Was one of the biggest there ever has been. How many employees do you have . A total of 640. We have graphics and dynamics. Cspan and why is it based in virginia and how far is it from washington . Guest we are in our and a half from washington d. C. You go back in the 50s and 60s when they had had their own manufacturing sites they wanted to find a spot in the country where they had formed people. They view of the farmers as people that have a mechanical aptitude that could draw them into the factories which was kind of the mindset of the doubleday back then. Cspan general manager thank you for your time. Booktv continues with doctor paul the director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Childrens Hospital in philadelphia talks about the dangers of healing and the influence of non experts in medicine today. It is my pleasure tonight to introduce a good acquaintance of mine who is the chief at the division of Infectious Diseases and the director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Childrens Hospital in philadelphia one of the worlds truly great hospitals. Hes also a professor of pediatrics at the university of Pennsylvania School of medicine. In medical circles into sometimes outside of it paul is best known as a co inventor of the road of virus vaccine. We dont worry much about proto favorites in this country so one of the numbers i can tell you to give you an idea of how important it is, this vaccine probably saves around 650000 lives each year. That is an impressive number but i looked up and we are talking about the population of baltimore or nashville or denver or the District Of Columbia every year is saved because of this vaccine. Hes also a founding Advisory Board member of the autism science foundation. He has won many awards including the bradley prize for excellence in pediatrics and the university of maryland and for those of you in medicine come hes a member of the institute of medicine at the academy of science, very distinguished position. Hes published five books and more than 140 papers. His latest book bad faith when religious beliefs undermine modern medicine addresses the dangers of faith healing. David who is the director of the division of medical humanities at nyu said no physician today writes with more passion and courage of the impact of zealotry, hucksterism and bad science upon the health of our children and paul. Hes a wonderful distinguished physician, Health Advocate come hes not shy about standing up for what is true and is clearly shown to be into the Peer Reviewed literature and it gives me great pleasure to introduce paul. [applause] thank you for the kind introduction. I wrote this book because i lived through the 1991 academic if any of you are old enough to remember this but in that roughly threemonth period via 1400 cases, nine children died in a ten day period. That is an Academic Center on the fundamentalist churches in the city. Both of them are still active. The mortality rate was 135 and the reason that happened is that these parents chose not only not to vaccinate their children but not to seek medical care when they became six of instead of giving them fluids for dehydration, they prayed and instant oxygen for pneumonia they prayed. That scarred me and i sort of needed to find out about this. How it was parents could make this choice and how we can allow them to make this choice. So the book is in part about faith healing. There are 25 sectors in the eye the night of eigenstate, Christian Science being prominent, meningitis for prayer instead of for diabetes or prayer is that antiepileptic drug procedures or the violators for asthma and i just needed to sort of understand how parents could come to that choice. It is not only about faith healing that where the religion and medicine for wide. I talk about jehovahs witnesses that dui debate could unite lifesaving blood transfusions and i get into the jewish ritual of circumcision i dont know if you are familiar with the fact that it is cleaning up the wound with sterile gauze and it is sucked up by the person doing the circumcision and that can lead to a herpes simplex virus and its cost of 14 children to die or have permanent brain damage from that. I saw a case a few months ago. So come let me read one section of the book that relates to another, the philadelphia story to give you a sense of this. In 1997, michael was playing in the backyard when his mother and screamed. She ran out of time he stepped on a piece of glass. Michaels father immediately cleaned the wound and and grabbed his sons foot in the towel but the bleeding didnt stop so he redrafted with a disposable diaper and again the bandage quickly soaked with blood. That night he couldnt sleep crying and vomiting. The next night it was re wrapped but it continued. Then instead of calling a doctor they called the pastor of Faith Tabernacle congregation and asked him to pray for their son. When asked why she why shed chosen prayer instead she features in prayer instead of medical attention she said when youre sick you pray and ask the lord to heal you. He continued to plead and he spiraled downward and became crying out in pain. After bleeding more than 19 hours he tightened his mothers arms. An autopsy showed he lost more than half of his total blood volume. He had hemophilia a disease that can be treated and a problem that should have been obvious as their son suffered frequent severe bruising throughout his