He is the head of community and content for site wire and writes a weekly column for roll call. Amy is a White White House correspondent in washington per chi covered Hillary Clinton during the campaign and will cover the trump administration. They have written the biography hrc. They bring us their new book shattered. Inside Hillary Clintons doomed campaign. Through deep access, jonathan and amy have reconstructed the opportunities missed and the hidden thorns that turned a winnable contest into a devastating loss. Although the Clinton Campaign was widely covered and many autopsies have been conducted in the last months. The blowbyblow details and observations made here are nothing less than devastating. Sure to dismay everyone who cares about the outcome and consequences of the election. Please join me in welcoming jonathan and amy. [applause] good evening. Thank you for coming. There is my family waving over there. They must have been drinking. They are laughing like they were. I think what we will do is read a little bit of one of the early chapter, Chapter Seven and we will talk about what the process was and that we will take questions. Do you want to start, amy . Sure. We will read a little part of Chapter Seven which, its a chapter that centers around iowa. It is called iowa certain we were going to lose. Bill clinton was pissed off. He hollered at john podesta large enough to be heard through the walls. He laid claims to on the tenth floor of the savory hotel in downtown iowa. It was the god damn pendants he was watching on tv. They were getting it all wrong again as a result of the Iowa Caucuses trickled in. Hillary was leading but it would be tight. Omg walt blitzer said on cnn. It doesnt get closer than that. That assessment invited parallel to her 2008 loss to barack obama. It was, in bills view, an absurd comparison or that had been a threeway weigh race and she was likely to come out the winner on this night, not the thirdplace finisher. Deja vu was a hard storyline to resist. The outcome tonight ensures this race will go on for months and months on the democratic side they reported from sanders headquarters. The perception all night had been hillary was such a prohibitive front runner heading into the democratic nomination that she should have cleaned up easily. Bill had a much different perspective. Iowa had never been clinton country and hillary had increased her share of the caucus return from under 30 in 2008 up to 50 in 2016. Plus, unlike obama, bernie was tailormade for iowa. The state state is overwhelmingly white with colleges and workingclass cities. Even if bernie managed to eke out a victory, that was hillary showing strength, not weakness. Why couldnt they see the difference but on one level it was another of bills routine fits about television personality. He cursed tim russerts name after they declared obama the winner of the primary in may of that year. It was another sign of his inability to tamp down his emotions at pivotal moments of his wifes career. Earlier that day he went on a walk with his aides and he played ohio, a combination of card games. He was a protective husband and a concerned democrat and now he was shouting eight years of pent up frustration at his longtime friend and advisor. Hillarys anxiety he found the man he was looking for matt paul. Balding, spectacle and in his mid 40s, he left his job as communication director for tom bill fleck to run hillarys campaign. Having served on Howard Dean Campaign in iowa and of former agent for the senators, he knew the states electorate as well as anyone. He had a quick and pointed not. You go and deal with bill. Paul gathered himself and walked in to find the former president sitting in the weathered chair. L was wearing a suit and pair of leather gloves. His arms were crossed. Even if the yelling having been audible through the walls of the hotel, it was clear he was in a foul mood. His eyes were fixed on paul. If if theres ever a time to make sure i know my ship, this is it. Bill fired questions at him. What still outstanding in polk county. What what about Johnson County . About cedar rapids . Paul walked bill through the states and where results hadnt been reported county by county. Slowly his anger subsided. Even if his anxiety didnt. Hillary had gotten out to a lead consistent with where her team thought she would be heading into caucus night. She was up a handful of points. Sanders was slowly closing in on her. After paul briefed bill, the men repeated their conversation in a room where hillarys team was assessing the situation. Even in front of the others, billboard down on paul. One person noted a market shift with his personality. Usually when you are with him, he is a story teller. On this this night he was just an information gatherer. He wanted to know what the staff didnt know and why they didnt know it. Its harder to figure out whos winning a caucus state, particularly in iowa because results are reported as the number of state delegate numbers that caucus locations for the numbers can come in as very small fractions. Over and over, paul gave updates to the former president or more often reports that werent meaningful updates. He remained rosie about hillary pulling it out. They felt it was important which caucus sites remained unreported in polk county. If they were in the core of des moines, hillary was crude. If crude. If they were outside the city, she would win. John looked at the state numbers and got a bad feeling. This is not Getting Better he said this is going to keep going down. He could overtake us. Let me say, we are really happy to have cspan here. We really like to thank barnes noble for hosting us. This boat book showed up as number one we want to thank our publisher over there and many other people who helped make this book possible. We we would