Back after vietnam. It was a big battle on campuses what do we do. After 9 11 student would have appropriate military presence. Military conflict with the civil rights which is a proper agenda. So groups organized to bring it back and after congress and the president did away with dont ask, dont tell which was a policy that marginalize gays in the military, came back in the ivy league. Host whats the negative effect of not having rotc on a College Campus . Guest it limits the intellectual diversity of the university, foreign policy, military policy are important parts of national life. Sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. Look at the war in iraq, very controversial but it is an important part of national policy, always has been. It should have a presence on campus. Also the book has really two things. One is the intellectual diversity of universities. What is what people been writing about in recent years over the split between the Civil Society and the military. 1 or less of our country are paying the price of military duty in the war against terrorism. Most people dont really understand whats going on. Many people that are in more elite aspects of society wouldnt want their children going to the military, for example. Theres a real split. That represents a civic scandal because we are asking a small percentage of people to do this hard work for us where we just want to go by our daily life. Theres a split between the military and Civil Society. I talk about it a bit in the book and my thought was that have the appropriate military presence on campus regulate by the rules of university we do want important vehicle for bridging that gap. So that appropriate military presence on campus would be good for diversity. Went to broaden the universitys mind, and it might be one way to try to remedy to some extent the capital and military and Civil Society more broadly. Host care of university of wisconsin, i drove by the rotc office. Very prominent writer on university avenue. Guest at the naval one. With all three branches. Enabled, the marines and the air force as a black cab rental, the big football stadium which is very prominent. The only right the only one is further out of. What kind of protest were held here at the university . What kind of connections did the university have to the war itself . Guest it was both. I will start with the protests which were prominent. Madison was possibly the most radical Antiwar Movement in the country though thats kind of hard is it because so were the others. We were certainly one of them. We had a bombing in 1970, famous bombing at sterling home. I happened to be at Summer School here. I went to another school of these. I went to cornell but i was here visiting my future wife. One class of Summer School. We heard about the bombing. There was an Army Research Math Research center, a very prominent physicist who unfairly i dont think was involved in the research and so i. T. Was part of a complex, late at night, for individuals directly antiwar drove up with a huge truck of fertilizer. They did make some attempt to clear the place out ahead of time with a phone call but these were very dangerous things. Word never got to this man and he was killed, family man, very high up in research. We had a campus bombing that led to a death in 1970. That was where the Antiwar Movement had to cool its teeth e abatement of a stupor still pretty radical after that. Also there were some fire rings, some attempted arsons of some of the rotc headquarters here like there were elsewhere. In kent state in 1970 it was a firebombing of a i think the army rotc the lead to all those protests that led to the shooting. All that stuff is going on here. This was one of the most radical areas in the country when it came to student protests. Host by the university, did it have a connection with the Defense Department with research . Guest yes. In terms of that particular or position, host of the research was for the pentagon. We have social science programs doing research for the pentagon. There was a young scholar, ph. D student, got his dissertation done and now is teaching over at macfarlane or nearby has a book out about the 1960s and madison, and be sort of military research, which they call it, the Cold War University model applied to medicine. Theres a fair amount of that going on. We were not doing some of the high level Technical Work like, for example, universities like the columbia were doing, on the bombs and things like that. It was pretty substantial. We were part of the cold war militaryindustrial complex absolutely. Host you talk about one of the themes of the book arms and the university being intolerance on campus. Is there a political correctne correctness . Hasnt always been there . Guest it somewhat part of the dna of a place like this because the school is not out of the progressive tradition. It was founded in 1855. Know, 1849. But we became really prominent later in 19 century, early 20th century is one of the primary examples of progressive kind of new university that will take advantage of the world and act that was passed during the civil war of abraham lincoln. We were the first school when rotc was considered mandatory for four years. We went to court and we cut it back. We were the first school that did that. So madison sort of has that tradition which is part of the beginning of the place and its one of the things that attracted me here, although i dont tend to agree with augusta. I found his place as reportage, it gives it a real life. Coming here was an exciting thing for me. I love this place. I also would like to see more intellectual diversity because then it would be even better. Then you would have more debates and more discussion. Sometimes when you have more of a liberal orthodoxy certain things are taken for granted and certain ideas are dismissed, and thats not a good education. Plus i think that we need a military. We need to have knowledge about it. Having insufficient knowledge of military can lead to two related but different problems. What is it can make, Richard James fallows, the editor of atlanta put a long story on this a few months ago, that politicians and the public tend to be too uncritical of the military because they put it up on this pedestal and they dont know enough about it. So they let it, they did it too much of a pass. The other extreme is not respecting the military and the hard work that does and so dismissing it as if you are somewhat superior, let them get their hands dirty and we will set back in our chairs and look down on them. I consider that just and antidemocratic attitude. Host politically, that disconnect as well, that could have an effect, get it