young wife. The specialist at the Childrens Hospital of philadelphia said she had never seen a child die from a cut. So i think part of the draw was to try to understand how parents could make that choice because one instinct you have is to do whatever you can to save your child. I think if someone came up to you and said im going to take yours or your childs conduit takes viewers every time and i think i dont think these parents are any different. Unlike what we see in the hospital with total and are neglected or abused, these are not parents devoted to their children yet to be free much love their children so what allows them to trump that instinct and i sort of go through a number of things. It can be the charm of the leader like mary baker or jim jones at the temple for people like marshall with heavens gate or other groups. I think the other reasons can be things like the choice to interpret the bible but the thing i struggled mostly with and i figured it out is how you separate what is a strongly held religious belief from what is a dangerous delusion and the guy i spent some time with on the phone who i think was most instructive to me was a man named larry parker. He wrote a book called we let our son died which you would think from the title is a mea culpa but its not. Its a book that rewards the faithfulness which they continue to maintain throughout their sons illness. This was a father that belonged to a Mainstream Church in california. Also unlike many fewer sophisticated and he knew that his son had diabetes. He understood what the symptoms were. Yet he decided one day that he was going to pray for his sons diabetes to go away. He was joined by his wife and by their prayer group and so his son over a three day period sunk deeper and deeper into where he developed progressively more headaches, vomiting, not see a individually slipped into a coma. He then reasoned that during the Funeral Service he was going to raise the rest debate could resurrect his son. There were about 200 people there. There were many major media groups asked to be there including regis and he prayed for his son to be resurrected unsuccessfully then he decided that he was going to not go to his his sons burial because he believed that after his son was. That he would rise from the earth for these later much as jesus had been claimed to do. During that time, he was arrested as was his wife and later the charge was reduced to felony and felony child endangerment. Let me just sort of read my one section. Someone might not be this one might not be labeled with something as gentle as a personality as they went through the personality disorders. In my view he would be considered psychotic in the distorted with a nonexistent sense of reality. For people with strongly held religious beliefs it is often difficult to know where to draw the line between faith and delusion. For example, leary believed that his sons deterioration was a trick played by satan. He reasoned that leslie wasnt really sick he was wild. The devil was testing his faith by making it look like leslie was sick and its hard to label this as anything other than than to lose lose shuttle but many believe that the devil wednesday or then works deceptions so in some ways he represents the cultural norm. The same can be said for the belief of the Funeral Service held on the holy ground causing him to ask everyone to remove their shoes or the belief that god had sent an angel in the form of a bearded man to help the resurrection. Many claim the holy ground and many people believe in angels and demons again larry parker is far from alone however if the actions are to be considered psychotic we would we would have to similarly label all of those who participated and everyone that showed up at the service hoping to see the resurrection. Even the simmons reassured her that he believed in faith healing and we would also have to label the 50,000 christian scientists and tens of thousands of americans who comprised of 20 or so that embraced faith healing. The popular evangelist claims to perform them although the resurrection shortly after happened, no one rushed to put him in the institution. Many members of the congregation believed him. This isnt to say that one couldnt label those that share the beliefs its just you get to the plate so many people share a certain belief that calling them delusional becomes harder to do. I think another aspect of this was this episode that i lived through into the adelphia in 1991 how we let it happen. This sort of thing where children suffer and die and it doesnt happen in canada. As a general rule, american law follows the british law and that was also true here. Year. You couldnt do this up until the mid1970s. And ironically the reason reason they changed is because of something that Hubert Humphrey had done and they created federal funds to try to recognize treat and prevent the child abuse protection treatment act. It was passed by the Nixon Administration but there were christian scientists in the administration that saw it was going to be shown on the religion. The recognition of the neglect that the scientists would come under fire for what essentially is a medical neglect to the pit in the caviar to unless they had a religious exception to childabuse neglect. All 50 states initially passed the law. They later went to jail for their role in watergate. The other was the chief domestic adviser. It never seems to go away, does