be remiss in not mentioning them. They stand along the wall and cheer us on and are responsible for what appears in the book. What we thought might be interesting, we talked a little bit to each other, interviewed each other and take some of your questions. I think this is fun because john and i have worked together for two books and five years. I think we still dont really, i have an idea of john johns favorite moment and the inner workings, but i kind of dont so i figured wed kick it up this way and let you chime in as well. Lets start off by talking about your favorite moment of the boo book. There was an interesting thing that happened on election night, you you might have had a similar experience to us which is that we were expecting Hillary Clinton to be the next president of the united states. I assume most of you are not well into writing a book about the selection. One of the first things we discussed in the immediate aftermath of the election, i think there are a lot of people trying to get adjusted to the surprise of the election, of course the transition. For us we sort of had to make an assessment of what we had to go after from the preelection period, from the pregeneral. , and what were the things we really need to focus in on at the end of the campaign in a different way than we had before. We we had a lot of reporting from before the election but the last month or two, we hadnt had a chance to talk to folks on the campaign because they really shut down around the election. Nobody wanted any leaks out. We have to do only reporting for the last month of the campaign and go back and get some things from earlier. One of the things we made a decision on early on was we thought it would be a tremendous failure if we did not get a ticktock of election night, what was going on behind the scene in the Clinton Campaign. My favorite part of the book and what i feel most invested in was the effort we went to to really talk to a lot of people about what was going on. We have a three to four location ticktock with what Hillary Clinton and her team members were at. Some people were really crunching numbers and talk to people out in the state where they were all working. The brooklyn headquarters had people there as well and of course the Victory Party or planned Victory Party location. We spent a tremendous amount of time trying to piece together what happened, trying to get the time element. There are a lot of things in the book have that have not appeared anywhere else. We were afraid someone else would report it that Hillary Clinton was urged to concede before she did on election night. There is is a lot more about story, what was going on , what the emotions were, what the debates were among her staff and family. For me, thats the part i was most proud of that we got all this reporting that no one else did about this incredibly shocking moment for the country and the clinton people and the country as well. What is your favorite part of the book. That obviously, because it took a lot of work. If you dont mind, every authors favorite part is the byline so this is really the second favorite part. It was great, i think everyone wanted to know what was going on inside that room so i would have to agree with you. We also wanted to know the real story, obviously they kept trying to portray a Joyful Campaign and we kept seeing signs that i wasnt such a Joyful Campaign. John and i made it a mission to get the real story from people. Initially people said its great, its going well and slowly we started hearing the real story and we were interviewing a source at the brooklyn headquarters and a source told us at the very tail end of the interview, yes, there was one moment right after michigan, she was really pissed off but i cant really tell you anymore. You have to talk to other people who were in the room for that. I was so angry, i was like come on, tell us more about what happened here. Talk to some other people in the room. I got them to tell us who was in the room and he gave us these names. We tried to make it a mission in every interview after that to find out what exactly went down in that moment. Finally we circled back months later. Nine months later. Separately, we could have had children in that time. [laughter] finally, this one source said come on, we want to know what happened here, we have bits and pieces of what happened, this is postelection. I think it mightve been after christmas. Finally a source tells us what happened and basically it resulted in us finding out that she was really frustrated by what had happened in michigan during the primary. She was angry at her aides, she was telling them our message isnt resonating, whats happening. These are the moments that make this book what it is. Its a real book about what happened, told through the people inside the campaign. I think that kind of moment shines in this book and this is what we aimed to do. Your turn, truth or dare. I want to know what you think is the hardest part of reporting up this book. I think getting people in clintons orbit to talk about anything is possible, and if i was to chalk up my proudest accomplishments as a reporter, its like breaking into the circle and getting people to tell us stuff because this is, especially in this campaign, a group that was not leaking a lot, not talking a lot and afraid of repercussions of having leaks come back on them. We write about that she was obsessed after 2008 with not having leaks. She believed the leaks from her campaign had really hurt her in 2008, rather than seeing them as symptoms of dysfunction or accepting that there were people who didnt feel their grievances were being aired effectively, turning to the outside, she looked at the leaks as something that was plaguing her campaigns and one of the reasons she lost. This time around, a