Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On Harlems Rattlers And The Great War 20140705

Disclosure that a u. N. Peacekeeping force from nepal was the source of a cholera outbreak. He leaves readers fully aware of how much remains to be done if haiti is to have a Brighter Future is and it currently is looking at. That is it, they were all fabulous books but one of them has to win the bernstein award. That is dan fagin for toms river a story of science and salvation. [applause] dont go quite yet. Have two words. Wow. All right. I long for liz. [applause] wow. Long form lives because of people like the bernstein family. Thank you very much for places like New York Public Library that care about reality, care about what actually is in this world. It lives because of people like you that support this kind of work and it especially lives because of amazing books like david and jonathan and fred and sheri fink and we are just surrogates for a much Larger Population of people who do this work everyday. This is an amazing faint. Truth actually matters and when it stopped smattering, that is when democracy dies and is harder than ever to tell the story of reality. There are many barriers and all the people i just mentioned, starting with the bernsteins in New York Public Library, they are all helping us tell the story of reality. So thank you very much. [applause] our other finalists have something which should help along the way. Fred kaplan. [applause] jonathan katz. [applause] sheri fink. [applause] thank you very much. And running away with the czech for david finkel. Thanks very much. Congratulations to all the finalists, to the great work you have been engaged in. To dan, thank you again. To helen bernstein, a manner weakest you all this evening to be the new information award. Thank you all for coming. Please stay and enjoy yourself. [applause] [applause] [inaudible conversations] visit booktv. Org to watch any of the programs you see here on line. Tied the author or book title on the upper left side of the page and click search. You can share anything you see on booktv. Org by clicking share on the upper left side of the page and selecting the format. Booktv streams live online for 48 hours with tom nonfiction books and authors. Booktv. Org. You are watching booktv. Next, the first africanamerican regimen to fight in world war i by Jeffrey Sammons, this 369th infantry regiment and the Jeffrey Sammons examines the regiments leadership, its actions in the field of battle and the challenges the men faced following the war. This is about an hourandahalf. It gives me great pleasure to introduce the man of the hour, Jeffrey Sammons is a professor in the department of history at New York University where he has taught since 1989. In 1987, was named the Research Fellow at the university of camden and completed a critically acclaimed beyond the ring, the role of boxing in American Society in 2001. He was awarded a fellowship by the chamber of research. Soon after received a National Endowment for the humanities fellowship for 20022003 in support of harlems great war. Famous is a native in new jersey, earned his bachelors in history at Rutgers College where he graduated and elected to Phi Beta Kappa in 2001. He earned a masters degree in history from Top University in 1974 and the ph. D. In American History in 1982. In 198384, he was a postdoctoral fellow at the university of cape town. After his return he became involved in the Antiapartheid Movement and played an Important Role in this city of houston investment campaign. Jeffrey sammons continued as director of a Charity Golf Event for the Naacp Legal Defense Fund come as a board member of the clear view legacy foundation, black funded and operated golf course on the National Historic registry in east ohio. As an adviser on historical land divers to the matters, in the professional Golfers Association of america. As a member of the museum of Library Committee the United States Golf Association and as a member of the usga pga africanamerican golf apartheid working group Jeffrey Sammons has written widely on the subject of sports and race and has participated and consulted on numerous documentary projects with independent film makers as well as television networks. He is deeply involved in efforts to collect, preserve and represents that which relates to the africanamerican experiences in golf and will write his next book on the subject. Jeffrey sammons has served on the Editorial Board of the journal of sports history and as an assistant editor of sport and social he shoes. He has also taught at Princeton University and holland college, roanoke, va. And dupont scholar. [applause] welcome to our stage. Before you begin, you are not going to see it for so long. Next time you see it. And at that time. I will introduce the conversation partner. Listen to the women. I should have given her the short version of the resume so we could have more time for this discussion but i want to thank the sanford institute, dr. Linda patterson for coming up with the idea for this event. And the support of the center for black literature at met trevors college headed by dr. Brenda greene and Clarence Reynolds who have been of great help to me. I would also like to thank roger green who has actually picks completed the Monumental Task of reading this book. And lost a lot of sleep as the result. Let me move on to a to harlems rattlers and the great war the undaunted 369th regiment and the African American quest equality. I would like to begin first by reading from something that William Pickens wrote. William pickens, scholar best with the naacp, india host hundreds. This is what William Pickens says about blacks in the First World War. We tend to overlook the First World War as an important event in the africanamerican experience. We think about the Civil Rights Movement, we sort of tie in to brown vs. Board of education as if 1954 is the start of the Civil Rights Movement or rosa parkss refusal to leave her seat on the bus or maybe even tied to world war ii but we dont think about world war i as an important event in the history of africanamericans. Here is what pickens had to say. What the war made clear to all, especially blacks was character is more fundamental than reputation. Just think of that. Character is more fundamental than reputation. What does that mean . It means to me that reputation is something that is imposed from the outside, and character comes from within antwan lewis and i would like you to take away tonight from this event is black people need not worry so much about what others think about them, say about them, do to them come as what we feel about ourselves which is really important. I am going to say one thing that i have found as a result of writing this book, and that is that we are one great people to have survived, to have thrived, considering all we have into it and continue and continue to endure. I should also say that i did that at the harvard club and i loved it there but i cant do it alone. We always needed white friends. We need Frederick Douglas needed white friends, we needed a white friends in the Civil Rights Movement and a creamy