The hearing will come to order. It isored to impossible to ignore the public outcry with incidents that have involved passengers, as recently as yesterday. One of the most widely reported was that chicago would united flight 3411. And lots of lessons to be learned and im sure well hear what those lessons learned, both with the airport and the airline and the industry, are today. In looking at what happened, i, along with and senator nelson, really sent an immediate letter, and that said the last thing paying Airline Customer should expect is to be physically taken off an airline. The purpose of the hearing is to follow up on the letters we sent , the responses we got, and to find out what went wrong and how to make sure this doesnt happen in the future. This is a year when faa reauthorization needs to occur between now and september 30. And part of this hearing is to determine whats going to be taken care of without the congress and what needs to be taken care of in the federal law itself. Im going to turn to senator cantwell for her opening comments and we will become to all of you. Cantwell i went to submit a letter from the paralyzed veterans of america discussing the challenges they have faced as disabled passengers when they fly, if i could do that. Thank you. And thank you, chairman blunt for convening this hearing and thanks to the witnesses for being here to discuss the important topics that are being raised today. All of us were deeply disturbed by the images of dr. Dao being dragged from a plane last month in chicago. For a passenger who presented no threat to safety or security of a flight to be treated that way is completely unnecessary and unacceptable. United has acknowledged as much. The united incident in chicago has not been the only Airline Incident to gain National Attention recently and we need to look at the policies and procedures across the entire industry to help address and improve the experience for the flying public. You need to ask yourselves as providers are you prioritizing those shareholder profits over the basic needs of consumers . The Airline Industry as a whole needs to explore sensible ways to fix the traveling experience for our passengers. As our commercial air system continues to grow, airports are more congested, travellers have fewer options, the flying public understands because they see it every time when they fly. The seats are fuller, and becoming smaller by the way. Tempers are flaring and if you run into trouble, if your flight is canceled, or you miss the connection, you are out of luck. Airplanes are flying full and seats arent available to accommodate displaced passengers and capacity in many cases is rising slowly, if at all, as a competition has disappeared. Even as those 83 of seats are being filled. In the state of washington, our airport has been one of the Fastest Growing airports and passengers have been feeling the squeeze. Weve had hearings about how were addressing that from a tsa and Homeland Security perspective. As a result, the industrys growth is too many airports are security,g lines of crowded terminals and gateways, so we need to do our part and make sure the flying experience for the public is also focused on the needs of the flying public. We need to find improvements at our airports that will allow for room and competition. I believe that we need to make sure our airports have access to our customers. I do appreciate the steps that united and their partners in the Many Industries are taking to improve passenger experience. As airlines have brought in record profits, they have made some investments back into their product. But the fact were here today to hear about is that across the industry, we need to continue to make more steps towards that passenger experience. I know that when my former colleague was here, senator boxer, we talked about those elements of a passenger bill of rights. Just making sure when passengers were delayed on runways or held on flights with an extraordinary amount of time, that they got basic needs taken care of like access to water or food and making sure they had clear understanding. I think it may be time for a new passenger bill of rights to make sure that were focusing on the Consumer Experience, making sure that consumers arent left, that we are doing things that are appropriate and necessary to make sure that they are protected in these incidents. Thank you, mr. Chairman, for having this hearing. Senatorrman thank you, cantwell, and senator nelson is here. Would you like to make a few comments before we start . Nelson thank you, mr. Chairman. I would. Because of the gravity of this situation, what happened to dr. Dao is simply uncontionable. Im sorry you were sent here, it here as the president. You were sent here as the sacrificial lamb. It ought to be your ceo who i know personally who is a wonderful person and who has overcome great personal, medical challenges and was beginning to get such a good reputation. Anybody who has served in the military understands the captain of the ship is in fact responsible. And it ought to be the ceo. And for the life of me, barring any safety reasons, security reasons, which was certainly not the case here, no passenger should ever be treated like this on an airline. I understand youve made several changes following the incident and we all appreciate those efforts. But this is a subtext and a foretelling of larger issues. Because the Airline Industry in this country has become anticompetitive and consumers. Re being hurt in the process talk to most any passenger and they feel like they are being treated as selfloading cargo rather than the way they should be. As selfvery valued customers. They feel taken advantage of. And theyre getting sick and tired of it. You talk to anybody that travels, and what im worrying about is this a consequence of all the mergers so we only have a handful of airlines and they basically dont have the competition . Many of the passengers now have become selfdescribed detectives by using their cell phone to record incidents where their fellow passengers are being unfairly or unjustly treated. I take no pleasure in beating up on the airlines, in this case its warranted and its a good thing were having this hearing. Because of what it portends for the future. All of us is experienced firsthand or heard from folks back home about incidents. The explosion of thieves such as checked baggage, priorities boarding, assigned seating that are not always clear. We try to straighten out some of this in last years faa bill. Were going to get another crack at it this year. And the i. T. Systems of airlines are failing and causing prolonged confusion and delays. And passengers with disabilities and thats why i am glad you put in the disabled veterans letter, they are having to deal with poorly Trained Personnel or the wheelchairs are mishandled and damaged. And add to the insult to injury, just yesterday, we learned that American Airlines and i wish we had the ceo of american here, we learned that American Airlines is getting ready to buy 100 new boeing 737 jets. They call them max jets and theyre going to cram another 10 so in an article which ill enter into the record, mr. Chairman, with your permission. Mr. Chairman without objection. Senator nelson American Airlines is cutting more leg room, economy class. They say that in ordering these boeing 737 max jet liners that theyll shrink the distance between seats, which is known as pitch, from 31 to 29 inches and in this article, it points out as right now, delta american and delta, american and and southwest are 31 inches. United is 30. Spirit is 28. And american, by these new jets, 10 more seats cramped in. I wonder how you handle, ms. Nelson, that Flight Attendants having to deal with more in, 29omers cramped inches. It will only be rivalled by spirit at 28. And virgin has 32 inches and jetblue has 34 inches. But jetblue and virgin arent the big four. So while these are certainly not new complaints, they seem to be getting worse in the publics eye. And the fact is that we wouldnt be sitting here today if the traveling public believes that the airlines cared more about them than theyre caring about the do re me. This is happening and you all need to face it. Two years ago, the democrats on this committee released a report on the airlines lack of transparency on the growing number of fees charged to passengers that called on the airlines to stop nickel and diming the traveling public. And whats happened since . Fees continue to go up. While the Airlines Fight behind the scenes in washington to kill any proposal. We had that they killed some of them last years faa bill. Some of them we got in, but compounding all of this is the fact that many consumers dont have a lot of choices if theyre fed up with the service at their local airport. So where is the competition . And so according to one recent study of the u. S. Travel association, the big currently controls over 50 of four the seat capacity on flights out of 155 airports. That doesnt sound real competitive to me. Here we are with an industry facing selfinflicted pr problems, sitting before us asking for our forgiveness and to allow them to fix their own problems, mr. Chairman, i am a strong believer in savings and being saved and redemption, and i truly hope the airlines are sincere and their corrective actions match their words. When i see more passengers being 10 crammed in to the same size aircraft, i have questions. So i think most americans would want to return to the friendly skies. And that said, let this senator be clear. If i have anything to do with as the Ranking Member of the full committee, this committee is not going to sit back and wait and see approach. We have acted in a bipartisan fashion in the past to protect the flying