Joyce appleby would you doing these days . Guest i am waiting for spring to arrive in mexicos lichens are guarding. Host i still writing . Guest no i am not or teaching i decided after nine books sizes start reading other peoples books and that is what i have been doing with great pleasure. Great pleasure. Host to miss being a ucla . Guest and his the people but no. Retirement is wonderful. Just wonderful you can do what you want to do you have time to read the newspaper for two hours in the morning if you want. No. The only downside is it chipolte page. Host what booker you best known for do you think . I dont know possibly inheriting the revolution which is a social history of the first generation of americans those born after 1776 with no colonial background they heard about the tradition from their fathers and grandfathers and if not that then perhaps the history of capitalism. I really dont know. You would have to ask somebody else that question. Host are you still active with the American Historical Association . Guest no. I move to taos, new mexico almost two years ago left the big city life and the professional life i used to live across the street from uclas so i felt a part of the campus but basically i and another rule area right by the southern rockies so it is very high at 7,000 feet and very dry a totally different environment but it is also a cultural center. Of lots of art and intellectual life and musics. Host how many years did you teach . Guest i taught 20 years and i lived here for another seven or eight years after i retired. I taught the introductory course that we all taught but the American History courses. When did you get interested in the 17th and 18th century . When i went to graduate school i had a wonderful mentor who could make anything seem charming and he loved to have his graduate students do that a judge jefferson his burst through his death. But as a historic move backwards to the beginning and i also studied english history and robo contact. Host Joyce Appleby we have invited you to be on booktv for your most recent book shores of knowledge new world discoveries and the scientific imagination. What you attempting to do with this book . With writing the book of love that cover. I did not design a but it is columbus from Ferdinand Isabella and paris and pineapples because europeans fell on love with pineapples but they could not survive the trip so little they came back as dried pineapple and they would have trays and they quickly became a symbol of hospitality and luxury then along with the eagle it became the symbol of the United States excuse me the americas. But what i was trying to do for my own satisfaction was answer a question. A fascinating question how is it though west known for his investigative spirit the scientific and acquisitiveness of culture how did they ever released curiosity from the prohibitions the church had maintained on it . Through the 16th century catholics or protestants preached youre not to be curious about gods creation the adultery of the soul to ask of the earth so how do they break through this . My hunch is columbus not his discovery but when he brought back. All of these flamboyant birds bluebeard animals and stories of exotic people and stunning typography of the americas and it was so fascinating people had to break through prohibition against curiosity. From that time on day become curious about the National World then what is the relation of these weird things to the old things . And never looked at those natural objects around them but now they have questions they begin to. How did it free itself from the structure of the church . But when i finished i really had shown how the new world discoveries have led to the scientific imagination which change European Society for rigid cultural system to one that is expansive and curious so it is the history of the origins of natural science. Host we will start with the conclusions in your book prospective the most active a consequence of the age of discovery is the awakening of europeans curiosity about the world in which they lived in it you attribute that to Christopher Columbus . Guest i do to what he brought back he was the Johnny Appleseed he brought things back that he brought back to europe that he took to europe everything he had not seen in the new world europeans and animals as well as well as rats on the ship which was the first in the new world. So this was called the Columbian Exchange today the basis for the study of botany and zoology and ornithology but it started with dimeters. Amateurs. Darwin was referring to others as a naturalist that assassinating to see first to bring back these curiosities and these rich merchants had cabinets with a beak with a semblance of the beak and us seedpod and a menagerie. So to start off with this sepulchre display but then people saw this is very interesting. This really isnt a lawyer and. It doesnt really looks like a camel and the comparison that begins to lead to the collecting of data for these animals and plants and the undermining of to traditions of the greek tradition eric doubt aristotle said it was undermining of the of physical suspicion because these animals were on know was dark so that this can enhance curiosity. More free or speculative are necessary to have explanations. Host at the start of your book you say the Catholic Church waged a campaign against curiosity. What was the reason for that . Guest i think is started with st. Augustine at the time the roman empire was collapsing and the church was seen as though one safe place and a sense fed job of the human being was to understand to not be invested in the world around them. And augustines specifically refers that we dont need to ask the questions like the greek would ask the source of the storm or why do we have the tide. There was a sense of 22 get away from the out worldliness from their spiritual world. Host roughly what timeframe are we talking about . This curiosity starts in the fourth century and continues all the way through even the religious people recognize the do something bold this is natural to human beings says to the forces to the 16th century. Host who was alexander humboldt . A fascinating man. He is a german who becomes financially independent when his