Church will be a pacifist church as the quakers i would love to hear your thoughts. People here that question. All reasonable people should be pacifist. He said no more war. Many have said no more war. They are now saying no holy war ever but that doesnt get back down to the actual performance and for good reason. They led the crusade. They used them in horrible ways. And its all of the trappings of the monarchy. I hope you read the last weeks on the tour are heroically christian. Many of them flew back from the funeral for chicago. That is certainly true. I hope that this judge budget is a little more away from that. Im curious if your interpretation of the election and how francis one and being interested in politics and im interested in how these kind of things happen. [laughter] that is a good question. The question was why would they ever elect this guy. His record was ambiguous. He was seen as the liberation theology wing which caused longstanding hard feelings between him. There was a rift between him and explaining that its something that has taken too long. But he had made arrangements after ceasing to be provincial to retire to a home to be buried in a cemetery that is not jesuits. So he called them and went to their place indicated that long interview six hours spread over three days. We played part of the fact that they made him a bishop and john paul made him a cardinal and he didnt do that with people he didnt trust. I think that he felt this is a man that would oppose the liberation theology. This is a man that was at odds with the chisel just left. He tried to replace its influence with the ones he did favor in the communion of the liberation of all of those fairly rightwing hoops he favored. So given that, they were not sure that he wasnt entirely on their side. Who knows why each of them voted. I think it wouldve been more scared. They needed somebody from outside into the church was growing in the less developed world. They figured hes old. What can you do . Thats what you thought of john xxiii. When there is a pendulum swing of served and when they finally got rid of that benedict is in addition to that than they do say we need to get ahead of this place. You talked about the steps francis is taking to shift the culture. But what hope do you have that he may actually do something to shift the doctrine and what doctrine do you think you might be interested in shifting in their the views on women in the church . Did you hear that question . Hes changing the culture but will he change the doctrine . John xxiii didnt change the doctrine on his own. That is where the monarch. What he did is called the council. It is especially on the whole business of the jewish race. The council changed that. Now i can say that it isnt easy for the rulers especially when they start thinking they are absolute rulers to reverse the court. He was told by others but lots of things get changed in the church by destitute in the indulgences. Thereve been a number of cases where they just stop believing it. Thats happening now in the sacrament. That happened often and things came in for instance and as a matter of usage not of doctrine that could be changed easily. Now on the role of women, the church is behind the liberation of women and so are we on till very recently. Two would go out from under it has been a difficult thing for americans. Theyre becoming more important. He calls himself a lot of things and his coworkers a lot of things but he never attributed andsign addressing my fellow elders. That was the highest office that was conceivable at that point. So as a matter of fact since the priesthood is shrinking so drastically to a small group and old growth, women are doing a lot in my church. The Campus Church of Northwestern University we have had a quarter of a century that i was there they come and go and we had no say over that. But weve had women that we chose ourselves that were the leaders of the community and when the first one of those retired, the students came back from around the country. They have a longer tenure but important influence. But now they are so much in demand it happens three or four times a day and so naturally they have to step up and do a lot of things especially in control of the finances. One of the side effects of the scandal is that they started asking what is this money going to all of these plaintiffs for . So the influenza is going to grow. Its already growing. One of the things they did is exclude everyone from studying theology and they are not supposed to study theology and didnt. They are outside in other parts of christianity. What i used in the Seminary Library of northwestern as much as the other one because of some things i like when i started going there in 1980 there were all the people studying for the ministry. Then more and more there were equal numbers. The pope will not declare the women on equal that they will recognize it. Going back to your earlier example, i have a not to be Roman Catholic but the more i learn about francis the more i have deep feelings i would like to follow him. And that he understands the primacy of the two great commandments. Would you expand on your comment about how he is influencing other denominations and other faiths. Isnt the pope influencing bond catholics as well as catholics. In fact i just came from a reading in austin texas into somebody got up and said why do non catholics like him better than catholics. [laughter] and we said they be its because he reminds some people of jesus. Your first book he was also incidentally about st. Francis so i was wondering did you have the chance to think of pope francis . The question is what would he think of the francis. He was a great democrat. Its like blowing your nose. You may not give it a very well that you have to do it your self. [laughter] i think that he would recognize the spirit of pope francis wants to be with the people. They felt they were in danger of but many thought that they didnt support him enough. When he became the archbishop he would take the bus and go and say i want the priests to get out there. I admire him. You begin by saying that they are particularly addicted to the doctrine. But