white friends today, as general james, general Nathaniel James who was a commander of the 369 food president richmond is with us. As he well knows, hes with his lovely wife and the veterans association. We please stand . He knows how important hamilton was to the 369th especially after the war. And his son was instrumental in the establishment for approval but back to William Pickens. Pickens said world war i showed clearly that blacks had become from a most undesirable element to the most reliable element in america as symbolized by the calling out of National Guard troops to protect the white house. Award and allowed blacks from africa and america the opportunity to make their first great record as a modern International Factor and positive world influence. This was a lesson never to be lost on blacks. World war i produce a self confident new negro and all change that came later owes much to the forward looking and forward moving people of the time. That is my introduction tonight to contextualized it. I would like to briefly run through some of the images in the book. I went to wet your appetite, i will sign it for you. I hope to increase the value for you. And also introduce you to some of the important events and figures in the regiment and also served as a tax for discussion that Professor Green and i will have. Here we have a commemoratives history presented by the officers of the regiment to Benjamin Davis senior who was the first black commander of the 369th president and you can see the first of the regiment. First, never lost a man to capture, never gave up a foot and taken, and we also have the symbol of the rattlesnake and that is why this is called harlems rattlers. That is what the men called themselves. I believe harlem hell fighters was something of france would give them and believe it or not the reason that it stuck, the most visible symbol of the 369th after the war was the band. Lot of people dont know this but the 369th was disbanded, it was decommissioned. There was no 369th anymore after world war i so the band became the most visible representative, they embraced the term hellfire, often called the health later banned. I have seen them pass music album cover, has held fighters band etc. Etc. So that says something about Bert Williams was an early recruiter for the regiment, very close to the first commander. Here we have charles young, who should have been first black commander of the regiment and should have been the first commander period and he was drummed out of active duty and restored to active duty after the war, he actually died in africa, this is when he was about to leave. We see an early shot of the National Guard which was the original designation panned they are drilling in harlem. An interesting character, you need to get the book to know that he killed somebody in the regiment and almost destroyed the regiment in his court martial. There we havent men in the trenches with their french helmets, french equipment and american uniforms. You can see the rifles and grenade launchers, they are at the bottom. We have Henry Johnson and needham robert. Henry johnsons application for the medal of honor has passed muster for with the secretary of the army. Is now on the secretary of defense, chuck hegel and the chiefs of staff or the army chief of staff to see if Henry Johnson will get a medal of honor. This is two people who have been misidentified, that is a photograph by james famous rendering of the battle of Henry Johnson at the top and below it, the band. Three portraits of members of the 369th. The flat helmet could have happened before they actually were with the fringe or after when they left the french service. These are at west point and they are in color. Very beautiful paintings. Here we have general james has been there, monuments this is the great us all of the 369th, most obtained their glory. 171 individuals in the regiment received the error and the entire regiment did as well. The 369th did not get that monument until 1997, holds armada in the mountains near the german border. Many people dont know there was a campaign that involves the 369th and below that is a plaque honoring the 369th Weather Service and this is the area close to the rhine and remember the 369th were the first to cross the american troops. The painting representing the 369th on the rhine below that, colonel a word with a number of recipients of aquatic air. Lorelei spencer, the person having a metal pin on him is hamilton fitch who i mentioned before. Next to him is charles ward fillmore who live believe is the person most responsible for the regiments existence. We can talk about that later. We have some widows and mothers of deceased soldiers and William Butler who won the distinguished Service Cross and from barbados, any asians in the audience, there you go. Henry johnson upon his return, the parade, the party, the armory which was built in two stages for the administrative building and the drill shed in 1930 and Benjamin Davis senior, first commander, and the second black commander, came up through the ranks. In world war i, you can appreciate that was very involved in new york city and state politics. Here we have john mccrays famous field written by someone who wrote songs i didnt know he was of, but here is the famous rendering by Charles Rodgers of the battle of Henry Johnson. He titled it two first class americans when it was republished in the black paper, chicago defender, they said to real americans. They wanted to establish how firmly these people, these men were americans. Professor green, i held by was not too long. Dr. Patterson, dr. Green, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. I personally know that there is so much to this story. I compel you to be sure to review the book. Theres so much information there. Bent now as we get ready for our conversation i would like to introduce to you professor roger green. Roger green is executive director of the bunch center for Public Policy at Medgar Evers College. The center is a think tank dedicated to advancing best practices in law, policy and Community Covenants that advanced social and economic judgments for urban communities within the United States and throughout. He was appointed as a distinguished lecturer at Medgar Evers College in 2006. From 1981 to 2005 he served as an elected member of the new york state assembly. During his tenure in the state legislature, green was widely acknowledged as an expert on education reform and children and family policies. A longstanding advocate of civil and human rights, green worked within the legislature, within the legislative preface to enacted numerous laws that reflected his commitment to these principles. In addition to his responsibilities he is a professor of Public Administration and publisher of the soontobe released solutions journal. Welcome, prof. [applause] we had finals this week and many of my students, i crams last night but it was worthwhile. It really was. This was an incredible book. Start from personal reflections, a lot of times when you read a historical book of this nature, it forces you to reflect on some of your own personal experiences so