public and were prepared to do so again when we begin later this year on the faa authorization bill. Thank you, mr. Chairman for this opportunity. Mr. Chairman thank you, senator nelson. We have with us ginger evans, the commissioner of the Chicago Department of aviation, scott kirby, the president of United Airlines, sharon pinkerton, Senior Vice President , legislative and Regulatory Affairs for airlines of america, sara nelson, the International President of the association of Flight Attendants and sally greenberg, the executive director of the National Consumer league. So we are pleased that youre here. We look forward to your testimony. We have your testimony, but would love to have you handle your five minutes however you want. We will run that clock pretty tight. In no more than 25 minutes, we are to questions. And commissioner evans, well let you start. Commissioner evans good morning. Blunt andchairman members of the committee for asking me to testify on the important issue of safety in the airports. Events that the took place on april 9, 2017, were unacceptable. On behalf of the chicago airport of aviation, we would like to and his family our sincerest apology. As someone who spent more than three decades in the aviation industry, that a passenger of one of our airplanes was deeply saddening and personally offensive to me. This is not how we do business and these actions will not be tolerated. As the commissioner of overseeing ohare and the Midway International airport, the safety of the public remains our highest priority. It is imperative that we interact with passengers in a manner that not only protects their safety but conveys dignity and respect. We have Strong Security plans in place coordinated with our partners in the federal government. These establish roles and responsibilities from multi layered Security Response system to prevent riches of security, while ensuring continued confiscation of weapons, and general security for persons working in and traveling through our airports. These plans help ensure that more than 100 million passengers safely travel through Ohare International airport and Midway International airport every year. We continue to adapt our state and security policies, procedures and practices to respond to new and changing threats, both external and internal. However, based on my review, the Security Officers involved in the incident on united flight 3411 broke from our standard procedures and failed to provide dr. Dao and his family the respect we demand be given to all the traveling public flying in and out of chicago. These actions are not condoned by the Chicago Department of aviation. We initiated an immediate administrative review. Based on that review, four personnel were put on leave and the interviews and findings of our review were given to the city of chicagos inspector general. The details during the response to the request for officers are now the subject of an expedited disciplinary investigation by the inspector general. Our immediate review showed that the actions of these officers were not in accordance with the Chicago Department of aviations directives. Our policy is clear that force should only be used when absolutely necessary to protect the security and safety of our passengers. Our policy states, and i quote, the safety of innocent persons and bystanders must be given primary consideration whenever the use of force is contemplated. Further, my department launched a separate review of our Security Resources and policies to identify changes that might clarify and strengthen security roles and procedures. While we cannot reverse took place, as a department we are taking action to ensure this never happens again. We have moved quickly to institute several changes that i would like to share with you today. First, United Airlines announced that effective april 12 they will request officers only for issues involving safety and security. We are working with our other airlines to standardize this policy and ensure complete consistency throughout our two airports. Effective april 10, Chicago Department of aviation airport Security Officers will no longer board aircraft unless theres an immediate medical issue or imminent physical threat on board with great bodily harm at risk. The Chicago Police department will continue to take the lead in responding to disturbances on aircraft which they have done very ably. While the main duty of airport Security Officers will continue to be to enforce federal regulations governing airport safety and security and restricted areas of the airport, while officers are trained on primitive control and Craft Movement areas, they are not designated Law Enforcement authority at our airports. Third, we are in the final stage of obtaining an International Aviation security expert to partner with us to conduct a comprehensive review of our Security Program to ensure that we are not only meeting current best practices but also thinking forward and positioning ourselves to respond to the ever changing security environment. While these measures represent an important step forward, more work remains to be done. We will continue to assess both our staff and facilities to meet our most Important Mission of safely supporting each and every passenger that moves through our airports. We are also initiating a very comprehensive plan with our Airline Partners to modernize and improve chicago ohare for the purpose of serving our customers more comfortably. In closing, id like to state to say we are deeply sorry for the events that took place on april 9. We are redoubling our efforts to strengthen our Security Systems policies, procedures and Training Program to ensure they Work Together to keep all of our passengers safe. Mr. Kirby chairman blunt, senators, thank you for the opportunity to address the subcommittee on this important matter today. My name is scott kirby and im the president of United Airlines, here today representing our 87,000 employees. On april 9, our airlines broke the Publics Trust in an incident that should have never happened. I apologize again to dr. Dao, his family, to every passenger on flight 3411 and to all our customers and employees around the world, and im very sorry for our companys inadequate response to the initial incident. No customer should have ever been treated the way that dr. Dao was. We promise to complete a full analysis of what happened on flight 3411, including where we fell short, and the actions we needed to take to change the Customer Experience at united. One week ago today, we released a report, which identified four key failures. First, we called on Law Enforcement when a safety or security situation did not exist. Second, we booked crew at the very last minute, even though flight 3411 was full. Third, we failed to provide our employees with the authority to offer enough compensation or alternative travel options to given incentive to a passenger to give up a seat. Fourth and perhaps most importantly, our employees did not have the authority to do what was right for our customers. A series of United Airlines policies put our employees, Law Enforcement and our customers in an impossible position. In an industry like ours, safety is always our top priority and rules are critical to ensuring a safe operation. In this instance, where safety wasnt the issue, we let rules and operating procedures stand in the way of common sense. A report announced several immediate and nearterm changes we are making to prevent an issue like this from ever having again and improve Customer Experience. First, unless safety or security is an issue, we will never again ask a customer to give up their seat once theyre on board or ask Law Enforcement to remove a customer from a flight. Were giving our employees authority to offer up to 10,000 to customers when we have an oversold situation and well have a team dedicating to finding that customer alternative travel options. And when a crew needs to travel on a flights, we will ensure theyre booked at least an hour before departure. Weve also eliminated the red tape around lost bags by instituting a no questions asked 1500 reermt. 1500 reimbursement for permanently lost luggage. This is a turning point for United Airlines. I do believe we are a Better Airline today than we were before because of this material this terrible incident. Well be a Better Airline tomorrow as these changes are fully implemented. All of us at united are working incredibly hard to reearn your trust and the trust of our customers around the world, and to provide our customers with the respect and service that they deserve. Thank you, and ill look show and i look forward to answering questions you may have. Chairman blunt thank you. Mrs. Pinkerton . , we pinkerton thank you appreciate the opportunity to be here today. We want the traveling public and this committee to know that the nations airline are listening. Like you, we found the events that transpired around the april nine incident unacceptable. The industry fully accepts that its our responsibility to ensure that such behavior and disrespect of a passenger can never happen again. We also know that deep regret and apologies, however sincere, are no substitute for Meaningful Solutions and action. To meet that responsibility, our carriers immediately reviewed why and how this situation developed and, importantly, where necessary, are making systemic changes based on that review. And these are not superficial changes. Just a few examples of the they range in enabling frontline employees more discretion. Just a few examples of the concrete steps that a variety of carriers are taking, completely eliminating or reducing overbooking, ensuring that no passenger is involuntarily removed from a flight for another passenger, renewing