Guest for me, too. Im such a big fan of your book as well. Im going to hold it up because its phenomenal. Host your wonderful. A i appreciate that but were going to talk about you today. Try to if we must thats fine. Host there will be overlap. We talked about the same things. We are two black women who are attorneys and the district of columbia, with given at least part of our careers to the criminal legal system, except at opposite sides of the table. You as a prosecutor and the as a defense attorney. I think this is a perfect opportunity for us to talk about your book, just pursuit a black prosecutors fight for fairness. So this is going to be great. I do want to waste any time. My guess is that you and i could talk for hours about that. Guest we are kindred spirits. Its a legal system aspired to be a Justice System for even though we came from different sides of the table are both at the table knowing that same concept. Host we will come back to that. Want to talk about what does ite mean to have a seat at the table as a black professional but before we get there i want to make sure all of the listeners how to foundation for what your book is about. First sentence of any book tells a lot about what this is going to be about and youre first sentence is indeed quite powerful and compelling you say the pursuit of justice creates injustice. And also very early in the book. You also said i thought the job and the job being your role in the United StatesAttorneys Office for the district of columbia prosecuting people for criminal offenses that occurred right here in the Nations Capital. And you said i thought the job would be an uncomplicated act of patriotism and that justice was what happened when a person was fairly tried and convicted for their crime. And so i thought that would be a great way to start. Can you tell us what do you mean by the pursuit of justice creates injustice . You know, im so glad were starting there and as youre right, its very intentional how you begin the book. I wanted people to be invited into this vicarious episodic experience understanding what i think is often counterintuitive people think about justice as you well know in this very binary way. They think about okay, you must mean a trial. Therell be a conviction or an acquittal and and then justice somehow is miraculously served. When we think about it in this notion of that binary way, we find ourselves in the cycle of thinking that the ends will justify the means and frankly. Its what happens in those means the in between the Collateral Damage that occurs and illustrate that the book the ways in which that concept of how can it be that you could create injustice by pursuing a conviction. I lead off the book talking about a very complicated notion where our immigration policy intersects with the law right the idea of being a nation of laws, but yet when i find out that a victim of a crime has an active deportation warrant, and im required because of the law to turn this person in and equate him with the person who is actually committed a crime again the idea of if i were just pursuing a conviction and that binary sense of how you pursue justice you would overlook the obvious unfairness the injustice of whats happening to someone who weve asked to report. A crime that we want to report these crimes that is in this unfortunate and horrible position of either. I report a crime, but i also face deportation or i dont report a crime and i invite further exploitation and victimization and here we are in a world where so often your moral compass can point one direction and the nation of laws and whats ordered another and what do you do with this chasm of what is right . And what is lawful what is required and what is just and so i was quite intentional even in the title a black prosecutors fight for fairness for that very reason and i think if we overlook the instances where injustice occurs in that pursuit of that binary objective, we really miss the nuance we miss the indignities and we miss what truly is required in a just system. I love that. I love that you went for the nuance right you talk about dignity. I talk about humanity right . Its really important. Im gonna come back to that story about manual. Around because i think thats such an important story the deportation story, but lets back it out a little bit and sort of tease it apart for the audience. So the i imagine or not even i imagine i know from you know, perfect experience and from your book that much of this complication that youre talking about in the pursuit of justice arises out of the meaning and the relevance of race in the criminal legal system. And so heres the thing right both of us have practiced represented clients or represented victims in the Nations Capital what most people do not realize is that how profound and how stark the Racial Disparities are in our court right . Virtually everyone whos written a book about the criminal legal system in washington dc says exactly what you say in your book i can count the number of white defendants on my hand. Right right. I can tell you that in 26 years of practice. I have had are white clients period and so its shocking 2016. Yes, not shocking given the experiences that well see. Thats right. I want to go and thats the idea first one. I dont even need all my fingers to count the number of white defendants. I ever saw right in the courthouse let alone the trials i was doing yes, and i remember sort of tongue and cheekingly and i was serious they didnt realize know me at this point one of my first days in the criminal courtroom when i had the stack of manila folders and all the matters. I was going to be handling that day and that sort of baptism by fire moment. I had that moment of turning to a colleague who was sort of training me that day and saying where all the white people and him responding on the bench coats in that moment. It was really that moment of you intellectually. I began in private practice and i was in the Civil Rights Division before becoming an ausa in dc. So my my views were policy based in many respects they were the idea of being presumed to fight on the right side. I had an intellectual approach and often ways as many lawyers and law students. About well, heres what happens in the law and youve got this esoteric notion of what the law is like and you understand intellectually disproportionate impact and disparate treatment and you know, the idea is of overrepresentation, but then you go into a criminal courtroom. And the discussions about well, it must be white officers. No, its black and brown officers bringing these people in as well the idea of well, hold on a second. Its always going to be about a different race of the victim and the defendant the alleged perpetrator and you see black and brown victims and yet the same conversations are happening about how you are perceived and Civil Rights Division. It was a foregone conclusion on who side i was on right it was black and brown people marginalized having the rights and friends as a prosecutor. It seemed to be a betrayal the idea. Well, how can you possibly be in the position where the stereotypical the man the white man would be given this disproportionality given this disparate impact and even though youre victims are overwhelmingly black and brown and it really disrupts this what i think should be a fallacy of that black and brown people are but supposed to occupy but one space within this criminal legal system, but it doesnt come with that a lot of and realizing well, if youre going to have a seat at this table, what are you going to do with the power there realizing that black and brown people do not have a monopoly on