the doctrine isnt going to disappear from the Catholic Church. We do it reflexively it just happens. Can you indicate what you think might be the direction of the doctrine will evolve in a useful and helpful way rather than the excluding way that it has in many years . The question the doctrine isnt all bad. What can we develop more. What gave them the power to enunciate with christian belief was to try to establish communication between all of the bishops and let me start over and to say the cardinal before he became the pope was asked are you upset that so many catholics do not belief with the vatican says they should be believe on contraception, abortion, whatever and he said no that doesnt surprise me. It isnt reached by boat but by revelation. As a matter of fact it was reached by boat. [laughter] they debated the great truth doctrines and there was a majority and minority vote. And the bishops have been elected. They were not elected. We want you to be a priest so you have to be. And people tried to avoid that and they did. And they said they went to the emperor and said we want him and so he has to come to us. The people were the voice of god and once you were chosen you could never leave. They came to have permission from the community. That was true that the bishop was united in the community and the expression. No bishop should become pope. He would have to leave his people. So you have habits into the aristocratic sons but no bishops it doesnt strike you people how odd that was. The expression should be developed. What is important to do that in a better way. That is the real source of doctrine. Hello, professor willis. I am curious because the pope is coming to the United States later this year and is supposedly going to publish it very highly anticipated cyclical Climate Change as well as many of his choices for the congregation as well as for chicago which is a huge folder were of him going out into the streets. I was curious what are your views on the visit to the United States as well as some of his choices for the new bishops and cardinals coming up into the church. The question was what about the visit to the United States. What do you anticipate . I dont predict, but i hope. If you are in the prediction game he says i get up every morning and i want to be surprised. [laughter] and so far he has been surprising us that way and i hope he continues to. The choice of replacing the very conservative and hes the person that stopped at the church to show that he does want people who are real pastors. There was that litmus test in the preceding. You knew that your path was to meet the demands of the pope so every poll that has been taken shows 80 practice. I dont ever remember hearing a priest inveighed against contraception. The bishops dont care about that. They were addressing and looking up to the pope saying i think it is just horrible. I think it is so horrible that im going to intrude into american politics and see that obamacare is evil because it takes away the religious freedom of catholics not to have any contraception. If exercised their freedom. That is a totally hypocritical argument. I know people who refuse to be ordained saying if you dont agree with the teaching on contraception i will ordained you. Some people like. At the way to the way to succeed in the church was to be a hypocrite. Of those are things that will work themselves out by walking. With the catholics actually believe and do will determine the future. So, you seem to actually like a lot about pope francis and you also seem to really understand the formidable forces and challenges in front of them and the constraints. And hes only been there for two years so why are you disappointed . Why do you say youre disappointed in him clacks while nothing can make up for all of the horrible things that have happened. I know victims of sexual abuse and friends that have been pressuring the church for some kind of heroic sentence. They are not satisfied with the pope. I am not satisfied in a way that none of us can be. I dont know what they expect him to do. He set up commissions and committees and is beginning some of the punishment. One of the problems is that there was such complicity in the cover up such resistance to any challenge that practically all of the bishops were guilty of the coverup. They were acting by a code its like attack any of us and we are solidified against you. That happened with even the bishops who did not actively ignore complaints. There was such a web of the compression of evidence that was so horrifying. I talked to a number of victims into the first reaction of the parents was not to believe it. The priest would say no that cant happen. When they finally got Lawyers Committee started financial settlements with the proviso that they wouldnt take the story to the press or the people in buying the silence. Some exposing other people to what happened because that didnt come out. In rome itself, the whole vatican this cant be true on that scale. That was being said by influential people in the vatican no bishops stood up and said we have to realize the ground weve done and we cant continue it, but they didnt. I suppose a proportionate response would be to fire all of the bishops but i dont think that hes going to. There have been something some thing was about ten although im a fan too. Thank you. Thank you for your books. I was noticing in the latest interview or one of the latest i think this was a newspaper in the slums of buenos aires that he talked about the fact he might be with us for four or five years and im wondering if we should take that at face value or if that is kind of the trickster and if he were to end in the next couple of years what would happen next . He does not have much time left none of us do and what will happen when he dies . I hope that we will not depend on him as much. We will be acting like the people of god as we should have all along. And just as in america once you get Something Like the liberation of women cut their recognition it can be very hard to stop. One of the great things about america is the speed with which the feminist movement has been put in high office. Barney frank in his new book