i was thinking about my father who served in the military in world war ii and i was an activist against the work and i knew he was not happy about the vietnamese war. In his last days he called my brother and i to his bedside and he said have you prepared . I want you to make sure all my stuff is in order, written, everything out, i want to be buried in the military cemetery. I was shocked. He said i want the flag over my casket. I paused and i said you are sure . He said this is my country, period. [applause] it hit me. Reading this book to a great extent really stirs up some serious emotions in me. I wanted to start the title the great war, the undaunted 369th president and africanamerican quest for equality. Throughout the narrative is pretty clear that you are trying to to articulate the fact that the securing africanamerican regiment oil service was like breaking the Glass Ceiling particularly in the context of an error that was overwhelmed by jim crow laws, brutal racial oppression, and documented that. Medgar evers, you write black americans have long known that in the master narrative of the nation, there are better represented than citizens soldier. Who initially had secured the Nations Defense as a member of the militia. We have black participation in e revolutionary war, people named themselves thed freedom, jupiter liberty, show that theyre aspiring to freedom if they havent received it already. Frederick douglass tells black men in new york state in his famous call colored men to arms that if we dont fight for freedom in the civil war against the slaveocracy, then freedom will lose half its luster. So this was a opportunity for blacks to prove themselves, and thats one of the reasons why establishing a National Guard unit in new york state was so important to all black new new yorkers but especially to black men. And you lead in right to another point because in another chapter of the book you talk about how in some states, particularly in the state of illinois and chicago, they had already secured an africanamerican president. And new york is thinking theyre very hip [laughter] you know, first in population, first in money. And harlem in particular had not achieved that success. And so i think it was the newspaper, one of the editorials in one of the newspapers that blasted the Africanamerican Community and said that were not living up to the standards of the folks in illinois. Why dont you describe that. And first in social organization. Right. First in social fraternal societies that do this, that and the other, bury all the dead possible, right . Thats right. Yeah. But no political power whatsoever. And tammany hall is a monster. Tammany is really, you know, controlled by irishamericans. Right. The republicans are taking blacks for granted. Tammany cant stand them. Tammany actually sets up something called the united black democracy that is at the city wide level. And as you know as a former assemblyman, and i hope i can call you politician [laughter] its become such a dirty word these days. But in any event, the action is at the precinct and ward levels. Thats where the spoils are. And chicago blacks work that system to their minimum disadvantage. Did you hear what i said . Minimum minimum disadvantage. And so they were able to use their political clout in illinois. They had a black regiment. Wasnt the eighth illinois yet, it was first called the 16th battalion in 1878. Moreover, that regiment was officered by blacks from the top down when it became the 8th illinois in the 1890s at the time of the spanishamerican war. And that became a source of envy for black new yorkers, as you said, who thought that they were the cats me meow. Right. When it came to the black metropolis, Lester Walton says we dont even have a black theater in new york. Thats right. Right . Thats right. So, and my sense is that you also describe that the, in fact, you use the term that the political process in new york city was by southbound tine by zahn tine and was that one of the reasons why they were not able to organize themselves to secure an africanamerican regiment . Well, you also know they were, blacks were fighting among themselves thats what i wanted [laughter] yeah, yeah. And one of the major instigators of friction between blacks was booker t. Washington in new york. We think of booker t. Washington as a southern operator. Booker t. Washington had operatives all over. His tuskegee machine had wide reach and, also, large control of black newspapers. And Charles Anderson was his man in new york. He kept booker t. Apprised of everything that was going on, and charles ander was a stalwart anderson was a stalwart republican. And no matter what the democrats might try to do for blacks that might benefit them and the regiment was one of those things, if the republicans believed that the democrats were going the get create for it, then they would find a way of blocking it. And if they didnt do it politically, as general james well knows, that national forward leadership is going to block it National Guard leadership is going to block it. And ryan was extremely hostile to the idea of a black National Guard regiment and did everything he could to now describe who orion was. Hes the commander of the new york National Guard, and he would become Police Commissioner as well. But he operated for a very long time. He didnt want any, he didnt want a black National Guard unit. We have to understand, too, that the black National Guard is not just a military organization especially at this time, its more of a social club, right . So its all about prestige and status. Its connected to employment opportunities, etc. , things that they did not want blacks to have. You let blacks in the club, then it drags you down. Thats the way they saw things. So orion not only blocked the establishment of a regiment when the regiment is finally approved, he makes sure that it has a white commander thats part of the deal and he believes that there will be no black officers by the time the regiment is federalized and goes to europe. That didnt happen. It had five Napoleon Bonaparte graduate, Harvard Law School defended blacks in the brownsville event was a captain, charles ward fillmore who established a provisional regiment which was essential to the establishment of the reck thesed regiment was a captain. James [inaudible] we think of him as the band leader, but he was a lieutenant in a machine gun battalion. Right. And then we have Dennis Lincoln reid and george lacy who were lieutenants as well. Go ahead. See, in addition to the politicians who were attempting to secure this regiment, could you describe the role because this was fascinating of the media, particularly the black press. In new york city. Chicago defender in chicago and then, of course, in new york city. Well, the role in advocating for. Depended, because there was, it depended on what the politics were oftentimes as to how the house came down on something. And, for example, the new york age would claim, you know, credit for, in some ways for the establishment of the regiment, but i believe its fred moore who is the editor who is, you know, ambivalent at best in terms of his