crime nor do we overrepresent in washington dc and yet in this quadrant system of the capital where a stone throw away right now right these band you see that a stone throw from the capitol are some of the seats of extraordinary ingestis and it plays out in courtrooms all across this city. Thats great. Why dont we dig there because i really want to get to this seat at the table. Right . So you have this powerful chapter in your book where you are sitting in the cafeteria, which i could totally see right sitting at the courthouse and a defense attorney a black defense attorney comes up sits down and begins to basically call you out right for being a black woman who is a prosecutor sending, you know, black men to jail and you she asks you so how can you do it and youre response is for justice and i fast as a defense attorney reading it at first i was like that wasnt satisfying to me as an answer, but since then ive seen you talk about it even more and continuing to read your book understanding that for you is very similar to what you just said that its not just what seat you occupy, but how you show up in that seat and so can you say more about that youve started to talk about it here but in very concrete ways, what does it mean on a daytoday level to show up as a black woman in those positions and let me just sort of add i i often get the question when i talk about criminal legal reform. People ask me. Well, would it make a difference if we just diversified all the state actors, you know judges prosecutors probation defense and i think thats an oversimplified answer. So i love this notion of its all about how you show up at the table. So what is that look like what are we to do . Well, first of all for the record people who read that chapter it was not you christine. I was having as a form of escapism right it was not you who approached me. So ill just make the record clear. However, i suppose he would have a very similar conversation albeit. Im sure a less combative one. I describing the chapter but really its about both women believing we had the proper seat at the table and wielding our power effectively, but we have to realize the imbalance of power within this system certainly the role of defense counsel as you well know is not only extraordinary. Its critical. Its required. Its so necessary and it should be revered but the decisions and choices you make are reactive to decisions and choices that have been already been made oftentimes by a prosecutor the decision to charge or not charge a case what charges to bring the evidence that theyre going to hand over if they abide by their ethical obligations to give you exculpatory information . A vet and have a healthy level of skepticism towards the officers who seem to be regurgitating scripts from the Supreme Court in a way you say really the door was a jar. It wasnt just open you gave chase. You didnt just run and there was a third of gesture in a waistband. Wow. This is taking exactly from a Supreme Court holding. Did you read that or what actually happened in this instance . How did you exactly smell the presence of narcotics within a crevice of a body as you walk by a fully clothed man interesting right these notions of what a prosecutors role is to be able to realize and i i didnt appreciate the scent that i do now, but i learned very quickly that when i would stand up and say laura coates on behalf of the people of the United States it necessarily included the defendant it included protecting their civil rights as well. Theyre fourth amendment, right . Theyre right to counsel affect the representation and to try to ensure that whatever plea decision they would render was not about the fact that they had the weight of the federal government again. That they were thinking i already had to pay for the presumption of innocence. I dont know that i can take much more. Im already in jail awaiting trial and so youre telling me even though im innocent the only recommend three years and im facing 10 to 12. So im gonna make make a cost benefit analysis here. Well the power that a prosecutor is wielding in those moments. All the things i just described require you not just to have a robotic approach to the application and enforcement of law but understanding who you are when you enter a room. And these battles of allegiance often come up and unexpected ways. I mean i like you dont have the luxury of putting on sociological blinders when i walk into a room or thinking to myself. Well, im going to compartmentalize here i am a black woman and here i am somebody who is a wife a mother a human being a proponent of civil rights, but i got to check all that at the door because im now a prosecutor and that just means you apply it robotically and one of the real irritations, ive always had and i know it sounds quite glimp, but with the stupid mascot at the department of justice this blindfolded woman as long as youre not seeing anything the scales of justice will just balance out just right . Yeah, and so when you ask about how you walk into a room and what you do when youre there take off the blindfold and see the world in the country for what it is because balance does not just all of a sudden coincidentally occur. It comes when you bring your entirety into that room and so much like in washington dc it a paraphrase the late Justice Ruth Bader ginsburg and tshirts. Im sure you see all over georgetown and all the universities its a womans place in the house and the senate and the oval office and everywhere power is supposed to be you need to have civil rights proponents in every facet of our ecosystem and we cannot be in a position where we think you can either be a civil rights proponent or a prosecutor. What does that say . Ultimately in the end, but youre right. I dont oversimplify in the way of as long as we have black and brown people there because what about officers who also abuse some power and theyre a great officers and theyre also those who believe the color blue and under the color of law will trump every other color. So we have to think about it holistically in terms of what people believe the role of a prosecutor is supposed to be and how we pursue justice. I love that. I love that. I wish i want all my law students to be listening and could youre giving a lesson on how to occupy this space, right . Yeah. Thats a way to say that right healthy skepticism protection of the rights even of the defendant right not showing up with an oversimplified perspective on what justice looks like, but its got to be a nuance and complicated analysis. So i love that. I hope all my students are listening, but its not easy. Its not easy right . Lets talk. Yeah, so if i cant lets press because i want to press you back on the the immigration the deportation case that you have right and it manual. Is that his name Manuel Manuel of course and what i found, you know, sort of fascinating about that story is you had a choice right you had a difficult choice you had to choose whether or not to notify youre supervisor whether or not to give him a little notice that he could he deported but you knew that if you told him he might leave you had a choice whether or not to call the martial whether or not to notify ice at all. And so you were forced to make this hard choice and there was a powerful quote you say that i always thought if confronted with a justification for civil disobedience i would act on my principles and not on a directive but i felt like at the end of the day that you did act on a directive and let me i really want to Say Something that i really liked about this book a lot which was you could have written this book in a way that made you out to be the hero