Is detrstroying older ways of le and that attraattracts people o gives recesenment. And the jews are tied to capitalism. When it comes to the way people think of capitalism, one of the interesting theme is i found when premodern thinkers thought about finance and money making they connected it to the jews because of their history as merchants in the middle ages. And i found when i was writing an earlier book, the way in which modern thinkers thought about capitalism was the way they thought about jews. And then there was the fact that because of jews commercial background and a number of other reasons, when jews found themselves in situations in the modern world where they had equality of legal opportunity, they did well in capitalistic societies. And that led to envy and in the wake of the holocaust, jews themselves, while they thought among themselves saw this dis o disproportion, they tended to die it down. And in the decades after the holocaust, their tended to be less of it. In recent years, there was a renaissance of history on the role of jews and the relationship with capitalism and the jews and some of that i tried to bring together. And the salience of jews with capitalism and their success was the source of envy and resented. Capitalism is a modern them into the world and it is impossible to understand the jews without think about their links to capitalism and it is something we have to take an interest in. And it brings up more questions. Host is there a stereotype of jews and capitalism . There are. The association because jews were connected with merchendising and finance and they were regarded as greedy or materialistic especially by those who might be greedy and realistic as well. So that is one stereotype. The stereotype of the jewish banker exercise around the world which was a stereotype in regard to the raw child and then be came a characteristic one on the radical right in europe a. Why have jews been successful in capitalism . I should say they have not always been, but on average, when they lived in society that give them quality of legal opportunity, it didnt legally discriminate against them, they have tended to do well over time. Especially in the western world but not just in the western world. Part of that is because deep historical factors for a variety of reasons and that is because jews in modern europe were deeply involved especially as merchants. A small number, but a salient number were involved in various forms of lending money and finance. They came to modern european societies and to american societies with a greater conversion in commercial culture than people from, say, peasant backgrounds. That is one factor. And among jewsseco, secondly, tended to have high levels of male literacy in societies where most people were not lit aerate. And you had respect for the writing form and the words. And jews were expect today try to achieve some mastery of language, though only a small percentage were able to do so. In societies where most people were not literate, among jews you had lie levels of literacy, especially among men and that is a prereq for this. And then because jews were discriminated against and excluded against from modern life. They could not own land for the most part and by and large they were excluded from skills. There were jewish artisans but wasnt a High Percentage of the population. And when they came into Central European and western european societies and american societies where the legal barriers declined, there was still the factor of social discrimination keeping them out of established areas of the any. So they were led to look for new opportunities and jews tended to be innovators in terms of marketing. And then jews tended to have more International Connections than most people. This was especially important in the early modern world where you would groups of jews in the spanish and dutch areas and they settled in various parts of the iberian coast, parts of the caribbean and savannah or charleston, amsterdam, london, and that formed International Contacts that were important. And in the 20th century even you had an International Circuit of jews from south africa and some settled in paris and london and they became a circuit for the sail of ostrich plumes which were important in factishion. So that explains in so as we can the jewish success. They also came from a cultural where there was emphasis on self control and deferred gratification. And that together with the background, the literacy, and the tendency to be innovators and having international cune cuneck connections all of that turns. The attitude of success depends on two main factors, what were they . When they came to britain, they were functioning in societies that were highly commercial so they were one group of people involved in commerce among others. They could be successful without being salient or noticeable. But in many areas of say, eastern europe, where people were either peasants or you had land owning aristocats where neither groups were in commerce, jews were the commercial class. And with the development of ethnic nationalism in that area and the desire of more from peasant backgrounds to move in, jewish success was more salient and they stuck out more and their success was more resented. How did stalin use the jews . One of the chapters has to do with the radical anticapitalist. Jews are responses to capitalism depending on where they lived. A lot in the western europe and United States were liberals and organized toward parties that were commercially focufocused. But poor jews were attracted to socialism and a small percentage were attracted to the radical form mainly communism. Jews in the early stage of the communist regime were dispor portionately found in the area. Most jews were anticommunist, there were a small percentage of jews that were salient in the communist parties. And that remained the case in russia in the 1920s and 1930s. And then stalin came to use antisumeticism as a tool of regaining his legitimacy. Eastern europe 1945, most of the jews were murdered, the small number left were under occupation by the red army. Some joined to communist secret services and the communist party in order to try get back at those people who had assisted in murdering their relatives. And so again, in the years after 1945, we had an unusual situation where most jews were not communist and most communist were not jews. But you had this Salient Group of jews in the communist parties in romania and else where. And they were resented by much of the population and in the late 1940s and early 1950s they tried to also regain their legitimacy by putting their jewe jewe jewe jewess jewish leaders on trial and accusing them of being spies. And stalin supported this. And stalin and his minnens used this to try to bolster the legitimacy. Dr. Carol wrote it is hard to imagine a more provacotive title. It was intended to be descriptive. Capitalism is a big topic, history of the jews is a big topic, but there intersection is a key topic in the history of capitalism and the jews. I think it was regarded by some as insendary because of the factors i have been talking about about the identification of antisemites of jews from the form of capitalsm and they way denigrated. And it was used by anticapitalist who drew on