their focus and i think this is very important, on training for all customer facing staff to make sure theyre taking care of passengers, not just getting them safely from point to point. Finally, providing passengers with more transparency and understanding about what their rights are as consumers. These are some of the policy changes already being implemented and carriers are continuing to review a broad array of policies to improve Customer Service. We know passengers have choices in who they fly. Carriers compete not only on price but also on Customer Service. So every one of the 800 million passengers who fly u. S. Carriers annually deserve both a safe and pleasant experience. The results of competition which ive heard a lot about can be directly seen and are record breaking improvements in the 2016 dot Customer Service metrics for better ontime flight arrivals, better flight completion and nearly 100 properly handled bag delivery. With our metrics improve, so does customer satisfaction. This relationship has been shown in independent surveys that j. D. Power has done which recently reported that north American Airline satisfaction has climbed to a 10 year high. While weve made progress, i know we need to improve. For context, i do think its important to recognize that the turmoil of the bankruptcy in this industry, 9 11, mergers , that meant many carriers went through impacted our employees. They lost pensions. Many carriers werent making the necessary investments in their product and their people. Weve got some catching up to do. The Financial Stability of the last six years has enabled the industry to make record investments of up to 1. 5 billion per month in the Customer Experience. That investment includes new contracts for employees, new and cleaner planes, and new service which is all driving the improvements we see today. This committee we hope should recognize the facts, the official data that clearly show that Airline Competition is intense. In fact, its thriving. More people are flying today. Theyre doing so at lower prices to more destinations than ever. Consumers have seen enormous and quantifiable benefits from a thriving and competitive marketplace. Just last month, the bureau of transportation reported that the Fourth Quarter 2016 averagefare was down 26 since 2000, and if you include ancillary fees, 22 . Real fares were down 20 , 23 , and if you include ancillary fees, still down 20 . Weve seen benefits from a thriving competitive aviation marketplace. While all airports have gotten more air service, 176 small and nonhub airports have seen more seats in their markets. In addition to seats, airlines have added 198 new routes in 2016 and 161 in 2017. Weve seen a net expansion of 54 nonstop routes to and from airports. Senator, this industry does good things for people by connecting them to the family or friends. We hope that the recent but rare , although unacceptable incidents, do not completely eclipse the dignity and respect shown by airline employees to millions of travelers every day. Airlines recognize the onus is on us to foster a customer centric culture at each airline. We commit to you and the traveling public this industry will continue to work diligently and quickly to address any actions needed to ensure that all passengers are tried with treated with dignity and respect. Chairman thank you. Miss nelson thank you for the opportunity to testify today. The association of flight flightnts represents attendants at airlines and we partner with the Communications Workers of america who represent nearly 20,000 Customer Service agents. Together we help tens of thousands of flights get up in the air safely and even often sometimes inspire smiles. In order to recognize the realities of aviation today, we must look back to the events of september 11, 2001. Following losing our friends and flying partners, our profession and industry changed forever. Over 100,000 aviation jobs were lost nearly overnight, most airlines entered bankruptcy and some did not emerge. We lost 40 in pay, pensions were terminated, work rules were eviscerated, staffing was cut to minimum and many of the amenities of flying were removed as we have fewer tools to appease wary travelers. Airlines lost billions of dollars and for nearly 10 years, the driving force was to cut cost in every area but executive compensation. Had been into areas are we seats. Thanks up see game bankruptcy gave way to mergers. Cabin checked baggage fees drove more luggage to the door. Flight attendants are working from 25 to 50 more hours on the job while fatigue studies show cabin crew are not getting enough rest. Even though ticket prices are 40 below 1990 levels, airlines are making money again through capacity cuts and reduction of field prices. Today, u. S. Carriers must also compete with predatory carriers , who entered the u. S. Market and lavish amenities because they are subsidized with over 50 billion from their government. As long as our government fails to enforce the open skies agreement that prohibits this, it will hit further on employees and consumers. American announced this week the airline is adding more seats to the aircraft by reducing leg room to 29 inches. This is going to have a direct impact on Flight Attendants who will have to answer to angry passengers enraged by the lack of room. Meanwhile, the same Flight Attendants are recording they are sick from toxic uniforms and contaminated cabin air and wall street was in an uproar when their pay was adjusted to an industry average a few weeks ago at the rate that might cover a familys utility bill because shareholders were worried it might take out of their returns. When delta had another crew meltdown that left passengers stranded for nearly one week, the Flight Attendants without a Union Contract were left on duty in excess of 24 hours and having to deescalate tensions while standing on hold to get through to the company for more than 10 10 hours. Every day, Flight Attendants working at u. S. Airlines are based in the u. S. And help tens of thousands of passengers travel safely to their destination and without incident. This has become more challenging in recent years with staffing cuts significantly to faa minimums. Theres a rising tension on board and our experience exacerbated by a National Narrative full of disrespect for authority, decency and decorum and fewer aviation spopders to First Responders to manage it. The escalating conflict has become a significant portion of the work on each flight. Without recognition of our role and authority in the cabin, we are very concerned about the dangerous conditions Flight Attendants may be facing at work. When Flight Attendants simply attempt to do safety check, theyre greeted with the refusal and on the ground we are having some authorities on the ground who dont want to respond because they dont want to end up on the news either. Flight attendants are caught in the middle and safety and security will suffer. Aviation regulations did not materialize out of here. It was a deadly crash in 1991 of 5569 and exit row requirements were identified as necessary. When Tragedy Strikes we make changes and vow never again. We have to mean it. Now Flight Attendants are challenged, ignored or chastised for these safety checks. Cabin and crew are left to wonder whats worse, failing to comply with federal regulations as part of our job or doing the safety sensitive work and ending up on the evening news or facing discipline from management because someone didnt like the instruction. The vast majority of passengers come to the plane with kindness in their hearts and a desire to have a peaceful, uneventful flight. Look at the focus on aviation. It is a fascinating topic for the public and garners more publicity than almost any other industry. Our airlines, the crews and passengers fly to every corner of the earth when some can only dream of crossing borders. Its one of our greatest symbols and expressions of freedom. Our u. S. And it industry generate 1. 2 trillion in Economic Activity and supports 10 million jobs. For these reasons it continues to be a target of those who wish to wage war against america. We cant afford to get this wrong. We cant afford to dismiss safety and security. Flight attendants cannot effectively do our jobs without passengers recognizing the necessity of following crew member instructions. Thank you so much for the opportunity to be here today. Theres so much more to discuss about staffing, surveillance of crew movement, security concerns and all of the realities of aviation today, and i look forward to your questions. Chairman thank you. Well see if we can get to this so much more here in a minute. Miss greenburg. Miss greenburg good morning, members of the aviation subcommittee. Im sally greenburg, executive of the National Consumers league and we appreciate the invitation to be here today. Three weeks ago, america saw the shocking video of dr. David daos filing removal, the predictable result of a lack of effective competition and Consumer Protection in the u. S. Airline industry. What happened on that flight symbolizes a problem that is not unique to united. Subsequent incidents on american and delta which did not go viral , demonstrate power in the Airline Industry has become dangerously unbalanced. Its time for congress to take action to assure consumers that the next time they fly they wont become the inwitting star of their own viral video. How have we gotten to this point . In a word, competition or the lack thereof. In the last decade, mergers have reduced nine Large Airlines to four, american, delta, southwest and united. Together, they control more than 80 of all domestic flights. At a staggering 93 airports only one or two airlines control a majority of the seats. According to the gao, 1. 