right and i felt like with each and every story you revealed your vulnerabilities and there were even moments when i was reading and ive said to myself. Oh, i wish she had done something differently, but you were honest and you were transparent in this book, so i want to really appreciate that. This is one of those stories where at the end of the chapter. Were left with but you follow the directive right . So i wanted to hear you speak more about that. Like what was your thought process at the end of the day . How did you decide that indeed . I have no choice but to let my supervisors and the marshals know and then my second question is would you do it differently today . Well first why i appreciate you acknowledging that honesty and you know in the books that are written i think oftentimes there is a temptation to sell for grand eyes to answer the al bundy reference of how you were the star quarterback, and i know im dating myself. Im making a reference of mary the children right about using olympics one and that right but the idea here of i think if youre gonna speak truth to power you ought to actually tell the truth. Thats right. And the truth is that there were moments when i felt like a champion and moments when i felt like a coward moments where who i thought i would be in the moment was not who i was and and realizing that some of the choices that you speak of frankly are a lucery and yes just as we talk about in america all the time free speech right . They can say whatever. Want well, thats true, but they come with consequences. We cant just Say Something and not have accountability in many respects, but we still have this feeling of being able to do whatever you want and in that instance in in the book i talk about how in many respects. Yes. I could have made the choice to alert for somebody had an active essential warrant. The choice would have led to consequences that are being experience even in places like massachusetts right now. Were a judge alerted somebody and was indicted for having done. So the idea is of disparment as the consequence and certainly there were personal decisions that i made as a class benefit analysis in a sense of what would be the personal risk of doing this and i didnt think i would make those sort of calculus is in my mind. I thought in my mind thats when you snatch the degree off the wall and you walk out. Its where the Jetblue Airlines person of going down the inflated slide and say forget it. Im done with this and then in the moment you think about that and what that would mean and realizing of course, it wasnt as if it was hunger games where i pointed a prosecutor i invite ask for the opportunity to do so and what that meant was also abiding by the law as its currently written and being able to pursue justice when the constraints of that and so i hope when people read this book theyre not with the impression of well there were, you know, you can just do whatever you want. Its also if you find yourself saying there should have been an alternative there should have been a different mechanism. The law does not compute and align with what we know is the right thing. Thats where youve got the right fertile soil for reform and realizing that do we really want a system where when i was in private practice, i had personal clients as a prosecutor. Its the United States. Its society whos offended even for the socalled victimless crimes. Its the victim has a stance and has a position but we really defer only so much to what their position is and we think about deterring from the next victim and so in that balance if thats the case if we want to ensure people are reporting crimes in society. No longer is offended then why do we create the impossible scenario . What if this was a Sexual Assault victim not a car theft victim or a family of a homicide victim are they supposed to just have that same calculus because the law says this and thats where as much as we have a checks and balanced system. We are constrained in ways that are not practical in the pursuit of justice. Its not fair that somebody with an active deportation warrant should be good for staying in the country who hasnt much as needs and direction of a cough a cop suddenly is equated with somebody with a actual rep sheet a real one that you want to held accountable. And so, you know, i found myself even writing this book at times kristin thinking do i want to go there . Do i want to be so personal because on air obviously im talking about with the law is how it can be interpreted using my you know information as a form of activism and helping people to understand this system. But also i had to recognize that there were moments where by definition and complicit right . I mean by definition, you know full well when youre in a courtroom, what do they calling us prosecutors government government where that fungible to the point where i joke around sometimes i remember one day i was in court and i was getting ready to schedule a status conference or a trial and i said, oh, im sorry your honor that date doesnt work. Im actually due to give birth date. Its my due date and i remember the woman saying really the federal governments pregnant the whole government having a baby. Whos the father. Wow, this is shocking. Are we all going on maternity to sort of underscore the point of ice . Okay, youre honor i get it. I get it with that fungible. But because youre that fungible you are presumed that same monolith thats eating the moments. When what you believe is wrong the governments acting and that was very difficult and i it was difficult to be honest to some expect because i i know that it would perhaps change people. Option of me, but that doesnt matter because i want it to change your perception of how the system works and you know, my babies are seven and nine years old right now. One day i wont be the center of the universe and theyll see that im a human being and when they look at me that way i want to be able to look them in the eye and say heres who your mother was in a system. What she fought against and hopefully what will not be for you but heres what happened. Yeah, i have to say i appreciate the honesty. I think the honesty in the book gives it credibility right . And so if you want to be a voice for reform and activism in your current role as a legal analyst for cnn, youve got to come and show up with honesty and credibility. So i really really appreciate that. I also the other thing that struck me in listening to you is i i almost see like puppets like theres somebody higher big forehead and a big mouth you see how to duty x papa. I recognize that my fathers a wonderful dentist. Thats probably the teeth, but youre good. I actually see this like put your hanging over you. Okay, you know but like pulling strings right and pulling the strings of black and brown people. So youre this notion of setting aside setting, you know men well up against the defendant and i felt like its almost like theyre not in competition with one another but that somebodys pulling the strings on both of them. And guess what by this prosecution understandably that you you know had to bring forth because there was a car theft but that two people get plucked right from the system and then you have another story. Where the black family. Adamantly youre watching. This is not your case, but the black family is devastated when theyre watching the two defendants two black male defendants who killed their son their devastated because they dont want to see two more sets of parents lose their children, but its like everyone a victim and defendant are are sort of being manipulated by the system. And so maybe we can talk about power