ant ant ant antisemetic issues. The fact these negative stereotypes about jews and greed and material ism and money stil have an afterlife, although demenishing, adds to the charge in peoples mind. My view was people who are radically prejudice are going to always find facts to bolster their existing presumpitithough. But people who want object sense of modern jewish history bib might be interested in the book that deals with a large topic in a small book what is the connection between your book and Milton Freedman . One of the chapters has to do with a theme on this lecture that was called capitalism and the jews. He claimed there was a paradox in that capitalism he thought was good for the jews and they did well in it but jews were anticapitalist and set out to answer that. I tried to explore both of the hoosiers again and was it true the jews did well under capitalism, it turned out it was. But freedman didnt explore. His assumption is all minorities under capitalism and that is not true for a variety of reasons. And then the assertion the jews were from the russian empire in the 19th and 20th century to the United States did have an anticapitalism standpoint. It was want working well in the russian empire and certainly not for them. And when they came to new york and worked in the garment industry, they were working long hours and that led them to organize themselves. And their children maintained that anticapitalism orientation through the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s. But that was a fleeting stage. In 19th century europe and in the United States they tended to be procapitalist and vote that way in most European Countries today as well. They vote that way in the United States but freedman considered anybody who sported a wel s socalled welfare state. So, i think that freedman was right about the fact that jews had done disproportionately well under capitalism, but i think he ov overstated the case in regard to the Political Organization of jews. What does shocker many . This term . It means trade generally speaking. It seems to have its origin from hebrew word having to do with trade. In 19th century germanspeaking europe it came to be used by nonjews above all by anti semites as a term of stigma of jewish commerce and commerce. It is related to the notion of haggling or as they used to say in the 19th and 20th century, jewing or bargaining someone down in a way that is regarded as negative. It what role did carl marx have in promoting, advertising antisemitism. Marx is interesting. In 1844, he wrote an essay on the jewish question. And there he took all of the negative stair stereotypes connecting jews and money making from the middle ages and said nowadays the problem isnt jews and the relationship to commerce, the problem is now all of us are engaged in capitalism. He took all of negative characterizations about commerce and finance that were connected to the notion of userry in the middle age and played to marx. The labor theory of value maintained that all real economic value came from labor by which he meant above all physical labor with what we called bluecall bluecoller workers and all of the those elements of capitalism that have to do with using ones man versus using ones body, all of those are regarded as not adding real value according to marx. And marx take as lot of medieval stereotypes about money and about the lending of the money and part of the notion is people who lent money were parasitic. He took all of the stereotypes and expanded them from playing to the jews to playing to capitalism as such. Professor muller, what is the reaction of a catholic professor writing about capitalism and the jews . I dont think the fact i teach at a Catholic University has been a major factor. I have been here much of my life and i have been productive here. I am not catholic, i am jewish, though. And that may have played some role. But on the hole, people respont respond to the arguments of the book how long have you been writing about capitalism . On and all throughout my professional life. I started in the later 1980s. I worked on a book called the mind and the market and that had to do with how modern people thought about capitalism and its moral and cultural ramifications. While i was working on that i published a book on adam smith calls adam smith and his time in ours designing a Decent Society and after the mind and the market came out i contind think about this. And i had a piece called capitalism and inequality and what the right and the left get wrong and i am still working on that article. Is there a date certain when it was founded . No. In fact, one of the interesting fallacies i think in writing the story was when i could find a starting point. And there was a debate on who was responsible for the capitalism and was it protestants or was it jews . Actually it is more accurate to think about capitalism as an extension of a process that has been going on for a very long time. Trade has been going on in one form or together for as far as as we go. And prom from the middle ages on, it was in europe, but it was confined within islands. Capit capitalism picked up a lot since 1600 and since then has expanded in its range. And expanded in the areas of life that it affects. So first it was primarily about trading things. Later on, and people consider this the finding element of capitalism and moved into production, capitalism through wage labor. But it is as a process that is going through many stages and i think it is hard to find a point where it begins. But it is expanding in more and more area and i think i will be exploring that theme and that is the many ramifications of capitalism and the shape of changing the family and culture and the way in which people define themselves through what is produced in the capitalist process. It is process that has gotten many ramifications. We have talked about jews, you mentioned the protestants, is there a connection between capitalism and religion . There are lots of connections but they are hard to pin down. It is clear in some times and places, the actual doctrines of attitudes played a role in which they developed into the capitalist direction or not. So the prohibition on usery probably did play a role in creating a space for others in this case good jews, to play a redominant role there. It has been argued by some scholars that atitutes toward this and the stigma of leading interest had a retarding influence on some muslim development. I am not going with that but i am saying it is possibility. There is often a big gap between what religious doctrine ought to be doing with their Economic Life and what they do. So there are links, but they are difficult to pin down. There was a theory where it is true that calvinist were successful with capitalistic societies and vapor thought that had little to do with the doctrines but more to do with the kind of mentality calvinists created. They emphasised work and didnt over opspend. E on overspending and it is striking that part protestant and partly catholic societies tended to see one group less involved. That faded over time, though. You are watching booktv on cspan 2 and we are talking with jerry muller who is a professor here at Catholic University and here is his most recent book capitalism and the jews