attitude toward the regiment depending on which side would seem to be getting political credit. Okay. For it. What about, i read this was interesting. A. Til lip randolph a. Philip randolph, and his organ was the messenger, and he writes patriotism has no appeal to us, justice has. They were opposed to the regiment. Well, a. Philip randolph, and im blanking chandler owens. Chandler owens, they were socialists. Yes. So you hit upon it. Right. And thats an interesting point to talk about why the military has not been given credit, because the military and especially for the 60 when we have black power and in some ways, you know, randolph and owen are sort of representing a black power ideology at that point this time. But that the military was seen as the mans operation. Right. So if you got in the military, you were a part of the oppressor. Remember, if youre not part of the solution, youre part of the problem. Right. And certainly, the military was definitely seen as part of the problem. Duboise was ambivalent too, and then he came out with his urge or encouragement to blacks to support the war effort. And he was really roundly criticized. Very much so. And tried to regroup be later with we return tighting. Yes. You know, but he told blacks to put their grievances aside during the war effort. Many people dont know that duboise actually supported wilson for president. Thats right. Which showed you how bad the political situation was for blacks not only in new york city, but at a national level, because republicans were taking blacks for granted. Theres one i think his name was puig, who said that you could not drive blacks out of the Republican Party with a sledgehammer. Despite the fact that the republicans especially with taft engaged in something called lily whitism where they were basically removing blacks from the are Republican Party all over the nation but especially in the south. So this was the what i appreciated about the book was because you paint the picture of the, you know, the social forces that weighed against the entire Africanamerican Community, and why this symbol of the regiment became something they could galvanize around. I mean, one part of the book which was fascinating this gentleman, charles ward fillmore, the Equity Congress and how they organized to secure in this regiment. And then even after they came back from the war, organized in an attempt to preserve it and to insure that there would be africanamerican officers. And a black commander. And the Equity Congress is an interesting organization because thats supposed to be a nonpartisan organization. But fillmore is an ally of ander szob and a sawn ander and a staunch republican, and this causes Serious Problems within the Equity Congress because there were a number of democrats as well. Frank wheaton was one of them, and im trying to think of chief lee, etc. So there was actually warfare within the Equity Congress that almost destroyed the regiment movement, by the way. But whats fascinating is that they were able to organize at sometimes has rallies of over 4,600 people. Yes. And the fact that he could keep together a unit, a provisional regiment which was established in 1911 of a thousand men, he was able, basically, to keep them together until 1916 despite all the obstacles that had been thrown in their way. And, of course, a disparagement, actually almost character assassination of him. For the way that, you know, officers were selected and cronyism, etc. , etc. Even marshall, who colonel marshall was the commander of the 8th illinois came to new york and actually did a review, a report on the unofficial of the progress of the 15th new york, whats actually the provisional regiment at the time. And his report was highly critical which also almost led to the destruction of the regiment. Another thing that happened is when the legislation came from albany in 1913 to authorize the establishment of the regiment with a democratic governor by the name of William Salzer who would be impeached and convicted and removed from office eventually, the order was that this regiment was to be formed entirely within 90 days. But the National Guard leadership decided that they were going to muster in the Regiment Company by company to drag out the process. And they also decided that they would basically fail every man who came for examination, came up for examination to be an officer in the regiment. Louis stoatsbury who would be th agitant general later in the Whitman Administration of 1916 says it was of a joke. Nobody too long the legislation of 1913 took the legislation of 1913 seriously. So they were playing with these guys, but fillmore still managed to keep this thing together. And when theres a manpower shortage in the new york National Guard, we have new york National Guardsmen chasing poncho via down on the villa down on the mexican border, and whitman is a prowar republican. He sees an opportunity to, you know, get this regiment actually established with the compromise that he had to make to general orion. White commander, very few, if any, black officers. So as we progress, we now find that we have a regiment. The war, world war i begins. Wilson enters the United States into world war i. Africanamericans in this regiment are then directed to sparksburg, South Carolina spartanburg. Spartanburg, South Carolina, for training in preparation to go over to europe. And so you start in this particular chapter, you begin talking about the war over there and the war here. And particularly the types of hostile Racial Attitudes that they had to face in regions of the south that had just only less than 50 years ago had been engaged in civil war over the question of slavery. Why dont you talk about that, and particularly well, just talk about that. Well, there was great concern about sending the regiment into spartanburg, South Carolina. In fact, Hamilton Fish had written to frank lib Roosevelt Franklin roosevelt who was his buddy at the time. They would become dire enemies later on [laughter] but he kind of grew up with roosevelt, and roosevelt was the assistant secretary of the navy. And he wrote him about why are you sending these black troops into this hostile territory . They went, and as predicted, there was racial friction, basically, from the beginning. And, look, these were, the spartanburg folks said we know how to deal with our black folks, right . Black folks from the south. But you bringing down these, you know, northern three grows who dont negroes who dont know their place and also there are party ricans with them as well, right Puerto Ricans with them as well, right . Laugh so they really were prepared for bear, as you would say. And so hayward had to really talking to his men about not retaliating against any kind of, you know, racial epithets or even physical assault. Its interesting that some of the guys from the 27th division guys were down there as well, thats the new york National Guard. Remember, its interesting, too, that this black regiment is recognized in new york state, but its never an organic part of the new york National Guard 27th division. And, in fact, its called colored in that regiment, but its also