2 million scheduled domestic flights were eliminated as the big carriers gobbled up four competitors. Smaller communities in particular were hard hit. For example, in 2008, san antonio lost approximately 600 jobs when at t relocated its Corporate Headquarters to dallas. The Company Actually said in a press release, being headquartered near leading air transportation facilities is critical to Global Companies like at t as the Airline Industry continues to consolidate and reduce hubs in flights. The industry sought to generate profits by literally squeezing passengers. Last year, average load factors topped 80 for the 8th Consecutive Year and the average distance between rows as senator nelson has described in great detail, the average distance before regulation it was 35 inches and today its about 31 inches. American airlines, as senator nelson has indicated, is set to even reduce those distances to smaller sizes. So americans are getting bigger, were getting heavier, and we are being crammed into smaller and smaller spaces. All of this consolidation has resulted in higher prices for consumers, despite what you might hear this morning. A wall street journal analysis of airfares found that from 2007 to 2014, a period coincideing with the worst Economic Crises since the great depression, the price of round trip domestic flight increased nearly 16 . These independent numbers stand in contrast to industry claims that its never been better or cheaper to fly. There are steps that congress could take and should take in the near term to address the worst impacts of the lack of competition. First, as the united incident vividly illustrated, airline bumping policies can lead to shockingly negative outcomes for consumers and involuntary should be required to maintain interline agreements with other airlines to ensure that paying passengers who are bumped make it to their final destination with as little delay as possible. Second, the power and balance between airlines and their passengers can no longer lie solely with the airlines. For example, consumers should be made aware of their rights at the time of the purchase of their tickets, via posters at the gate and ticket counters. Passengers need access as well to the legal system to hold airlines accountable for their promises. Third, there seems to be no limit to outrageous charges such as guaranteed seats, a piece of luggage or the need to reschedule a flight. Cl, along with other national 10 and consumer organizations supported the fair fees act , which would prohibit the airlines from canceling fees that are unreasonable or disproportionate to the cost incurred by the air carrier. They should strengthen their policies available to consumers to match for things like compensation for delays, cancellations or involuntary bumping. Finally, congress should pass a comprehensive passenger bill of rights, which addresses these and other Consumer Protection priorities, such as minimum seat standards and fair policies over all. In conclusion, consumers are angry, theyre frustrated. We need members of the subcommittee to be in our corner to promote Consumer Rights and protection and to restore some semblance of balance and fairness between passengers and the airlines. Thank you to members of the subcommittee for inviting the consumer perspective. I look forward to your questions. Chairman thank you. There will be a number of members here and we will try to keep our question time to five minutes in the order that people came to the committee, with the exception of the chairman. A few shows up, we will give him the same courtesy we gave the Ranking Member when he was here. Flexibility to your gate agents and Flight Attendants have in terms of trying to deal with overbooking, and why you are doing with that, my understanding, even in the made anules, nobody offer that was the maximum offer that a passenger could be offered under those rules. Mr. Kirby thank you. First, this situation was not because of overbooking. As most of our oversales situations occur for operational reasons. This together situation, our employees are authorized to go up to a certain limit, and they concluded on the airplane that no one was going to go even at that limit. So its not clear why they didnt go all the way to the limit. But what we have done and one of the clear findings is we need to give our employees more tools and more flexibility. Thats why by going up to 10,000 and creating this alternative travel desk, they get people to destinations that might be close to their home, we believe were going to be able to drive our involuntary boarding close to zero and that is one of our goals, to get involuntary denied boarding schools to zero, we can accommodate all of our customers , where a dispute as a winwin situation. Chairman did you say more people are taken off planes were not put on planes because of weight and the safety issues than that you sold more seats . Mr. Kirby yes, sir. The vast majority of our involuntary boarding at united is about two thirds of our involuntary denied boardings come from operational issues. Usually Weight Restrictions for weather or an aircraft slot which is often because of maintenance or weather where the airplane couldnt arrive in the destination in time to take the flight. Those operational issues where you have to take 20 or 30 passengers off an airline are where we have involuntary denied boarding. Overbooking is usually one to two passengers are over the limit and generally we can get someone to take alternative arrangement and we can get a customer to volunteer. Review that as a winwin, it theyre willing to accept the alternative. Commissioner evans, you said that what happened with the flight that dr. Dao was on was not in accordance with your guidelines for the Law Enforcement or the police officials. Push a button and put your microphone on, how do we refer people who got on the plane . Commissioner evans they are nonswarmed security personnel. Their primary responsibility is to enforce the federal people wholaws, so patrolled the perimeters, who are in certain areas of the airport that have a proper badge. You think they didnt comport to what you say your procedures were . Commissioner evans the details of exactly what was said is being thoroughly investigated by the inspector general. In terms of what they were thinking or why they did what they did, i have to wait for the findings of that report to know. Do you think it is a lack of training . Commissioner evans we certainly will enhance our training. I think that its such an infrequent event, we cant actually find another instance. Its so infrequent for, in particular, those officers. Normally, it is Chicago Police who boards the plane. We have made it clear in the future that those aviation Security Officers will not board the plane. They are to wait for Chicago Police. We have 6. 5 million passengers a year, a month, go through ohare, 6. 5 million a month. So this is a very rare occurrence, so theres no question that training for such an infrequent event needs to be enhanced because of the severity of it. Certainly the directives need to be crystal clear. Miss nelson, just one quick question here and well have to be concise or ill violate my own rule to try to keep us to five minutes. And i may have to ask it a different way. But my question will be, both united and commissioner evans suggested that people arent going to get on planes anymore except with great, one phrase was great physical risk, what does that do if you are on the plane to your ability to deal with a passenger who doesnt want to be dealt with . Commissioner evans if we are on the plane and someone doesnt want to be dealt with, we have to advocate through the flight deck that we have a security concern. In those cases we should be having assistance from Law Enforcement. There are other tools that the airline can use, and we would be working together as a team with the flight deck, with the Ground Service coordinators, and it may be that the entire plane needs to deplane. These are some of the tools we have to date to deal with that but we do need the assistance of , Law Enforcement when it is a safety or security issue. We will see how this goes and if i need to come back to this topic. Senator cantwell i have been listening to the testimony across the board and i want you to know that nobody has fought harder during the time that wall street prices drove fuel for airlines up quadrupleing and costing us. So we were there and many people came and participated in those press conferences and what it was doing to the industry. I was also there when last year or two years ago when we put an faa bill together and we didnt give Flight Attendants the same rest time as pilots. We should correct that this time and make sure that there is even parity. So i understand the larger challenges to the Airline Industry, but it is still no excuse for dehumanizing the aspects of passenger travel and just making them part of someones business plan. We have to put this in this game of monopoly but not giving the passengers a fair end of the stick. So i do want to get to you, miss greenberg, about what you think should be in the passenger bill of rights, because i have my own ideas. Mr. Kirby, are you saying that mr. Daos flight was not an overbooked flight . Mr. Kirby no, maam. It was overbooked by one but we had a customer removed before boarding. The situation with mr. Dao was caused by putting four crew members on the airplane. After the flight was boarded. Policies we have changed so it cannot happen again. Senator can tell senator what do you consider that, putting four crew member on a flight . I think its your definition of overbooking that was wrong. And so youre parsing words here which does not give me the faith that