Transcripts For CSPAN2 2022 Texas Book Festival 20221106

I. Will with Everyone Welcome and thank you for being here at the 2022 texas book festival, live from austin, texas. My name is brian sweeney. Im the proud member of the Advisory Board at the texas book festival. And though i am biased, i firmly believe it is the best one in the country. So thank you for being here. We are absolutely delighted today to have two unbelievably talented authors on our panel talking about the environment both past and future. Im going to start at the end. Id like to welcome maya cave and ross and to austin and to the book festival. She is an author. Lawyer and activist. For 30 years, she has led the Delaware River Keeper Network, which is the area where she grew up and lives now with her family. And she is the founder of the green amendment for the generations, which is the subject of her book, which has been updated. It is called the green amendment the peoples fight for a clean, safe and healthy environment. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome maya, keith and rossum. And sitting to my right is a gentleman that ive had the opportunity to work with previously, been to the book festival a number of times. This is Douglas Brinkley, who lives here in austin. He is the katherine sarnoff, chair of humanities and a professor of history at rice university. The president ial historian for the New York Historical society, a cnn contributor. That list goes on and on and on. Im going to cut it short. But he has had seven New York Times bestseller, many about the presidency. He has written about teddy roosevelt, fdr, reagan, nixon, jfk, and the current book is called silent Spring Revolution. John f kennedy. Rachel carson, Lyndon Johnson and the great environmental awakening. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Douglas Brinkley, who died in. I think it is always such a pleasure to be part of this book festival and so, again, we welcome you. Were going to visit with the authors for about 30, 35 minutes or so. But we will hope that youll be thinking if you have questions that you would like to ask, well save the last ten or 15 minutes to do so. Please keep those questions brief and as we get to that point, there is a microphone right in the middle that you can go to, but well make an announcement for that as it gets a little bit closer. Im going to start with doug. I was fortunate to work with you at the san antonio book festival when your book on fdr rifle heritage came out. This book actually complete. Its a series of three books that you were working on related to the environment, the previous to conservation and preservation. And this book focuses more on policy. Just introduce us to it and tell us how that came about. Well, when i when i was young, i really got interested in the National Park service. So i used to go visit all the great National Parks. And wherever i go, id see some flier about it was either established by Theodore Roosevelt or Franklin Roosevelt. It was amazing what they did in conservation. Tr. That was john muir. Gifford pinchot generation. They saved 234 million acres of wild america. Theodore roosevelt created the Forest Service up today. He created 51 federal bird reservations since which is the birth really of todays u. S. Fish and wildlife. All of us, everybody on the cspan audience, everybody here, we own 550 plus wildlife refuges, National Wildlife refuges. And the Theodore Roosevelt was the progenitor. Then i wrote that was the first reform wave of conservation. The second wave was when Franklin Roosevelt became president. Whenever he would sign anything in life or occupation, he would put tree farmer. And he lived his whole life on the hudson river and and he ended up creating 800 state parks. Fdr, most of our Texas State Parks are fdr. The civilian conservation corps during the of the new deal, planted billions of trees to combat soil erosion. Dustbowl the third wave and why its a trilogy is silent Spring Revolution. And in this case, it wasnt a roosevelt who led it. It was Rachel Carson from pennsylvania who became the great writer about our oceans and the forties and fifties. She wrote it incredible seed trilogy, the sea around us being my favorite of the three, but she was a super star writer on ocean oceanography and the shorelines, and jack kennedy was a big fan of hers and in 1960, kennedy embraced carson, who was helping kennedy run against nixon. And much of carsons ideas became the Democratic Party plank in 1960. And then her book, 1962, silent spring, came out and had a galvanizing effect because Rachel Carson, in that book, while it was primarily aimed at ddt, which was being sprayed, she also was a fierce nuke antinuclear activist because we were blowing up atomic weapons willy nilly and the nevada range was blowing and making children. Six leukemia went up. Cancer went up. And so her book was saying, weve got to rein in the federal Government Department of agriculture and the pesticide industry. And it really gave birth to the environment, environmental movement. So in my book, i write not just about carson, but this ensemble cast of people that were moved by carson, including president kennedy, lyndon and lady bird johnson. And it even had a hangover effect in a richard nixon. Nixon, after all, creates the environmental protect agency. Nixon bans ddt. Nixon creates the Clean Air Act. In 1970, mammals and Marine Mammal protection act on and on. So it was a revolution in the environmental. It gave birth to the term environment. It replaced conservation in the period really was 60. Jack kennedy running and an xl adamss photographs becoming posters and the like and it ends in 1973 with the passage of the endangered species act, which passed the senate 92 to nothing endangered species. And then the Arab Oil Embargo came in. Oh, concerns watergate and corporate world if you like. The Extraction Industry started organizing and mounting a campaign against all of those environmental win win wins that i write about in my book. And as you say, doug, that the backlash that came at the end of that era, which you referred to, is the long sixties here in terms of the policy, it was driven by mainly two things rising gasoline prices and inflation, which is something that were continuing to hear in this cycle. And as we hear throughout the decades. I want to pivot back to you. First of all, speaking of Rachel Carson and pennsylvania, you have led the Delaware River authority for 30 years and working very hard on this on the ground. I wonder from your perspective, tell us a little bit about how your work, particularly as it related to fracking in and around pennsylvania, led to this idea of the green amendment. So i really appreciate the opportunity to join with all of you and to join with doug and brian. Its a real honor to be here. One of the things that so beautiful about Douglas Brinkleys book is it really talks about the optimism around Environmental Protection and how powerful and important it is to protect our environment in order to protect the health and the safety of all our people. Right. The quality of our lives. And so we had this wave of positive first step laws that were passed in order to protect the environment. But it didnt take too long for a whole boatload of reasons that very quickly, industry sort of got hold of that positive movement. And rather than allow current additional progress on Environmental Protection, industry really started to coopt the movement and make it more about an entitlement to pollute that belonged to industry rather than a right to a clean, safe and healthy environment that belonged to the people. And so that is sort of the foundation where things stood when i entered into my role as the Delaware River keeper and leader of the Delaware River Keeper Network about 30 years ago. Its an organization focused on activism and enforcing Environmental Protection laws. And unfortunately, throughout the majority of my work, fighting for the beautiful Delaware River and all of its tributaries and all the communities that depend upon the river, i have experienced the myriad of ways that our system of Environmental Protection laws fundamentally fails us. It is a system of laws at this point focused on legal, rising environmental pollution and degradation. It is a system of laws that allows for the perpetual sacred fighting of communities of color and indigenous communities and low income communities, all in order to benefit the profit and business goals of industry. Part of my work has been throughout the years to battle against fracking and fracking for gas from shale. That is, of course proliferating in the United States of america. While in my role as the Delaware Riverkeeper, we have been successful in keeping fracking out of the boundaries of the Delaware River watershed, including the portions of new york, new jersey, pennsylvania and delaware, with in the watershed where fracking could have happened but now can happen. We have not been successful in preventing the proliferation of fracking in the watershed states outside of the boundaries of the watershed. The commonwealth of pennsylvania is a big fracking state. Fracking came to the pennsylvania in about the mid 2005 and given the state of the law focused on permitting pollution and degradation, a system of laws with lots of loopholes for the frackers, it was pretty easy for the frackers to overwhelm pennsylvanias communities and environments, but for the frackers they wanted to find a way to make it easier. And so they very literally wrote for themselves the piece of law in 2012 that was passed by the Pennsylvania Legislature and signed by the governor. And long story short, was a gift basket to the industry and was going to allow fracking to expand exponentially in the commonwealth of pennsylvania as the Delaware River keeper and leader of the Delaware RiverKeeper Network. I knew that we had to find a way to stop this law because fracking anywhere is bad for all of us. Everywhere. Certainly is bad for my beautiful Delaware River. But the problem is, when you have a law thats passed by the legislature and signed by the governor, what can you do . Mostly people protest or try to elect better people to office. But we realized that actually in the commonwealth of pennsylvania, we had a long ignored amendment in the bill of rights section of the pennsylvania constitution that recognized and protected the rights of all people, including future generations, to pure water, clean air, and a healthy environment and the duty of all government officials in the state to protect pennsylvania Natural Resources for the benefit of all the people, including future generations. So we decided that we could use that long ignored constitutional provision, long ignored for a whole boatload of reasons which i wont tell you now, but grab hold of that. We brought a lawsuit. We challenged this very pro fracking law that had been written by the industry, passed by the Pennsylvania Legislature in 2012, signed by the governor. And we challenged it, claiming that these provisions we were concerned about would result in a violation of the environmental rights of the people of pennsylvania and the pennsylvania environmental rights amendment. The case went all the way up to a very conservative pennsylvania Supreme Court, and in december of 2013, because we had a constitutional right, we defeated those pro fracking elements of the law and stopped the law from starting right before it could wreak its devastating harm. In the wake of that victory, i thought, wow, so powerful what we had achieved. And i looked at every constitution across our nation and i found that there was only one other constitution, montana, that lifted up environmental rights to give it the same highest standing as the other fundamental rights we hold dear, like free speech and freedom of religion. Like pennsylvanias what i now call green amendment accomplished. And i decided that i was going to change that and hence started the Green Amendment Movement. And that was the reason why i wrote the green amendment book and that i think i think what is so striking about that is something that so many of us would think of and almost take for granted that the idea that our right to a clean environment, clean water, clean air is something that we deserve and as a right given to us in the same way that we have rights enshrined in the and the u. S. Constitution and the bill of rights and what we have in the state constitution to assemble free speech, freedom of religion, those types of things. But youre saying at that point in the seventies, only two state constitutions really had that in montana in pennsylvania, yeah. Almost every constitution across the United States actually talks about the environment and even environment rights within the constitution. And many of those amendments were added in the late sixties and the seventh, the time that Douglas Brinkley talks about, but only two states did it in a way that put environmental rights on par with those other fundamental rights issues. Excellent. And then speaking of that, then toggling back to the federal level, because i know your work, maya, is focused on state legislatures and sort of working the remaining 48 states. And theres certainly been progress made. I wonder when you think when i think of putting together jfk, lbj and richard nixon, doug, i dont know that i immediately think of the environment. But clearly with the case that you lay out, i should have what was sort of foremost in their minds in this sort of series of legislation, federal legislation that that came into effect. And as you say, how was it that some of these things, which seems unheard of now, that would pass with near unison unanimity, was able to get through, obviously much different from what we see today. Look, lets just go stick with pennsylvania for a minute. 1948, the nora small ag incident, the entire town of dunmore, pennsylvania, got trapped in a killer smog where everybody either died or got rushed to a respiratory hospital. If you go to dinner, pennsylvania today, youll see its the birthplace of its really where smog started being talked about. If you cut to 1960 when jack kennedy is running against nixon, you cant breathe in los angeles. Its grassroots womens groups out of pasadena, in irvine, in places that are going and screaming about, weve got to have clean air because people were getting smoked. You couldnt avoid smog in new york city. People died and scores of people died in london from killer smog. Were just spoiled that we got the Clean Air Act of 1963 and 1970, and now we have an air amnesia about how bad things were. So you couldnt couldnt ignore it. And incidentally, pennsylvania gave birth not only to Rachel Carson, but harold ickes, the fighting secretary of interior under fdr, was the birthplace of edward albee, who wrote the classic 1968 book desert solitaire. It was where william of zannys or that found Leading Light of the Wilderness Society was from 1964, lbj put aside 9. 1 million acres of wilderness roadless areas. Go look at the wilderness zones places like the bob marshall in and montana that the other state were talking about right now. Texas ran a book festival, a book by john graves. Goodbye to a river talking about the danger of damming rivers and killing it in the sixties, there became a huge anti damming movement which and eventually won over lyndon and lady bird johnson. There was push to dam the grand canyon, the colorado and david brower in the sierra club ran a campaign taking out ads in the New York Times, saying this would be like flooding the Sistine Chapel to destroy the grand canyon ecosystem over these dams and dams are just pork barrel for the bureau of reclamation and the army corps of engineers. So in what happened was all of these people had enough. They couldnt take it anymore, and they mobilize. And it came from many different areas. Cesar chavez, san dolores, where to working for farmworkers and the united farm workers in california were dealing with pesticides that were deforming children. We had a need to save some remnants of Scenic Rivers and lbj got deeply involved. So we now have areas that are designated red, wild and Scenic Rivers. But the key figure on all of this becomes william moe douglas from the Supreme Court. And he has most to do with the work mayas doing in the sense that douglas at the Supreme Court today, this is all pre Environmental Protection agency. The epa is not created till 1970. So in the sixties, people are demanding an epa, a regulatory and that can call balls and strikes in that can prosecute cute polluters and bill douglas from the Supreme Court who wrote a book called farewell to texas, because he thought all of the Natural Beauty spots were being mauled and destroyed in texas. But douglas would do protest hikes. Hed hike 186 miles from washington, dc and maryland to save the seno canal. He saved it. He hiked in the washington peninsula to save roads from not being built along the olympics. So you can have wild beach in america. He worked in john f kennedy, signed Padre Island National seashore. Jack kennedy did it. Look at a map. You want to see how big that is that they became saved instead of developed as ticky tacky condos and and, you know, boardwalk like culture. So these players were everywhere out there and theyre hitting it from all angles. Artists, painters, you know, when were dealing with endangered species, is do you realize andy warhol did a whole series of photo or paintings of endangered species . Robert rauschenberg, the great texas born painter, did the first posters for the first earth day in 1970. Earth day 70 was covered on television nonstop. Everybody participated. Were in a Midterm Election right now, and youre not hearing anybody talking about cleaning up lake erie. Oh, cleaning up, you know, saving the rio grande river. We we focused just on Climate Change to the point of that one issue. And were not doing the job on being land and water custodians and, you know, Kurt Vonnegut wrote about lake erie. Its dying from extreme in clorox bottles. And you could have added to that. Agricultural runoff and you know an algae blooms and so this great waterway, the great lakes, is struggling right now. And the work to stop fracking, if fracking would have been allowed, its goodbye to where . To the delaware watershed that shes working to protect. So and the key thing i learned from the sixties and seventies activist came from all walks of life. Many where republicans theres not a partizan thing, but you cared about the american bounty america, the beautiful earth. You cared about environmental justice, where just because youre born of color doesnt mean your neighborhood in houston becomes a dumping site for toxic waste. John f kennedy signed the Nuclear Test Ban treaty in 1963, which banned the testing of Nuclear Weapons in the atmosphere and underwater. You want a big deal that is that we got an accomplish something done a banning of Nuclear Testing on the planet and and so its an ongoing battle conservation slash the environment and the shes often sold the policy cause people wanted to save polar bear they want to save the bald eagle from they couldnt breed because of ddt. Their eggs were thinning. They wanted to save osprey and whale and manatee. And so its a nonstop fight to believe. As i write in the book, Rachel Carsons hero was a forgotten name. Dr. Albert schweitzer. Who . Schweitzer won a nobel, and he believed in a reverence for life that we feel were interconnected with all of the species, with the noahs ark of species, and not build go hog loose on man or humans dogma eating the planet in a way that none of our fellow species have a chance of survival. I want to that so eloquently put, and it reminds me of one of the things that maya had said in her book, which, again, quite frankly, its not something that i had thought about, which is that not only are we trustees for the land that we have right now, that were trustees for the future generations that come, it doesnt belong just to us. It belongs to our children and our grandchildren and moving forward. One of the things i want to ask about when youre sort of talking about that, doug, and particularly as i think about where we are here in texas, im a native texan. Ive been fortunate to travel really every corner of this state. And there are two things that you encounter almost simultaneously and and perhaps, you know, in competition. One is our natural world. How proud we are of texas as a natural place. And then to industry sort of what is industry done, particularly since 1901 and spindle top, how its redefined what texas is. Maya in your book, denton shows up the Manchester Community along the ship channel and houston shows up the Permian Basin shows up. And doug in yours, when youre talking about the Permian Basin, talking about lbj and waterways, you call for a Lone Star Coastal National Recreational Area to protect that part of the state and in particular, the residents who live there. And i wonder, just from your perspective, coming in and again, since so many texas locations are in your book, how do you size up where we are right now . How would you size up the notion of a potential green amendment here in in texas . So the truth is, texas is really like every state across the nation. And frankly, the way we are and as a nation as a whole here in the United States, all of the laws that are written are focused on legalizing pollution and degradation. As long as you get the right reviews and and right permits from the right elected officials. So often people think that the laws are protecting us from pollution and degradation to an extent they are. But beyond that limitation, it really is about legalizing pollution. And as you know, i talked about doug talks about that the heyday, right, when all this positive progress was happening. But we really did reach a limit. And now our laws have stagnated and now we are rolling things back and we are seeing that those those legalized pollution levels when coming out of industry, industrial operation after industrial operation after development after industrial operation are all piling up and piling up in communities. So people are suffering from cancer. People are getting alzheimers, kids are getting adhd, people are having asthma attacks and heart attacks literally on the street because of environmental pollution and degradation. In fact, more people die from water pollutants than from war. Every year. And, you know, doug talks about all these powerful stories of the past that really mobilize Environmental Protection and the passage of these laws. But and notes that were not talking about those stories in the in the press now. But the thing is, those stories are still happening and theyre amongst the stories i include in my book. I include the story of gina burton, whose entire family has been harmed by nearby air pollution and because of a legalized air pollution to some degree and to some degree, government