brigaded in a provisional brigade of the fourth provisional brigade. So it was like a detached appendage. It was never really apart. So the 27th division was down in spartanburg, but the 15th new york National Guard was separate from them even in spartanburg. They were there at the same time, but some of the men actually stood up for the black soldiers of the 15th new york National Guard. And then theres an incident that involves james [inaudible] this was the turning point, and they said weve got to get these men out of here, or were going to have a race riot on our hands in spartanburg, South Carolina. And i think, to me, this was again part of the book, because you used the term retaliation. So much of the popular media that we see in terms of the role of black soldiers during that particular period are perceived as mostly passive. But the fear that folks, white folks in spartanburg had was in part related to what some africanamerican soldiers had done both in east st. Louis and in houston. Well, houston. And yeah. It was a massacre in east st. Louis, but in houston the socalled houston riot, back soldiers went into houston and took revenge on something that happened to one of it was a black woman involve with the a white policeman, and there were people who were killed. And, of course, something 13 members of that 24th division im sorry, regiment, were actually summarily executed. And there were to be many more who would toll, but finally wilson follow, but finally wilson and newton baker involved themselves and held off on the execution of any other soldiers. And then there was actually a new procedure, a review process that had to be put in place. But, yes, youre absolutely right that there was fear of what happened in houston happening in spartanburg. And so its interesting because you have, like, noble sissel, you know, restraining himself after being abused and beaten in a hotel, white soldiers coming to his defense, right . But also you have a chapter, i mean, you say that beating is one thing, but if there was a lynching, there was a sense even in terms of the top military brass that that was something that africanamerican soldiers would most likely retaliate against. Yeah. I would agree with that. But let me say one other thing that, dont lets not put all on the south. This regiment had trouble in northern tell them about new jersey. Well, also mills and also [inaudible] and long island. Right. But at camp merit in new jersey which is very close to englewood, there were all kinds of incidents that occurred there. But at camp mills there was this alabama regiment that was given right. The men of the 15th fits. Actually, Hamilton Fish involved himself in that, and it was a black boxer in the regiment by the name of george kid cotton who was with jack johnson. [laughter] and they were ready to take on any comers. But the hen had no ammunition the men had no ammunition, but fish said that they were prepared to get that ammunition, and the alabama regiment knew it and backed off. But they had brutalized a black man on a train before, poked out his eye, threw him off the train, got away with it scotfree. And it was a southern officer who was causing or maybe even more than one causing all kinds of problems at camp merit in new jersey. The feeling was we need to get those guys overseas where they can fight the enemy rather than have a race war at home. And so what happens when they go overseas . What is the difference in terms of their reception with the french . Well, lets we missed a step. Okay. Because originally, heres what happens. How did they become the 369th from the 15th new york National Guard . And, in fact, many of the men would hold on to that designation and would call themselves the old 15th or the fighting 15th long after the war, a story that they carried the new york state flag throughout the war. They had become part, without their knowledge, part of a provisional 93rd division that would include in addition to the 15th the 8th illinois which is the chicago National Guard unit which became the 370th, and theres a 371st which is a combination of the National Guard and regular army, and then the 3 72nd which was all regular army in this provisional 93rd division. It only existed on paper. It never existed as a real division in, on the ground. And, in fact, 369th was over there long before the 370th, 371st or 372nd. But when they first arrived, the plan was to have that provisional division be be a labor battalion or labor operation. And our men are serving as stevedores unloading ships. Then as pioneers, bridge builders, track layers, canal diggers, etc. So hayward is going toker bing to pershing in the af headquarters saying, look, our men were trained as combatants, and you have them doing labor duty. This is a waste of manpower, morale is down, etc. The other thing is that the designation 369th is for a draftee unit, and thats why they resented it, because they are volunteers. Right. The National Guard. So, but what tipped the scales in favor of their going into combat was that the french were desperate for reinforcements. And commander paton of the french army who would be disgraced in world war ii but was a distinguished general in world war i begs pershing to give them reinforcements. Wont give them any white reinforcements because the americans want to take credit for winning the war as it were, being there, you know, a year. And also not only winning the war, but winning the peace or positioning themselves to win the peace. So pershing reelements, but theres a relents, but theres a back and forth with the War Department about this, whether theyre going to allow it. And finally pershing prevails, and by march the 369th which they learned of their designation from the french is with the french. They trained for a month, and then not long after their theyre on the front, the greatest episode in the history of the regiment takes place, and that is the socalled battle of Henry Johnson. Yeah. And as i mentioned at the beginning in my introduction, Henry Johnson has passed an important, his application for the medal of honor has passed an important hurdle in that the secretary of the army has approved it, and now its with hagel and the chiefs of staff. Henry johnsons story, that story id heard when i was in albany, because he was from albany, the state capital. And i remember a gentleman by the name of john howe organizing the elected officials to secure resolutions that were sent to the congress on his behalf to have recognized and then eventually bill clinton gave him an a award, a recognition. Bill clinton, he had the purple heart in the clinton administration. It was in the Bush Administration that he received the dsc. Dsc. Distinguished Service Cross. And many felt that was a way of undermining his ability to get the, to receive a medal of honor, that that would take the wind out of the sails of the movement to do it. But go ahead. But so, again, want to go to the difference in treatment that the soldiers experienced in france as compared to the United States. Well, first of all, let me say this, this is something that gets lost. And dr. Green said it very well, that this was