because this question of roles and where we sit at the table to me. Its just such a fascinating one and i think you take it on directly, but you know, we i often you know, as a law professor i say to my students even as a defense counsel. I remind them prosecutors are the most powerful people in the room just as ive heard you say because they are the gatekeepers, but then reading your book im like well but theres so much that is to what extent is that power illusory and you sort of started talking about that. So what do we say, you know to to our our students who are thinking about this work right and part of it. Im sure you know, you know is the how you show up in the space, but is it true that the role of prosecutor either theres a line prosecutor and even sometimes as a supervisory prosecutor you are delivered the cases that the Police Officers give you youve got deportation laws that you are beholden to so how you know, what are we to say is it true that the prosecutors are the most powerful players in the system . Prosecutors are the most powerful i believe in the courtroom. I mean unlike peoples perception of the judge being the most powerful because you have the opportunity to wield the most discretion. However, the power is often constrained and it might be very counterintuitive to think here. You are in this very powerful position and powerless against certain powers that be outside of the courtroom those that decide what the law is actually are because think about it you are constrained and as powerful as the laws youre able to pursue and prosecute and remember i was a career prosecutor, so i wasnt a political appointee, but i was under political appointees who obviously have the directive set by higher ups and the like, i mean, i was hired under the bush doj you can imagine how my discussions about Voting Rights restored for former felons win over in that interview, right . But again, its the idea of thinking about how that powers even the case you talk about in that chapter of not their son to the judge. The most powerful at sentencing still constrained and effectively powerless because of the guidelines and the resident opportunity in many respects to wield what he thought was the right and the Second Chance because he knew where the law and the nation of lost fits in and so i think the the most important thing to think about is just as our system of government is designed to have coequal. Branches of government we still require the checks and balances to avoid the abuse of power and so it is the case within the criminal legal courtroom right this idea of thinking about how to constrain this power. But the issue of for students, of course, i always say to them is you know, you dont necessarily need to even be in criminal courtrooms or be criminal lawyers like art weve chosen to do to have an impact on the system. Surely you realize that Corporate America has extraordinary role on the checks and balances. I mean talking about the most powerful entities special interest groups. Have a great deal to say about the kinds of priorities that are set prosecutorially and through members of congress and political appointees, and then you have the elected officials the elected das who are beholding now to a campaign platform, which youve got the socalled progressive prosecutor is coming into play and so, you know, i think to recognize that the power is constrained by forces and other branches is the best way to think about the system and so figure out for me it was which which socalled side or which how do i want to wield my position in a way do you feel that . Proactive or the reactive . Its the gatekeeper or the gate closer. What do you think is the most important part for some it might be through congress for others. It might be the judiciary for others. It might be the executive branch of government. Which of course is what i served under but in any respect, its where that arthur ashe moment of start where you are use what you can do. What use what you have do what you can love that and you can do that in area at the law and frankly you dont you dont even have to devote. I mean, ive ive pivoted like nobodys business. Ive had a sort of a thousand lives already under the practice of law because the connective tissue is always been storytelling and i think that people can pivot in ways towards the passion and the way they believe the system can be changed and reformed in their own private issues as well. Maybe its journalism. Maybe its the confines of law of big law. Maybe its as a defense attorney. Maybe its in policy or prosecution, but its entire ecosystem and the more we just okay singularly on issues of reform surrounding a police interaction. Well, you miss the rest of the iceberg, right . You know, thats well you miss everything else. Theyre injustices. You write about it in your book the rate of innocence the ideas of how this ecosystem operates. Imagine if people only thought about the Headline Police interactions you would miss the overwhelming the 90 of what really is going on because you think well, thats the only power that can be wielded. So yeah, i tell and that you tell your students and through your book as well talking about if you dont have an eye towards every facet of the ecosystem the world will turn without you absolutely structural racism. Yeah variable for you or i mean for those were really vulnerable you write about you know this and and the ways in which sociology interacts and policy and and again, itll Mental Health and police has the panacea which we know they cannot be jack of all trades. Thats absolutely goes back that dumb mascot, right . Im gonna campaign, right . Why are we blindfolding this woman . Its hoping that everything will just happen in the end at what and what way has if the Justice System. So to speak is the microcosm everything else. Is it the one area over the course of American History . Were race just hasnt mattered and we know thats not true. Thats a whole point. Both of our books. Be quite frank, right . So this i have to ask this and i dont even know if theres an answer to this. Is there any one place where black and brown people should not occupy that professional space and the only time ive ever had that thought was reading where you said in manuels story that the two ice ages showed up one was black and one was brown and i was like wow, could i ever do that . And so i just i did have that moment where i wondered. Is there just some work that we just dont want to be the ones doing but you know your your point about treating people with humanity and dignity and if got to follow the law. The law then somebodys got to do it with humanity. So maybe well, imagine if we had for example more black and brown agents age agents of the law. When you saw people being whipped under a bridge near, texas. I mean, would that make a cat right in some way . I mean, would that make it better . Would that be it you think that humanity would come there and i both know just its just because someone as they say and i everyones invited to the barbecue. Right, right. So ever theyre also theyre also i would say and i know you know this. If we relied solely on the momentum from just black and brown people who were impacted to make change to make change. We wouldnt have as much as we have. I mean if you look at the sort of the the mugshots from the freedom riders, i hope you see white people there as well and you will i hope you realize that there were jewish allies who were also lined. Yeah, and we see this happening at the rise of anti asian sentiment. We saw the chinese exclusion act because the trail of tears in every facet of our identity. We see historical