it . [laughter] the other thing i struggled with in this book was trying to figure out how i would approach it from my own standpoint and im not particularly a religious person and i thought when i first wrote it but i would take the stance by the militant atheism, but i didnt end up there and not at all actually than the reason i think was i tried to see this from the parents standpoint. When we dealt with the parents in philadelphia in 1991, they said jesus was by doctor. So i tried to take this at face value and sort of read through what is known about the historical and read through the new testament to trick him into put him into the historical context. I didnt end up there. We would read through the new testament you cant help but be impressed, independent of whether you believe it is a supreme being independent of whether or not you believe that they made it into the final canon or an accurate representation to the life and work you have to be an in pressed by the figure described as jesus of nazareth. Child abuse was the device. Abandoning was common, children didnt count. Hippocrates hippocrates wrote endlessly about how one should interact with families of the clique ever mentioned the children because they didnt matter. They were no different than slaves. They were property. But that wasnt jesus. Story after story you have been standing up for children children and a time in the time when they were considered a relevant. The kingdom of heaven is theirs. Theres another line which there is another line which was matthew 2540 which was i say to you inasmuch as you have done to the least of my brother and youve done unto me and i think that you could put that onto the entrance way and emblazoned on every Childrens Hospital in the world and to be quite honest with you that the most upsetting to me at the time this was all happening in 1991 was no one stood up for those children and i think it would have been reasonable for the representatives in the church to stand up and say this is not us. This isnt a christian thing to do. It reminds me of that line when all of the majesty of the world and when all of the of that. We always wear the same lay in the hands of others they were small and couldnt hope for help and no hope came and thats the way that i felt. There is an Unlikely Hero in the book. I probably spent most of my time talking with her and i spent 15 hours on the phone with her she was raised by christian scientists, she was a christian scientist, she watched her child over a 12 day period die of a treatable form of bacterial meningitis because she chose prayer and stood of antibiotics and what was interesting is that shes brilliant. She got a phd in english from vanderbilt. She did her thesis on poetry and her husband was also a christian scientist and he got his phd in mathematics. What she explained to me was how i didnt understand how little she knew about medicine. She was able to sort of keep her way away from that. She didnt know that a fever mint confection. But when it all came crashing down when she lost this 15 month old to meningitis, she changed and she decided to educate herself about medicine. I will read one section relating to her. She also did one other thing which is a she went on the phil donahue show and became the first person to stand up and declare a major religion as fraud or in her words fragile. She felt she had been duped and she remains a thorn for the decade shes been doing this. The study can be found in the 2004 movie the village the story of a Community United by fear brought together by the murder of points, several philadelphians decided to create a 19th Century Community in rural pennsylvania. They believed that it could be found by retreating into the past. The two isolated the community from the world they fear they create mythical monsters that are supposedly hiding in the woods referred to as the things of which we do not speak. They wont bother the villagers as long as the villagers dont enter the woods as a consequence no one enters or leaves the village then something happens that the authors had not anticipated. A young man when an infection develops the only way to save him is antibiotics and the community has been created to mimic the late 18 hundreds the time for antibiotics. Knowing they were a hoax the authors allow one of the residents a young woman to travel through the woods and get the antibiotics they need. They picked her because shes blind hoping when she returned she will not realize the lifesaving technologies on the other side. Religions ask the congress to act against a wall, compassion and reason using similar tactics. Rita was afraid to oppose the church and see a doctor because the church believed doctors want to dethrone god and are therefore evil. If she had sought out modern medicine she would have been forced to confront that and the anger of god but she wasnt blind. When she crossed the woods and entered the medical library and understood how she could have treated her sons illness, there was no going back even if it meant improvement from the community should community shipped them all her life and even if it meant challenging her notion of god, her break with the church came when she realized no god but ask a parents child to die in his name. I believe it was made for man and not man for the sabbath and that is what jesus says so i think religious has to work and it has to bless people and if it doesnt if it