officials ignoring what was happening. She lost her son, kiwanis. He died as a result of air contamination. There are stories like this happening across the nation. There are stories like this happening in texas, in port arthur. If you go visit with john beard, he will tell you about how his whole community is surrounded by the fossil fuel and petrochemical industry, how this primarily community of color and low income community, every aspect of their lives is being devastated by the industrial operations. All around. And what is happening is, one, that pollution and degradation that is devastating their lives, giving them cancer, preventing kids from being able to properly learn in school, depressed Property Values and economic opportunity. A lot of that pollution is legalized and a lot of that pollution is government turning a blind eye and letting it to happen. Letting it happen. And there is no higher power. Theres no other authority that the people of port arthur can turn to. You know, the people of manchester and the people of houston similarly are being sacrifice to the petrochemical industry, the fossil fuel industry, and have taken various steps to try to protect themselves. In the case of houston, they tried to put in place a City Council Ordinance that said, look, the states not enforcing state laws. So were putting in place this ordinance to say we, the city of houston, is going to enforce the laws on the book when our industrial operations violate them and our state fails to do anything. Well, what happened in that situation has happened so often. Industry challenged that effort to secure a better protection. That was just within the last decade. And who did the who did the state side with the state sided with the industry and when the case went all the way up to the texas Supreme Court, who did the Supreme Court side with the Supreme Court sided with the industry and with the state and said, listen, city, your overreaching youre trying to usurp state authority in all of these situations here in texas, there is no higher power. Theres no higher authority. Theres no constitutional right to clean water, clean air, a stable climate and a healthy environment that people can grab onto and hold government accountable and make them do the right thing. When it comes to protecting the environment. Now, we dont yet have a Green Amendment Movement happening here in the state of texas, but we do have green Amendment Proposals in 13 other states, including neighboring new mexico. Right. Neighboring new mexico, where the fossil fuel industry also reigns. Supreme. And yet we have a very powerful Green Amendment Movement happening there. We have a Green Amendment Movement happening in washington and hawaii and new jersey and delaware and maine and florida and connecticut and every single one of these green Amendment Proposals is unique to the state. Thats the thing about a green amendment. Its a green amendment. Its not just any old environmental rights amendment. There are a lot of environmental rights amendments in state constitutions, as i noted earlier. But all pennsylvania and montana and now because of our work and passage of a green amendment last year in the state of new york, now in new york, raise up environmental rights to that highest constitutional level because they fulfill certain criteria here. Its not about cookie cutter language. Its about certain criteria. The language has to be in the bill of rights section for the for example, it needs to protect future generation. It needs to apply every level of government, not just give the power to the state legislature. And so when we advance a Green Amendment Movement, we try to create the right language for each particular state and the active ists that are working in that state and in every single state. The Green Amendment Movement got started differently. Sometimes it was because of an environmental organization. Sometimes it was because of a state legislator who wanted to do the right thing and champion environmental rights in a meaningful way in their state. Sometimes it was because somebody like you heard a talk like this or read my book or heard a radio show or a podcast and literally picked up the phone and called me and we got to work advancing the Green Amendment Movement in that state. Thats how new mexicos green amendment started. All of these movements are at a different stage, but theyre all powerful and people are energized by them. Just like they were. The way douglas talks about years ago. People are energized because they see there is something fundamentally wrong when it comes to Environmental Protection and they want to change that and they think it is absurd that people have a right to free speech and freedom of religion, that people have a right to bear arms in ways that is literally killing kids and families when they go out into the world. But they dont have a right to clean water and clean air. They dont have a right to the healthy environment thats around their community that they would like to enjoy with their families. They recognize that thats an absurdity and they want to see change and they want to make a difference. So theyre getting energized. And thats why Green Amendment Movements are not happening in every state. But they will soon. And i believe it will happen in texas soon. And i believe that, you know, we have to start this Green Amendment Movement at the state level because the states have a lot of power when it comes to Environmental Protection. So too does the federal government. But the states have a lot of power and constitutional amendments are really accessible at the state level. You can make it happen in your state by getting organized, getting active and speaking up. And so if we go state by state by state, passing constitutional green amendments, not only will we be securing power for Environmental Protection in the near term, but we will also be laying the Foundation Necessary to ultimately secure a federal green amendment because we need that to to be the next step in the another next step in the story that Douglas Brinkley writes about in his fabulous book, and i hope his next book is about the Green Amendment Movement and how we made that powerful change. The authors are maya kay, van rossum and Douglas Brinkley. Im going to ask them both short questions right now, that pivot off of their expertise. If you have questions from the audience, i would ask that you go ahead and stand by that microphone in the middle. We probably will only have time for two or three. So i ask that you keep those questions brief, but as people are coming through, i want to ask you, doug, and then i have a follow up to you, maya. It does seem like the news has been so bad, despite the hard work of people at both the local, state and National Levels to improve the environment. Do you see somebody on the political stage right now that you feel is the right person, the right standard bearer in this carrying these ideas forward, or are we lacking that person . I find it i agree with her on the states. I think its not a person right now, but the states. California. What california is doing by 2035 with fossil fuels leading the way. You know, oregon led the way statewide on doing recycling in the period im writing about and bringing back bottles and things. We dont even we just take for granted right now. But i find it im a professor and students are frustrated because theyre they do care. They want to get engaged. And some of them, theyll just keep feeling its doomsday, that its too late with climate. And i tell them, get involved locally, get in bobs. If you even if its a little bit to work to, you know, work at the zilker park to help keep your local park clean up, work to keep the Colorado River clean, you know. Yeah, work, work to save, you know, the prairie out water, chicken work to pick, you know, big bend National Park and become a friends. It doesnt have to be. Im guilty because im using gasoline, so im part of the problem. I have a hard, high carbon. You know, imprint. So im just get involved, start on a local level and then itll build up eventually. We need the federal level. I mean, there is no good to have Clean Air Act if you know, wisconsin is polluting and it hurts minnesota where the wind blows, you know, it does no good to protect birds of massachusetts for them to be shot when they migrate to florida. You know, it does no good for, you know, louisiana to try to clean up the mississippi river. If i was going to be dumping industrial sludge into it. So it does have to be federal. But to get started, i would go on a local level because we need engagement and you can win some local wins right out of the gate. And many of the people out of that dangerous smog incident i mentioned, a it became a movement out of pennsylvania. Thats swept across the land for seeing the congress to eventually do something. Well said. And thanks to you both. Since we do have such a long line, were limited on time. Im going to go ahead and let that well go ahead and start with questions, sir. You have a question over excuse me, who thank you for the very brief, but its good to. 34 words just product from the know the process of law be your very important here for so im just wondering in regard to air or there in previous groups because i think it can be a mere declaratory with no enforcement teeth and thats what were seeing and and National Constitutions that have tried green amendments theyre dead on arrival. So i think we need to have a compensation part of that or its not going to work. Thank you. So im going to, with all due respect, disagree the green amendments that are happening at the state level are certainly not dead on arrival. They are exciting people and getting them enthusiastic and engaged because theyre very accessible. You have to understand the law, how the law works. The way i do to understand that you as a person have a right to clean water and clean air and thats why the grassroots, including the youth movement, can get so involved in this amendment movement. Now, one of the things, you know, whether we talk about Property Rights or the the the right to life or all trying to get environmental rights read into existing constitutional language, whether youre talking at the federal level or the state level, but the actual explicit recognition isnt there. That is when these legal arguments are losing because, the language is not explicit and clear with our Green Amendment Movement, were not trying to get any judge or politician to read anything into anything. Were being explicit and clear. We have a right to pure water, clean air, a stable climate and healthy environments. And all government officials are constitutionally bound to protect those rights for present and future generations. And even when the very conservative pennsylvania Supreme Court was faced with having to uphold or strike down a proindustry law in the face of this explicit constitutional language, even they were forced to reckon with the truth. The people we the people said we have a constitutional right to a clean, safe and healthy environment and we mean what we say. And so in order to uphold that right those Legal Provisions had to be struck down. Its one of the reasons why the Green Amendment Movement is so powerful. And were not hopping to the federal level. We are starting at the state level. So we can build the education and the Foundation Necessary to be successful. But it is true that when there is a constitutional claim, there will have to be a balancing with Property Rights and other fundamental rights that may get involved. And thats part of the way our law works. But right now, when developers are industry clean Property Rights to try to and, you know, talk down, tamp down government opposition to what they want to do, they just say Property Rights. Yeah, you have to pay me and the local officials continually sit down and shut up. But now, now we have a constitutional right to a healthy environment that is on par with those Property Rights. And so that dynamic totally changes. Yes, sir. Transportation and housing question. And i appreciate what professor brinkley was saying about young people and one concern i have is environmental organizations that seem to be controlled or run by older folks seem to have one view of transportation and housing, and ill call it the nimby. I want my free parking and how and i want to live where i want to live. And then you have the environmental organizations that are more run by younger people that are more urban and id like one to encourage recognition of the societal cost of socalled free highways and free parking. So from your research and experi, vance and his short history working on what can be done to to bring people to better understand and not have these big divisions. Well, look, in the 1967, due to racial carsons book and the ddt battle to ban it was born really environmental law. I mean, the Environmental Defense fund still around a day edf slogan became sue the and that sued the still hold sway today you got to take lawsuits against polluters and go after them. That then gave birth to the sierra club defense fund and the National Resource defense council. All these groups still doing good things today, but theres so many new nonprofits that are really exciting and i think the key that i learned from writing about the sixties and seventies is david brower, the sierra clubs saying, have fun. Its fun. Its fun to get into these fights when youre young. Dont keep thinking its, you know, go take them on and you can see all of the successes that we get. If youre willing to take them on. So theres so many young people engaged now doing incredible bold things. And im and im hoping the nobody was hurt. Im hoping that my book talking about the sixties and seventies shows win, win, win, win and gives clues how to do some of those today. You know what a Big Deal Music was back then. Marvin gaye, mercy me, the ecology. Joni mitchell. Writing about, you know, theyre paving paradise ice and putting up a parking lot. Pete seeger holding folk songs and and rallies and shutting down things like bodega bay, california, saving it from a Nuclear Power plant, being built on the San Andreas Fault line. These fights are all over, all around us. And just, i think getting gauge which organization you decide to sign up to, whether its a new one or its a sunrise movement, whether or whether youre going back, you want to be a sierra club person or youre going to fight with the green amendment. I mean, go for it, but do it with with an idea that victory can be ours if we organize. And then all these groups need to meet and keep this green Power Movement alive and well in the 21st century. And it is alive and well thanks to people like maya, whos doing remarkable work, a bold grassroots work this one right here, remarkable and lets lets give her a round of applause for for. That. That is wonderful. Thank you to you both. I am sorry that we are now coming up to the end of our time. I know there are several people who would like to ask questions, but id like to thank cspan and book tv for being part of this and broadcasting and sponsoring this tent. Wed like to thank you for being here and continuing to support the texas book festival. Again, it is maya kaye, van rossum. She is the author of the green amendment. She will be in the book signing tent immediately after this panel. So go and see her. There it is. Silent Spring Revolution by Douglas Brinkley. This book is available on november 15th, november 15th. But we have cards up here for a preorder, if you would like to come get them. Ladies and gentlemen, please. Our panelists, a warm round of applause. Thank you again. For. And book tvs coverage, the texas book festival. Well continue in a moment. Marc morano, publisher of Climate Depot aecom, argued that the science on Climate Change is not settled and legislation like the Green New Deal will do more harm than good. His is green fraud. Heres a portion of his interview at freedom fest. Author marc morano. In your book, green fraud why the Green New Deal is even worse than you think. You write that the Green New Deal is all encompassing transformation of society. What do you mean by that . Well, in the book, i lay out that the vision of the Green New Deal is not chiefly about climate or energy policy. What theyre trying to do is remake society quite literally. Every aspect of society. And that would include everything from health care, housing, racial justice, identity politics on down to our energy structures, our climate, our transportation, your home heating, your ability, travel, the entire spectrum of human life. They want to reengineer to make earth friendly. And this vision, if you will, of equity. And thats going to require people turning over decisions that were previously held by the people to essentially silly unelected bureaucrats who are going to be managing every aspect of our lives. And i mean that. And i and i laid that out in the book down to what your thermostat can be at, through smart meters, down to all your appliances. Were already seeing whats happened with dishwashers and washers and dryers, even shower heads. Every little aspect will be regulated. But that it goes, you know, it goes much deeper as well. Theres calls for ending private car ownership, roving fleets of rental electric vehicles, assaults on private home ownership, assaults on the suburbs. So all of this is built in to the vision and the broad vision of the Green New Deal. And it means all things to all these progressives. So whatever branch of the progressive wing thats pushing this is going be pushing different aspects of it. And that is why, you know, people are realizing this is not like, oh, a Climate Energy bill, thats great. I care about the earth. Lets support the Green New Deal. There is much, much more in it than that. Well, lets start with some of the environmental factors you describe the Green New Deal as an ultimate wish list of the progressive environmental mantle agenda. How specific quickly would the Green New Deal change our lives, in your view . Well, the first thing its going to do is make energy more expensive. And were were actually already seeing that here in mid 2021 because, you know, Energy Markets go by signals. And one of the first things that, you know, that happened with this new administration is they sent a signal to the Energy Marketplace that we are going to do the keystone pipeline, were not going to do drilling on federal lands. Were going to be going after fracking with the of a thousand cuts. Were going to be a essentially shutting down traditional fossil fuel energy, which america in 2019, prepandemic were leading the world with the largest producer of oil and gas. We are. We had actually been the Biggest Energy producer as opposed to user since harry truman was president. More Energy Exports than imports. We were now we were not even energy independent. You could argue we were energy dominant. So one of the first things we do in. January 2021 is start shutting down this amazing American Energy renaissance. Thats, if you will, of the last decade and a half, chiefly led by fracking and the way its going to change our life almost immediately is Higher Energy costs and potentially inflation related to those Higher Energy costs. So were seeing the effects of this in gas prices and there are other factors. We have a we have a sitting u. S. President now begging opec to increase Oil Production and this is a shock because america was, the Worlds Largest oil and gas producer. Energy dominant just prior to all of this. And now were begging that. We also have russian oil imports reaching record levels. So this is shocking. And were going to be turning over our Energy Dominance and under the Green New Deal for rely on chinese rare earth mining which is going to be done by slave labor in china and by human rights abuses in africa when they do mining things like cobalt and other rare earth minerals, metals for things like solar panels, windmills, electric car batteries. So the Green New Deal is a lose lose lose proposition for americans, and it will do nothing not only for the climate or extreme weather as its being sold. It will do nothing for global co2 emissions. So it is literally fails cost benefit. It fails a sniff test. It fails logic tests and it fails a science test. It fails a Public Policy test. And thats what my book goes through. It is it is perhaps one of the most ill advised plans ever devised and foisted upon the American People in decades at least. Are we facing climate catastrophe . No. And thats one of the things i spent a lot of time in the book. First of all, i have a chapter devoted to the science. And i also have a chapter devoted to the Climate Emergency. And these claims, the alleged Climate Emergency. So starting out, one of the ways they claim we face a Climate Emergency and this is very well documented and even mainstream and climate scientists are now rebuking things like the National Climate assessment, which was done during the Trump Administration, but it was done by president obama holdovers, and it included activists, environmental groups like the union of concerned scientists, people like Katharine Hayhoe and don robles. They used extreme models scenarios to scare the public. And now these model scenarios are by the by the original architects of are saying they were never meant to do it. So when current climate reality fails to alarm what theyve done in bedded in these government reports is using extreme model scenario that now is being wholesale reject it by the Climate Community and they use those scenarios order to scare the public to gin up Public Policy. So no we have face the furthest thing possible from a Climate Emergency. And in the book, if you go and i go behind the headlines, if you look at a un press release, the summary for policy makers, its dire and scary and its all about political lobbying. They use science to lobby for political action. Even al gore said the un reports are, quote, talked up in order to get policymaking attention. Well, not just the un reports, but the National Climate assessment and other government reports like that, including eu reports, uk government reports. But if you look deep within the reports and i do in my book, i show you that floods hurricanes, droughts, tornadoes, wildfires, sea level rise. Even according to these reports that they people cite as evidence of a Climate Emergency. The premise of your question show theres either no trends or declining trends. And decade old climate timescales 30 years, 50 years, 100 years. So people can say, oh, california has evidence of a Climate Emergency or the heat wave in the south, in the northwest as evidence. Nonsense. Nonsense. Epa data shows up to currently that the 1930s were the hottest heat wave in the United States. So anyone claiming that this northwest heat wave currently is evidence of Climate Change, were below the 30 year average temperature on satellite, so that makes no sense. The