kinship, so its difficult to occupy those spaces. But what is the alternative that youre not there . That you hope that theyll be allies allies, right . Oh, its hard or that we press the system from the outside and i dont know the answer. I wanted to put that on the table as one of those for me just attentions that so but lets lets go back to you and your professional career. So youve alluded to you know working at the department of justice right and and doing great Voting Rights work and it wasnt until you got to the United States attorneys Attorneys Office that you say. There was a Seismic Shift and how others perceived you. You had been a trusted champion of the people who looked like you. And so for me that goes back to this conversation. We started a little earlier about really sort of the complicated relationship that the black community has had with prosecutors and Police Officers to be quite frank and you you talk about how black defendants would look at you what you know as you walk past and be shocked that you could be the one occupying the seat that they thought would be occupied by white male and you devote i think a really nice Chapter Chapter 3 the chapter. I love the title, too. I want no part of this involving a black woman who was a victim of a crime herself and initially she refused to come to court. She says, i dont want to come to court. I dont want any part of this, but she asked you a little bit more about the the defendant she learns that hes basically a child very young person. So she decides i do want to come and i want to give a victim impact statement, but i want to plead for leniency and just in this powerful really quite moving. Victim impact statement she says your honor dont make an example out of me out of him. Excuse me. Dont make an example out of him from my sake. Hes a child. He made a mistake. And so i just think that such an important point and can you say more about how these conflicts play out right for black victims and what it is that you say to a black victim in in moments like that where theres so much distrust in the black community towards the the system as a whole. Well, you know that that chapter it always warms my heart because it was sort of shock to my system in the most beautiful way that there was the assumption that a victim would want to throw the book at everyone whos committed a crime but in really in reality it shows you the power of understanding intersectionality the power of an educated electorate of course and an informed and educated even victim pool within our society the idea of understanding fundamentally, what are the goals of our incarceration system of our Justice System we often think too many people believe its all about retribution and punishment not rehabilitation not reform not avoiding recidivism. Not the idea of alternate courts to address the actual root of the problem as opposed to locking someone up and throwing away the key and then giving them the forever stigma being a felon such that they can never really be gainfully employed let alone vote which we know is not coincidental about right the pulling the streets pulling up the strings again, right . So, you know, we think about that chapter and how the idea of wanting no part of it it sort of the the play on words of her not wanting to participate and what she knew to be a flawed system with her as the pretext to justify the behavior i sent into this person, but also the idea of some people could say and throw their hands up and think its an exercise and futility. You know, its always the way its going to be the deck is always stacked and you think you dont want to be on the other side of the hashtag, you know, maybe theyre inside of the United States is versus as well. Theres the weight of the government. There are the presumptions of guilt that really a company things. There are the being a beneficiary of the privilege of people looking at saying hold on. Well, the United States wouldnt bring a case let the person did something or the officer wouldnt have rested something where theres smoke theres fire and having that be an advantage for the prosecution in many respects and some people look at this and say inertia. This is always how its gonna be. Im not that why i want no parting that im gonna opt out as opposed to opting in to advocate for what you know to be right and knowing the role that she had was not an invited one. She didnt ever want to be a victim of a crime but in that moment. She was compelled to stand up and so when you think about just those moments of how and the role that is for some they believe its almost ceremonial, you know the idea of okay, well have from victim impact statement now and that moment it was no no, im going to tell you. Why im here and what i believe and youre not going to use me as some sort of moment just to rubber stamp, which you were already going to do, and theres great power in that and in that moment. She was more powerful than anyone in that courtroom. And also theres the notion of Second Chances how we dole them out in our society, you know from affluenza and those conversations right to other write about that notion the book rage of innocence and thinking about that the way we we, you know, we elevate black and brown children to mature adults who must have known what they were doing. We impute cynicism sinister behavior where none really might be and then we look at their young white counterparts and think fragility. They think Second Chances are wet warranted here and theyre welcome and thats why i think the lived experience and you know, you need not being necessarily black and brown to have the lived experience or wherewithal to recognize the imbalance. But it certainly you need that perspective and sometimes it comes from those who did not ask for the opportunity to be a part of this system, but spoke up showed up as you spoke about nonetheless. Thats right. I love that. I hadnt really thought about her in that moment until you started talking about her being the most powerful place. Yeah in the room. She exercised her authority right in that Space Shuttle in that space and made a difference right and and you know to the extent that she could right so i love that. I love that. We all whatever seat we occupy even as victim have an opportunity to affect things we do. So i really i really like that. So let me ask you so in your role now as legal analyst and youve been an adjunct that at George Washington law school. Um, you have a radio talk show. You still do your time every day every year. I guess my question for you now what is your pursuit of . Look night now. Yeah, right. How do you show up as an activist now, you know i in many ways still practice law and we do mean practice right as they practice medicine. We practice law hoping one day to get it right, you know to have our hypotheses match the end result in many respects and for me that connective tissue is now again in the form of storytelling. Thats what in journalism. Im doing. Thats what im doing im talking about and im helping to inform the public. I i am not somebody who strives to have an agenda or have my opinions rendered or stated under the guise of fact, i think people need to have the information and i personally find the truth. So compelling to yield but one result and so i hope people see it as a form of activism to inform and educate in many ways. And so when i think about all the ways of doing and i also try to broaden the horizons and the thoughts but its always about the art of storytelling and about showing people the whole sign of you if youre in new york see something Say Something. Thats right. Well, lets see something Say Something