causes pain committed justifies cruelty then its something i dont want any part of. We have to be explicit in rejecting things with her religious or not. Religion has to serve the good of humanity. Not the other way around. So whats rita did when this happened to her is five years after her sons death, she created an Organization Called childrens healthcare is a legal duty, or child and she spent every day trying to overturn those religiousbased exemptions to child abuse, neglect and a variety. Shes been successful in six states and there wasnt a day that goes by that she doesnt rally to do that. Shes trying to fill and unsellable hole that she will never anyway listen to but this is what she feels compelled to do. What i do for the buck is im donating to the organization which i think is so amazingly worthwhile. So i will stop there. Thank you and i will take your questions. [applause] i probably scared you but i think its a question back there. Raise your hand and i will call on you. Please refer the microphone. Are you saying that in the rest of the states this neglect is permitted and no one stands up and forces the kids to get help . Thats exactly what im saying. Look at this case where the parents are part of the First Century gospel church. They choose prayer instead of antibiotics and when they made the choice their son that was to yearold. And so what happened was they were put on probation. That is invariably the story. They dont lose the capacity to continue to raise their children. They dont spend a jail to be today in jail. They also dont choose antibiotics and then they go to jail and then they are sentenced to three and a half to seven years and their children are put in foster care because always the way that it works as a general rule. The first child you were allowed to neglect and not pay for it. There are two major fake charges, the gospel that will treat children with antibiotics if they get pneumonia or meningitis. They will not give insulin for diabetes. That is happening and we do nothing. What is interesting is when the sandusky scandal broke the state in pennsylvania made a big effort to try to crack down on child abuse laws but when it came to religion they didnt touch it and i think for politicians, religion is dynamite. What i try to do in the book is help lawmakers understand that when people put their children in harms way in the name of god that its not a religious act and shouldnt be given the name. Its okay if you are exposing your child to put it cut it there is a ruling from 1944 its the massachusetts case where the ruling stated that most clearly while you are at liberty to martyr yourself to your religion you are not at liberty and the circumstances to martyr your child to religion. He has no say in this matter. The gentle man all the way in the back. It seems there is a double standard for this type of activity because if you abuse a child and its not religiously motivated, you get severely punished but then when you inject religion into it you and you sort of get a slap on the wrist so i am not sure what can be done but i think people need to be more vigilant about it and say if you abuse a child you abuse a child it doesnt matter whether you are a Roman Catholic or whatever the child still suffers and probably died as a result of this. I couldnt agree more. If you choose not to give an antifeature medicine seizure medicine to the childhood epilepsy in the name of god coming you are good. If you do that in the name of spaghetti monster, you do it in an institution. He treated his son with insulin and then he stopped. What made him stop . She knew his son had a lifelong illness and he knew he was faithful to god and believed that it would be rewarded. He looked to a number of wines especially in sean where it says in your faithfulness he will be rewarded with a variety of things and he took that literally and believed that if he prayed this would all go away. He has since regretted that because decades later but that was the thinking at the time. But its interesting that his wife also went along with it as did about six or seven other members of the prayer group. The pastor was very absurd about this and tried desperately to talk out of it but the child died over the period of three days. Stomach have there been studies in other countries, germany, france, etc. That show similar numbers in terms of people not being willing to vaccinate or that sort of thing were calling on the religion . As a general rule is it is unique to america we are a country that is founded and when it comes to religion, we stand back. The First Amendment says the that Congress Shall enact no law regarding the establishment of religion or the practice thereof. Although the truth is that we do have the laws regarding the practice religion. There are several examples of that if a parent chooses not to get give a lifesaving transfusion you can get a court order. That has gone to the Supreme Court twice and has ruled in favor of the children as far as i am concerned. If you are a fundamentalist mormon coming you at least technically are not allowed to practice polygamy. If you are a member of the Native American Church into this came up in the case in oregon that went to the Supreme Court and you believe that smoking peyote helps you get closer to your creator if that violates existing drug laws which it will because it is a schedule one drug, you are not allowed to do that so there