transferred it can. There are fewer people in the military that are now serving its members of congress than any time in our history. A few of them come back, joni ernst ohio and a few others, but intel recent times representation by veterans in congress was at an all time low pretty much. That can lead to policies that are not wise. We dont have the military experience to put the policies and the right kind of context. Host what do you teach at the university of wisconsin . Guest im in Political Science. Im an affiliate professor of law and journalism. Certainly the three things that people get mad at, lawyers, journalists and politicians. Polisci is my major area and to teach partner in an area of law and politics to pass law, a political aspect or a government aspect. Constitutional law, government law, administrative law, regulation, law politics and society. A lot of Civil Liberties that. Criminal law and justice, and i pride myself on having started a First Amendment class here which it did help our but to educate the campus on First Amendment issues so they can make more informed judgment. Got a lot of them in recent decades. We also give seminars on privacy, equality and one on foreign policy, National Security and the law. Host would arms in university in a sense, could fall into a First Amendment transferred i sort of put into context. I looked at it as a way of providing the kind of Company Called in the book productive friction. Because military thinking is different from that of everyday life. Its more command oriented. People have to deal with violence as part of their profession. Sort of like police in that respect. Even more so. Its a different kind of attorney. It brings a different mindset to campus and especially given conflicts over were, like the vietnam war, the iraq war. They would bring a perspective that is sometimes different from or supplements about that sort of the normal campus mind. It challenges the campus mind. Freedom of speech principles. In the book we talk about jon stewart and other free speech there is vibrant about before, as supporting the idea that an appropriate military presence would actually enhance the intellectual environment of the campus. We found some empirical validation for the base our surveys which are pretty much introductory surveys. Host with that First Amendment class, how can you insight a real argument or a new controversy . Was a topic that incites . Guest we do flagburning. We do pornography. We do hate speech. Wind is a protected them when does it become a threat and not protected . Its controversial issues. One case we teach is our universities allowed to require students to find other student groups they may not like lex it raises the question called compelled association. That case went all the way to the u. S. Supreme court. Also the classic takes place in the context of university that according to the president of fire, leading academic free speech protecting group in the country, a foundation for individual rights in education with whom we have a lot of links, they claim, ahead of it, a wonderful article on the importance of challenging peoples ideas as part of intellectual and moral growth. It came out about two months ago. Craig says a more National Controversial free speech type conflicts at the university of wisconsin madison than any other school in the country in the last 27 years. Ive been very involved in almost all of those. Sort of campus activists. Ive written about it and to bring them into my First Amendment class. My motive was, when these cases arose, students would have the proper information about the principles and doctrines of law so they could make educated responses and evaluations of what was going on, rather than just say that person shouldnt say that, thats bad, Something Like that. So its been really fun. Host donald downs, professor. Of Political Science at university of wisconsin. Coauthor of arms and the university military presence and the Civic Education of nonmilitary students. Thank you for your time today on booktv. When i tune into on the weekends usually its authors sharing the new releases. Watching the nonfiction authors on booktv is the best television for serious readers. They can have a longer conversation and delve into their subjects. Booktv weekend. They bring you author after author after author of fascinating people. I love booktv and i make cspan fan. On sunday march 6, booktv is live with author and journalist jane mayer on in depth, or live monthly callin show. Jane mayer is a staff writer for the new yorker which he reports on government secrecy, the role of money in politics and u. S. Counterterrorism policy. In the most recent book dark money she reports on the political and economic underpinnings of the conservative movement with a focus on charles and david koch. Or other titles include strange justice in which examines the Sexual Harassment allegations against Justice Clarence thomas during his confirmation hearings. And landslide which looks at internal dissension within the Reagan Administration during the last four years of his presidency. In 2008 jane mayer appeared on booktvs after Words Program to discuss her book the dark side. Start at the very beginning right after 9 11, the lawyers pretty much laid the foundation for a program of coercive interrogation. They did so first, the first thing that happened is that president can actually the bushes from Vice President cheney, decide to get rid of the geneva conventions are the rules and uphold the standards have to treat prisoners of war. When they get rid of the rules, the rules of war and to also declare that the detainees are not criminals, which gets rid of the criminal code, they are basically putting detainees in a legal limbo with the make up the rules as they go along. Jane mayer live on booktvs in depth sunday march 6 noon until 3 p. M. Eastern. You are watching booktv on cspan2. This weekend we are in anaheim, california, with the help of our local cable partner time warner. Next, oc weekly editor Gustavo Arellano author of the nine talks but some of the stereotypes he has witnessed as a latino american. Spring the idea for ask a mexican actually came from an editor at the oc weekly at the time. He would always ask me questions about mexicans because i was only likely to obstetric i was the only person of color on some fundamental. I would always answer them silly stuff like what does this word mean in spanish was like a mexican like burritos and tacos . I would give a man so. Theres a lot of ignorant people about mexicans have questions and we should make fun of them so why dont we do a column called ask a mexica
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