lot of people thought they would be working in administration. They thought they would be working in the white house. There was was a lot of incentive not to bring problems, not to air them externally or internally. The hardest part was getting people to talk and it really was unlocking person by person, detail by detail, going back to the same people over and over again. It was a reminder of the thing that reporters really know in their hearts which if you want to get something good you have to work at it and work at it. Proud that we were able to bring to light so many things that people didnt know, just in terms of the basic story. You can agree with conclusions or disagree and say i dont think their analysis is right or i wish theyd have more about that but at the end of the day there is a ton of new reporting. Im so proud of that. Its hard work for us and i know my family sacrificed for it and your family sacrificed for it. I want to know from you what your biggest fear is now that its out because we have been sitting on this finished product for a few weeks waiting for its come out so just to read you into the experience of an author, i think we can say this, i hope our publishers dont get mad, we heard there was likely going to be a review on friday and it came out before we expected it to and it was very good. For weeks you sit around with a finished product that no one else has read. You dont know if anyone will like it. You dont know if it will sell. It was just as hard to write no matter if those things went well or poorly. Now that its out and people get to look at it, the finished product, what is your fear . So many fears. I want people to understand that we gotten some feedback on twitter and other social media that we are biased reporters or that we went into this trying, we shoot shoot from the hip, we are reporters, we wrote some thought was a largely sympathetic book the first time around. This was basically what we saw him what we heard from everyone in the campaign. My big fear is that this will be misinterpreted, and as we explain in the introduction, we actually went about reporting this, we thought she was going to win, and our reporting changed. The direction didnt even really changed because we had seen signs of problems throughout the campaign, but she lost, we had to quickly come to interview people and come to conclusions about what happened and do that right after the election in january. That was a quick turnaround. I kind of want them to understand that and i disclaimer that i dont vote because i feel like my reporting is my Public Service and i dont take sides. I want people to judge this fairly and read it before they judge it. We had picked up on a lot of problems in the campaign and we picked up on some of the misery and Hillary Clinton feeling that she didnt have a handle on the campaign and she would say i dont understand whats happening with my campaign. We saw this as a problem in the democratic primary and the general election. [inaudible] there was something that Bernie Sanders and donald trump are tapping into that she had trouble understanding. Part of it was her general belief there was dysfunction on the campaign but it was weird to us because the polling said she would win. This book makes it sound like she is going to lose. I have trouble understanding because it looks like she will win and you guys think she is going to win, but this book feels like something where she is going to lose. We were going to have to figure that out. I said said look, we are reporters, this is whats going on and it may be that these are forward projections of what might be difficult for an administration, were struggling with that and then on election day she lost. We had seen all these signs and obviously was close enough that the election could have gone either way. Any number of things could have tipped it one way or another. We had seen all these signs and not necessarily, we trust our gut in terms of doing the reporting and i think its why we could produce this fairly quickly after the election because we didnt have to pull up a lot of roots and reformulate assumptions because we just laid out what the reporting was. Lets do one more quick question. What is your favorite quote from the book . Thats rough. My favorite quote from the book, do you mean like what somebody else said or something we wrote that we think is so awesome. The most powerful quote. Im sorry. You stole mine. Im sorry, yes, not only do i apologize for taking the longer time but my favorite quote was mr. President , im sorry. I can give you another one. Actually i dont want to give another one. People should have to get to that. Anyway, we will open it up to questions because we want to hear from you all. I would like to know if you have any theories as to why former Vice President biden didnt run and how much influence do you feel president obama had as far as who could challenge Hillary Clinton and lastly, why do you think president obama didnt pardon Hillary Clinton or would have that made a difference. Ill take the first question. Joe biden, lets go there first. If you talk to sources, and we did about why he didnt run, it was bad timing for him. He needed to make a decision pretty quickly. His son had died tragically a few months earlier. He wanted to make a decision over the summer, the clock was ticking, his donors kept calling him wondering what was taking so long. He was feeling the weight of that moment and the pressure and fall crept in and he realized he had to make a decision. Meanwhile, secretary clinton was boxing him in and doing things that didnt allow him to do what he needed to do. She had already taken many of the donors, time had run out, and he was unhappy, and we report that in the book. he said she was playing ugly. in terms of the pardon, could