us is less than 2 of the earths surface. Theres many areas of cold. So if you look at all of these factors, there is no Climate Emergency. It watch the full program any time online at book tv dot just search marc morano or the title of his book, green fraud. In the run up to the 2022 Midterm Elections. Many politicians, journalists and public figures are out with new books about their lives, their work and the state of america. Heres a look at some of those books. In her book about donald trump, confidence man, New York Times political reporter Maggie Haberman includes material from three sit down interviews with the former president. In america a redemption story, republican senator tim scott of South Carolina discusses his formative years and tells the story of americans that hes met whove overcome hardship and contributed to our National Life in the myth of american inequality. Former texas republican senator phil gramm suggests the problem of economic inequality is overstated and that the policy debate around the issue is biased by poor government data. Journalists and husband and wife peter baker and Susan Glasser look back at former president trumps time in the white house. In their new book titled the divider. Former Trump Campaign chair paul manafort, who was found guilty of bank and tax fraud, later pardoned by then president trump, argues in his book political prisoner that the charges against him were politically motivated. Missouri democratic congresswoman cori bushs memoir, the forerunner, looks at her journey from registered nurse to representative in congress. Donald trumps son in law, jared kushner, released a memoir of his time as a senior white house adviser in breaking history and a former Trump Administration u. N. Ambassador nikki haley takes a look at the lessons it can be learned from Women Leaders in if you want something done. And just after the 2022 election, two other high profile political books are set to be released in. So help me god. Former Vice President mike pence. His faith and journey to the vice presidency. And in the light we carry. Former First Lady Michelle Obama follows up bestselling memoir becoming by offering advice on how to overcome uncertainty. Those are just some of the political books that are being published this fall. You can look forward tbook tv covering all these books in the near future. Recently on book tvs Author Interview program. Afterwards, former nasa deputy administrator lori garver provided a firsthand account of the efforts to modernize nasa and expand space explorer mission. Heres some of what she had to say. The Obama Administration decided if we could carve out commercial crew some Technology Programs earth sciences. Everyone wanted to protect the webb telescope. Wed agree that the government could have a big launch program and the orion capsule could continue. Those programs have cost us together with their ground systems around 40 billion since we made that deal. They were supposed to be launched by the end of 2016, and they havent launched yet here in 2022. As you said, theyre currently on the pad. Im hoping for a successful test. They will then go back to the hangar, come back out for a launch. First test flight. No people on board. August at the earliest. That is in comparison. After 40 billion to commercial crew, which we have flown now five crews to the space station and space x got two and a half billion dollar private citizens. And we have flown private they have flown private citizens on dedicated missions. I mean, the it is one of these things where. Yeah, it took a while, but we came out of gates graham and fast because of the success of space x and now these hopefully boeing soon and the suborbital launches with blue origin and virgin galactic. But if you look at the comparison between the cost plus contracts and the what we call the commercial crew, the return on investment for the public is not comparable. Since then, the private sector space and blue origin have launched have invested their own money in big launch vehicles. So those arent comparable vehicles. Sclass, orion, much bigger going to be able to take more payload farther away. But space x and blue origin have vehicles space x flying one of them the falcon heavy that can go all most as as heavy payload to lowearth orbit as will be in this vehicle that costs 40 billion. I mean thats just is very frustrating for me because we didnt have to do it. That was a that was something that in 2010, 2011, when this deal was made, it was obvious. It was obvious. Afterward, adds is a weekly Interview Program with relevant guest hosts. Interview doing top nonfiction authors about their latest work to watch this program and others. Visit book tv dot org slash afterwards. And book tv is back with more authors from the texas book festival in austin. Years. Later. By. The. Manager. Okay, my name sunil. Just. And im on the third year political values and ethics is obviously a Public Affairs and im really very, very happy to be in conversation today with really one of the best writers, maybe. And. Elizabeth alexander and just some housekeeping. Housekeeping. Elizabeth has already precise two books, so she will not be at the authors table at 3 p. M. But you can go to book people and get a sign copy of the treyvon generation. Okay, so thats very important. Okay. So im going to give a brief introduction and then were going to go right into our conversation. Elizabeth alexander is a prize winning and New York Times bestselling author, renowned american poet, educator, scholar and cultural advocate. Her memoir, the light of the world was a finalist for the pulitzer prize. And one of my favorite books and National Book critics circle awards. She composed and recited praise song for the day for president barack obamas. 2009 inauguration and is currently president of the Andrew Mellon foundation, the nations largest funder of the arts, culture and humanities humanities. So im looking forward to this conversation. I love this book, the trayvon generation. My first question really is about the books title, because it has multiple meanings and what what is this . What does it mean for you . The trayvon generation . Well, i think, first of all, im so happy to be here with all of you. So thank you so much for coming out. Im so happy to be here with you in what feels like an conversation that we get to focus in the here and now. So thank you. And to your question, i think i said it better in how i wrote it. So i want to just give you a little taste of what how i think of the trayvon generation. This one was shot in his grandmothers yard. This one was carrying a bag of skittles. This one was playing with a toy gun in front of a gazebo. Black girl in bright bikini, black boy holding cell phone. This one dance like a marion that as he was shot down in a chicago intersection, the words, the names, trayvon, laquan, bikini gazebo, lucy, skittles, 2 seconds. I cant breathe traffic stop dashboard cam 16 times his dead body lay in the street in the august for 4 hours. I call the young people who grew up in the past 25 years the trayvon generation. They always knew these stories. These stories formed their worldview. These stories helped instruct young africanamericans about their embodiment and their vulnerable ity. These stories were primers in fear and futility. These stories were the ground soil of their rage. These stories instructed them that antiblack hatred and violence were never far. This is the generation of my sons. Now 23 and 24, and their friends who are also my children and, the University Students i have taught and mentored and loved over decades. And this is also the generation of darnella frazier, the 17 year old minneapolis girl who came upon George Floyds murder in progress while on an everyday run with her cousin to the corner store filmed it on her phone and posted it to her facebook page. So thats who the trayvon generation is. And even though we know that American History is marked with so many moments of racially motivated violence, and that if you think about emmett till, if you think about rodney king, you know, there are are all of these flash points in our history where we not only say enough is enough, but when we say what do we have to learn collectively from this moment . I think whats different now is that with these young people and with the technology of the cell phone, they are on their phones, out of the eyes and arms of people who love them. Theyre watching these things repeated, repeated times, dozens and dozens of times. And i would like to know how were going to think about the effects on an entire generation of of that kind of not the exposure per se, but the knowledge that comes with the exposure. And i think thats really very, very important because i think Trayvon Martin and trayvons death and the acquittal of his murderer really are one of the hinge points of this period in time that ive called the third reconstruction. Mike. My question for you right now is about the art in the book. Theres theres so much beauty and poignancy in the book. It really is. And theres art in the book. But you also obviously, youre youre a poet. A scholar. So many different things. You talk about the art. I want to talk to you and ask you a question. In what ways does black art and representations, blackness in art shape this particular moment . And the second part is in the politics of the trade. Trayvon martin generates, an as well as the wider nation. Yeah. Well, you know, one of the things that im just so proud with the physical object of this book, because i wanted to include work by amazing, amazing artists that would help us think and feel and understand and make an offering really, to young people. So here, just as an example. This is how its set up throughout the book, beautifully reproduced and the work of art in here. In addition, the poetry thats included in here is meant to be literally a part of reading the book, a part of the conversation. So that youre reading words, but youre also experiencing these images. And its not like one illustrates the other. Rather, its part of a much richer way at understanding our moment. And i think that, you know, i both wanted to listen. So a very important kind of hinge moment was after Trayvon Martins murderer was acquitted, George Zimmerman, that happened at the same moment that the incredible movie Fruitvale Station directed by ryan coogler, came out. And so if you think about like literally and i remember it with, you know, my two young men that we were watching Fruitvale Station, which of course, tells the story of a murder that happened in the San Francisco bay area. Bart station. And i was thinking, hmm, my kids are 12 and 13. What does it mean to take them to see this story . But we need to be able to talk about this reality. And we came out of the theater to the news that George Zimmerman had been acquitted. So to be able to say is an artistic response because, you know, oscar grant, who is the subject of Fruitvale Station. If youve seen the film or if havent, its a day in the life. So we start with you know, the alarm goes off, he wakes. He plays with this baby girl. He passes with his partner. He goes to work. He picks something up for mother. Its everybodys regular day. But you watch knowing what is going to happen at the end. And so i think that, you know, the Overall Mission here, if you dehumanize people, if you do not see them in their fullest dimension, if you describe them in dehumanize in terms that is how we move along the road to violence. And think that this is something that we know just as human beings. So i think that that combination of okay here people heres a film that lets us talk about this and also saying, you know young people what is the art that you are making . So theres a lot of listening thats happening in the book as trying to sort of be very importantly multigenerational, because i think that unless we move across the generations, generally speaking, were not going to make social progress. Now, as parent of a young black girl, i was particularly moved by your discussion of your two sons and you just finished talking about them and the world they face in terms of the of Racial Injustice and moral rot. What kind of possibility those as well as challenges. Is the trayvon generation in inheriting . Well, you know, we could talk about my sons all day couldnt we . They are amazing young people. I think. And i do think that. There is a kind of clarity that they have about justice. And they know they to raise their voices. You know, at the you know, i cant even remember of the moments where we were faced with, you know, this kind of violence where we felt we had to respond. But ill never forget, we live in new york city and one such thing happened and they said, mama, we have to go out. People protesting, we have to be a part of this. And, you know, i think that the maternal balance, you know, here are big guys in hoodies going out into a dangerous world. But can we raise our children to experience the world as always dangerous . We cant. I mean, so i think that balance of, you know, finding the joy in everyday life. So i talk. About dancing. Yes. You know, i talk about, you know, what does it mean . I feel something that my my sons love to dance and love to dance in community, loved to be in there safely. That feels very important to me when there is so much that is frankly frightening and have always thought that knowing history, having a societal analysis, american traditions of raising our voices to injustice, that that is empowering for young people and that that is in addition of course, to boundless love and understanding that there no such thing as other peoples children. So, you know, i quote from gwendolyn brooks, the poet, quite a bit, and shes someone whose work has been completely empowering to my own poetry. And that is, you know, one of the whole gists of her work is that all of our children belong to us. Because when you start thinking, my children, my house, those children out there, then we are no longer acting as a society. And were also imagining that there is a zero sum with our spiritual and emotional and cultural and material resources, but no matter how much you have, you never have only enough for the people you happen to be responsible for in your house. I believe. Now i want to ask a question about, again, this particular moment, because i think your book joins the conversation with people like Nikole Hannahjones and imani perry clint smith, Hanif Abdurraqib and mariam kaba. Just a whole range of what i would call black artist, activist, scholar poets, writers who are really using black cultural and literary traditions. This moment, i think, in striking ways that actually both parallel the first and second reconstruction, but go beyond because we have such multiple quality. So its not just james, you know, and i love james baldwin, but its and so much of it is really black women multi generationally telling our story ill say not even their story telling our story yet because. Its part of my story too. I want you to discuss that terms of the trayvon generation, the way in which you really mind in brilliant ways here, generational, literary and cultural traditions in the africanamerican and vein poetry, prose, music, song gospel, just the whole range. Right. And its really, really well. Why is this such a striking time where even during the moral rot that you describe, were seeing such a flourishing of just black art . Its incredible. Yes. And youre president of the Andrew W Foundation and youre amplifying that. And bigger ways, even beyond your own individual artistic voice. I want to want to talk about that. Yeah. Mean, i do think i think i think an extraordinary time not because more people are making because i believe theres a pretty steady state of creativity over place in time. So if we look back at, you know, we were talking about the harlem renaissance this morning or if we look back at other moments in time artists, you cannot actually, as it turns out, in the my experience here yet i pray extinguish intellectual and artistic creative voices. Whats changed i think, is just and you know, this this is attributed to the political movements of the 1960s this is attributed to black studies and ethnic studies. This is attributable to all of the movement in society. This is attributable to affirmative action. Lets talk about that. All of the things that have said our societal spaces have to be more open and democratic. They have to welcome more people, because if we dont do that in our universities, in our publishing houses, in our uplifting creativity, were not going to be seeing all the creativity. So even though i think all of those arenas to which ive been in, which ive been privileged to work, you know, the realm of creativity as a poet, the academy, as a scholar, and now philanthropy. There is still so much progress that is to be made. So but we have made progress and hopefully weve made progress with people who say, you know none of us stands alone. And the that i was taught is any that you get in youre there as a representative of other people bring as many people through the door with you. So sometimes that means literally, you know if you have the capacity to, you know, bring in students or hire people or, whatever it might be, but also you walk in many voices, not just your own, which again, i mean, i think running counter to this idea of american exceptionalism, that there is theres no such thing as genius. Ill just say, i think there are many genii, but i think that, you know, genius occurs equal distribution but not equal elevates. And and theres always more than than one. So thats kind of why i think that, you know, with a little bit of an aperture of more of us in leadership positions, were able to articulate multiplicity and bring more people with us. Now, i mean, you before getting on the stage, were talking about storytelling, the power of storytelling. And i want to really dive into that with some of the specific i mean, i love all of it, but there were certain chapters, like the chapter we dress our ideas and clothes to make the abstract visible that really are so powerful and well done. I want to talk about angola. Yeah. Storytelling and storytelling through. But just the storytelling. And you you humanize just in that chapter, the angolan experience. Daddyo, the oldest inmate in angola state penitentiary. And you talk about your own visit to angola really deeply moving, but also deeply illuminating. And i think in miniature, it shows us the power of story telling, because there are so many other stories within the book. And then just that story. We dress our ideas and clothes to make the abstract visible. So. So id love you to break. Thank you for asking about that, because i wanted to talk about that and i wanted to, you know, so angola prison in louisiana holds the largest number of people with life sentences on planet earth. 90 of the people who are incarcerated there will die. Abuses of cell, i mean. Well, i believe solitary confinement in every instance is an abuse. But, you know, further abuses, solitary confinement are there. And why i wanted to visit and visit with colleagues is that i think its very important to that. If were going to understand our society writ large, that people who are inside and who are outside, we need to understand that those boundaries are porous and crossed all the time. And we need to actively resist the idea that if you put people away and out of sight, if you dehumanize them to that extent, then you can forget about them. And so when i went to visit the place and perhaps some of you have seen it is literally a former plantation even bigger than the island of manhattan. And the first thing you see when you go in there are guards on horseback who supervising black and brown men who are picking cotton and okra. The tableau unchanged. And yet it is also a place where they have a golf course, where they say to people who are not incarcerated, please come and sit at our wonderful 18th hole restaurant after youve played your golf and look upon this is a leisure leisure to look out upon this place. So i thought it very important to to include that in this Conference Mission which is also about ultimately all of our humanity and when you talk about storytelling and this, to give you a sense of the power of art, ill read this small section. I want to tell you about, Herman Wallace. He was convicted of armed robbery, sent to angola in 1971. Once there, he established the angola chapter of the black panther with ronald ellsworth, Albert Woodfox and gerald bryant. After permission. The angola panthers organized to improve conditions in the prison, which made them targets of the administration. In 1972, a white prison guard named brant miller was murdered angola. By 1974, wallace and woodfox were convicted for. The murder of the murder without one shred of physical evidence linking them to the crime. And they were put along. Robert king in solitary confinement where they were held for more than 40 years, the longest period anyone has been held in, solitary confinement in American History until their release was secured. Now, here to the the hardest part, the artist Jackie Sumell learned who is white, by the way, learned of wallaces story in 2001 and shortly thereafter to him commencing a 12 year friendship during which they exchanged over 300 letters and many phone calls when she was an mfa student at stanford, she received the assignment asking a professor to describe their most exorbitant dream home in order to study spatial relations ships. And she said that what she wanted to do, thinking about dynamics of race, wealth and privilege which was to turn to herman rather than a stanford and ask the seemingly simple question, what kind of house does a man who has lived in a six foot, six foot by nine foot box for almost 30 years, dream of. And over the ensuing months, they communicated. They wrote. He she designed the house. He described for a black panther on the bottom of a swimming pool. Photographs of black heroes, a bar with martini glasses, a library with books about black liberation, and an iconic seventies fur throw across the bed. She drew the house he dreamed she built a of the house that he and while she was working on the house, his conviction overturned Herman Wallace was released from prison. He visited with sumell and his family and celebrated his freedom and died three days later. And so sumell finished hermans house as a movable work of art and has toured it in art spaces around the country and continues to keep Hermans Legacy alive through the solitary gardens project, where solitary confinement cells are turned into equally sized garden beds. Incarcerated prisoners in solitaire confinement designed the gardens plant life and tend to them in with those on the outside. It started and here im reading with a question. A man who lived 41 years in solitary confinement for a crime he not commit before i saw angola prison myself