rather than an exile going to the french, it was a liberation. And one of the things that gets lost in, you know, the benefits of going to the french, guess what . They knew how to fight a modern war. The americans did not know they were terribly prepared for a had earn war. In fact, pershing was still an advocate of the marksmen, of the riflemen this trench warfare. So what good is that . This is a highly mechanized operation which, you know, a foot of ground means something. So the french were able to train these men much better than they could be trained by their american counterparts. They were told by their Upper Echelon leadership that you have to treat these men with respect. Now, this doesnt mean that the french were, you know, devoid of racialism thats right. But they saw black americans differently than they saw their colonial subjects. They saw black americans as more american than african or black in that they had grown up in this, you know, the cradle of civilization as it were, of culture and coming from new york. So they got very good training, very good in a short period, very good treatment from the french. And for the most part, they were out of reach of the aef and their meddling in the affairs of black except for one thing. Well, i shouldnt say except for one thing. The big thing was that they removed all the black officers from the regiment in july of 1918. Do you believe this . So were trying to win a war, but its more important to maintain the racial status quo to not have black officers be able to prove themselves. The only one who was well, he actually left briefly but was returned to the regiment was james reese york, because they needed him for the band. The other part of this is one of the as general james well knows, that the backbone of a military organization is its noncommissioned officers. And the 369th had great noncommissioned officers, very highly educated. Henry plumber cheatham, chism, noble sissel, i could go on. Horace pitman was a corporal. They could not become commissioned officers. Many of them had outgrown their rank, but they could not become commissioned officers in the 369th, and they wrote about the resentment they had because these inexperienced, underqualified, less competent, far less competent white officers were placed in the regiment over them. So so the battle of Henry Johnson. And i notice that you put quotes around Henry Johnson in the chapter with, and for roberts you did. Well, good point. This it was actually two men. It was Henry Johnson and Needham Roberts who were involved in this engagement. A german Raiding Party had come up on this outpost, a far outpost that Needham Roberts and Henry Johnson were manning. And needham was knocked out of the action pretty early in this skirmish. But he continued throwing some grenades. But he was being carried off by members of this german Raiding Party. And Henry Johnson who had shot some already, had grenaded others already, had when his rifle jammed, used his rifle butt on another guy, and then they were dragging Needham Roberts away. But before henry could get to help needham, a german who he had hit with the gun came up on him, and henry gutted him with his bolo knife. And then henry later jumped on top of the germans dragging needham away and took his bolo knife and jammed it through the head of one of the germans. And with that, they decided it was time to make a hasty retreat. So what happened was that and, in fact, pershing mentions Henry Johnson by both his first and last name. He mentions Needham Roberts beonly one name by only one name in his commercial communique, and thats important. Because there were people from the press who actually came to the regiment the day after this event, and they wrote about it. In lincoln ire, irvin cobb and a guy named greene, there were stories all over the place. This was the big story because there had been no significant victory or episode for american infantrymen in world war i up to that point. We had some aviators who were getting some press, but nobody on the ground. This is may of 1918. Americans are hardly in the fight. At that, at that time. Remember, the 369th, longest on the front. 191 days, all right . So what is the reaction of the American People both africanamerican and whites in response to these stories . Well, let me say one thing, too, that there is a distinction made by the french who awarded the [inaudible] to both johnson and roberts okay. They promoted them to sergeant from private. But henry got the [inaudible] with gold palm which was the army recognition. Right. Thats the highest level. Uhhuh. And needham got it with a silver star. So, of the to division. And so that, there was a distinction made there. Unfortunately, needham came home early. Henry stayed despite the fact that both had very serious injuries. So needham got a lot of play when he came back without henry. But when henry came back, he became the star of the show and, essentially, drowned out Needham Roberts and, in fact, a lot of people didnt even at some point know that needham was actually, you know, a partner in this event. Thats how much the attention focused on henry. And, of course, needham is nowhere to be found in the parade. I do have footage of the parade, and you can see Henry Johnson standing with flowers in his hand and acknowledging the crowd during the parade, but he became the man. In fact, when hayward gave a speech in albany a after the war, it was with Henry Johnson and the flyer or bill for the event said come hear our hero speak. So needham was and this was a problem for needham. It caused him, i think, mental anguish, that he had become forgotten. In fact, he wrote a pamphlet which basically tried to put him back in the center of what happened. And they actually competed for speaking engagements. Henry would follow needham around and tell them, you know, im the real hero of what happened that night. So, because i just got a signal about trying to conclude and summarize, but i think this is appropriate because youre talking about them coming back. And, you know, the sense is that you already talked about they came back feeling as though they were the new negroes based on new sense of selfconfidence, pride, based upon their service. But at the same time, they faced the reality of a country that was still in the grips of, basically, racial apartheid. Could you describe what happened in reference to their treatment when they came back as related to the organization of the tributes, the parades . Yep. And then more or notly, what happens to her importantly, what happens to the regiment. Okay. The interesting thing that i dont have in the book that i just found out is that when the men returned ive already mentioned that the regiment was disbanded. A lot of people dont know that. But the regiment was at camp upton, and thats where they would be discharged, from camp upton, which is new rochelle area of long island sound. There was an order from general mcmichael who was the commandant of that camp that the black soldiers could only rate the black hostess hut which was like a canteen for the soldiers at that camp. And that became a cause celebre. Here we