are examples where we do have to make the law regarding the practice of religion. And i think that if the case ever went to the Supreme Court if what really help that she tried to put some of the cases in the court and she went back because no one likes to touch religion. Thats what they perceive to be religion. As a practicing pediatrician and i loved your last book can you draw any similarities between the religious thing and the parents who dont vaccinate their children because they dont really fit to be kobe leave it, its not religion but its just denying the fact. Do you believe in magic by the nonsensical alternative to medicine. There are some alternatives that have religious overtones yes that but in the sense that its a belief sometimes people will say regarding vaccines how can i get parents to believe in vaccines you dont have have to believe in them. They are in evidencebased system and there is a mountain of evidence that shows faith and religion in this book. How much good has it done you cant set the whole thing aside. Religion is a matter of faith. You have to believe in the existence of things which live above the natural law that jesus was resurrected as a part of the red sea. That violates what we know to be the law. Thats the belief system. People with certain aspects of alternative medicine need to believe in it and in some ways thats how it can work. Questions on the left and then the gentleman over here. I was wondering if you talk about scientology and their views. Initially i had two pages. I dont know if you deal with scientology at all but this is one where Teachers Group and i had a lot of trouble calling that a church. I understand the federal government called it that but its basically a Science Fiction book i just have trouble with it. It was actually on last night on pbs. I wonder if you had any thoughts about the colleagues that might be complicit in this response to the disease and im thinking of the Clinical Trials on the intercessory prayer. It seems like that is a combination to the faithbased approach to disease. And the Templeton Foundation here finds a lot of the studies. They want to believe that there is evidence there and that the prayer includes Distance Learning that can make a difference. Certainly there is no good evidence. If you look at the study there are books on this and the people that believe in the existence its been done by people that dont want to find that result. So when i was in the hospital a few years ago and the chaplain came by and had surgery and asked me if i wanted him to pray for me i said sure because i didnt want to hurt his feelings because he was so energetic and enthusiastic. But it was all very calm him. So do i think that makes a difference, sure. Do i think that it can be specific that can affect your Blood Pressure i think to this womans question there is a physiology and those try to understand that if that makes any sense. I am im not saying dont pray im just saying i cant believe it is the same. Stomach of a gentle man in the middle. I have a nephew of praise religiously mostly to get him into a private school that he was five at the time one day when he told me it would be really awesome if i died because i would have so much fun in heaven and i would get to see grandpa again. I was shocked and terrified and caught offguard like no, we dont want to do that. You want to spend as much time with people that are here. We would love and miss you and i would be sad. And i had a conversation with his brother. I could see myself throwing punches because you dont want to offend religion. There is still that instinct so im curious how youd handle the conversation with a 5yearold as well as an adult and how you personally might have handled that situation. Because i maybe ill just sign the first he would want to ask that question. [laughter] i have no trouble believing this but i dont want to encourage them into the World Trade Center as a way to get there. Just dont do anything stupid or harmful. I came to find myself embracing certain aspects i guess its always separated but there is a lot of good stories. Hes one of our assistance that reads the bible every day and takes a tremendous strength from that. The point comes from this book dont do harm and we shouldnt allow that to occur in the name of religion because im trying to make a case that is not religious. I was wondering whether you have any insight if the state of mississippi which i dont think that any of us think of as the most liberal or advanced stage in state in the union is the only state that has no prohibition against vaccination for religious or philosophical grounds. There are two states that dont have religious exceptions. One is mississippi and the other is virginia. The vaccination rate in mississippi for children two to three years of age is 99. 