and walked where the tens of thousands of human beings whose lives have been affected by it lived. Artists showed me so and more of us can know about this because the art sees for us and carries traces of the lives of the human beings who are remembered by their loved ones and who we cannot turn away from. And the chapter ends. What you picture when you picture your home and you know to the line that you quoted, which is the title of the chapter, we dress our ideas in clothes to make the abstract visible. That was something that was spoken in what was called a Meditation Group that visited where for people again, 90 of the people there will die. There. Do reading and writing over just a six week period. And i visited that class and listened to the men talk and when i heard that phrase, it literally pulled me into that circle because i thought, i am a teacher. And in one of my classrooms, if someone spoke that line, i would say, tell me more. Thats an incredible phrase. What do you mean . Yeah. And whats so interesting this dovetails perfectly into my next question. And for people, were going to have questions and answers q a. And theres a microphone right there. So people want to start lining up in a few minutes, well have q a. You know, you write so well, elizabeth, about emotion and feelings. And i want to talk about that in terms how can these emotions pain, joy, grief, love, inform, perhaps even transform them the way in which we view, narrate and discuss race, democracy, humanness in america . Because so much of what youre talking about really is universal but done through the particular, specific lens of the black literary, cultural, political, Human Experience in america and globally. Yeah, i mean, i think. I feel like every day i try to move with empathy, you know, to feel with not to feel for, but, you know, theres a bringing together that i think is part of empathy. And i think to whatever extent thats something that i can do, whether its in the classroom, its in our work. Anywhere we go, there is too much is meant to close us off from feeling for each other. Because if we really felt for each other, there would be no angola prison under those conditions. If we really felt for each other, none of us, no one here, none of us could say that someone should be solitary confinement on a plantation for 41 years for a crime they didnt commit. None of us would say that there should be any place on earth where 90 of the people who enter will die. It actually goes against very american ideas. Rehabilitation or of what it means to take responsibility for harm. You know, where there is harm. I think that without that work, there is too much that will drive us apart from each other and i think, you know, our society i think we know this is in a profound, early divided moment. And i think ultimately the the results of that division is that or how i think about what i can do about that division is Everything Possible . And here i think art has a superpower. Art can make you cry. What can make you cry . Art can make you behold with wonder. Art can make feel. So i. I think it is. I think it is the superpower, or at least the superpower that i can share with folks to enable us to always act on our common humanity. And so that leads me to another about hope and. This will be my next to last question for going to q a. In terms of hope, i reading this, i both felt hopeful, but i also felt that there were times that you as a mother, as a writer, were saying that, hey, in my lifetime, i dont think that were going to see the level of justice that i had hoped in an earlier iteration. So i wanted talk about that. Yet you still have enormous hopes for your sons for this this beloved community. So how hopeful you what kind of hope it is that mariam carver talks about hope as a discipline . We get the hope through doing the work of social justice and activism and equity. So how are you feeling at this, this moment . Yeah, i mean. Well, i think your question kind of encompasses how im feeling. You know, i mean, that hope is a practice, but blind hope is not useful. I think that, you know, again, Something Else that art exemplifies for us is that more than one thing can be true. At the same time, we can be despairing, we can be rageful and still be able to identify, move towards light. In fact, sometimes it is a state of consciousness, a state of rage that makes you move towards light. I think that is a necessity because i think that otherwise at some point this life we wear down and i think that we just cant have that for our children. But at the same time, we have to equip our children with knowledge and history and Critical Thinking and back to the Cross Generational conversation. Think what gives me hope is when i see examples across the generations of people saying, you know, how did you how did you get there . What what went wrong . What went right . How would you do it differently . And with the energy of young people, you know, they have something to learn, too. And so to bring to marry that, i think, is what keeps me hopeful. Because there is always learning to be done. So i dont think its a contradiction. My final question is, i love the chapter and these chapter titles. There are black people in the future i want you to talk about that, because i think thats very, very hopeful. It was funny because i love sci fi and fantasy and sometimes we are not in the future or past. So its also provocative, subversive. You know, im thinking about game of thrones basically had no black people in it. Now house of the dragon does. But you know, a lot of times when sci when were there, people say, lord the rings, theyre like, theres no black people, lord of the rings, you know . And its like, no, yes, were we should be right, because were everywhere. So black people, the future. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, i mean, i think it starts with this, you know from a lot of our great black women writers from and discussion from Lucille Clifton from audre lorde idea that we were not meant to survive and thrive. You know that when black people were to this country in the status of chattel slaves with the the status of 3 5 human beings, 3 5 human beings, we were not brought here to thrive independently. We were brought here to build a nation and increase the wealth and comfort of others. And here we are. And not only here we are, here we are. When you look at our writers and you look at our creativity i would argue that the powerful voices for, our full humanness, the most powerful voices, having faith, democracy, even when democracy does not fully serve us, have come from black writers. And i think, you know, i say at the end, artists make radical solutions all day long. So there black people in the future. Is borrowed from an artist named alicia who made huge billboards. That said, there are black people, the future and the provocation of that is first to take us back to wow, you know, we werent to survive, but were still here. Second to all of the wonderful sci stuff that you know that i dont know that all that world but but to say like we are not just imagined but if not imagined, then how can we be, you know, always imagine us in place and that we will continue to survive, but with the edge of what does it mean to assert that survival is not a given . Yeah. You know, as Lucille Clifton says, you know wont you celebrate with me that something has tried to kill me and failed . So in just those lines like, wont you celebrate . To me its an invitation to anybody who reads poem. Come with me. Join, celebrate. But theres the surprise of the poem. You know, something has tried kill me and failed. So i think that the artists and the poets do it better, say it better. One of my great hopes for this book is that people will read it who want to learn more and see more in the culture and be provoked and enlightened have, you know, deep and powerful. Okay, great. Thank you. Okay, cool. Professor, is this on . Is on. There you go. Now it is. Yeah. Professor, thank you. For than a decade since the book the new jim crow by Michelle Alexander for no relation. Weve been talking about mass incarceration the convict labor system in mass incarceration as a continuation of jim crow of jim crow. And yet, the day after tomorrow, tens of millions americans whove been bombarded with messages about crime and about policing and about 2020 violence will taking to the polls. How do how do you understand . How should we and by the way, in race and, the racial subtext of these messages is so thin that i believe lee atwater and Willie Horton would blush. Yeah. Yeah. How do you the backlash, how should we understand it . And how far will it go before were able to kind of move forward again . Yeah. I mean that is that is that that is where we are. And, you know, its i live in new york city and, you know, theres been some crime very, very dramatic and scary on the subway. People getting pushed on the subway. Thats scary. But the new york city subway is still a miracle. That gets millions of people where they to go and where you not necessarily more likely, unfortunately, to be a crime victim than any number of other places. The response and a lot of you know, as with so many other places, there is a Mental Health crisis in. New york city and the covid years that we have been through. You know, as know peoples Mental Health, in fact, more fragile and the ties of society are more frayed. Now so, you know, how do you think about what we heard from our was im going to create im a tell you the number in a minute x more beds in Mental Health facilities and. Im going to put x more police on the subways in new york city. You know, for all the zillions of people who live there, 50 more beds. That does nothing in new york city and over policing. So, you know, these children been talking about, you know. They now say were anxious on the subway, not because the people who are going to push us on the tracks, but because of all of these police who have been charged but who have been charged with for something that theyre not trained to solve, for that were not actually solving where the problem is. So having a lot of Police Officers standing around, you know, look at it does not solve the problem. So, you know i like that the word, you know radical, means at the root and thats where i just keep thinking, you know, as an educator, the critical that lets us you know when facing real problems like you know real vulnerabilities and real, you know, crime and harm to analyze it at the root, you know, we get people scared and then we and heres the bandaid, but we havent analyzed it at the root. So, you know, so then i say Critical Thinking, Critical Thinking, Critical Thinking. And how accept sort of one by one, by one how to solve for that, i just turn to our our educator. Yeah. Thank you. Next question. Okay. I want to find out where he was talking. Okay. If you could come a little closer. Hard to hear you. Can you hear this . Yes. Thank you so much. I have great compassion for the story you said to spread about it. Was herman, is that correct . But i am a pragmatist and im familiar with lock up. Not personally. I just see that, you know, that idealistic how. It could be designed for these people that are in angola as a group. And im sure that even though herman was obviously a victim of the system, there probably are people in that that are so dangerous that we cant exactly feel sorry for them in terms of just letting them have a different. What would your ideal house be for that situation where they could have a a kinder life and have property unities to be different . Not expecting them to be know to automatically be Mental Illness or escape from what theyve grown up with. But in the sense theyre i know that theyre i think it was it may have been holland it is they take their prisoners out and they let them live in the forest. Theyre contained and they are watched and they are fed and they are. But there isnt. Oh, you have to punish them. Okay, theyre done. Thank you. I would. Got it. Yes. Yeah. And i would just say a couple of things. One is, what is our responsibility as a society to ourself, really . Not just to those people, but to ourselves. What do we think, for example, you know, as an educator and in my work at the mellon foundation, we fund humanities in higher education, right . Because we believe absolutely understand thinking that learning is freeing, that if you can learn and imagine and learn how to solve problems and understand how analyze whats not equal in our society, then that equips you to be a productive person in society. We that the distribution of of of resources is unfair in this society. So to me all the questions that come long before incarceration are what is our social compact . What do we want our governments to do for everybody . And then how do we again understand that there is no those people over and these people out here . I think that if i could wave the magic wand to change thinking that regard. I think the way that we would approach questions about incarceration might be very, very different because solving these problems, i think, happens long before the system. And i think that, you know, our societies need to do better for each other because through no fault of their own, there are many people who dont have the resources that they need to be able to make Productive Lives and i want that for everyone. Okay, last question. So very early process visited the city. Most know the patients that were out in the city every and theres not really million uninsured in that. Mm hmm. You see, for a lot of people, were are at some point 40, but so many of us are burnt out and traumatized from experience. In austin, we watched friend Garrett Foster murdered by a right wing vigilante. We lost teenager was blinded by being back rounds. We watched our friends beaten and broken by police violence. And for what . I mean, Police Budgets at record highs. And were in the middle of a severe backlash against racial justice. So my question is, what advice can you give the many members of the trayvon generation that feel burnt out and decent with our ability to actually make a difference . Wow. Thank you so much for that. Not just for that question, but for for sharing your expose and the experience of of of your community. And, you know, burn out from trying to make change is so very, very real, you know, not to kind of hit the same message on the head, but this is once again where i feel that, you know, multi Generational Community with people who have the i mean, you know, i think about my parents and, my father who just passed in july, who was a warrior for social justice, a warrior and for him to having worked so hard to see what has felt like the deep backlash of the country of the last at the end of his life. You know, thats a weariness, a sorrow, because he and his people. And theres a beautiful movie called king in the wilderness that i would recommend to you made by the filmmaker peter kunhardt. And its about the last year in dr. Kings life. You must see this film, and its told from the perspective of people who were his comrade who were still living and theres footage weve never seen before of dr. King playing with the children before. Gets picked up the next morning to be taken to memphis and about weariness and the weariness his comrades but how they found laughter and took care of each other. So i think that that continual taking care of each other and and hearing the lessons across generations is a something we can do. And i think that also in any movement, you know, its smart movements. Theres that sense where okay you send out, you know, these people are on this particular frontline and these people are doing this kind of work and then you switch it, right . Because not can be frontline. Some people are frontline people and some people are back the house people who are doing logistics. So i think that just, you know, the continual study of what hasnt always worked but has at least been philosophic good in other moments of the the civil rights struggle and to love other and take care of each other and, you know, theres a lot of im sure a lot of youve seen it. I found it very powerful. The whole movement for black rest thats coming now, you know, and the idea that, you know, first we toiled as enslaved people, then we toiled as sharecroppers. Then we toiled trying to make it when we were, you know allowed to go to the schools and like do a little bit more, then we toiled to try to bring other people along with us. Were exhausted. And yet somehow all the people who built the nation have a stereotype of being lazy. How did that happen . How did that happen . So i do i do think that i appreciate this language of you know and you had was in a conversation recently with someone it was in a religious setting and he said he said its a commandment. Its a commandment. So i do think rest and restoration are very, very important. So i wish that for you. All right. We are out time. Were going to end on that note. Elizabeth alexander, the trayvon generation, thank you all. Thank you so much. Thank you both. People right outside. Its a read. Its a must read. Thank you. I enjoyed conversation. Thank you. Feedback. For. And book tvs coverage of. The texas book festival. Well continue in a moment. Manhattan Institute Senior fellow and author of criminal injustice manguel argued that defund the police and introducing more leniency in the criminal Justice System would disproportionately harm black and brown americans. Heres a portion of his talk. So now, if if im being honest, my of accomplishment, i think, makes me a bit uneasy. And the reason for that is, that its in tension with the reality thats always animated. My work on these issues the issues that im here to discuss and that reality is that this isnt about me tonight. This book, the debate, it contributes to our first and foremost about the far too many victims of the sort of injustice is that inspired. My books title. Injustices like the 2019 murder, detailed in the books introduction of a young, unarmed chicago allegedly shot by a parolee. Nine prior felony conviction, including one for Second Degree murder. Injustices like the little boy was forced to run for his life in that same earlier this summer backpack to as he dodged bullets meant for the of young men. He made the mistake walking past at the time. Injustices like the young woman police say was stabbed to death in her Lower East Side apartment earlier this year by a homeless criminal with not one, not two, but with three open cases. And finally, the incredibly strong woman who was robbed of her husband, detective jason rivera, a man many of us watched her eulogize after he and his partner, wilbert moore, were murdered by a repeat offender out on probation. I wrote this book largely because i was tired of reading stories about the heinous crimes carried out by offenders who had no business being out on the street, stories that the data make clear are not outliers. And i wanted to do something about it a desire that only grew as i watched 2020 unfold in the wake of George Floyds murder and all of the unrest and political grandstanding that followed it. Politicians and activists saw to the enactment of a wave of policy proposals that were explicitly aimed at systematically lowering the transaction costs of crime. Commission and raising the transaction costs of Law Enforcement. According to the New York Times, more than states collectively passed, more than 140 Police Reform bills in the year following George Floyds. This was an unprecedented acceleration of a trend that had been slowly taking shape since at least 2010. And to my mind, the acceleration of this policy agenda going to do real damage to Public Safety, particularly in the communities reformers say they wanted to help. Hence the subtitle with the push for decarceration and de policing gets wrong and who it hurts most. So i was entirely unsurprised when 2020 saw homicides spike 30 across the United States, the largest one year increase in generations. And i remained unsurprised by the fact that between 2020 and 2021, more than a dozen cities set all time records for homicides and more than a dozen more cities flirted with their 1990 peaks over the last several years. Serious Violent Crime shootings, homicides in particular, became a much larger problem here america, but not one whose effects are evenly distributed throughout our society. Criminal violence has long been both geographically and demographically hyper concentrated. Here in new york, about three and a half percent of street segments, about 50 of the citys Violent Crime. And every year for well over decade, a minimum of 95 of all shooting victims in the city are either black or hispanic. The vast majority of the male. Uncomfortable as it make people in certain circles, youll see similar disparities in the statistics of shooting suspects nationally, black males constitute between six and 7 of the population, but make up but are murdered at nearly times the rate of their white counterparts. And crimes like homicide are tightly clustered in the relative handful of neighborhoods in and around american cities. For example, in 2019, the National Murder rate was five per 100,000. The ten most dangerous chicago neighborhoods on the other hand, which are 95. 7 black or latino. 2019 homicide rate was a whopping 61. 