have these men who have fought for freedom, a war meant to make the world safe for democracy, and new yorks not safe for democracy or were not safe in it. And then the parade, some people see the parade which is by many accounts a glorious occasion, no question when you see the reaction of the crowd. But theres a back story there. The War Department didnt want the raid to happen at all. The parade to happen at all. They just wanted to release the men. Then there was the, once again, some white help from a group called the Rocky Mountain club which is a group of mining engineers. Herbert hoover was a member of it. They press for, you know, allowing these people and Rodman Wanamaker was also very important. The Department Store which was big in philadelphia and new york. And then, so the War Department says well let the original 15th men, the men of the 15th march. So that would have been maybe 800, 900 men. Were talking close to 3,000 men of the 369th. And the impressive display that you see with this parade will let you know the concerns they had about allowing these guys with these bayonets glistening, you know, like and they described them in the press as seven feet tall, looming giants, you know . [laughter] all of that. So they were threatening. But the Rocky Mountain club says these men all fought, let them all march. And they marched on february be be february 17th. And david lewis says that this ushered in the harlem renaissance, the new negro, and to get to Professor Greens point, what happens in the summer of 1919, riots across nation. And guess what . Black soldiers, black veterans have bulls eyes on their back. They better not wear their uniforms, especially in the south. A number of them lynched yes. Because they were wearing their uniforms. So, and lets try to conclude yeah. Somebodys hovering. Yeah. Lets try to conclude. [laughter] my last question would be theres been, you know, a few other books written. What was the this all scholarship the compelling interest that you had in writing this book . What drove you . You know, what motivated you to write this . And what particular new knowledge did you find in writing this particular book . Well, what motivated me was how important this regiment was and is and the sacrifice that these men made and the justice that they deserve was not given to many of them, if any, during their lifetime. And you see who the book is dedicated to, right . Yes. It is dedicated to the men of the 15th 369th who served and sacrificed and to all who supported them. And we didnt mention the 15th womens auxiliary which was very important to the regiments success thats right. And maybe thatll come up in the question and answer period. But that was the key for me, to tell the story that the hen deserved that the men deserved to have told about them. And theres just so much in terms of the sources that we have used, the research that we have done. And we also expanded the coverage. Yes. We start much before other scholars do in terms of the regiments history, and we finish a lot later. We bring the remment up to the present regiment up to the present, but also we focus on that postwar period. A lot of people dont realize that the regiment didnt even exist when they came back. Well, professor, this is an incredible book. I want to thank you. Theres a part here that says with sweeping vision, historical precision, and i will agree unparalleled research. I cant imagine the documents that you had, that you researched, original artifacts and diaries, letters to come up and to contextualize all that information in this particular book. And its an incredible book. I would suggest to audience this is a cursory analysis, go out and buy the book, all right . [applause] thank you very much. Great job. [inaudible conversations] thank you so much. Thank you to Professor Green, and thank you so much to professor sammons. Now, before we adjourn to our refreshments, wed like to invite you to share your questions. Id like you to direct those questions to Clarence Reynolds, standing at the side with the mic. Clarence is the director of the center for black literature. So, please, direct your questions there. And may i interject that one question now, professor sammons . No, let the people [laughter] good evening. Thank you for all your information and your research. Im a natural hairstylist, and you just mentioned something about the 15th womens auxiliary. I wanted to know more about it since i havent read your book, but recently in the New York Times there was a oped article where the United States military had created an article called 6701. And it spoke about braids and twists and dread locks and natural hair styles that we wear, you know, in our communities. And just listening to the list of discrimination and racism back then with other 28,000 black women in the military today, theyre focusing on what our hair looks like, not so much that were on the battlefield. And i just wanted to, you know, find out more about the 15th regiment. Okay. I want to ask you a question. Maybe somebody else because i hent meant to follow up on it. Did the military decide to allow sheikhs to wear head wraps . Im not sure. I think they might have. Still a question. Oh, it is . Okay. Well, thats kind of a related thing. But no question. But lets get to the large its a racial issue, but theres a gender issue right. As well with that. And we know that the military has not been kind to women and still is not, and we know what is happening with the sexual assault. Which is rampant in the military. But the 15th womens auxiliary was headed by Susan Elizabeth frazier. Anybody ever heard of Susan Elizabeth frazier . No. She is the and im sure that dr. Patterson knows, the first black woman to teach in a integrated school in new york city. Black teachers had to teach in allblack schools if they were to teach. They didnt teach in integrated or this white schools in white schools. There was a Lengthy Court battle for her to achieve this remarkable, you know, stature. That was in 1895. She was the president of the womens auxiliary. M. C. Lawton who had these womens clubs was the vice president. And charles ward fill hours wife fillmores wife, marie, was a secretary. His daughter was also in the 15th womens auxiliary. What did they do . They helped families of the men with finances but with supplies, with food. They helped the men you wouldnt believe what the men in the regiment didnt have. We would think that this would be offered, issued by the military. It wasnt, you know . Toothbrushes, combs, etc. , all these things the womens auxiliary provided. But Something Else too. The silent protest march of 1917. I was going to right. And the women were very important in the organization. We always hear about dubois and a. Philip randolph and oswald garrison thats right. But the women were very important, were front and center in this march. But also made statements about what they wanted and, basically, they were demanding that if this war is to make the world safe for democracy, then we have to be beneficiaries of this, you know, new democracy in america. So they were also voices for the and, in fact, m. C. Lawton would