you fully understand the severity of the situation. By that i mean that the airlines are treating passengers as an algorithm. Theyre part of a computerbased system where when you want to take someone off the flight, you go to the person as in mr. Daos case who doesnt have a frequent flier, paid the lowest fare, checked in at the last boarding time, so you basically are picking by algorithm who you want to kick off of a flight. To now think that you can say that overbooking here at the hearing this morning does not include your crew members, you have to compensate for the traveling of your crew members but you cant then get an exemption of, well, thats not overbooking. So im really befuddled by the fact that youre parsing this in a way this morning that thinks, that makes me think, this is whats going to end up in a passenger bill of rights. Were going to tell you how you can and cant operate to protect consumers and the traveling public. Were not going to turn them into an algorithm of whose ticket is going to get booted off because you are going to continue to communicate this or. Mr. Kirby maam, i sorry if im am not communicating well. We do use the term overbooking when the airline is selling more tickets than there are to then there are on the airline. You should include your part as part of that and stop using them as an addition to the overbooking. You need to compensate for them before. Mr. Kirby yes, maam. If you want us to legislate that, we will because were not going to run into the same situation. Mr. Kirby we will do that. In this occasion, their previous flight got cancelled. That is like they were booked at the last minute. When we normally travel crews, we book them and take a seat out of inventory for them. Miss greenberg, what do you think we should do about this issue as it relates to the fact that i think they still want a little bit of room on changes in flights and schedules and getting crew to a certain location . What do you think we should do about that . Miss greenberg i think the issue of overbooking these days is really a thing of the past, it ought to be, because every passenger who pays has paid up front for their ticket. There should be no instances when you pay for a ticket and youre sitting in your seat and youre taken off the flight. We dont understand why that needs to happen since the airlines in the old days were out of pocket because people would make reservations on five different flights and wouldnt show up for perhaps four of them. But now all the airlines have that money in the bank and so we think that they ought to accommodate, be accommodating to the fact that all those seats are paid for and i dont understand why we continue to have this problem with overbooking, why Airlines Continue to overbook and are pocketing those profits sometimes twice over. What do you think, any of the panelists, who should be making these decisions in the context of now were hearing from the airlines that theyre no longer going to do this, that theyre going to compensate people in a range of fees but my question is, whos going to decide that and whos going to make these decisions along the way . I feel Like Airlines are basically leaving too much of this to interpretation at the gate level. We need to build a culture into the airlines who are going to have management who are responsible for these decisions and actions and not just pushing it down either to the Flight Attendants or the gate people to enforce. One of the things we mentioned in her testimony is we would like to see a European Union style system where youre guaranteed a certain level of compensation for a flight thats cancelled, delayed, depending on how long the flight is delayed and the distance youre going. European consumers have far more robust Consumer Protection than we do in the United States and we dont understand why that should be. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Chairman sen. Wicker . Wicker booker senator mr. Kirby, since this incident in chicago, how has business been at united . Mr. Kirby while this was a horrible incident that was a terrible incident to all of us at united, for the most part everything at united is going really well. Thats one of the things that is also disappointing to us because operationally united is running the best airline in history that weve ever run. Senator wicker how is your, how are your boardings . Have you had as many bookings as before . Mr. Kirby sir, it is impossible for us to see in the data. Senator wicker how has your stock been in the last three weeks since this incident . Mr. Kirby our stock initially went down but it has recovered since, but are senator wicker as a matter of fact, its higher now than it was the day of the incident, is that correct . Mr. Kirby yes, sir. Sen. Wicker what do you think that says . I think it says that youve got the passenger where you want him. I think it says theres not enough competition in the industry, and people that had to fly with united before still have to fly with united if they want to get somewhere. And there really is no choice so business is really back where it was. I remarked to my wife when i heard on tv how much the stock muchropped. I remarked to my wiw the stock had dropped. If i didnt mind disclosing it, if i werent a public official, i would see it as a buying opportunity, because it was obvious to me that the passenger has nowhere else to go. Its not surprising to me that your stock has returned, because your boardings are going to be about the same. If the traveling public wants to boycott united as a result of this outrageous incident, which you say youve corrected, they really dont have a way to boycott you, do they . Sir, there is a lot of competition. They have a way to boycott. I would like to think that our stock recovery is because we truly are going to fix the airline and make the customers the center of everything we do. That commitment that weve adopted is going to help us not only improve for customers but help us improve for our employees, and that will lead to better results for the shareholders. We absolutely are committed to improving, and our customers do have great competition in the Airline Industry. Miss greenberg, what is your view . Cracks 80 of flights across the country are being run by four airlines. If i fly out of chicago, i pretty much in many instances , there is no place for me to go if i want to boycott united because of this, correct . Correct. 40 of the largest 100 airports a Single Airline controls the majority of the market. At a staggering 93 of the top 100 airports, one or two airlines control a majority of seats. An increase from 78 airports in 1995. Cracks how are we doing on people with disabilities, particularly disabled veterans . Its my understanding that in 2015, more than 30,000 passengers filed disabilityrelated complaints with the airlines, and in 2016, 862 complained directly to the federal government. In 2015, 944 complained directly to the federal government. Miss pinkerton, how are the airlines doing in that regard . That is in issue we have paid extension attention to in the couple of years. In fact, the last faa extension bill that this committee passed had two provisions relating to access for the disabled. I sat in on the first issue that was mandated and that was the gao study to look at how carriers are training our crew s with respect to how they handle wheelchairs, damaged wheelchairs, et cetera. From that, dot created new training that carriers are incorporating into their own training. The second issue was that you all required a rule making, and that rule making got under way. It was a negotiated rule making. Carriers sat down with the disabled community and dot and engaged in a negotiated rule making. We came up with longterm and shortterm solutions. There was agreement. For the longterm, we agreed on a larger lavatory for single aisle planes. In the shortterm, there were three things again related to training and better information, both for the disabled community about what their rights were but also for airline crew. Also, there is a label that will be put on planes that have an International Standard that is like a Good Housekeeping seal of approval if they meet certain criteria. With respect, i know senator cantwell is not here, but she mentioned paralyzed veterans. We have had an ongoing dialogue with them. Theyve asked us not to talk publicly yet about what agreements we are coming to, but i can tell you that those conversations are progressing. We recognize that this is an issue, and weve been taking it seriously in working on it. I think that things are changing. If i can please take the opportunity to respond to your concerns about competition, because its a narrative ive heard. I think the reason the narrative about theres no competition doesnt work is because weve got proof that theres competition. The proof is according to the bureau of transportation statistics. Than theylower today ever have been as a percentage of disposable income. They are down from 1995. We have more seats added. Have seenorts increases in seats. We have added a net of 54 new destinations. You were also talking about Customer Service earlier. Independent study by jd powers and the Consumer Satisfaction index i think maybe you have not seen the stock change, because people realized what was a completely unacceptable event, and should never happen again, was extremely rare. That it is not indicative of the things that our employees serve to the traveling public in the 2. 