you get to the parted . Ill just take the last two. In terms of president obama, if you wanted to remain neutral but everyone knew, everybody knew, that he preferred secretary clinton which prevented a lot of Democratic Candidates for getting in or at least prevented candidates from thinking about getting in. Why would you run against the city president s preferred candidate who already has these superdelegates lined up . When people talk about her skills as a candidate, one skill is candidate was clearing the field. She didnt get Bernie Sanders not to run but there were a lot of other democrats who might have run for president who do not. The democratic bench is pretty thin right now. In part, because of as far as the parting goes, no reason to pardon her. He wouldnt recommend a prosecution. He said a lot of other things but he said he wouldnt recommend a prosecution. Donald trump, i dont think im a will in time to imprison his successor know how much someone likes doesnt like what he does. Were not at that point right now. Theres no reason to show a pardon and had he done so, it wouldve been a stained both on the present and on clinton. [inaudible] and her advisers to delete the socalled personal emails and any consideration to the fact that theres the potential backlash of being a coverup of some type . This is a question in case in here, why she would delete the personal emails, those that were deemed personal from her private server and whether there was fear of backlash. There was backlash in terms of people saying she was trying to hide something. The personal emails belonged to her, if they are in fact, personal nature. There was a process that was put together with her lawyers and aides who are lawyers looked through these emails and determined what was a work email and a personal email. I think, having looked at her work email and having seen all of the information that was classified that ended up in her work email that was on the private server, it seems pre clear that they didnt sit around going, this could be a problem, lets just delete it. If they had done it, we would have seen all the classified information. They are not stupid. They may have made a bad decision, that judgment, in fact , i think it was an epically poor decision to set up a private server. One probably motivated by the desire to not have her files out there, opened in the freedom of information act while she was running for president. That worked out well for her as you all know. In terms of the personal nature of emails, those belong to her. They dont belong to anybody else. There shouldnt be a problem with that as long as theyre making a good decision about it, the right decision about whats personal and not. Getting what you know now through your reporting, if you had to pick one, would you say that the Clinton Campaign lost or the tramp can wane campaign one . Both. I think its really complicated and we been getting that question a lot in the last few days. I think as john and i report in this book, and we do so conclusively, it wasnt just russia or komi, it was a combination of factors. Im not saying that for everyone here who thanks russia and komi was the definitive factor. Im not saying it wasnt but it was a contributor for sure. There were other factors including the fact that she didnt have a message from the beginning of her campaign. We detail in this book, during her lunch speech she had more than a dozen advisors working with her to write this thing, none of them understood the center of gravity of this message. They didnt understand where it was going. She brought in advisors from president obama, his chief each reader to help write it. He threw his hands up before the process was over and said i cant do this anymore because the speech is going nowhere, essentially. The message was a huge problem for her. There was in fighting, at the top levels of the campaign. Her two top advisors, john podesta and robbie mc didnt care for each other so much, we detail this in the book. Thats a euphemistic way of putting it. Theres one passage we have in the book where there at a senior retreat for senior members of the campaign and theyre basically telling each other how they feel about each other and their using words like passiveaggressive. Hillary clinton stopped talking to some of her top advisors. These are all problems that were swept under the rug, they werent fully addressed. She wanted people to think that it was a drama Free Campaign based on 2008 and the headlines that come out in 2008 that there were lots of inviting but, you know, they did a good job keeping it under wraps. It was a problem for her. There was an image problem, likability problem, people didnt trust her. These are all factors. When you talk to people now, john and i talk to people, someone tonight who said i supported her but kind of unwillingly. I think that spoke to a lot of people. I think a lot of people acknowledge that. I have a competitor for one of the best quotes from the book , the part where youre saying, one of her topics said i would have had a reason for running or i went have run. The argument was essentially that even her aides didnt know what the rationale was. They were unable to look at what she was saying and say here is her vision for the country rather than her vision of power. Shed been running for president for ten years, at least. An honest assessment is that it was very easy to see what Donald Trumps messes was. Whether you like it or not. Whether he was being honest at the moment or not. You could tell what he wanted to do. He had a nationalistic message, isolationist measured, antiimmigrant message but there was one to three and these are his priorities. This is what he wants to do with his power. With her there was an embrace of so many things and as some of them