right, but i tell you there were moments that i questioned and wondered is probably you have you still practice in terms of defense counseling. Youve got a vibrant practice unfortunately because it means the need is that much stronger but the idea of would i be most useful . Within the system from the outside speaking about the system with the credibility and knowledge that i had for me. I resolved to be without outside of the system and were moving a muslim talking about it from that perspective, but for others that might not be the choice to do so, but i do think that the law has benefited in terms of the problems with it has benefited far too long for people being in the dark or believing. Oh, you know what this is not approachable or this is not digestible and ill leave it to a lawyer to help me understand this and how often have you got in calls from family members and friends who say i need to can you help me . Youre a lawyer and you go you need to be a lawyer to actually figure this one thing out. Hold on a second. Youre asking this flow chart of a viewpoint here. Heres you can do and help people to realize their own agency in this right and also i hope that the ways in which people show their their anger their frustration their hostility towards the principles that show in the news that somebody is above the law or why should somebody be above the law or wheres the accountability here or my god . Wow, what a double standard happening as it plays out in these very big headlines if you have that viewpoint on these high profile cases. Imagine whats happening in the millions of others that are not getting the attention of a red light thats recording every moment and putting that magnifying glass. Imagine what thats like and so i hope people understand the transferability of what we talk about on air and the big major cases everyones talking about and see that its reflective in illustrative of whats happening on other levels and once people start to bridge those gaps. Its almost the equivalent of having led the proverbial horse to water and watching it drink. Without you dunking ahead the throwing it in their face like the book is in many ways episodic for this reason that i invite you to walk through the experience. And see what you would have done and what ought to have been done and i continue that as a journalist. I continue that as a talk show host. I continue that as an analyst. But i will always be a storyteller and i will always be a proponent of civil rights and i will always be someone who will fight to the day. I die to ensure people realize civil rights is not an era. Right . Absolutely not theres like dinosaur. I cant even get to paleo. Whatever there are those errors. Those are errors. Right . Right civil rights is not is a concept. Thats and it should be fluidly through every aspect of our lives. And so i will do what i can to disrupt that and disrupt through truth. Thats excellent. And i really want to zero in on storytelling we both share that absolutely commitment to storytelling narratives change hearts. Yes, and they change minds right and then we can provide the research and we can provide the data to back that up, but its the stories that change the hearts and demands and what i also loved about what you just said, its not just the high profile cases, right . And so i think when both of us, right and there are other books, you know who taught that talk about the criminal legal system. Whats so powerful about what you do here is that it reminds people those highprofile cases are not oneoffs, right . All right, right. Theyre not isolated incidents, but this is the daytoday lived reality of so many people in our country and i think you do that very very well in your book. Well, and of course in tibet you the data is so important right . I mean, you know Speaker Pelosi used to often say, you know about these issues of the the plural form of anecdote is not data right right kind of look at that and say its a great line. However, im not sure which way that goes for this moment in time, but its the idea of so often the stories that people have been saying and sharing have been relegated to the periphery as antidote. Okay that happened there. All right fine. It happened there. Thats a oneoff app in there, but you see more and more the ideas of no. No, these arent anecdotes. There is the connective tissue thats happening here and you have to see it to change it and i do think that storytelling has been the number one way. I mean i look back to in my home state of minnesota. There were storytelling in a teenage girl putting a cell phone camera to watch what we knew to be then the murder of george floyd right . She was watching through storytelling do we think that that trial would have happened the way it had look at the press release compared to what we actually saw on camera unfold disturbing graphic barbaric in nature. The storytelling was in showing the world something do we think that there would have been we invoke the freedom riders earlier, right . We would have had the same scenario if he didnt see the hoses on Young Children and dogs attacking you think that it that many people across the world would have recognized the injustice happening to a ruby bridges without a Norman Rockwell painting let alone every other aspect of it, you know even to what happened on the edmonds bridge and you can go on to any any state of affairs. Storytelling is the way that people change things. It really is because there is something about our human nature that shuts off when data its almost like when my kids are like all of a sudden i come on air and theyre like, lets change the station right . Im like, but wait, no not second. Theres something about the data and information, but theres drawn in. To a movie and we we write nonfiction. Were truth, right . But theres something about people having and times that safe space and distance of vicariously seeing and going. How can this be right and how can we make it so its no longer. Thats right, and you know what . I love thats how can this be i think often about shock and all right. Yeah, we know for in the system. We saw it, you know, and i keep a folder to this day an electronic photo of all the cases that are shock and all even for me having been there and i cant imagine that i know thats pretty good. I cant think of that when i was reading i said, oh, this is definitely shocking off right and ive been there and i still shocking all and i think thats important. How could this be . So writing stories like this should cause every reader to say, how could this be . Right . Can we stand for that . So i definitely really appreciate your storytelling and not just the fake pearl collection either right . Well, youre like, oh that shocking well, do you have any more . Matcha . Is there soy milk available for right now . Can you make a double steam like the idea being able to move on . Thats right these stories and you write about why im looking at the cover and its a child with a target on the back with the backpack and i cant help but think of khalif router right . I cant help but think about all the Young Children. I have a little boy and a little girl i cant help but think about these moments and just the idea of weve got to get past a point where we say, were shock and awe. Translates into thoughts and prayers and then well right back right too much compartmentalizing that you talked about earlier, right . Like i cannot do that. We need to right we have to live we have to breathe we have to function but we have to only stories as our stories. Yeah, right whether youre inside america accounts. So american stories, i love that. I love that. So