7 per 100,000. It was high as that number is. It actually how dangerous some of those neighborhoods actually are . West garfield park, for example, had a 2019 murder rate of 131 per 100,000. Now my book highlights data like these two reasons. First, i think a thorough of how violence is and has long been concentrated helps us understand exactly who it is that will suffer most should a particular policy program diminish Public Safety and biological extension who it is that will gain the most should a particular policy enhance Public Safety . Which takes us to the second reason i highlight these data the reality of crime concentration can help contextualize some of the disparities in enforcement statistic that we hear so much about. Disparities that are often seized upon to make the case for mass decarceration and policing as a means of pursuing racial equity. If, in fact, the most serious crimes are occurring in very small slices of our citys and are affecting a particular Demographic Group more than others, then it is entirely reasonable for enforcement resources to be disproportionately deployed to these areas, and by extension to see disparities arise from that uneven distribution of Law Enforcement resources. In other words, we accept as legitimate the decision to police neighborhoods where. Victimization rates are highest. We must also accept as legitimate that police are going to interact disproportion innately with the people spending time in neighborhoods and to focus on the disparate rate of interactions in a vacuum is to ignore really important context that when accounted for, undermines the assertion that Law Enforcement disparities are driven exclusively by racial. Another example of this very thing can be found in the studies. Racial disparities in incarceration, which show that when you control for the type and severity of the crime committed, as well as for the age and criminal histories of the offenders in question, the Racial Disparities and sentencing shrinks substantially leading us to the same conclusion drawn by the National Academies of sciences and the 2014 meta analysis of the literature on disparities in incarceration, which i will quote verbatim quote racial bias and discrimination are not primary causes of disparities in sentencing decisions or rates of imprisonment overall, when statistical are used to take account of events, characteristics, prior records and personal characteristics. Black defendants are, on average sentenced somewhat, but not substantially more severely than whites. Context analyzing the data that inform our criminal justice debate is a major theme of this book because placing the data their proper context often mutes the rhetorical impact of some the harshest critiques of american criminal justice. Watch the full program anytime online at book tv dot org. Just search. Rafael manguel, or the title of his book, criminal in. Youre watching tv for a complete television schedule. Visit book tv dot org. You can also follow along behind the scenes on social media at book tv on twitter, instagram and facebook. Julio rosas Senior Writer for townhall talked about his coverage of antifa during the summer of 2020 protests and argues Mainstream Media failed to report on how destructive they were. Heres a portion of the program. When i got i got to minneapolis. I mean this was after they had set fire to some buildings surrounding the third precinct because they couldnt they the officers were still defending their precinct because thats where Derek Chauvin and the other officers involved in that situation were based out of. Yeah. And i get down there and it was i mean, it was it was anything ive ever seen before because id been so used to protests not affecting the blocks surrounding the incident, you know. There were some fights and things can get rowdy, but i can go two blocks over and get something. A mcdonalds. But this. This. I mean, was open. Every place. Especially in south minneapolis was either closed or they they were they were being looted actively. So i get there and across the street from the third precinct there, a strip mall with a target with the cub foods, which is kind of like a in which the Grocery Store chain out there and theres some several Small Businesses and strip mall and people were just going in and out just nonchalantly looting because usually when especially in the first like theres like a black friday shopping day, people just rush in and panic. But by this time because i mean, theres no fear because whos going to stop . And the cops are still holed up on the cross street side. So its very just im just Walking Around taking photos and video and it was just weird and and yeah, people were still outside the third precinct. They were theyre are peaceful. They were upset. They were very vulgar. You know they would shout fyou and and play, you know, f the police and all this all this stuff. And so they were animated. They were the emotions were high, but they didnt do anything. They were peaceful. And i, i the reason why i was so distinct with making the different but making the difference between the the members of the community and generally there are older there is even a church group that showed up about halfway through the day they set up like a table and with a band they were giving out snacks and water and stuff like that and they were preaching peace and love and all this stuff. And i remember sitting down because id been standing and walking for 4 hours and i was just trying to, you know, collect my thoughts and trying to coordinate with town hall on on what to do with the tweets that were sending. And i was on my phone for, for about a solid 15, 20 minutes. And then thats when it was getting dark in the summers. And i remember looking up from my phone and i just didnt notice the immediate difference in who the crowd was and what the church group was gone. All the older people were leaving. It was a younger crowd. They were dressed differently. They were dressed like in black bloc. They were wearing bandanas instead of the surgical masks. I mean, it was such a stark difference, even just not paying attention for for that short amount of time. And so thats when i realized that, oh, okay, this is going to get out again. Watch the full Program Online anytime at book tv dot o. Just search julio rosas or the title of his book. Fiery, but mostly. Book to se coverage of the texas book festival in austin continues now. A pleasant. Sorrow to be one of the first. Good afternoon and welcome. Thank you so much for being here this afternoon. My name is Diana Anzaldua and i am a licensed clinical social worker and trauma biologist. And i am here to introduce two amazing women Elizabeth Cummins munoz with her book mother coin the story of immigrant around us. Yes. And and also Elizabeth Farfan Santos undocumented motherhood conversations on love, trauma and, Border Crossing and so im going to let both of these lovely women introduce themselves. So well start with. Hi, im Elizabeth Cummins munoz and i am a writer and a teacher. I live in houston. My background is actually in literature. Literary studies and analysis and. Im a mother and i am elizabeth Ivonne Santos and, also a writer. My background is in medical anthropology. I you know, i touch on lot of issues related to health, illness and the body. I teach these issues also in the College Medicine at the university of houston. And some of that comes out in my work. Yes. Thank you so much. So both are going to read just a small excerpt from their book. So we can start with elizabeth. So im actually going to read the first few pages from, the introduction, which begin immediately with a question that is central to this book and to the conversations that i had with the women who are featured in it. Yeah. Yeah. Im turn it up just for a closer. Yes. Okay. My good. Okay. Okay. What is a mother worth laugh. Riot park is a small playground tucked into a corner of a houston neighborhood known for its Family Friendly spaces. Two story stucco and brick homes in the center. An oak tree stretches its branches, the play equipment and old swing set a sandbox bordered by stacked wooden logs. A playhouse with stairs worn concave by of sneakers and sandals and, bare feet climbing each rung. The live oak hovers over the place, older than the climbing ladder or the squeaky swings, or the quiet city street beside it. It is a protective presence, shielding from the suffocating heat of a houston summer or the cold wind of a january afternoon. An old iron bench in the shape of a square surrounds the thickest part of the trees trunk so that a tired caregiver weary of the heat, the sun or the work of the day might lean back against the oaks rough bark and watch the children play. On a cool january afternoon several years ago, i took a place on this bench next to a woman i call sara and i asked her to tell me about her life. At 25, sara carried years heavy on her shoulders as children in el salvador. She and her younger sisters watched mother leave to migrate north for work in the private homes of texas. At 14, she herself left village and schooling and girlhood behind to follow the same path. For over a decade, she has cleaned the homes of this city looked after little ones, walked its dogs. She has missed her own Childrens School celebrations and after School Homework and spent long summer days chasing after flushed blond cheeks and picking up shorts and bathing from bathroom floors while her own children waited for her in the care of others. A district neighbor and ambivalent aunt sara has bought a house and sent her children to good schools. She has supported grandparents and younger sister back home for years. She has asked herself if her mothers choice was the right one. She doesnt think so. Theres been so much pain, but then the house, the education, the hope. After about 2 hours of conversation, my children, hers begin to whine and call for us cheeks chapped, cold, burrowing in beneath unzipped jackets and discarded as the sun falls behind the line of wild legacy from sarah as son and daughter climb into an old suv mine, into a worn minivan and we each go back to our homes and our dishes and our bills and our laundry into the hopes and fears and uncertainties that will carry us into the night. For me, one question eclipses the others. How much is a mother worth . There are deep and complicated truths at the of this question. Some of these have to do with the distance between what society says about its mothers and how it treats them. Others have to do the way a culture teaches its children that value is dispersed differently among its various groups. The in the poor, the fair in the dark the masculine and the feminine. And how those children grow to reproduce same cultural value system in some part of the truth of, a mothers worth lies deep in her own chest, in the place where society is words and actions and a cultures value lessons meet the truths she alone come to know at this Meeting Place of world in women, a sense of selfimage urges. Though i did not know it at the time when i invited sara to tell me her life that day in Lafayette Park, the story she told expressed own sense of self. Saras narrative, painted the portrait of a woman conflict and wary, proud and overwhelmed by the limits placed on her good intentions. As a caring nanny, a selfless mother, and a dignified worker, its been over a decade since i began asking women like sara for their stories. Ive heard many and many more. Each is unique, as the woman who told it. Yet all of them bound up in the complicated question value as it pertains to motherhood, Domestic Work, and the ideological minefields of immigration policy. Despite the womens individual, the stories they tell reveal a common almost choose among limited options and carry the burden of choice alone as. They live out the consequence of their choices. They all encounter the public lessons that dark skinned women learn about whose needs first and that immigrants learn about the power of status to deny basic humanity and within the private spaces of homes, much like the two story stickers that surround Lafayette Park each woman negotiate culture and language and intimacy and livelihood in the shadows of an unregulated industry defined by the unique vulnerabilities of paid care work. Together, these theme and common themes tell the story of immigrant nannies in this country, thinking. Thank you. And now we have a small excerpt from elizabeth. Its thank you, elizabeth. As reads and i think that the the piece that im going to read is from a chapter called what sickness . And it has to do with the ways in which the traumatizing experiences of migration show up in the body, and particularly for mothers from mexican mothers. Its a conversation about the worth of a mother and the worth women in general. In our society, i think particular relief will connect very well to what elizabeth. Just read. Right now i am sick. I have a sickness. Quijano akita. Its a sickness in my bones. I get sudden pains in my joints. Some days its worse than others. But the pain is always there. Despite that, i still get up at five in the morning and make lunch for my daughters bathed them and take them to school. Everything. A lot of times i just have to do it all like that with pain and everything. And my mind, for example, has to say what enfermedad what sickness . Because i have obligations. The sickness in my bones is some. Its called febrile. Febrile a bit fibromyalgia. I asked. Yes, Something Like that. They discovered i had it like five months ago. I went to the doctor because i didnt feel well. I felt really bad. I would get a lot of fevers. And i had so much pain in my bones, i would get chills and i just couldnt stand it my head would hurt so bad. I would get hit with with a pain right here. And then this whole side of my body would hurt. But see, ms. And then we. Man, i had been feeling that way for a long time. So one day i just said, no, no more. I was driving and the headache hit me and i felt dizzy, like i wanted to vomit and pass out. So that was when i went to the doctor and told him everything i was feeling. The doctor gave me some medicine and at first it helped control the pain. I thought, okay, now i feel better. But with my body, my body just wouldnt receive the treatment. According to the centers for Disease Control and prevention, common of fibromyalgia are pain and stiffness all over the body. Headaches, migraines. Fatigue, tingling or numbness. Digestive issues. Depression and anxiety. Claudia recalled that she had been diagnosed with fibromyalgia only a few months before our conversation. It made me wonder how long she may have been dealing with the symptoms, or how long shed been undiagnosed, and how fibromyalgia may have affected her mothering. In the months after she had arrived in the United States, as i did more research on the illness, i read that there werent really any definitive answers as to what might caused fibromyalgia. But there are some theories and associations. Most of the i read concluded that symptoms of fibromyalgia often begin after traumatic, physical or psychological experience, and women are more likely develop it. I thought back to claudias migration story. The she felt to leave fleeing everything and everyone she knew. The multiple failed attempts to cross the river, the fear of drowning all the time she had to say goodbye to, not the and leave her with coyotes. The fear what might happen and of possibly seeing her daughter again. The guilt putting her in the care of strangers. I thought about how claudias body shoved into the roof, fairing an 18 wheeler truck. The terror she felt when she was caught and left in the desert with a strange man and then threatened with death and raped by the people who were supposed get her safely across the border. I thought about her being caught by immigration and thrown in a detention center. The fear of being erased of having no way to contact her family and call for help. The extreme cold and the humiliation of not having the privacy to fulfill basic human needs, such as using bathroom. Even after all of that, she kept trying to cross. She had to for not be. I thought about how claudia was stuffed inside of another truck. Dozens of other people she didnt know. Men crammed in like sardines. How she had to listen. A woman being raped and wait in horror to see if she would be next. How she had try as hard as she could to be quiet and invisible so she wouldnt be caught by immigration. And so she wouldnt stand out to the men. I thought about her walking across the in the middle of the night, stepping over and snakes terrified of lagging and getting separated from the group. Her feet destroyed, bleeding and blistered, exhausted and barely able to walk. Yes, i thought to myself, that sounds like a pretty traumatic physical and psychological experience, or rather experiences multiple repeated cons and traded the body records trauma, the Collateral Damage of migration that was forever into claudias body. I think about how it would feel to have anything carved into my body. Of course it would hurt, but with the pain linger and vibrate for days, years would i feel the pain deep in my bones. In my joints, the parts of my that stitch me together and make me. Would i get migraines, get so overwhelmed by the pain that i would fall into deep despair, into depression. I dont think claudia, the connection between her fibromyalgia symptoms and her migration. When i asked her if she ever thought about it, she seemed surprised at first, then pensive, like maybe it made sense. Ken sarowiwa . She asked, as though a connection been made. But it was all too much to think about. Another word for trauma can be sustained. My grandmother took suharto very seriously. She taught me that when you experience a traumatic event, your spirit is jolted out of your body, frightened away, leaving you disoriented and vulnerable. If you dont take care to recover your frightened spirit, your body remains defenseless, more open and more susceptible to additional harm, including illness. Over and over. Claudia referred to her migration story as horrible. Fail. I think she understood that it was a traumatizing experience. But from what she shared me, she hadnt name the trauma the suicidal or taking the time to begin her spirit to call it to her body. Thank you. Thank you for that. You know that this paints this book. You know, it paints a very real picture about the trauma that people endure during their their migration here. Cant hear you. So. And you know i think that this a very real conversation about how trauma can really impact the body. Right. And where we that and how generationally trauma can really impact the body especially when we when we look at the stories of these women who, you know, spend a lot of time trying to get here. So is there anything more that you want to say about about the trauma that that claudia experienced . Or what was that like for you to hear some of what she was saying . Yeah, sure. I think so. I spent a lot of time, several years interviewing this particular subject, who i call claudia garcia. And, you know, for me, im always connecting all of the different experiences that affect our health. Right . So we know that despite what western medicine tells us that illness and health are not individual conditions that just live in the individual body. And she does kind of deal with on your own. These are very much social and cultural and political. Theres any better time to understand this. Its the pandemic. How connected. Our health is to our environment. And so one of the things that as i was listening to claudia, i was making these connections. I was listening to her talk about the things that she was experiencing. And one thing that i say earlier in the chapter is that it took a long time and it took a lot of rapport building before i could even talk to claudia about her own health. A lot of the conversations with her and with other women that i interviewed focused on their children and these women had, copious detailed accounts of the care that they had for their children in terms of taking them to their doctor, getting them cared for, getting their checkups. You know, they they have, as i think anyone whos a mother in the tent knows, you know, that we take our children to the doctor and we have these things there that are on these schedules in our brain. We know when they need to go. We know how theyre you know, when theyre feeling. We can see it. And it took me really being listening to her through those experiences and how important and concern she was for. Her daughters health. Her daughter, who is i call not the natalia in the book is is deaf. And so she is trying to find access to her daughter so that she can get her hearing devices in the surgery that she needs for hearing implants. And so a lot of the journey is about interacting with specialists, interacting with hospitals to be able to get her that access she needs. So its only after that that i can actually have a conversation her about her health. And then it comes in a way that is very matter fact. It is very, you know, well, this is happening to me and i just have to deal with it because people depend me and i have to keep going and. I dont always have money to go to the doctor. I dont always have somebody to watch my kids and so thats just how it is. And im, you know, trying to make these connections, right. That she isnt necessarily making, although i think she does feel them as im speaking with her. Right. Right. Yes. Very important pieces, you know, in your book that that you cover. And also that we need to keep talking about. Right. So im curious, elizabeth, what what was your for the book . Ill that i also just want to say that i really appreciated when i read elizabeth that you said very specifically that you had learned your research and in your interviews that couldnt ask women about them and their experience until you had given them that space to talk about their role as a mother mother. I really appreciated that. So my inspiration for the book started in the park taking care of my children. I had at the time two very small children, one of whom is much older and grown up or now in the row and they look hispanic because. My husband is hispanic and. I spoke spanish to them and in the park. The nannies became sort of more curious. They were there were just the park was generally filled in the mornings with nannies taking care. American children. And little by little, we started to greet each other and say hello. And then they started to ask about my children if they were my children, what was really going on there. And it really just kind of opened the door to have conversations about who was taking care of, whom. And in this world that we were all living and how we were negotiating in different languages and across cultures. But it did take some time for me to. Find the courage to say, okay im going to ask these women if we can, if we can do this, if we can have these conversations, and i can somehow translate it into stories others can read so they can know these womens stories way i know them and learn to see care and the communities that we create around care in the way that i have learned to see them. Yeah. Thank you. And what was your im curious, elizabeth, what was . Your inspiration. Yeah. So actually, this book is started as part of a Larger Research on Health Access for communities. I was doing research. I started the research right the time when the Affordable Care act was being put into into play. And very clearly and very vocal verbally and vocally undocumented immigrants were excluded from all aspects of that policy and it was such a Pivotal Moment in the history medical policy, at least in my lifetime we hadnt seen any kind of health care reform. It was really fascinating for me to see. Also, it was a president that was particularly about hope and using social justice when talking about health care reform. And so i wanted to know that experience was kind of hearing themselves be vocally excluded. Also, you know, i grew up, me and my siblings, my family, we grew up in the Public Health system and so we benefited greatly from know chip and medicaid and these kinds of programs that were really beneficial for our family. So ive always had a very, you know, and ive always good things from my family about how those programs helped us growing up. So, you know, i started went out to clinics i was working in Community Clinics and the goal was not to interview mothers, actually, it was to talk to immigrants about this experience of marginalization and in the health care system. But much like