i havent read it apparently that he would never believe that recognition would take place in the speed that has. I think the same can work in the church when you have a francis i. I attended a lecture at the Dominican School of theology given by a writer discussing the demise infecting the priest since the delusions and there is a trend now to return to the solid teachings. Do you think has he ever expressed an opinion on this issue . s been spin a key without a dominican lecture and he was hoping that thomas would get back into. So i was surprised. When you want to go back it depends on what you want to go back to. He was a great saint and liberator of thought. But he has left a terrible legacy and was an often heard of before. That was his world and he was also a great admirer and thought that recovering aristotle in the west which was done by the muslims, was very important and so the natural law will tell us things that are not in the scripture that we can flush out from. The trouble with that is that by natural law he meant things like they are bigger and stronger than females so they should rule. But the order of nature. So they went along and said thats great. Then he came across the question of the status of the embryo and aristotle said it should be killed if the parents were weak and debilitated. They are a fit for life and then when they were born if they were weak and small, they should be disposed of. You cant kill them without the pollution that they should be exposed. After that point they should have begun. You can argue of course but it is the survival of the fittest. They were made the official theologian of the church and its all became kind of forgotten. We never had the course on augustine. One of the reasons is he was a favorite of both luther and calvin. And so in effect the leaders of the Catholic Church said well we dont need him hes sound but hes not sound on lots of things and augustine has this problem too but he is a much more liberating mind. I think we have time for two more questions and as a reminder if you dont have a copy of the book and you would like one, we have plenty of front and two more questions and then we will end it there. Was the growth of the church in the Southern Hemisphere i dont know that much about latin america but it seems to be extraordinarily conservative. In the natural law you mentioned that a lot so what is the future going to be like in the church if we are looking at not only of the population in the Southern Hemisphere but the leadership of the church do you see that continuing and what are the implications . Stomach the question is isnt it growing in the less developed countries and what is the future from that . It was an expression of that. He spoke only northern dialect. So they have embraced a evangelical movement and with no further blessing he has a great sympathy with a lot of the development. There is a kind of repetition of the history of our church at an earlier stage. Its a much more attractive thing to become a priest in those countries because there is no other way to get an education and eastgate poverty or whatever tribal ties have, so you get a lot of what happens in the early to middle ages. It was the only way that you could become influential. But of course there are problems in that kind of culture. I was asked when they came to the interrogator on the stage with him and i met him before and he said please ask me questions. His very next book was addressed the question why have buddhists not come to terms with science . And thats going to be a question, i think in some of these churches, they have to come to terms with the enlightenment. Im curious how friends of yours in the clergy have responsibled to your work, and more generally, how open you think the clergy is. I guess in america specifically to various reforms of the clergy. I didnt get the second part. How open you think the clergy i guess it would depend on the denomination, but in america is open to reform such as marriage and that sort of thing. The question i said in that the priesthood was a Development Reflective of understandable needs of organizations, et cetera, in the church. Post scriptural times can post early church times. But should not have a monopoly on the holy spirit. You know what happened with the priesthood, as with all offices of power, it turned imimperialistic. It said were not only good for saying mass, you cant get married without or blessing. Not a scriptural marriage power in the new testament. There was no priest to bless the jewish wedding. Anyway, the question was why how did priests react to my book . It doesnt say theyre not fine. What been around though if theyre learned theyll teach you. If theyre loving theyll help us organize ourselves as christians, but we dont need them for everything. And we dont need them for the eucharist, either. Theres no translation in the early church. The 13th century doctrine. But she said, how have priested reacted to that. I only know the ones who liked it. [laughter] now, that doesnt mean that a lot of other people dont hate it. Although more the ones who have expressed hate not to me personally put in some publications, are all of them lay people. They want the priests to tell them what to do more than the priests want to tell them on their own, at least the ones that i know. They knew i was not attacking the priesthood. What happens now is that it catholics, if they come to church on sunday and theres in most shows up, they say well, theres nothing for us to do. Lets get out of here. That would not have happened in augusttimes church because he had taught. The. Youre the people of god and he said when bread and wine are put on the altar, theyre you. And he says, when he gives communion, receive what you are the body of christ. So priests are very nice most of them i like. They make contributions. But the idea that the spirit only sends grace through this one conduit, popes, bishops, priests. If that were true, then all of the protestants would just be without god. They dont have the right channel. Thank you so much. [applause] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]
comparemela.com © 2020. All Rights Reserved.