look as we as we begin to come to a close. I want to come back to you know, this book for you is every bit as biographical right as it is narratives about other peoples story, right and you really grapple quite deeply with your own tensions where we started so circle back to that, you know this notion of your grappling with your own identity. What does it mean to be a mother of black children right and yet occupying this space so theres some really good quotes and it was funny as it was sort of thinking back on this book at the beginning of your book. You start you talk about i walked away from my four year commitment at the United StatesAttorneys Office. Not knowing whether i had been a proud champion or a coward complicit or exonerated. Or the publics humble servant or its slave thats right at the beginning about midway through the book. You sort of come back to this and you say you wonder whether or not your presence in the system perpetuates injustice or disrupts it and then we get to the end. Im like waiting for some resolution right and she comes back you come back again and youre and you say i wish i could return to a time when i believe that justice was binary achievable and universally understood and basically your messages that the system isnt working well for pretty much anyone isnt working very well for anyone and so my my sort of closing questions for you is how do you feel about that now . Have you gotten some some closure some reconciliation in your mind about those competing identities . And then really i think about your children and you sort of alluded to this which are just so great. You have two children who look up to you and theyre going to see you as a Justice Warrior when they watch you on tv. Listen to you on the radio. And if one of them says to you, should i be a prosecutor . What will you say . What first the first part the reconciliation notion . Yeah, and i wish it was fully resolved, but fritzie fully resolved. The system would have to have been transformed. I think its the process of transforming and the way we look at different neighborhoods gentrifying right. This is transforming it is still aspirational just like the United States is not yet who it is on paper. The Justice System, i mean legalism so aspiring to be so and as i mentioned the word gentrifying obviously the negative connotations that come around about the displacement of things. I hope that as we transform were not displacing humanity and fairness in the process just for the goal of being able to suggest that it looks better somehow to have, you know, something cleaned up under the rug and displaced. Thats thats not what we need to be but i think there are so many moments where i have seen the clouds breaking. And its been recently and its been for the reasons. Weve articulated the idea of no longer having certain stories relegated to anecdotes people having more receptivity to the idea that this is in fact truth and what can be done and the average person. Believing there is agency in changing it now. Were not fully there. We are nowhere near fully there. We are perhaps this success rolling a boulder, but unlike that legendary greek mythology. Its not just sisyphus being watched by communities is figure out whether that one person can do it. I think in many respects weve got communities coming together and diverse ones who are helping to push that boulder and thats where we have not been in a long time maybe because you know, we needed to be still but were there again as far as my children. You know, ive always told them that and its really a testament to my own parents. I was so grateful. I love my parents. Im still very much the baby of my household and theyre like, can you stop calling so much and im like no what he means question, but i really tell you they showed me who they were my parents were often confessional in the ideas of how they raised us. We were always invited into the conversation. We were always aware of whatever troubles and trials and tribulations. We were always aware of their vulnerabilities and their strengths because they wanted their children to see them and for me, its a continuation of that and i know that i have grown by virtue of my parents allowing me to see unblindfolded what its like to be a woman a black person in this country to be somebody entrepreneurial and some aspects to be some suggestions oriented and for my children, i believe that they will see and understand. And if they choose one day of the many things i hope they will be. Which if they tell me one day if i ask him, what do you want to be in your group and give me one answer . I havent done my job. You better have a number of things that youre hoping to accomplish because every day you wake up and your eyes open on this side of the grass. You better be thinking i always joke around i say i want to be the kind of woman who when i wake up in the morning the devil says shes up again like shes awake again now, i love um, thats how my kids to be. That means that they pursue the loft and that respect. So be it. But they better have learned from the experience of their mother and they better be even quicker to unapologetically enter the rooms. Theyre in as their entire self with the benefit of someone they know to perspective and all of our collective wisdom. I mean if we are i heard yes for someone say the goal is always to be thought of one day as a good ancestor. Thats what these books. I hope will do. Yes. Oh, thats beautiful. Thats beautiful. And then maybe the the harder the flip side of that is what do you tell your children when they have to show up in these spaces . Yeah. Ill be be quite frank there were times in your reading i found your colleagues. At the United StatesAttorneys Office to be a little obnoxious. Im putting it nicely go. Well some were very some word. Of course you had great folks and so i dont want to you know, by any means over state that but that there was a level of arrogance and there was a level of dismissiveness and condensation and you talk about white male colleague who was really quite you know offensive to a black horse ended my course of him. And so i wanted to know so you youve got you weird these children and their social Justice Warriors right there got all these Different Things that they can do to achieve that end, but how do they show up and keep their soul intact right and to remain healthy and whole when you work sometimes in spaces whereas a black woman you feel a cutely that that arrogance and that dismissiveness even among the folks who you thought as you entered the door, were going to be your allies, right . Well, you know, to be totally confessional i hope that my children and none of our children will have to be social Justice Warriors your lifetime their lifetime. I that is my profound. Hope um, i also know thats a fools errand and thinking that yeah, but thats the that is the goal that they will be able to have the breath and scope of what theyd like to do not have to necessarily include fighting in the way that we have had to our parents our grandparents and others had to but i also want them to understand just as i said that the civil rights is an era. Its fluid and it includes what you are and about showing up for others as well and not just waiting until it impacts you individually to have and feel concerned about these issues. But i also think as many parents face this i find myself engaged in a bit of double speak inadvertently or on the one hand. Im telling my children. Mommy will always be there any other saying im always gonna be around figure this out, you know, or if youre ever in trouble dial 911 these options will help you dont trust every