elizabeth, you know, in these clinics, i quickly found that it was mothers and children were in the clinics taking their kids to doctor. Right. That seems very obvious now. Women across racial and ethnic groups tend to be the health agents, navigators for their families. And so its not odd that this was primarily women and clinics. And as i started talking to women know, they didnt really want to talk about, you know, policies or the politics or the exclusion. They wanted to talk about their kids. Right. And they wanted to talk about their experience aces. And it was really interesting and important me to to engage these stories, because theres a lot of discussion in the media around, immigrants in particular, latino immigrants, as kind of bad patients, you know, that dont go to the doctor. They dont take care of their health and that arent engaging properly. Right. And, you know, when you talk to mothers, you get a totally different story. You get subjects that are not only incredibly engaged but have a are also incredibly in their interactions with the Public Health system. Because if you think about being an undocumented subject, the amount of documentation that you have to and the visibility that comes up when youre engaging any kind public services, resources and Community Clinics, even in private clinics, you have to reveal much private information about your family, where you live, how many people are in your family. All of this documentation out there, its a really kind of contest. The idea of undocumented. And, you know, that takes a lot of and mothers are doing that. And in that process i i interviewed a lot of mothers it got more and more interested in the story. I met gloria who a really interesting and dynamic subject, who was interested in telling more of her life than some of the other mothers and wanted to engage more and later, actually, i discovered once we started, i started meeting with her one on one and discovered that our children actually went to the same school and were in similar classrooms. And so we had we had, you know, less degrees of separation and even after that and when i started talking her and really thinking about this book as separate from that and more kind of academic work, it really became more about claudia story starting to open up my own experiences and memories of my own family and myself growing up in an immigrant family with a father who was briefly undocumented and my moms as well. My mom is chicana, american born. But, you know, lived in an immigrant family. And so her mothering. And in the book i write, you know her her going across the border to the other side. So she decides to go to mexico to be with us. Right. And to try to make a life in, mexico. And what its like. And in her words, you know, i going over there while everybody was coming here. So, yeah thank you for that. And, you know, speaking about sharing stories in your book, you talked about your story and fear of getting it wrong. And also to release that. So im curious if you wouldnt mind sharing a little bit more. What did you mean by that . Yeah. So the book is really a project in vulnerability, i think, and in Human Connection. And, you know, and its not easy to be vulnerable and. Also be a trained social scientist that wants to have the data. Correct. And its always about the ethics of the work representation and all of the things that are. Im already an overthinker, so that can just rummage around in there. So i, you know, wanted to be really honest about. It the way the conversation happened and how connecting my story came out in the process of writing. You know, when youre in conversation with somebody, you know, youre in your its a its a back and forth, right . Its a a dialectic movement of know kind of listening, being being a witness, seeing somebody story. So talk about the book as being a little bit of testimonial of of being in testimony of somebody experience and just feeling that and being present for that experience. But also recognizing that triggers stories and memories and questions. Coming up for me. And so it was in the writing that i actually decided, you, i need to talk to my mom. I to interview my mom. I need to ask her what what it was like her when we had to go live my grandmother for a few years, you know, i always just thought of it as a great experience. Never thought what she may have felt being separated from us and, you know, and so then i started those in that interview process with her and for the first time was able to actually ask her questions about her migration, which never came up because she is american right. And so it was always about my migration and i dont think she even saw herself as a migrant, you know, necessarily. Right. And thats of an odd phrasing for her. But, you know, i wanted to be honest and vulnerable and i wanted to capture as much claudias story and the emotive ness of her expression. Shes such a great storyteller on her own. And at the same time, i wanted to be honest about what happens when youre recreating somebodys story like like the of telephone. You know, you its not exactly as it started. And its important that that myth of authenticity and of the objective writer, this fly on the wall, you know, gets also displaced because theres so much Dynamic Exchange in conversation. Right. Right. Thank you for that. So, elizabeth, we just heard from liz and she talked about the importance of listening and witnessing stories. And im whats your relationship with the women . Because there were several women that you interviewed. And do you know the relationship like. Do you still talk to them . So if you wouldnt mind sharing some of that. Sure. So my relationship with these women at the time that we spoke was less complicated than it is now. The majority of them were women that i met in the park, some of them worked for people i know and some people are surprised by that. But i wanted to be very clear with them and in the book as well that my relationship with was always going to be mediated a little bit by world that i came from and, the worlds that they came from. And so what ive really done with the book more than offering the world their stories which cant be done, is ive tried to tell the story of my knowing them by because at one point i just understood that if i could do anything to help these conversations tions around immigration and around and this reductive conversation about you know personal choice and complex situations that are being really simplified to to, to the detriment of truth, honestly see if could do anything for that. It was give as many people as i could the experience of listening to them tell their stories. But its necessarily through me and through what i know, my own motherhood and honestly, at the time, you know, i had Young Children i was teaching, i doing a Doctoral Program and there was this part of me that like wished i could hire a very much so i was never very from that that piece of the, you know, this economic driver that was bringing them here and all the ways that it it becomes so inextricably connected to the love we have for our own children and the love that the nannies have for children that they had with them in the states or some of them had their children, many of them had their children at home with grandparents, with aunts. So the more, you know, abstract, as far as me knowing them now, there are few that i still keep in touch with. It was just it was really special. Be able to bring them the book. One of them one of the three main women in the book. When i gave it to her she was so happy and she said, can i can i put this on facebook . Yeah, you can put it on facebook. And shes like, can i tell people about. And i was like, absolutely. And she sort of stopped and she looked at me and she said, you know, sometimes i just feel like were a little bit invisible and and i and i heard her and listened to her. And then she said, i dont have to be a nanny. I can do. I did when i got here. But i dont have to anymore. I do this because its what i do and its important. And i love it and i just really appreciated those words so yeah absolutely you know and both books discuss the moral and sacrificial expectations motherhood and i think you both, you know have sort of alluded to this. You know, the demand of selfsacrifice, selfless sacrifice of being a mother and im curious, is there anything more that you want to you want to say about that, about this sacrificial selflessness that is sort of expected when . You become a mother. Ill just share a couple of stories that i think really bring it home. And one is a woman, sarah, one i introduce in the very opening and her mother left, when she was, i think, five. Her mother and father both. And she was living in el salvador. She ended up coming to the us when she was 14 and she had a little sister who came eventually as well. And sarah got married when she was 15. She had two children and she and she worked and she worked and she took of her children that, you know, she was hired to care for and she provided for her children at home and the theme that ran through my with her throughout was never enough never good enough always coming. And this was not surprising. And it was familiar, but one of the employers that i interview as well, who came from a very privileged place felt very ambivalent about. Her experience as an employer at the end of our meeting, she started to talk to me about her kids, and she showed me this picture of her youngest daughter. And its this picture, this little girl at like a party, the little girl sort of off to the side and she looks kind of awkward. And the other kids are just they just are cool, you know, like theyre dressed cool. And she says, you know, i let her brother take her to that party cause i was really busy. And she looks at me with tears in her eyes and she says, i should have been there. And i thanked him, you know, never enough, just never enough. So thats what i would share. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, i think that the narrative of sacrifice, you know, really is, really big in this book, you know i think that there are. One of the i think the resounding maybe purpose of the book is really to remind how much we have in common despite our differences. And i think that motherhood, one of those spaces where, you know, we can we can connect to certain aspects of the human that have to do with hope and aspiration. The worry, you know, spanish, we say bend the end and its like its similar to the never enough it seems but its that start openly and this i dont even know how to define its like to always be on observing thinking feeling concerned aware hyper aware of whats happening your children its its something that never turns off and that is you know there is so power and strength in how women care for communities and literally a particular early for undocumented communities for marginalized communities have been able to survive so much injustice because of the work mothers because of the labor of mothers who are taking men and children to doctor who are caring for these for four people. And you know because of them weve able to survive generations. Some really intense and violent forms of injustice. And at the same time being the pillars community and the world on your back is exhausting and heavy and makes you sick. And theres that aspect of it that i think so many mothers across racial and ethnic groups can connect with because we live in societies that dont value the mother work that you discussed earlier and yet are built the back of mothers work and yet its also its also very much the the feeling, you know, theres women that are like dont even want to call it work because its like a its a purpose, you know, its its a life giving purpose that you have and societies are really good at taking advantage of that. And so, you know, within so i think this goes across racial ethnic group, class groups. This concern. But for mexican women in particular, which is who i write about, there is a particular mexican feminine identity that is rooted in strength and resilience. You know, my grandmother, my my aunts, i grew up in a family, women, nine women. I was raised by nine, very strong women. And, you know, strength is a given. You know you dont let things knock you down. You keep going. Much like claudias word. You know, people depend on you. You dont you know, my grandmother used to say a lot, you dont drown in a glass of water. Angie just wrote a book titled how to not drown in a glass of water, you know . And and the idea is, you know, you dont let Little Things get you and you just keep going. And its incredible resilience and its incredible for community building. But it also means that you have women, you know, in the work that im doing with, mexican women that are not taking care of their health, that are not paying attention to their pain, that are working through pain to the point of collapse saying, you know, and thats not okay. And as im listening to gloria speak, thinking about all of the times that my mother was working through pain. So yeah, its some. You know, its about that that humanity and. So strength is important and at the same time, you know, these are you know, were human beings. And so women also need care and they also need resources. They need to be, you know, helped. We cant carry everything and i think were seeing that now so you know what society who society expects to take care of children and you know women need resources so theres a chapter in the book because its not all i dont want it all to be said you know theres also hope in our communities and ultimately i write about how mothers find community in other mothers and in you know in mexican communities we call madres and these are the women that for other women and that bring us back to health. Yeah thank you. Thank you. Elizabeth. Its its such a its such a beautiful moving book. And it gave its the vocabulary to talk about some what i was experiencing talking with these women as well but i kind of just to take something you said and contextualize it a little because i think its important to do you talked about the u. S. Sort of us being what are in our communities, being what they are because of the work of. And i think we put that in a context. Immigration that is important to highlight in it and it has to do with with the work of social reproduction. It has to do with the work of creating humans and creating Human Capital and creating labor and conversations around immigration, often ignore the economic value of the work of raising these humans. So you have situations with divided families is where all of that social reproduction is happening in the home, particularly in mexico, and then u. S. Is benefiting from the labor when we put that in a context of our care or lack care infrastructure in the United States, lack childcare infrastructure and. What youre doing is youre taking those who provide that care and who who work to and reproduce those families away. And youre leaving a care deficit in the sending countries and at the same creating a culture of mothering in this country that can behave as if that work werent as substantive and all consuming as it is. Oh, yeah, thats great. Because theyre hiring those nannies and, because its cheap labor, but theres a very real cost and all connected, thats great. Yeah, right. Yes. Thank you both. So we have a couple of questions left before we wrap up. Is there anything youre hoping the readers would take away from from your book . I will. Ill be really brief. I think a lot of what i just said, you know, i really hope that the reader able to connect to you know, their own maternal narratives, their own experiences. You know, we all come from mother at some point and that, you can, you know, connect because ultimately thats i think thats the main goal of book is that Human Connection through these experiences that we can get to if we look past just the objective of a political subject and undocumented immigrant, i echo elizabeths sentiment in the sense that i actually think of when i go and ask these questions, i have two answers. And one is that people walk away being better at, seeing the full humanity of everyone they encounter, particularly who contribute to sure create their world. But the other thing i really hope people walk away with is an increased sense of the value of like just the actual labor of mothering. It is an economically labor and it is housework, it is moving bodies and it is shepherding health care and and its ignored in macroeconomic models. Its ignored the gdp. Its ignored in policy. And it can be ignored because we have this source of cheap labor. And if readers walk away feeling that value, then i think were moving towards place where we wont ignore it anymore. Right . Yes. Thank you and again, i you know, i that you both talked about the impacts of immigration on the children because it does involve these cycles of trauma. And i know i talked about that earlier but like its so that we continue to talk about how these cycles of trauma they get and inherited really start in utero right you know and so yeah and even before right its like inherited. So i really appreciated you both talked about some of that in your book and is there anything else you want to say before we wrap up and open it up for questions . Id love to hear from the audience. Id love to hear from the audience today. Yeah. All right. Questions. Hello . Okay. Hi. I just wanted to say thank for bringing attention to your my mom was a at home daycare provider for like 20 years. So most of my life and so on of raising me and my brother. She was watching. 5 to 6 infants and toddlers from like white, affluent backgrounds. And i think growing up, i a lot of i would say shame just like embarrassment around that being my moms profession. And i got the point where i would like not invite people to come over and like i would even tell people that like my mom didnt have a job and that she just, you know, was like a stay at home. And so like i couldnt imagine what kind of effect that had on her and her perception of herself and the work shes doing to keep our family afloat. So i would really love to hear more about what youve heard through these around like the social perception, societal perception on these women and their families and pressure that put on them in terms of like the work that they do and the profession they have and like this place they hold in society and for you. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And im really sorry for experience and what i can tell you about the experience of the children of domestic and nannies is that it usually involves internal that devalued sense of the occupation and the work from a very early age. I can also tell you that it involves a fierce recognition of the value of their mothers work and sometimes and im relying very heavily on some sociological done by a woman named maria romero, who works the Adult Children of Domestic Workers. And so sometimes that doesnt until theyre older, but uniformly there is a a real in insistence on acknowledging know i am where i am today of the work my mother did because of the sacrifice, because of the care. Yeah. Think a big part of my book is really thinking about you know how claudia is experiencing motherhood as shes becoming an undocumented mother which is not something that she she chose and anybody chooses become an undocumented mother and as shes experiencing what that means in a beside kids just crossing the border and you know i talk a lot about in what comes out is a lot of guilt for the for sacrifices for the choices that she had to make along that journey, choices that were not easy situations where she had to leave her, her child in the care of others, where she didnt know what was going to happen and was just praying for the best and was concerned about that may have affected her daughter, may affect her daughter in the future. And i try a little bit because, you know, im a daughter and also a mother, im receiving her story through the perspective of thinking about my mothers experience. But also thinking about my relationship to my mother and my family as a child of immigrants. As you know, a chicana born and kind of, you know, the things that they may have experienced and im thinking a little bit about not and, you know what not they might be thinking right, i dont know. So i have a chapter where i kind of speculate a little bit on what not might be thinking what might be happening based on some of the concerns that my parents had about me and my personality, my way of being and the way i interacted with both cultures and also, you. The the guilt and the, you know, the numerous amount of that. My mom, you know, apologized a way that, you know, was wasnt necessarily apologetic but tried to explain why she made the decisions that she to make even though i understood it i was okay i knew the to the story and i think that you know theres a point where i just say know i dont know what not this experience is going be like but there are so many children of immigrants who have defied expectations. You know, an amazing ways. And what ive seen working at the university, what we see with the dreamer, with undocumented youth, you know, is are things that i dont think their parents expected. And so theres lots of and at the end of the day, theyre create that future. But they do mothers do live with that guilt in the body. And that becomes of the emotional load. It becomes part of the trauma, gets trapped in the body as it can i im just going to add one thing related to this i think part of that experience of the stigma of Domestic Work and the stigma of childcare comes from the dominant voices in feminism, in the u. S. And sort of a middle class white feminism that really chose against fighting to value this work. And one of the things that i actually really appreciate about your book, elizabeth, is you you have a moment where you really focus on mothering and the maternal body as this source of power. And i think that the more of those kinds of we can recover those kinds of traditions and speak back against these loud voices, feminism that has really allowed motherhood and housework and womens work to be ridiculed. The more were going to reduce the stigma and, you know, work towards resolving some of this trauma. Yeah, i think i think just real quick, i think its important just to kind of the that the take away the reason i do that i its important that we respect all of the different ways which women experience and with a uterus experience their uterus and their maternal identities. Right and its not the same everybody and while there, you know there are different relationships that women have to their reProductive Lives and that, you know, we are we need to remember that not everybody has the same experience. So theyre uterus to their reproductive life. And that becomes a part of how people imagine motherhood. Thank you so much. Thank you all. More round of the file weve gotten book. We have a