7 which is remarkable because the state isnt that great on other Health Care Issues but for vaccines they are great. In a more rational world, we wouldnt have the medical exemptions because it doesnt make sense. I would argue i wrote an oped piece that was published a few weeks ago. The title was what would jesus do about measles. It caused a number of people i knew from college to email me and say when did you start to quote scripture but the point of that was it really shouldnt be allowed and i feel the same way about philosophical exemptions. Where is the wisdom that says it is better or not. So call it what it is i dont want to get these vaccines. I listened to Jenny Mccarthy and she had her clothes on so i trust her. [laughter] call it that because thats really what it is. Sorry about the Jenny Mccarthy remark. She is my go to prison for person for healthcare advice. [laughter] there is a microphone. I think maybe one of the major issues is if you can truly bb that when you die you are going to go to a wonderful place and what is the definition of harm . Thats one of the things ive been wondering if you truly believe that you are better off for whatever and you can add a thousand Different Things if i do this or that or fly into a building i would be better off how could you come there are such there are such things as harm such as not harm. Its so hard because you could reasonably argue that its all delusional. Where is the evidence that jesus was the son of god . Where is the evidence that he was resurrected. How we handle that in the country is that we say it a good thing and we say that its a good thing but way up to the point of being it being a really bad thing. And so how you draw that line is hard and i dont have an answer. Im taking the simplest thing. When i wrote the chapter of the way personally prochoice it is hard to ignore the fact that when an egg is fertilized and they now have human dna is perfectly capable of growing up to be an 80yearold happy, healthy, contributing human being. The question then becomes to what extent you value the life of the mother versus the potential unborn. I dont know the answer to that so i took the easy way out. If it is the choice of saving one life or none then you save one, and amazingly the Catholic Church hasnt been perfect on this. That is clearly so wrong. There is an example of the case in phoenix and ireland. They had to get this out and they they didnt do that and she died and they changed the law. The procedure was delayed and that changed the world so i guess i would take the easy way out of that its funny although i am prochoice, i really struggled with that because you cant be neither. A bunch of questions on the left. I do question where had a question where you draw the line on the one hand and the parents right to have some autonomy over their childrens medical decision on the other hand. What about the areas where maybe if you it doesnt want her kids medicated for adhd or Something Like that where is it that the states right step in and say you must make that decision on behalf of your child and where is the line supposed to be drawn . I took the easy way out such as antibiotics and medicines for epilepsy, influence for diabetes theres probably one or five deaths a year from the religiousbased. Thats the tip of a much bigger iceberg. Not everybody dies from asthma or epilepsy. Theres probably a lot of suffering underneath the tip. But i understand your point. A number of people have made that point. It struck me that rand paul said something after the epidemic. He said that the government doesnt own your children, thats actually not true. The dont own your children no matter when you were growing up your parents didnt own you. They have some responsibility. And if they neglect that responsibly by letting you die or suffer needlessly and then they may lose you. I think thats fair. I am not a lawyer that the state does have a right to step in if they think that children are being treated hardly. Right now there are two major churches in the city that you know and they did a series infection they want to be treated with much, you know that. And we wait for something horrible to happen and then we scandalize for example dot they are the tip of a much bigger iceberg. Another question in the middle. As a whole care provider focused on harm reduction, when you are forced to having the conversation, what if you found the most productive way to go about that . The nothing thats why it is a legislative fix. Rita went to oregon and changed the law. They explained to the group if you are found to have medically neglected your child to the point that they suffer badly you will lose her children and go to jail and they changed and now they go to doctors. Make no mistake about it it just legislative fix. I just dont think that it works. I would be more open to arguments from a christian minister than secular. Having said that have you encountered any that consider it part of the ministry to recruit people away from these dangerous sectors . I got a lot of emails from ministers, pastors, reverend scott authors that said i agree with you. I think thats right. We are going to hammered out a statement that says just that so we are trying to make a difference. If the legislators would feel different if they didnt see themselves as protecting religion. It looks like it was transported from the 17th century into the 21st. So all these childrens grades and i think that what we know when we see children die in these sectors it is a typically iceberg because we often dont know what is going on in the communities. How far do you want a legislation to go . What he wanted to say . I dont want certain religious people speaking for me but i dont think that they are representing well. I want to remove all 50 states of what is the religious exception to child abuse and neglect i think that is a contradiction of terms. Therefore it should be eliminated. Lets go back to where we were california just recently changed its law with respect to the socalled religious