put, people said to us, if youre for everything then youre not for anything. That was a harder message to gary because it wasnt very focused even after all these years. Someone told on that point , there was a wall in her brooklyn headquarters that had little postit notes and it said hillary is four and the wall was covered with various ideas and one of our sources pointed to that wall and said, basically, what john said, if youre for everything then youre not for anything. You talked about brooklyn, podesta and trump had a collie come in late in the game and run circles around them, who was making decisions in brooklyn and saying go to arizona a week before the election who was making decisions for the campaign . The first answer that question is your guess is as good as mine. [laughter] this was a problem. A lot of the junior and midlevel staffers were unable to get decisions when they were trying to sign off on something they couldnt get. In terms of if you want to look at the basic debate was that really mattered in terms of the strategy, field operation, daytoday analytics, mechanics of campaigning, mc believed heavily in campaign data, not only heavily but exclusively, he didnt look favorably upon those who looked at politics as an art. The data said it was more expensive, less efficient to try to get people who disagreed with her to vote for her than it was to get people who agreed with her to show up. This is true by the way. Anybody will tell you that that its true. Typically, they dont abandon persuasion efforts entirely. This campaign increasingly abandoned persuasion efforts. As they abandon persuasion efforts they became more and more focused on the base and the alienated it look like the alienated some of the people who might have been persuadable at one point. Particular, working class whites this is a process from the primary where she was so focused on turning out with good reason, africanamerican and hispanic hispanic voters to win the nomination. You need to get to the nomination, you need to the delegates and her path was to focus heavily on urban areas and her africanamerican, latinos. So she goes to a city and works on turning out black voters and hispanic voters and doesnt go to the nearby suburbs or doesnt talk in ways that are trying to reach out to the voters shes having trouble with. They become alienated. You see that process in particular in overtime. Theres no way to know what would happen had they done things differently. One of the motives of this book is there was a big battle over the alliance on data versus bill clinton coming in from the field and saying, theyre not finer message, we need to spend more time with them and we need to frame it this way. Hed say that was quaint. Youre great, mr. President but i dont want to send you out to a rural area. I want to send you to a city where you can touch more people who are more likely to turn out. He was angry about it. A lot of the former president s aides were angry about it. They still are. They said he had a field, better feel for things than the data and analytics that they were reporting back to him. I think to this day, that angers the people around him. Both of you refer in passing to james comey, how significant do you think it was at the outcome of the election that the letter he sent to Congress Just before the election and even though they publicly downplayed it, what was the reaction to that inside of the campaign . Theres a saying in the campaign we cant have nice things. Every time something started to go well there was another shoe that dropped. There was a millipedes running around dropping shoes. We go through this background of that and i dont want to tell a full story here because i want to get a few more questions in but basically, they were shocked at what happened and trying to scramble to figure out why the fbi director had weighed in again and waited to say that he was reopening an investigation and essentially looking at a computer that belong to. [inaudible] and the campaign was like there cant be anything on there that we dont know about. They had everything. The press secretary actually traveling with her thought when asked about it thought that this reporter on the plane who was asking about these new revelations. Hey man, did you see the new thing from comey. Really funny dude. They never saw that coming. In terms of the factor in election. Its impossible to know exactly. I would point out that while director comay did unusual things thats a euphemism all of what he was doing relates back to that email server. If there somebody thanks that was a good decision on her part, both in terms of how you should behave with the public official or politically decision on her part, raise your hand. Right . That is selfinflicted damage and it may be unfair and whatnot but we look at that as part of the major own goal to borrow a sports race of this email server that came to light even worse untrained before she announced the campaign. Im a journalist with a newspaper from norway. Goat norway. I have norway relatives. Im pro norway. I have a question about your access to the candidates results how much did you talk to her during the campaign. And to what extent did you feel that her staff was being guided in one way or the other when it came to talking to you . You knew many of these people from before from your other book and they mustve known were writing this book and had some strategy in place to guide you in the direction they wanted you to go . Thats a very competent person. We dont talk about our sourcing at all. Its something we did on hrt but were not doing it for shattered but you can rest assured that we talk to everyone from the highest levels on down. This is a very inside the campaign kind of book. If you want to know what outsiders are thinking, this is not