book signing right across the street. Theres a tent and both of our lovely authors will be there signing books with beautiful you and love. Speaking about its important. Its speaking to me. So. Yeah can you take picture of you there are so you guys you guys i have a picture of a girl brothers cousin and me please. That name were not name drop into it. Yeah, its okay. I think we got. I mean, i think anything was left out. Hoover Institution Senior fellow Victor Davis Hanson that the idea of american citizenship and the ideals associated with it are in danger of disappearing. He discussed the topic with journalist megan kelley at an event hosted by the criterion magazine in new york. The book is the dying. Heres a portion of his talk that the parties each for different reasons. Kate, whatever the two parties agree on something to watch out. And they agreed open borders. The right wanted cheap labor. Originally it was agriculture, but only percent of illegal aliens. I can dare use that term work in agriculture. Now its meatpacking plants live in new york city. Theres an ordinance saying it is unlawful to use the term illegal immigrant if done with malice. You can check on that, but im pretty sure thanks to our mayor, we have that. I had a 20 year war with my syndicator because i used illegal alien and then i said it had to be illegal illegal immigrant and then it had to be undocumented immigrant. Then it had to be immigrant and then that was derogatory. So it had to be migrant because they didnt want to prejudice which direction a person going when they migrated. So its the whole fraught, the right wanted. They wanted cheap labor. The Mexican Government wanted the 30 billion and remittances. How ironic was that that people would come and be depend on entitlements in the United States to free up 200 and 300 to send back to mexico because the Mexican Government didnt care about people in walker or jobs and now its 60 billion with Central American included. And then you could argue it was a reverse Frederick Jackson turn or safety valve where people said should we march on mexico city for a redress of grievances, not lets march in the United States. So they liked it. And then left. Of course, the la raza. That was a very word because rosa from latin radical radicals, there was no la raza, the Chicano Movement at all until 50 years ago. And people dug up the franco rosa in the movie. Rosa and mussolini to the two zs and italian rosa. And they found that this blood and soil emulation of hitler that said you couldnt be italian unless you looked a certain way and you couldnt be spanish even if you were spaniard, and even if you were living in the iberian peninsula, it was very antisemitic. So they cooked up these racist terms. And then the la, the hispanic militants took that term and reinvented it for the race. Ive been attacking it so much and finally theyve changed. La raza into i think its you need those now but they wanted to change the demography. The Democratic Party looked at california and they said were never going to have a Party Governor of reagan that mention pete wilson. Even Arnolds Schwarzenegger again. And now we have no we have a supermajority in both legislatures. No statewide office is held by republican and the ninth circuit. You know, the appointees is very still very liberal despite trumps appointees. And finally, i think they felt that model could flip the electoral. So new mexicos flipped. Nevadas flipped. Colorados flipped. They feel they can flip. Georgia, arizona, i dont think theyre ever going to flip, but they believe they can. There were all these people that wanted open borders and the only people who didnt were the middle class. That said theyre lowering wages and theyre flooding. They im not supposed to use the word they either. I was told theyre flooding the emergency rooms. And i just talked to a fellow that i know very well in selma and he said, why do we want people to crowd in so my mother cant get dialysis at the Dialysis Clinic or why would we want to go back to bilingual education get rid of our advanced placement we have all these people coming in that we dont know and the fact that theyre not vaccinated. And yet dr. Has never mentioned that not once he will give a very eloquent about some poor person the middle west doesnt get vaccinated know nothing that doesnt but were bringing in an anticipated 2 million this physical year that will come across the border without the vaccination. Its almost its, almost as if the citizen is punished and the noncitizen is rewarded and that that transcends the travel. So if i one of the weirdest experiences when you come into l. A. X. Or sfo, you always see somebody that forgot their passport and they take them into that little booth and they dress them down and then they have to call and they do and they but theyre trying to make a performance art. Dont do that. And yet when you see these just come across with id at all. He he was asked if and she was asked by dana bash on cnn. You know, what about the immigrants coming across the border who arent tested who dont get the vaccine, who are just let into the country on the honor system to come back for their asylum hearing . What you. And his response was essentially the Illegal Immigrants are not the cause of the pandemic. I mean, a complete dodge. My my eight year old is not the cause of the pandemic either. But he has to have a mask on his face all day. And all three of my kids are going to have to get the vaccine whether i want them to have it or not. Yes. And i and so i think when you confuse the citizen that has responsibilities he takes on or she takes on in accordance to be granting rights versus the resident, then youre back to the fourth century or fifth century ad where you have these migratory coming across the west of the roman empire, the north and im trying to think of all the things that we used to say as citizen. It was unique to the citizen. The citizen could alone go in and out of the country at will. I think thats gone now. If youre not as is and you can go back to mexico or Central American back and forth across the border without a passport. A citizen was eligible for entitlements thats been thrown out by the courts. President is just as qualified. The citizen alone could i think theyre in school board elections. I in massachusetts i know in california are voting. The only thing i can think of that a citizen has a right over a resident legal or illegal is wholly in office. And i think thats question now too. And so if you have a just a group of people that are residents and we dont know much about them and we dont know what their customs or traditions are and were not able to assimilate or integrate or intermarry them because theyre not theyre so large in 2 million of them, and theyre going to go into enclaves. Weve done this periods with the irish and eastern european, but weve always we the host never gave up on the melting pot. Weve given the message to of this is you know, your own particular culture will no longer necessarily be incidental who you are it will be essential and so i bet it raises the question, why are they doing this is that they want chaos. They want they dont want to be around these people so that they kind of project that theyre, you know, its some guy from bakersfield on a forklift whos illiberal. But i have a nice nanny and a landscaper, but i dont want my kids to go to school with their kids. I dont know what it is, but its almost medieval. Watch the full program time online at book tv dot org. Just search Victor Davis Hanson or the title of his book, the dying citizen citizen. And book tv is back with more authors, the texas book festival in austin austin. And. Its the book gets i apologize for leaning this far into the microphone but okay thank you very much. I think they may have just turned me up, but anyway, welcome to the end of the texas book festival. Thank you for sticking. So im mike clark madison. Im the news editor and metro columnist here at the austin chronicle, which is one of austins two newspapers, the independent local one. Hello gets like i said, welcome to the 27th annual texas book festival. Please, before its too late, silence your cell phones and. Feel free. Dont put away your cell phones because feel free to share your experience on social media. Please tag the festival and the hashtag tag. The festival adds texas book fest hashtag fest. After this conversation, the authors be signing books and the book signing tent just down the congress avenue from us about a block. Books are for sale, courtesy of book people, your local independent bookstore and largest indie in texas. Just like us. Portion of every book supports the texas book festivals and helps Fund Programs that bring books and authors to students in low income schools. In texas and to fund grants for libraries in texas. So thank you. Your authors today. Starting with my immediate right Nick Seabrook is professor in the department. Political silent silence. If only and public administration. The university of north florida the author of drawing the lines constraints on gerrymander in us politics and one person one vote a surprising history gerrymandering in america. He in jacksonville, florida. And then to my father right. Jeremy siri holds, the mac brown, distinguished chair for leadership and Global Affairs at the university of texas at austin. He, a professor in the Universitys Department of history and the lbj school of Public Affairs professor series, the author and editor of 11 books on policy, politics and Foreign Policy and hosts a weekly podcast. This is democracy, so im going to start with jeremy. The cover line, which i guess you may be able to see on the screens im sorry, the cover line, which you may be able to see on the screen, is about americas long and unfinished. Thats kind of the key word here. Fight for democracy. But focusing on here in the book is really the 20 years, 25 years or so after the civil war itself. And, you know, the unions winning the civil war, i guess, was probably in retrospect, somewhat predictable because it was larger, more prosperous, that at some point, it would outpace the confederacy see, but it was more ambivalent about winning the peace and what it meant. And we know that lincoln had at least talked about reconciling asian as being what would have been his guiding principle had he survived to lead the postwar era. Do you think that was ever and do you think that some of the failings could have been avoided if. Well, basically, Andrew Johnson had not become president. Right. Thank thank you. Thank you, everyone for being here. Thank you, mike, for that excellent question. And its its always a delight to speak at the texas book festival. I wrote this book actually to answer that specific question like its its a question for me. The civil war large and it looms ever larger in our society because of the Unfinished Business that the end of the war. And i think the first point one has to make an answer to this question about alternative is the obvious point that we as americans forget, which is that most wars, virtually all wars dont end when main belligerents go home, the wars continue. War is incestuous society. War is about culture and its about peoples views of one another. And it far outlasts one. A few men sit a table and decide that war has ended. Another way of putting this. And i think its one thing that historians have to remind policymakers of all the time. Its much easier start wars than it is to end wars. And the civil war is a classic case of that. I think it was an unavoidable double war from Abraham Lincolns perspective, and i think he was right about. But the war did not end because in 1865, robert e lee took his his soldiers off the battlefield. The war continued. They went home into peoples communities and in fact, the fighting and the violence within American Society rose after antietam. Gettysburg, it rose. It increased in American Society and all kinds ways that i talk about in the book. But i think the key point in that is that a war of that kind, a war over the fundamental structure of American Society. And let me say this, it was not a war over states rights, despite what all these stupid monuments say. It was not a war over that right there. Can i can i can i say, shouldnt those monuments be taken down. And i want to give my son credit for reminding me to say that. By the way, as we walk by them today. Thank you, zachary, for reminding me of that. The war was not over states rights, despite what those monuments say, the war was over slavery. Slavery was the main source of wealth for families in. The south today, most families have their wealth in their homes. Then families, their wealth in their slaves. And protecting slavery was protecting economic as well as social status for so many people. Part of the answer to mikes excellent question is once you have removed for simply taken and slaves have forcibly for themselves taken their freedom those who have lost their slaves are not just going to give up. And part of my book is about that that would have been the same if Abraham Lincoln had and he knew that what was different, i think would the absence of Abraham Lincoln and the rise of Andrew Johnson is that you had leadership in washing ten after lincolns assassination that included two kinds of people, one who just wanted to move on and do nothing more, and others who wanted to take a series of half measures who wanted to take an ambivalent approach . Mike and i were talking about this before and i think ambivalent, the right way to put it, an approach to which there would be somewhat of a commitment in the south, but not that much of a commitment to that much because for most northern republicans, there was more money to be made in the west and they were tired of fighting in the south, the most northern republican said was weve put a lot into this war. The war should be over now. Can we come home and take our money and move on, move on with our lives . So those have been problems regardless. But what Andrew Johnson did the president who succeeded lincoln, who never should have been president was he blanket pardoned confederate leaders and in this state of texas just as one example a. W. Terrell how he was referred to right Alfred Watkins Terrell Alexander Watkins Terrell who had been a confederate general, is just one of many examples who then left the country to try to keep his slaves fought for a foreign army maximilians army in mexico he came back and because he was pardoned by Andrew Johnson he could run for state senate. He became the democratic leader of the senate and then he wrote the election laws in this state. Let me say that again. A confederate leader who committed treason twice secession and joining the mexico army against the United States came back and wrote our election laws because he was pardoned by Andrew Johnson. If he had not been pardoned, he would have been able to do that. And we would have had perhaps a different future. Whats the point in this that wars dont end when we say theyre over but we cannot forgive and forget either that actually the struggle continues and thats we have to deal with today and this ill close answer on this that today we have recognize that that Unfinished Business is were dealing with today the racial issues we have the questions over voting. We are we think the greatest in the world with some of the worst voter protections of any democracy, the world we provided better voter protections in germany and japan. We them there after World War Two than we have in the u. S. My fathers from india. India has been better voter protections now than we do, and thats because of the civil war. Its because of turell. Its because of that work we havent done. This war lingers and it could have been a bit better with different leadership, but it never would have been easy. And i think thats the point yeah i think the idea well i think of you know creating a, a just and free society for all people in america or even just in american south. It looks like that it was only, you know, maybe a little bit of undergrad and general sheridan kind of the oppressed that particularly like 1870 one, 73 and then then people got cold feet. Yeah. So one of the ways in which we have bad voter protections in this country so going is the way in which we draw districts. And so, you know, nicks book here professor seabrooks surprise history of gerrymandering in america. And i guess one of the things that surprising about it is how for long what we now associate with gerrymandering being, you know, done with surgical by computers and you know drawing individual houses and neighborhoods out of districts for advantage wasnt of course possible technically technologic play for a lot of our history, but it also wasnt for a lot of our history because there was no real requirement that people ever redrew their districts. So talk a little bit about for, you know, in i guess the before the baker versus carr case is that you have now apportionment was more of the that you have. Well thank you mike and thank you all for coming out today. This is my first time in austin. Im very excited to be here and that kind of gets at the core. The reason why i wrote my book, mikes kind of two for two on on his questions because. I think that history is important because in order to avoid making the same mistakes over again. We need to know and understand the reasons why we made them the first time and as we sit here in, the shadow of the capitol, a place where many such mistakes with respect to gerrymandering have been made over the decades. The reason why the history of gerrymandering is important is because we cant trust the people in that building to do the right thing. Right. And that the original sin of districting is that its done by selfinterested politicians to begin with correct and. That is the core of problem. I get asked over and over when i talk about this topic, what can we do to help fix gerrymander . And the answer i always give is that the first step and if you dont take this first step, then none of the other steps really matter. The first step is to take politicians out of the equation. In the 1960s, the us Supreme Court decided a series of cases that created the constitutional principle of one person, one vote, the concept after which my book is named, and as mike hinted at in his question prior to that, gerrymandering happened. It happened going all way back to the founding era. The ink on the constitution was not quite yet dry when the framers began to gerrymander one another into and out of power. But these historical gerrymanders were fairly unsophisticated, and they often use of a technique as mal apportionment where. You had districts in the same that had very, very different populations from one another and in particular districts in rural areas. The american states tended to much smaller populations than districts in urban areas. This was the case here in texas, in states across the nation and consequent only rural americans were overrepresented in the corridors of power in terms of their political influence. And urban americans were underrepresented. And in the 1960s, the Supreme Court fixed that they, mandated that every district within a legislative chamber have approximate equal population. But in fixing that problem they created a whole different one. And that is the theme of my book that by requiring redistricting to happen every ten years after the census in all 50 states, the temptation for politicians is to use that redistricting process for their own advantage by manipulating the districts and their boundaries to keep themselves in power, keep the majority for their political party. It has always been to difficult for politicians to resist. It was difficult in the 1970s here in texas when the democrats who controlled the legislature the time and fresh off the Civil Rights Movement and, the destruction of the institutions of jim crow, realized that gerrymandering was a tool that they could use to prevent the africanamerican population in places like houston and elsewhere in texas from achieving power. It was the same in the 17 years in the eighties and nineties where again, democrats used gerrymandering to hold on to control of the institution of state government. Here in texas even as their numbers their popular vote share began to dwindle and. Then in the 2000 things flipped, the gop comes to power here in texas and they have been gerrymandering just as much and just as effectively to prevent the democrats from getting back in. And so i think the major takeaway from my book is that politicians could never be trusted to draw own districts and, they can never be trusted and we cannot hope to constrain legally by simply making it illegal for them to do so. Weve tried that in florida. It failed its been tried in new york and utah it failed. The only here. And its the solution. Just about every other nation in the world that uses districts for its elections has settled on is you just take politicians out of the process entirely. And thats the message of my book. We need independent redistricting. We need redistricting based on neutral principles. And only then can we have a democracy that truly represents the will of the people. And this may be just a little follow up for both of you now that weve kind of lived with the the bad way of doing things for a while, do we know what like what would those neutral principles like . What would people what do even know how to do this in america, i guess is the question. And there may also be a for you jeremy do people how to come together address some of these ambivalence is that you know were left hanging at the end of the civil war. Well yes i think it is possible. We have as a society just we have remained mired in the political that i talk about in my book. I also talk about the ways in we have at moments been able to move forward. Ulysses grant creates the Justice Department. There was no Justice Department before 70. The Justice Department was created to enforce civil rights. Who tells you now that thats not what its supposed to do . Doesnt know the history. The Justice Department and for a few years it did that ulysses grants presidency led to the end of the ku klux klan, for example, and that was Law Enforcement that enforced laws in a nonpartisan can way. Weve done this i think to some extent after january six, which is where i opened my book with the interact zone of january six, 2021, more than 900 people have been prosecuted breaking into the capitol that have been prosecuted because the prosecutors are democrats or republicans theyve been prosecuted because they objectively broke the law. And we have people who are trained by Law Enforcement judges and Law Enforcement prosecutors, and thats their job. And they would prosecute a democrat or republican who broke into the capitol and they, of course, should prosecute people in that way. We have shown capacity even in very areas to develop and incentivize certain institutions to