mother dies and then it is like now like to be as curious as i want it to spend five years most and Northern South America and it is fascinating by nature and by climate in the of magnetism coming down with the equipment all these things as which he can measure the tide the water how it changes to be interested how plant life changes he is the worlds first ecologist he was interested to show the unity and diversity and how is affected by climate and natural forces. And then to spend five years collecting information and then going back home actually he went to paris to produce a volume after volume which explains everything he knows about the world. Host how you draw a line between him and the 18th century and Christopher Columbus . Guest there are very different kinds of men. I think he was very shrewd and determined and tough but he was brilliant. Christopher, this insisting that cuba was japan so he did not say wow i found a new america he did not have a lot of curiosity but humboldts knew he was the smartest person in almost any room he took measurements to realize savannah was misplaced on the of map said he is not like columbus more like a star when all the with the different personality he was a loveless home both because he was in love with his travels from humboldt but would offer this position he read humboldt as a trance as a teenager so there was an interesting connection and beach read those two voraciously curious. Host this book is different than most of your ears. Is that fair . Guest definitely. Was i retired i realized i did not have to be a scholars scholar i could follow my curiosity. These books were written for the general public really. They draw other scholars but my idea is to reveal a world that i think is interesting. Host you write shores of knowledge that Charles Darwin was pretty significant we dont concentrate on that as much. I just read in another study in which the three scholars point out to that they believe the relationship of apes to human beings where i think it was published about 15 years after it and he presented it as the later question and i guess they have been to ration from his notes and correspondence this is always something i was interested in but this was fascinating because he realizes he gets into these areas with those changes it is the intellectual upheaval. And in fact, he is pushed by a man named wallace who was still of a richer compared to darwin beck comes across the same idea with the survival of the fittest. And then the adaptation the you can have to increase your chances of surviving adult think anyone ever considered him but he was very generous. Host did Charles Darwin understand what he was doing and the impact it may have . Guest he had a very pious wife but there is some line he takes out in deference to her. He is a complex person can certainly his contemporaries knew. Host was the antireligion or spiritualist . Guest 98 he had of belief but that god created the marvelous universe. But as citizen day personal figure to push the of planets around that gravity was enough. That is what i think his religious belief is. When columbus came back the first time from a new world what kind of perception what kind of news didnt make . He makes the presentation in to is greeted warmly to bring back a little cold that he found there isnt much but he brought it back. That open in their eyes to use up possibilities as a very devout christian with the idea is to convert to to christianity. So when he returned for the second voyage 12 ships and 1800 men . And there was an Immediate Reaction that soldiers were no longer needed all these debentures rush choose the new world and then there are two people who go to the new world better writers about it. And theyve right and Natural History and that is extremely important. So then he writes in the spanish. That reaches a much larger audience. So everyone stopped in their tracks but i would say it makes of big impression. Host Joyce Appleby, did the church to understand what columbus was doing and did they continue . I hate to use the term of the church. We have a Catholic Church everybody has the priest that is the all encompassing institution. I dont know the answer or how they responded to the missionaries. Everybody is catholic and the western world they set missionaries and then because of this the first priest and then is concerned the way the spanish treat the native population. And then to argue against how they are insulating the native population. So i do know how the Spanish Church reacted. With the indians with the capacity to make a fortune in the new world and the number of people engaged met there is very little the church could do they could ameliorate the situation but they could not stop. Host the Natural World or the spiritual world, has that conflict always existed in of will it continue . That is like asking will good and evil continue . To is the extent human beings are driven by selfinterest with the wish to be good therell always be this. There was a great wind. Theyre not content to be rich they also want to be right. This is the struggle between using our power and using the power for good. Host who is copernicus . Guest of physicist writing in the 16th century that put forward the idea the earth was circling the sun but the sun was not in the sky for the earth but one of many planets out there and of course, bang galileo and endorses and then was forced to recant. He didnt but he knew that it did he had already used his spyglass telescope with the of moons around jupiter so he had some sense. Host when copernicus but that theory for word was it wellpublicized in certain circles . Guest i imagine an end. How many are really interested with that publicity . So i imagine it was a small group. Host again going back to Christopher Columbus trying to you draw this line how do all these discoveries get made because of his voyage . Is that we were saying . What i say really is he brings back all of these things to the new world and they simulate curiosity. These plants are not here. What explains this variety . They had the advantage something you could pursue a Lovely Garden to support a botanist with that scientific overlay but it is what the book is about how they win from this new material that