officer, right . I think about these things right or the ideas of you know, you love everyone and everyone is loving you and you everyone is gods child people will hate you there is hate in the world and you have these moments where i almost equate it to i thought perhaps i would be able to approach my kids childhood is like a museum right in the sense of all right. Were gonna go to this wing were gonna visit this now and its gonna match your maturity level and youre gonna have these eye opening experiences then when im ready to take you to different parts, well go there and in reality life happens reality happens and you are thrust into the wing of the museum that you didnt think youd ever be in let alone had years to come incidents like when your child like my son is a giant for whatever reason and he tracks over the hundred percentile all the time. And realizing the comparisons that might be drawn to a tamir rice being viewed as a man. Yeah the idea of my kids wanting independence to walk in rome as they please and wondering if the packet of skittles in their pockets will invite a neighbors scrutiny the idea of your son or daughter eating ice cream in their home being mistaken as if its someone elses apartment let alone in Elijah Mcclain walking down the street to be injected with ketamine and rendered brain dead and apologizing on the way for reacting and that these are the stories as parents of black children that we want to shelter them. But we want to instill the resilience and the wherewithal and to have that adrenaline selfpreservation instinct kick in. But its difficult. Its very different. Its very hard and my son is beginning to read this book. All right, hes only nine. Hes getting read the book. And hes already starting to ask the questions just as like many if i work from home during the pandemic and i you know have a home studio that i often broadcast from and my children will be looking up at me. Watching me talk about say the Derek Chauvin trial and my kids would say mommy. I just heard you say. That george floyd called for his mother. Would you come for me if that were me and realizing in that moment that i have a nine year old son. Who sees himself and a man dying on the ground . And wondering if i will be there trying to process this information right . My daughter asking questions. Like why do we say say her name . Whats that about and wanting like every other mother in this world to say, lets make some rice. Krispie treats. Lets go for a walk. Lets do a Scavenger Hunt do anything else but this and realizing that in this moment, i have to have the conversation globally. And have the talk individually and not have the benefit of maybe the distance of a camera my kids as you know mask on or not, you know children will respond to your eyes. They see the truth in it and they can see and sense any fear or blood in the water or uncertainty and having to be direct and god not wanting them to even know the truth. Exactly. You cannot shield them right . Its such a difficult tightrope right for parents to walk right on the one hand preparing the child for the inevitable moments. Oh that will come but yet trying to build up that resilience you talked about and that selfidentity and pride and you know, and that, you know, safetyist sense of safety. Its so there are two things that struck me one is you know, im saying across from you. Youre an attorney youre professor your journalist. This isnt about class. No, right that you know that we both have it right. There you go. Although it is apparently but that so many people say isnt this a question about class right . You know poverty makes all of the things that were talking about worse. Im very clear about that. But at the same time these issues theres no, you know class that you can attain as a black woman that will shield you from having to have those stations with your your black child, and so i just i just i heard that and so i think the way that we can end is i was just so struck by this notion that you have a seven you say seven and eight seven nine. Yeah, seven and nine year old and you have hope at this moment that you that by the time there are age that they wont have to sit across from one another and have this conversation and i do i want to really want to say im with you in that this is a moment and that folks that look like every you know, color of the spectrum are coming together around some of these Critical Issues particularly in light of the killing the brutal killing of george floyd on television. Or right in front of our eyes, but what gives you hope . What you know what gives you hope that in that sort of period of time because we young so we just talked about 10 years, right . Were just 17 right, but were basically in junior high exactly, but you know what gives you hope in that that shorter period of time that we will become obsolete that our roles. Will become obsolete in this conversation. Because i know and believe that optimism is not the achilles heel of progress. Its part of it. Its required. The alternative for cynicism is what we resign ourselves to the status quo. It may be unreasonable to be helpful. But unreasonable people are who changed the world right not wanting to say well, thats the way its always been and for those who think that the expectation that life can change in an instant. What did the two years been like . I mean you have a mask in your purse your pocket right now there you hardly see lips and teeth anywhere you the world has changed and so many respects not just here, but globally the views of january 6th will haunt people in the sense of what we see in terms of an insurrection that happened here this quickly the idea of a fouryear period under a prior president and how quickly the worlds view changed of the role model of democracy. There are so many moments that life has changed in an why should progress around Racial Equity and . Social change, why should that be precluded from opportunities for that faction . Why . Im not hoping to prolong status quo of covid19. Let it be perhaps a catalyst for understanding. If the world can change on a dime in that breath then why cant my children one day by the time im 41 years old, why cant my son and my daughter have the option that over a span of three decades their lives could be different . Why not . L i love it, i hope youre right. And i hope we can get there without another fight and i think that really. That is this momentpeople start to feel. I hope thats the case. I wantthat to be the case. But i think theres a domino effectoccurring. But once the dominoes rest i think change will come. Thank you. Thank you. Hello everyone and welcome to the National Book festival. Over the past 21 years in partnership with the library of congress tv has provided indepth uninterrupted coverage of the National Book festival featuring hundreds of nonfiction authors and guests and on saturday tv returns live and in person to the library of congress National Book festival. All day long you will hear from and interact with guests and authors such as library of congress carla hayden, journalist david meredith, writer smith and more the library of congress National Book festival Live Saturday beginning at 9 30 a. M. Eastern on cspan2. Weekends are an intellectual feast. Every saturday American History tv documents americas stories and on sunday tv brings you the latest and nonfiction books and authors. Funding comes from these Television Companies and more including high broadband. Like i broadband along with these Television Companies supports cspan2 as a public service. I have the pleasure of introducing charles love. Charles love is executive director of t