as much as possible not act in political ways, but act in ways that match up basic legal standards that we have applied throughout our society. If we didnt do that, our airplanes would fall out of the sky. Right . Our airplanes dont fall out the sky, not because Southwest Airlines is a wonderful company, but because of faa and the National Transportation safety board created by Lyndon Johnson, which is a nonpolitical expert body. So i think nick is is is spot on. And i think the history that i chronicle in my book and that he chronicles in his book shows that we a temptation toward put politicization and continued division. But we also have the possibility of building objective standards and creating professionalized institutions to actually set out Fair Districts and to set out fair flying rules and to set out fair application of the law in our. And there are moments we do that. Whats the most important takeaway from my book . This is that it requires political will. You need people in leadership positions are willing to stand up for that and. Im going to say it because were coming up on an election right. If you have a governor who doesnt show up, its not going to happen. Its got to be a governor, a state leader, a city leader, a nationally to whos willing to stand up for the process, democracy and protect the process of democracy as a goal unto itself. Ulysses grant tried to do that. Theodore roosevelt did that. Havent seen that in texas in a long time. And i do think thats what our election is about. On tuesday. So i was writing the book i wanted to try and conclude on an optimistic note and it wasnt easy, but fortunately in this era of polarization and between democrats and, republicans, between liberals and conservatives, it can seem like americans are living in Different Countries and the rhetoric is not just rhetoric of disagreement, its a rhetoric of. The other side is actively working to destroy the country or. The other side is actively working to destroy democracy or the american way of life. And sometimes it can seem that those differences are intractable, but one of the few areas of encouraging when it comes at least to my Little Corner of the decline of democracy, redistricting, gerrymandering is that is something that democrats and republicans broadly agree. When the people are given an opportunity vote on this directly rather than through their elected representatives who are already getting chosen from gerrymandered districts and where the will of the people already being distorted. But when the people get to speak for themselves, overwhelm only in blue states, red states and in swing states, they vote. Change the redistricting reform measures have passed in states as diverse as florida, michigan, colorado, all swing states, new york, california. Blue states, utah, red state the people when they are given the opportunity to weigh in, they overwhelmingly will say. We want districts drawn independently. We want districts that are drawn to our communities to group together, similarly situated, similarly interested americans, is not districts that are manipulated, political gain or are manipulated to keep incumbents in power. And so the problem becomes how do we give people the opportunity to use their voice. And that is unfortunately, in many states the difficult party a lot of states have, some form of direct democracy where you can signatures, you can put together a petition and you can get a constitutional or a statute on ballot for a direct popular vote of the people and in those states. That is clearly the best mechanism for democratic change, for safeguarding democracy. See, because the people like that a whole lot more than the people who are in power like that. But of course there are certain states thats not possible. And then it becomes substantially more challenge. There are things that congress do. Congress has the power to pass legislation banning and requiring independent commissions to draw the districts for federal elections. But congress cannot regulate the states do in their own elections. Congress can pass legislation to fix the electoral count act to that if in 2024 or beyond a losing president ial candidate attempts to steal election again that they unable to succeed. But this takes action it takes the people to use own voice when theyre able to do so through direct democracy. And it takes the talking about enough and voting based on these issues enough that the powers that be have to take notice and thats the way we can moving forward safeguard our democracy to talk about both both of you talk about this will be less before we open up to questions talk about that and the concept of every basically proportional or at least that everyone is represented in a body versus the winner take all zero sum games that come to define american politics and that have defined in what you write about in the air as the new books. So so so this is the topic i actually close the book on, on on representation and also we tell our history. I do want to say a little bit about that too, but in terms of the we are represented our democracy since the civil war has actually been less and less of a true representing of who we are. This is one of the points i make and its not an accident once. 4 million slaves become citizens and. Then we also go through three decades with the largest immigration in our history when many of our families here during, that period the United States become as remarkably inventive in electing people who are not representative of those they claim to represent and not an accident. And that is not just a southern story. I grew up in new york city. Thats as much a new york story as it is a texas story, it helps explain why we vote on tuesdays rather than voting as most countries do on a federal holiday. And over two or three days in a weekend it explain why we had literacy tests pole to pole test and it explains why our gerrymandering, which is an old story, as nick says, becomes actually normalized the politicization of gerrymandering on a scale that was not the case before the civil war becomes actually normalized within our society. And so i often show students a map. Houston harris county, one of the largest counties in the United States, most diverse in the United States, with the least diverse congressional representation, the least diverse congressional representation for the most diverse area in the state. This is because our system is set up as such that you can allocate people in certain ways and its a winner take all system so that you can get 45 of the vote and get nothing and someone can get 55 of the vote and get everything. Proportional representation would mean that we would have multiple members for districts and that the second place person and sometimes even the third place person would also get representation, which would mean more groups would be represented. It wouldnt be winner take all, which encourage cooperation it would encourage collaboration. In the 20th century, many democracies have moved in this direction. And one of the conventional wisdom among democracy scholars is that proportional representation works better in diverse societies to give everyone seat at the table. We have resisted doing that. There is no reason we couldnt move to that tomorrow. If we as a state decided wanted to do that for state elections, theres nothing that stands in the way of that happening. And here i will echo what nick said so. Well, its a matter of voters demanding we can blame all kinds of institutional issues as long as we want you elect someone who doesnt actually believe that you should really be represented. But even if they happen to agree with you, too many people vote the person who gives them tax cuts rather than the person that actually is going to set up a system that creates the kind of democracy that they want. That should be a leading for all of us. We should demand that our leaders move towards a system that is actually more representative of who we are. Why does the teaching of history matter . Well, my belief is that the biggest thing that stands in the way is actually not corruption, its ignorance. And we are ignorant by those who dont want us to learn our history. Lets try one thing. How many people in this have heard of the white primary . A few of you. How many of you had a year of texas in school . Thats about three times as many hands. I think. Two or three times as many hands. White primary. Im sorry. How many of you have heard of the. Because beto orourke has talked about it a lot. A little bit. Right. So heres the interesting thing, right. Texas had a primary system until 1944 and the Supreme Court decision of smith versus. All right. That eliminated the system that actually intentionally created distorted representation and locks people out. Most people had Texas History dont even know that they dont even know their own history. So how could you ask to change things if you dont understand our current primary system strangely echoes that system. We dont it because we dont know that the most patriotic thing you could do if you believe in social change is to teach people real history because then they can actually argue real change. So nick, while your addressing that, i should invite people is that the microphone up there right there. So if you have questions either of our authors, if you can go ahead and start finding a way to that microphone. Thanks. Well, ill keep my answer short so that we have time for peoples questions. But what i will say is, if you think about what districts are supposed to be for in a political system, it is to represent local interests it so the person who is making decisions in government is member of that community and has something in common with the that they represent and. Now look at the districts we have today. Members of congress represent that have 800,000 people in them that combine combined to gather people in, all kinds of different communities that have really nothing in common whatsoever. Members of the Texas Legislature also represent districts are in the hundreds of thousands. And so you have to ask yourself the question, are those districts still serving purpose for which they created, for which the reason is that we have districts to begin with. Maybe its time to think whether theres an alternative might be more fair, whether its a full proportional representation system, whether its the kind of system that jeremy mentioned where you have larger districts that more members and excuse are elected from. But certainly, i think what we can see is that what were doing now isnt working. So maybe its time to go back to the drawing board and think about what it is that political represents action is supposed to be, and then design a system based on that and said, all right, opening it up for questions. Mr. Bledsoe. Hi. I really am very interested both of books. They sound really fascinating. Me, i have a couple of questions for each of you. I think. One is, jeremy, your thoughts are really intriguing. Im curious if youve actually tried to make a connection to the present day in terms the actual governance that we have today with what occurred during the civil war. Thats one of the things the courts are really trying require today. Show me what exists today, not what existed yesterday. So drawing that connection would extremely important. So im curious, you did any work on that and what references . Nick i think that one question i would have for you would be i can understand your thesis we actually had districts like what youre proposing in austin back in 1951. But and that election, africanamerican was almost elected and so austin, like most of south, went to the majority electoral system to prevent from having the representation. But it seems to me that the problem is actually getting adopted. You cant ask, for example, blue states to go and adopt these commissions when the rich states dont do that, because that will create a real. And so its got to be done at the same time. All around the country. And im curious what thought given to that, because that seems to be the real conundrum. And i know how you could accomplish that. Well, yeah, i think you have correctly identified a major problem, and its the same kind of problem that we see efforts to get rid of the electoral in president ial elections that all of the states that have signed on to the National Popular vote compact are our blue states. When republicans have twice in the last 22 years won the Electoral College vote and the popular vote. Theres very little incentive for red states to get on board. And thats why it doesnt go anywhere. And you have a similar kind of when it comes to gerrymandering, i think a good illustration of that is the state, california, the largest state in the nation in terms of population in the most seats and a state where democrats gave up control over redistricting in favor, an independent commission and its cost them a imagine how many house seats democrats could have gotten out of california if theyd been able to gerrymander their their way that republicans did here in texas or in my home state of florida as well thats why i think we need National Legislation from congress. There have been two bills, the two pieces of Voting Rights legislation have been debated and that have not passed in the last two years. Both of those contained gerrymandering, reform, reform. I think youre right, at least for federal elections, we need a National Solution because otherwise its the kind of unilateral that democrats did in in california. And ill answer your excellent questions also just build on what nick, first of all, just starting nick ended the reason that legislation didnt pass was because of the filibuster. You will not find the filibuster in the constitution. The filibuster is a senate rule created in the early 19th century. In the filibuster, as we know it is used postcivil as frequently as it is today. It actually is used more frequently with every passing 30, 40 year period, especially the last 40 to 50 years. But it is a postcivil war usage of the civil of the filibuster in the way southern democrats used to, which is to prevent legislation on civil rights. Thats why it took so long until, 57 or 64, to get that legislation. And now, in terms of connecting the story, the civil war to today, thats very important to me in my book. Its very important to me as a political actor today. The book opens with january six, 2021, and the insurrection on that day. And then most of the history is of that 20 years. And then it comes back to today. Two things i try to do in the book. First, while telling the history, i want everyone to see today in that history, the same language, the language of fraud in elections thats vintage 1876, the language of the wrong people voting the language of no, i can overturn states can overturn popular vote thats all language from the 1870s and 1880s. But most of all the violence we see today. I just wrote a piece for Time Magazine last week on this to what happened to paul pelosi is vintage 1870. Thats a direct connection to today. What did the person who broke into paul pelosis house say when he was interviewed by the after he was arrested . You can all read this online he said he wanted to break Nancy Pelosis knees and wheeler and into congress so democrats would see there were consequences to their actions. Ladies and gentlemen, thats ben tillman saying in 1870 that he wanted to break the arms of africanamerica so that their fellow africanamericans know not to try to vote. Its Political Violence that has remained embedded in our Society Today that is deployed for purposes of intimidating people, a direct connection to today. And we have not dealt with that problem. Political violence is too common in our society and many too often its excused as Mental Illness. It is not that there arent Mental Illness issues, but that connection is a systemic issue. We have and i hope this history helps us to see and do something about it. The of the last few years the gift of donald trump is that even though people try to deny for so many of this history is now undeniable and so obviously in front of us which means we can now do about it this is but friedan said 70 years ago you got to name the problem first once you name the problem you can do something about it. So sir actually jeremy, you kind of just touched on the subject that i was wanting to raise, which is the actual situation we do face in terms of antidemocratic movement on the right, a movement that is trying to prevent the actual proportional representation of a very diverse demographic, changing the demography of the United States and anyway, as as professors, im sure you can appreciate this. I didnt read your books i do intend to do it. So my question is based on long as you buy them thats all we get you will you will enjoy they are good books so i just wonder if you could expand on like how well we can because i know about the with the gerrymandering that were seeing you know so i know you tried to say both democrat and republican are are have done it in the past currently were seeing some pretty extreme versions of it. And seeing even in situations where have tried to set up commissions like ohio be undermined by the republicans themselves, like what kind of according to your understanding from your history, what is the threat to democracy at this very moment. What to address the part of your question about what people can do about this . I think a lot of times when you ask what can i do about x problem dancer is just vote right. But when it comes to gerrymandering that doesnt work because were talking about a problem where the mechanism of voting themselves are broken. And so what i say to people when they ask me what can what can i do about gerrymandering in state . As i say that while voting is not because the powers that be have rigged those elections so that your vote either doesnt count or carry the level of influence it should. And so i say volunteer, organize is get involved. The only way the system is going to change is that if we make enough noise that the people in power are no longer able to ignore us, that the downside to them of undermining democracy, gerrymandering districts, engaging in voter suppression, all of the different tools that have led to this kind democratic backsliding in america only when the downside to electorally of continuing to engage in those things outweighs, the benefits they currently get from doing it well, things start to change. And so organize get involved in your community, in your state. And if enough people do that, theyll have to Pay Attention to us. I think the biggest challenge to our democracy, including so many things weve talked about here, is the wrong people are getting elected to office. The wrong people in texas are elected office. And they dont have to we dont need to have democrats to fix this. I happen think democrats would be better right now, but we have the wrong republicans. We have the wrong in office. And i think that has do with the systemic and institutional issues weve discussed. But it also has to do with that. Something about us that good people are not for office and we continue to reelect who we know are bad people, dont vote for someone who doesnt have integrity if they agree with you right. We have to. We have to own this a little bit. I agree. Wont change everything, but we can create a different culture of the politics in our society. And im optimistic because i teach a lot undergrads, as nick does, too, and have far fewer of these problems. The old guys do, man. So some of us are incrementalist and would like to begin with ranked choice and then go to open primaries and then go to multimember districts. One of the things obviously that we have yeah, the challenge is to a legislature to understand ranked Choice Voting is not is something that they need to support. We had one bill that was passed last session through the house. We were absolutely surprised. I hope that we will be six that more successful and get a bill through the house and the senate session. But what do you think about the incremental approach . I think incremental has a very strong history behind. You could argue that in the early 20th century, as is often said the laboratories were the states were the laboratories of the nation. Im for incremental change. Im models, im for experiments. Austin could do that. Lets put our money. Our mouth is right. We we could we could change the way we, run our own elections. Right. We have we have we have we have an expert panel does the districts right . We dont the politicians in austin choosing the districts right we could find more areas where we can start experiment in the city even the limits of state law and try to make that a model for the rest of the state. One thing that often works is when see that something is working better somewhere else. So id like us to actually take that seriously as a city. That would be a place to actually started. The austin boston citizens. Right . Because of the state law. So. So what would be then like in step before ranked Choice Voting think might be right yeah i think there are a lot of other Creative Things that that that we could do right and so lets talk about that rather than simply waiting for someone else do it right mean my question is for you jeremy. How do you account for the election . Barack obama and the and what role did that play, if any, in this civil war that were reliving now . Absolutely. Its a great question. I think i think there are two there are two narratives that are true at the same time. And i try to i try to give these both attention in the book that you have the continued civil resistance, but you also remarkable courage and mobilization, people who are changing society and both are true. There are more than 100,000 slaves who became union officers. They became literate. They became wage. They transformed so many parts of the country, including austin, texas. And thats as much of a story thats a story of civil rights. And there were many thousands of white republicans supported them. And theres also the story of those who resisted. Both are true at the same time, just as is case in our society. We did elect barack obama George Floyds lynching did transform our society. For many of us we had the largest Peaceful Demonstrations in our history. After george was lynched. Right. So that our society has changed. But at the same time that change has also triggered more resistance. And so in fact, the election of barack obama, which is a sign of change also reinforced the resistance were seeing from so many in our state. And you cant see our politics, i think, without seeing both of those on display for us. All right. And that brings us our time, right . Its 45. All right. Thank thank you so much for. Having attended the texas good festival again, join join jeremy siri and Nick Seabrook in the book signing tent down there, courtesy of black people and. Thank you again. That was 50. And that wraps up this years