2 million passengers and 27,000 flights we have every day. Much, mr. Ou very chairman, for holding this hearing. I asked for this hearing as well as many other members you today among up because i think everyone was outraged by this video. This deeply disturbing video of dr. Dao being dragged off of this plan. I think everyone in this room, including the airline executives, now agree this should never have happened. That was the result of a series of failures and fault flawed policies. The purpose of todays hearing is not only on the single incident, but to make sure that passengers are treated fairly and with the respect they deserve. I have pushed hard for some of these other safety and cost measures we have worked on. I will start with you, mr. Kirby. Clearly, one of the failures during this flight incident was not offering passengers greater compensation to volunteer to be pumped bumped when the were on the over bookings flight. I understand that uniteds new policy allows customers to be compensated up to 10,000. Will the compensation be offered in all cases or will there be restrictions . We do have a certain limit, and then it escalates all the way up to 10,000. It does require an escalation of increasing levels of management. The gate limits are greatly increased from where they were before. One of the other things we are doing is having annual training to help gate agents with this process and the escalating situations as well. One of the findings in a report was that we did not do an adequate job of getting training to agents so that they could discern so they could deal with this very difficult situation. You mentioned in your testimony, united made adjustments to its overbooking policies. That there will be a reduction of overbooking on flights that have featured lower volunteer rate such as smaller aircraft and last flights of the day. How significant will the reduction be on these flights . Will united continue to overbook on flights outside of these categories . The kind of deductions we talked about i will give you a a simple statistic. The biggerave problem we tend to have the bigger problems on the 50 feet regional jets. About 50 of our flights he for were overbooked by one. Those have now gone to zero. So, it is about a reduction of half of the flights. As to the rest of the system, we will be lowering across the board, because the cost of of over cost boarding is now much higher. Du have a suggestion on how to make it easier to make do you have a suggestion on how to make it easier for Airline Passengers to understand their rights . We thinktand there should be europeanstyle posters up everywhere that tell passengers what their flights are. We think there should be bumpedation if you are from a flight. Those are rights and protections you mean those would be things that are required to put up in an airport . Correct. You can see those in the European Union. We want that for the people of the United States as well. Thank you. Discussedstimony, you andurbing reports of verbal physical assault on Flight Attendants in the wake of some of these incidents. You say that Flight Attendants can get caught in the middle of a us against them mentality which makes it harder for them to do their duties. What Additional Support do they need outside of their training that you think airlines should give Flight Attendants to make sure they can do their job . That you, senator. One thing we have seen over the years is moving to informing passengers which has put us in a quagmire of doing our Safety Compliance checks are not having the ability to enforce those so that some people are able to get away with not halloween Safety Policies which could put everyone else in danger. This is already a problem. The biggest problem that we see is that we do not have the staffing we used to have prior to september 11, 2001. As we have more passengers, capacity has been cut. We do not have enough Flight Attendants to deescalate. Attendants do in a credible job of deescalation conflict every single day with these flights getting out without incident. We are that this is something we have to deal with every single day. To dore were more people that kind of work, we could do it more effectively. There are no minimums at the gate and on the plane, and so we cannot effectively communicate with each other. We have problems coming down to the airplane door more often, because the gate agents are not catching the things they would typically catch at the gate area. That is causing problems on the plants. We would like to be part of implementing the policies to make sure that they work on the plane. Thank you, very much. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you all for being here today. Hearingis that todays is the beginning, rather than the end, of convert of congresss oversight role of protecting consumers and those who work on airlines. , ms. Nelson,in with a question to you. Thank you and everyone who works with you, everyone who serves on our plans for their immense service and sometimes sacrifice to the airlines to which they work. Can you give me some assessment cabins . Uality in the a lot of people get onto the plains with no concept practice has been an issue issue fors been an the union for decades. We have an issue that still remaining which is the bleed air bledis led from the from the engine and into the cabin. It can affect the crew at a high rate because they are often working harder. Basic illness as well as feeling fatigued. It can even lead to longterm effects like memory loss and inability to function. We have had crews who have become completely incapacitated because of this. It is an issue that needs to be addressed. We thank you for working on this. We need to identify when these things are happening, so that we can have sensors on the plane and you data gathering so we can and do data gathering so we can make sure that everyone on the planes are safe. And this applies to people who are flying the plane as customers and Flight Attendants . Our Work Environment is your travel environment. The difference is that work Flight Attendants work harder and are thus greater affected. And the pilots, too. As well as children, because they have smaller bodies and lungs. So, it is likely to affect the more. Correct. In the short time that i have , let me say to all of you that i am working on a passenger bill of rights that will expand the purse the current rights that are in our statutes. One thing that is clear to me from this episode and countless other incidents, there is now a capacity for them to go viral. That is only spreading more information about them. They have always occurred, and they will not be corrected by the airlines themselves. The actions by united that had been done so far which are only. Oluntary the raising of compensation ofels or providing limits the length of time that airlines to keep passengers stuck on the tarmac, the loss of bags, those kinds of rules are completely inadequate and completely voluntary. They ought to be made a matter of statute, and they should be consumers needse rights. That is why i will submit a passenger bill of rights as this Committee Considers a reauthorization bill in the coming week. I am open to working with you. I have outlined some of the provisions which are raising compensation levels to multiples of the ticket price when passengers are bumped. I understand the airlines argument that has to overbook , but they also have to bear the financial burden that right now is passed to consumers when those flights are overbooked. So, i will propose legislation that will stop the kind of and it willee now, provide for greater compensation for passengers. It will prohibit taking passengers off of planes involuntarily and the use of Law Enforcement for that purpose along with other measures and compensation for delays or cancellation. Right of action for individuals against airlines with the potential for punitive damages which will send a financial and moral message as well as other steps dividing for greater charges,e of fees and bags, checked bags, carryon luggage, and so on and so forth. That is a rough outline, and i would like to submit it now that you will work with me on this endeavor. Is there anyone who would object to these ideas or at least working with me on them . We would be happy to work with you, senator. Many of the things you have outlined, whether it is eliminating the cap on compensation, saying we are not going to take a person off of the plane, not calling Law Enforcement, all of those things are things that carriers have said that they are voluntarily willing to do and implement today. My time has expired. Thank you, senator blumenthal. You, mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding this hearing today. It is particularly timely. There have been recent incidents that have involved Airline Passengers that has gone way beyond even what seasoned travelers have ever seen. Obviously, we saw that in the video with the united flight two weeks ago. The video really was shocking. If there is anything positive in all this, it is that Many Airlines seem to be changing policies as a result of some internal reviews and selfexamination. That is exactly what should happen. I hope all the attention that is now being paid to the treatment of passengers will lead to longterm, meaningful improvements in the passenger experience. If not, there will be increasing interest on this committee and congress. I also want to say at the same it is very important that passenger frustrations do not lead to unnecessary confrontation. Safety is still the paramount consideration in air travel. The current level of safety is something we can all be proud. We do not want to resist lawful inappropriate instruction from line personnel that could sometimes, pacing and patience and understanding could go a longer way. Before the Airline Incident, how common was it for airline Security Officers to board an aircraft and what types of situations where they normally dealing with . It is very rare for aviation Security Officers normally, the Chicago Police make those responses. We are correcting that. Situation we do not know of anything similar in our records. Most commonly, the complaints that come are from unruly passengers. People who will not obey instructions from the flight crew, or an altercation between two passengers of some sort. Type ofthe most common disturbance that we get on an aircraft. It is fairly rare. We had six and a half music one 5 million passengers a month through ohare. We had 6. 