is brought back that arouses their curiosity. With another story which is interesting, one of my favorite but imagine living at a time what is the shape of the earths . Nobody knew but newton said based on his theory it was in the shape of the tomato but the french charlots to ask anything like this. The the earth is more like a japanese eggplant so you have this idea. There are two french amateur scientists there both brilliant mathematicians and use mathematics he discovered the french lottery gave away more money than it took can so he got involved to buy out the entire lottery. Who would have thought there would go to the new world and if you take the latitude i dont know how much detail to go into but with the royal courts with one doesnt soldiers or the botanist or the astronomers they would spend six years going up and down before they determine the of latitude at the equator. And that only takes 28 months but it is terrible and the mosquitos are so ferocious they have to wear coats even though it is extraordinarily hot. But they did find out the world is shaped like a tomato. Host you write just as europeans were getting used to the idea of the greeks and romans your came columbus with all new world ideas. Guest right. They were learning was important because theyre very curious people and they gave them the feds to follow so with that a new lesson let them disproved what they thought and they nonetheless had their own curiosity to have an impact on the europeans won totally unexpected and the other is much more methodical. Host Joyce Appleby what affected the reformation have on curiosity . Guest there really didnt ultimately it did. I will back up. He is not berry curious are interested but the Protestant Churches spee coz they are new institutions endorsed science in the way the Catholic Church did not ride away right away that these inquiries moved north into france and england and the netherlands where the Protestant Church dominates and there was more receptivity to it. Host what about the of royal families . Did they encourage scientific knowledge . Obviously ferdinand but they were not interested so i would not say that. The katy of france brought back the contingent they were cannibalistic and they brought them back to showcase a fight and it becomes so violent they have to round them up and shipped them back that is real curiosity but it is silly. Is it fair to say Christopher Columbus reputation has taken a beating . I thank this deeply offensive to the indigenous population and we spent a long time in 1982 to decide the you could no longer heard discover a new world someone decided it was columbus his encounter with the new world. Host do you agree . Guest i think it is good. It seemed ethnocentric. Host one chapter of your book is about the pacific. Guest yes. That is an interesting story because in the beginning of the 18th century they knew virtually nothing. There was a hint there was a large landmasses and the southern pacific but it was a plant no one was sure bet that in the 18th century the nations got into the curiosity business actually his first name is james then day systematically goes to tahiti then he creates a vivid of tahiti as delicious place erotica and free love and he writes in the romantic era and he has four great explorations to go all the way from the northwest or he is interested to see the Northwest Passage from the arctic region than he does circumnavigate new zealand to explore the eastern side and then a series of islands with the polynesian people live off. Sova he cherts and after cut it is pretty well down known. Host what did you learn . All those things surprise me. One of the things that is fascinating is lead the 16 they would rush cooks travels out with two publications and he is just fascinated and here his kingdom is falling apart at the very beginning of the french revolution and he decides to send out five ships and if they can find australia and this five ship voyages to stride between new zealand analyst julia and the shoals and nothing is ever heard from them and theyre wiped out i think 30 years later they find some of the remains but there is a 60 yearold named napoleon who wanted to be on the crew and does not make the cut. I think that is fascinating. Wow. How history would have been different if he went on this disastrous voyage. It is all interesting. Now that you dont have to be a scholar are you writing another book . No. I a reading other peoples. Host and not even thinking about one . Guest there is always that fought but it has to interest me and we would not call it a motion but it is a fickle quality or the obsession. Im having a great time reading with other people are doing weighty and for spring to garden. Host new world discoveries and the scientific imagination is the subtitle of teeeight nine most recent book shores of knowledge on location at ucla. The New York Public Library has never cede more traffic was people coming in or books circulated or computer used for Educational Program were at our peak for our history that is incredible with budget cuts and Financial Difficulties and city finances we have more branches there we have ever had because every neighborhood once one we have not cut our hours we have more use than ever that is the way it is experience for most new yorkers and i grew up using my local Neighborhood Library between 20 and 30,000 kids coming to the branches after school every day. It is safe use the computer and do homework and now we have launched for the first time after School Programs to aim to become the largest Afterschool Program possibly in the nation because we have kids coming in and Everybody Needs more help that is part of the experience of the library. Were also the leading free provider of english language instruction. We teach citizenship and to be at 150,000 people and with the south bronx to come to the library. With the non University Partner with the programs so people can come into the library to have a Group Session to find destructors for them and we do the same with call on academy. With quiet places opportunities to take up books and use computers and that is just the circulating library which is the majority where people come into
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