the book for you. I thought you were going to say, we dont talk to the press. The second part of your question is also complicated because as john mentioned earlier, there are tough nut to crack, the clinton world. We did this two times, both times we felt it was, correct me if im wrong, the second time was just as hard as the first, perhaps harder. She was running a campaign and they were worried about what we were going to put out. We also had the jobs we were doing at the same time. It wasnt as easy as it may sound because we did hrt, its not like they opened the sun untrained floodgates on this book, quite the opposite. We had to work hard. We had to reintroduce ourselves to clinton world in some sense. I used to joke with john they act like they dont know us and we been working with these people for years. One of the nice things about the deleted emails from the staffers that we were able to see somebody being told not to talk to us because we presumable big reason, yet you dont have to talk to them. People that have spoken to us before were told be given red lights, dont talk to them is essentially, i will say this. Theres a mix of that and overtime some people talk to us and some people didnt. Someone asked for permission and got it and others didnt ask for permission and talk to us anyway we joke about we want to write a book about someone whos a lot more easily accessible because this world is not that. Like, queen elizabeth. Im a journalist from new york and your terrific on channel five this morning. Thank you, sir be back. On the third im a third of the way into the book and hillary is decisive, very bad judgment, not good at politics and she doesnt stand for anything. You guys have a frontrow seat forgetting for a moment was the president now, did you learn anything that told you whether she would be a good president . All the things so far that she was doing in pain which he had been a good president in your opinion . Someone else is applauding. Is that what you wanted to ask to . [inaudible] the one thing we learned from hrt, our first book, shes a policy wonk. This is her thing. She knows how to govern more than she knows how to be a candidate, i think. Shes not the best candidate. She admitted that several times during the campaign. Shes not bill. She said shes not president obama, either. Shes not even george w. Bush who people say is quite charming. Amie works hard and cousin with a few jokes and everyone files and laughs and we get to go home and they forget how hard shes worked to put stuff in. I feel for her on that level. When people talk about texas and the misogyny in the campaign, societally we have a lot of thad unfairly and know your job as a candidate is to win over people whatever their biases are and thats a failure. I didnt mean to cut you off but i had a point that was solid. Its tricky. Shes a terrible candidate and she doesnt know how to manage a campaign well. I do think she does on the worst untrained wellversed in policy. And arguably she won all three. She would be good in that sort of way. I think she would have a management problem for sure. Since 1991, four was the one who led the white house investigation against bill clinton. Theres been a 91 billiondollar industry against the clintons, specifically russia started the untrustworthy Clinton Campaign. I think, what do you think, because the press they were hardly ever asking who was the president. Donald trump. Did you just not want to say the word . Its still very painful. Im recovering. [laughter] they never asked him about his service, it went off water like a duck back. They grilled her left, right and center and ben gandhi was a phony thing. All these factors that you mentioned, also do contribute but there was very concerted effort where in the last days when comey put his thumb on the scales by bringing up this phony email thing, when he knew the russia gate, investigation was very serious with the top spies was a connection to these people was going on. My question is didnt all these factors. Towards her being very cagey and mismanaging and not having a specific message . In the end, her policies were not very well reported by the press. I think if you wanted to find the policies they were easy to find. You know, id be hesitant to look at a campaign and say, wow, theres a campaign against her and it was unfair that there was a campaign against her. When you talk about we talked about this before but when you talk about russia heres an example of something we knew. We knew that the russians had been trying to tamper with our elections. We knew they were behind the dmc tax. There was good reason to suspect they werent involved in the modesto tax. Hillary clinton made that case publicly and she did in debates. She said that trump was eight puppet of vladimir. The talks about the agencies who came in and said that russia was responsible for these attacks. In the country elected donald trump anyway. It is not as though we had no idea what was going on here. People didnt pay attention, and theyre angry now because they werent paying attention, that would be one thing. I dont think thats the case. I think that was baked into the decisions people were making. One fifth of Donald Trumps voters they thought he wasnt fit to be president and they voted for him anyway. When i look at that, it says to me, even though this is a very close race and one that could have changed on a little bit, it says to me that Hillary Clinton failed to win by a large margin that she could have. There were voters certainly available to her that she just couldnt nail down. With that, we have to move to the signing. Are there any final comments. We want to appreciate you for coming and the thoughtful discussion. We hope you enjoy our book. Thank you
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