exception command Governor Brown decided to make it abroad, not narrow despite the publicity that the vaccines and so forth. People can claim the exemption based on what they read on the internet based on anecdotal evidence. I find it shocking and why is there a lack of respect for the medicine that has piled up so substantially on the other side im not talking about the stuff thats in your book that the internetbased stuff for what is adverse to the evidence. In california richard is the democrat there and introduced the philosophical exemptions. But Governor Brown scaled that back making the legislation more toothless. Its not hard to understand why people push back. It gives me as many as 26 during that time to prevent diseases most people dont see that doing what most people dont understand. Its not surprising people are looking for reasons and you can find those reasons on the internet. You are allowed to. Vaccines are unique in the sense. They have to be held to a high standard. Why should i get a polio vaccine, why do i have to give my child a shot and i dont know if you saw this on pbs theres a thing called the vaccine war that was on a couple of nights ago. They had a woman that said i dont get it into the answer was because it still exists in the world. There are 20 other countries. One in 200 people that have puleo will have paralysis. The rest of asymptomatic disease. Thats why its hard to control this because the quarantine didnt work. Waiting for the people that are shutting puleo walk into the airport or lax every year thanks yes. If you have enough People Choose not to get the vaccine than it can come back. Measles is the canary in the coal mine for vaccines because its an excellent vaccine. We eliminated it is a highly contagious disease, so whenever theres any sort of an erosion measles is the first one. I hope that we will pay attention. You begin your presentation in this question of how they can make the choice that endangers their children. Listening to what you said im thinking about the nature of the bbc itself and that is people can say i believe in x. Or i dont bb and ask that many of them are in a state where that life is an experiment to enrich that belief and a spire to that belief. It seems to me that one of the pitfalls of the people that deny their children the right to have a vaccine or blood transfusion is that when the situation arises, the child is afflicted they may regard this as this is my chance to prove to god that i am in fact a belief or even if it costs my childs life. Is this what you want to prove to yourself d. Want to use your child for that purpose. I think that its very sad. And what can happen is that the parent is a member of the congregation. That is a good point. Again, we sort of try to insert the season as a mechanism. This is the hardest question to ask how could you choose not to treat your child knowing this . They always said the same thing. I was praying as hard as i could. Thats because i did care. That was in their mind treatment come and i dont know how you would reason away from that other than to not allow it. I have time for a few more questions one in the front row right here and then there is a cd in the back in the middle. I cant stop thinking about the example that gave earlier about if your is child dies the parents raised the second child and if the second one dies they go to jail. I cant quite understand how they would arrive at that decision and i wonder if that is an example of what you said between faith and delusion if it happens once its safe that if its faith but if it happens twice its delusion . Smack the lawmakers were the parents . Its just such a bizarre decision to make. When they would choose to suck out the blood, brooklyn and lakeland new jersey, these are thousands and thousands of these procedures formed every year its common. So what did new york city to . They said heres what you have to do. You have to have them sign a consent form, you have to have an educational pamphlet. That was at least a step although that are supposed to outlaw so what happened is they took a step back and you dont have to sign the consent form or give educational material that you have to do is if you are shown to the simplex and you are not allowed to do another similar procedure again. Its the same thing for the first history. I recently saw a documentary that focused on a family that had a good life together and they had two children and the boy was a very disturbed child and i dont know about other religions and we dont know what goes on but they have a systematic system of the indoctrination of scientology. This woman was a member for many years and when her son became a paranoid schizophrenic, she did everything. She exercised the utmost patience but she wouldnt let him take psych psychiatric meds. So with just shows you these things. Its a sad thing when life was being threatened. One thing in terms of how people can be indoctrinated strictly and we will close with this. This all happened at the Hershey Medical Center it was a person within 18 years of age. She got up in front of them and is now married, 21yearsold and well spoken and said im alive because my doctors gave me the blood transfusion that i now know that it wont be mine so they would much rather that you hadnt given a blood transfusion. Thank you for coming this evening. [applause] [inaudible conversations]
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