sign a e decision and sign a petition and wanted official representation with president wilson because wilson wasnt doing anything about what happened in east st. Louis. Thats why we have the silent protest march. And Theodore Roosevelt came out and attacked wilson for not doing anything about this atrocity. Maybe you could give a few more details about the east st. Louis atrocity. Well, its a complicated thing. Its, you know, there was questions about black threatening white economic interests, there was a accusation that somebody had raped someone, a black man was lynched by a mob, and there was actually the other thing is no protection from the illinois National Guard. The governor didnt send anyone out, and people were saying if you sent the 8th illinois out, then what happened after that initial lynching would not have occurred. Thats right. The wholesale massacre of blacks in east st. Louis. But migration is a factor, a whole bunch of, you know, issues, and then you have a catalyst for accusations of rape or something. [inaudible] if you have questions, you think you have a question, why dont you line up [inaudible] [laughter] good evening. I appreciate your information that youve given. Very interesting. Now, you keep mentioning, and i heard you mention noble sissel. Are you talking about the musician . Yes. Absolutely. Okay. And also i just heard you mention Theodore Roosevelt. Did the 369th or the 15th have anything to do with the rough riders . No. No . No. They came later. There was no 15th in the spanishamerican war. Now, charles ward fillmore did serve im glad you raised the issue about the spanishamerican war. Charles ward fillmore serve inside the spanishamerican war. He had been a major in the ohio guard and was commander of a battalion there. And he was put in a unit called the colored immunes. There was a belief in the government and within the military that blacks were immune to tropical diseases, so they used [laughter] black, malaria, yellow fever, they used blacks to serve as nurses for those who contracted these diseases, and guess what happens . Blacks die as a result. Oh. In fact, fillmore contracted malaria but recovered from it. But you asked another question before noble sissel. Noble sissel was recruited by james reese york to be in the regiment. He was the drum major. A lot of people think bill bo jangles robinson was the drum major for the regiment because of Stormy Weather and all of that. Bill never serve with the the regiment. Gil ard thompson replaced noble sissel as the drum major, but he was a sergeant, he was transferred out. The other thing that a lot of people dont know, they think of him with blake after james reese and, you know, the broadway shows. But he was a very famous band leader. He had a big orchestra. Thats right. For many, many years. I think noble sissel died in 1970 something. 72. Yes. Yeah. And one more question. James reese, his what led to his demise . Do you know any details about that . Well, you have to read the book, but [laughter] a hard task master or, and he had a mentally disturbed member of the regiment who had actually come out of the orphanage, and the guy stabbed him after a concert or during a concert in boston with a penknife and it hit the right, you know, artery or whatever, and that was the end. 1919, the hand is gone. Thank you. Okay. Good afternoon. Good afternoon to you. My name is donald. Im chairman of the andy kirk research foundation. And im here representing randy wilson. He told me you would be here, and he couldnt be here, so he asked me to come. Its good to see you, roger. Good to see you too. I got in a little late, so i really dont know. Was there a tiein to jack johnson and jim reese york . I dont know of any, to be perfectly honest. There might be, but i did not make that connection between europe and jack johnson. But let me Say Something about randy west, two things. He told me, you know, rogers struggle with finishing the book this time for this event. [laughter] randy said he would have to take a cruise to finish be it. It. Laugh finish it. [laughter] but, also, people, leads mark your calendars. General james, mr. James, november 9th and 10th there will be a similar pez yum symposium on harlems rattlers at nyu, and randy westen is giving a concert on november 9th with the music of james reese europe. Its going to be 6 p. M. At the [inaudible] center on november 9th. Randy westen in concert, but you have to promise youll come to events the next day, okay . [laughter] on monday. Yeah. Appearing at the end of this month at Concord Baptist Church over there in a concert. Thats right. Give him as much pr [inaudible] [laughter] but my information about the italians tieins with jack johnson and Jim Reese Europe is all dealing with the racial client, and jack johnson stirred up a heck of a racial situation here, much more than our people were catching hell then. Oh, yeah. I caught hell in the racial climate. You see . So i see what has to happen. The people have to understand this was not just one part of the country. No, it wasnt. You see . Thats right. It was heavy up here. Yeah. All over. So that civil rights thing of 65 changed a lot of things. Yes. You can take it for granted if you want to thats right. But i never thought i would live to see the time that were living in today. Back in 1930s and 1940 and 1950s. So im glad i came, because you connect so many of the dots about the social climbs and all like that at that climates and all like that at that time. We can even go back. But, and these are things we have to know. We have to know about this social and economic, political situation of that time. Because we pass by it, and we dont understand it is our job to take us from that first thing all men are created equal to which thousands of blacks gave their lives and fought. Yes. We are still in that revolution. But we keep forgetting. And so we get a few dollars, get a little prestige. Its about our freedom, you see . Well and thats, and thats the thing id just like to, you know in my opinion, with a topic like this, this room should be full. It should. It should with full. And i know with the advertising that it was given, theres no, no excuse. And that thats something that we really have to work on. As i was saying, if you had snoop dogg in here, the line would be, you know, down whatever other street. Well, the thing of it is this, we have to understand marketing. Yeah. We cant just give Great Affairs and expect the people to rally. Weve got to target the market and all this, because this is something a whole lot of people should be made aware of just like [inaudible] not going to solve anything going to have to we thank you so much for that comment. Thank you so much. [applause] thank you. Were talking about everything. History does repeat itself, and i want to thank you again, professor sammons and Professor Green. But just, one of the issues you raised was the effect, the impact of the media on the regiment and on this story. And what was fascinating to me initially reading it was when you talked about Stormy Weather yeah. And how that impacted on the telling of that story. Can you share that with us and