5 million passengers a month through ohare. Maybeaircraft, we have four or five incidents. In total, they are pretty rare. We are terribly sorry that this incident was not handled correctly. This incident has affected the whole industry. How confident are you in the steps that you and your company are taking . I am highly confident that the situation that happened here cannot happen again, because the policies will not allow it to happen again. We will take it beyond that it use this as a watershed moment for United Airlines, it we will go beyond simply preventing this from happening again and truly will put the customer at the center of everything we do, and we hope this will have a Silver Lining and make us a Better Airline today than we were before by that change of focus. There are always factors outside of your control, but consumers do have an expectation that they will get what they pay for when they buy an airline ticket. As a followup to that question, what steps does what steps will united take two generally improve what can often be a stressful travel experience for your customers especially in light of the knowledge that outside factors can upset the normal operating plan . It is true that travel can be a stressful experience. We had a terrible incident this last month. We are proud of the progress we have made in running a better operation. Set new alltime records, and in 2017 we are setting records. Our employees are delivered are delivering phenomenal Customer Service. I cannot walk around chicago without hearing about how our Flight Attendants are doing such a good job. We are growing in our options for customers. We feel good about the future. Still, something with this never should have happened. Culturea rulesbased which is appropriate for safety, and that got in way in the way of common sense for customers. It just seems like there should be an operating plan just in regards to some of these contingencies that are maybe not so frequent, but certainly do occur. Very quickly, ms. Nelson, do you on your members who are the front line of an industry see more more confrontation . What are your options if a passenger starts refusing instruction from Flight Attendants . And can cause a safety problem for everyone on board. Take for example the fasten seat belt sign. We saw recently the incredible where then a flight airplane had turbulence, and people were thrown from the plane. If you are up, you can injure other people on the plane. If you do not follow instruction from the flight in tendons, it can cause harm from the Flight Attendants, it can cause harm to everyone around. We have also had the problem with video recording and the diversionary tactics which can be used by terrorists to get around crew attention and function. These are some of our grave concerns in addition to the fact that there is an atmosphere out there right now that Flight Attendants are facing that is just generally dangerous. We have reports of people who have touched Flight Attendants inappropriately, and when Flight Attendants have told them to stop, they have told them, what are you going to do . Drag me out of here . This is not acceptable. The point about having placards in the gate area, it needs to be reinforced to follow the flight crew instructions for safety and security. We need more staff to handle these issues and deescalate situations. The reality is that when aviation workers saw that video, we were horrified. It is not a representation of who we are, how we take care of our passengers every single day, and how we care very deeply about making this a good experience for the people in our care. Thank you. Senator nelson . I think that is certainly a true statement that you said. If anyone wants to feel good about an airline, watch the movie sully about captain sullenberger. The way that crew operated under extremely dangerous circumstances which is not a hollywood, made up movie. Life. As realized real you saw the Flight Attendants working with the captain. Who was the last person to get off the plane . The captain. I want to shift gears a little bit. I know you have been beat upon mr. Kirby. Of course, people are upset about all of this that has happened. But lets shift gears a bit. Lets talk about things that make common sense. Unitedpast month, i flew , and i got to the airport at the appointed time. My flight was late, and i looked low and behold on the board, there is an earlier flight that is going to my destination and it was late. Date lked to that that gate, and in fact they were loading passengers and had seat s. I am on the next flight. I would like to go on this flight if you had seats. And they did have seats, but they said that will be 75 extra. Business, on official and i did not think that was a good expenditure of senate funds, but it was a policy of the airline that made no sense. You have seats. By the way, on the next flight which was mine, you did not have seats. Going on the earlier flight, it would have opened up a seat for the later flight, and yet according to your policy i was going to be required to pay an additional 75. It is those kinds of rules that maybe you have a reason for it, it its a distant not just does not make sense and is not in your interest either. You need to accommodate the traveling public. Let me give you another example. Major airlines, included united, typically charge consumers 200 or more for changing or canceling a domestic flight. Fees for International Flights can run many hundreds of dollars. Now, it appears that united has introduced a new type of fare. Basic economy is what you call it. No changes are allowed at all. In that case, consumers lose the the consumerhen booking typically receives little notice on all these additional penalties. So what is the correlation for change and cancellation fees and costs incurred by united . Senator, thank you for your business and i apologize for your bad experience you had on united. That is not a bad experience. All is a policy that you lost a cd couldve filled on an oversold flight. I think are policy and the situations shouldve let the good on the earlier flight, but i will confirm that after this hearing. That would have been the normal policy. Economyur basic policy is one that first we try to clearly communicate to customers, the restrictions associated with the product. The goal is to offer lower fares and try to offer our customers choice. One of the great things in a deregulated environment is we can offer more choice. For customers willing to give up some of those restrictions and except the restrictions, they get a lower price. We think that is good for consumers. About 35 customers are choosing that lower fair. 65 of customers are choosing the regular economy fair. It comes with more restrictions. I recognize the frustration around change fees. It is part of our view of what lets us offer lower fares for customers that bought in advance. We offer fares that are fully changeable and come with no penalty, no restrictions. They are more expensive. It is part of our policies. It is part of the rationale of offering customers choice by offering them different products. We can let them choose what is most appropriate to them. Fares lwo. Ep low. . It is not a direct cost. Was about 900 million in revenue at United Airlines in 2016. If it does not save you money, you may want to put yourself in the place of the consumer. Things come up. They need to change their flight. But it then becomes so prohibitive they cant. And therefore, they are inconvenienced. If there is not a direct cost associated to you that you are having to pay, you may want to think of putting yourself in the shoes of the consumer. Mr. Chairman, i know we have lots of numbers and im going to stop. What i would like to do is to insert for the record for mr. Kirby some questions about his systems,ems i. T. And then about Airline Passenger bill of rights, and in this pinkerton and mr. Kirby questions about interairline agreements. Everyone will have a chance of summit questions for the record. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I was enjoying your comments. My daughterinlaw is a retired Flight Attendant. I have heard a lot of things before that i could probably add to what you said. You hear a lot of negative things about the industry. Maybe i am biased because american has a huge presence, a huge footprint my state of oklahoma, my city of tulsa. I have worked with them over the years when i was mayor of tulsa. Things would come up. My experience has been good in terms of focusing on using technology to swiftly inform consumers of any disruptions to travel. They have invested billions of dollars in airport terminals and all these things. There are some things that are going on that have been good, in my experience. Ms. Pinkerton, when we talk things,e wish to change are there any obstacles that airlines have enough being able to do some the things that we might be thinking they can do unilaterally . Are other obstacles and make it more difficult to make changes . I would note the Mercator Center said the airline is the six most highly regulated industry in the country. Some of those things are safety regulations. I would say even with some of the safety regulations, the way they are implemented is a onesizefitsall. Whether that is the flight and duty rules, etc. I think there are some modifications that could be made so there is not the Operational Impact we seize we see from some of those rules. What gives us more positive economic rules of the industry, that things like the advertising rule that tells us you cant advertise your products. You have to advertise it all in. We are one of the few industries that that is required of. And it was a push now to try to force us to do business with certain people. For example, there is a move that says you have to give your information to cheapo air. We wanted to make those decisions ourselves about how we do business with. It is things like that but we would like to see Less Government intervention. I think a lot of this rulemaking are wellintentioned, but they end up tying our hands and costing consumers more. We are all here talking about the consumer and i think one of the things the consumer values is lower fares we have been able to bring. And of course more service. Frankly the more financially stable we are in the more freedom we have to do our business, we are going to be a lower fares, able to add seats, we will be a will to pay our employees more, had more jobs. Add more jobs. You have to take those considerations. Ive listen to a lot of good ideas expressed by people. Kirby, what you have done. I guess this question would be for you. The tragedy of that flight, that is awful to see the pictures. Of public out there is at a level of outrage that is unprecedented. What you have done in 30 days is pretty amazing. You have already settled a lawsuit, increased incentives are passengers to give up their seats and a lot of other things. I have been around here a long time. Maybe we have solutions in the government, but i dont recall any time we have been able to work as fast as you guys have in correcting a problem. I want to keep that in mind. I dont know a lot of things that can be done. I am concerned. I want to ask you because i think it might be unfair, so i will go back to this pinkerton. Miss pinkerton. He said a lot of the laws imposes response to this could cause more issues than it would resolve . I absolutely do. A onesizefitsall rulemaking approach does not work for this industry. We have seen that time and time again with unintended consequences. The tarmac delay rule ended up causing more cancellations, so people were more inconvenienced by it. I think that we have seen todays airlines recognize we need to step up on Customer Service. We are willing to do that voluntarily. It is to your benefit. The idea that you have to be forced to do things, you are the guy that pays for all this. I think everyone would agree to that. When i was chairman for a number of years of the environmental and public works committee, were all the regulations came in was for epa regulations. Saywe tried to do was to any regulation that comes along, to have to put a price tag on it. I dont admonish my friends if they are involved in various proposed legislation donated to the same things. You can make these changes but it will cost you. The cost of the ticket, is a huge thing. Everything i have heard suggests it will impact that. I think it might be a good idea for anyone it comes up with these good ideas to give credible evidence as to how thats going to affect the most important aspect, that is the cost of their ticket. Thank you, senator. We will work through these questions. If anybody needs to take a break on the panel, as long as you take them one at a time, we can probably get to you by the time you get back. Senator martin . My experiences this would be a good time for everybody to take a break. [laughter] i hear you. Chairman. Ou, mr. For all the other passengers strapped in their seatbelts, the writing can still be rocky before the end of this hearing. Airline fees are as high as the plane passengers are flying on. It is time to stop the rapid ascent. To hundred dollars change and 200 change fees and cancellation fees which it be more than the value of the original tickets. That on top of charging as much as 25 for the first checked bag, 35 for the second bag. Do a roundtrip with two bags. Reaped 4. 2irlines billion in baggage fees and 2. 9 billion in change and cancellation fees. That is 7. 1 billion in one year. Passengers are getting upside down at the ticket counter, and neighbo and they deserve relief. With the epidemic is only growing. Some airlines are now charging passengers for carryon bags. To print boarding passes, and for blankets to keep their children warm. That is outrageous. The airlines have replaced the Customer Service counter with a customer suffering counter as they get the bill for each one of these things, which they should expect to come with flying. With lackfrustration of choice and outrageous fees continues to rise. That is why i reintroduced the fair fees act, which ensures airline fees are reasonable and proportional to the cost of the provided. Senator blumenthal and i are introducing that bill. The fair fees act but to stop the fee gouging and will help ensure passengers are flying the fair and from the skies. My bill will finally ground these ridiculous fees. Mr. Greenberg, is it reasonable to charge passengers 200 to change or cancel their flight even if the passenger changes the reservations well in advance . Even if the passenger purchases the ticket for less than 200 . Even if the airline resells the seat to another passenger at an even higher price . Is that fair . The airlinewe think cancellation fees are outrageous. They dont reflect the cost of the airline accommodating reservation changes or cancellations. They actually, has indicated, they can resell the sea for much more extensively than the original cost. In 2016, they brought in nearly 3 billion in revenue. Things happen. Peoples plans change. Somebody might get sick. You are stuck and there is no forgiveness for those fees. I have experienced it. The passengers let us know how frustrated they are by this. We support your bill as we think there ought to be a relationship between the cost of revoking somebody rebooking somebody. This is a standard carryon bag. Millions of passengers all across the country are forced to jam a weeks worth of clothing into this bag to avoid paying an 120 if the bags get checked. Is it reasonable to charge a bagsn 120 to check the that are going back and forth on a weeks trip because they cant jam at all into one bag . No. We agree with Southwest Airlines president several days ago in the house. Mayaid we think passengers want to carry their close along clothes along and we should not charge them for checking about. Check bags are optional. Is this carryon bag a viable option for a passenger traveling from boston to l. A. For a week . Of course not. You have to carry your belongings, toiletries, so no, you have no choice. The bottom line is these are not reasonable and i am going to fight very hard to make sure these fees are checked in this faa authorization bill, which will we will which we will be considering. Mr. Nelson, give us your thoughts on mobile devices in the passenger cabin. Can you tell us the Flight Attendants view of that . Is the same as the public use them. We do not want them on the plane. It will create more conflict on the plane and the dot or through the faa reauthorization bill which is what the final nail in the coffin and make sure there are no voice calls in the cabin. We have very serious security concerns and we also have a peace of flight concerns. Thank you, mr. Chair, are Ranking Member and to the panel that is here. I know its been a long morning. Te all agree the recen incident united forced the customer from the aircraft want to knowledge united in other airlines have begun efforts to make reforms so this kind of treatment never happens again. Thank you, mr. Kirby for that. Point some of the other senators have raised, this incident does not represent just a onetime occurrence or a onetime mistreatment. Constituents all across the Granite State and im sure many individuals in this room have experienced routinely unpleasant flying episodes on one of the major airlines. In fact, just last year the Department Transportation attracts incidents like these received 17,904 complaints across the industry. Those are just the cases that are reported. I understand about percentages and statistics, but if youre one of those people statistics dont make much of a difference to you. It is not acceptable that we have this level of difficult occurrences. We cant just for our hands and say, thats the way it always has to be. Over in my view in many of my constituents, can we say voluntary action by the airlines is enough. That is what ive introduced, along with some of my colleagues, the tickets act and would approve transparency, review overbooking policies, guarantee customers have a right to fly, and other commonsense reforms. Im glad united has made voluntary measures, taking them. And sends a nice message but its not the same thing as a guarantee. Consumers want to know that united will not change its mind later when the industry changes in the finances change. I believe consumers deserve to fly safely and comfortably, particularly at a time of the industry is earning record profits. Believe me, my constituents are aware of that. To working with me and my staff as we approach the faa reauthorization measures like those included in the tickets act that will improve air travel for customers . Yes, we are happy to work with you, senator. I want to urge caution. As we discussed previously, many of the items in your legislation do make sense. Thats why carriers have stepped up and said yes, it doesnt make sense for us to remove the passenger from a plane. Caution ini do urge going into this kind of mandatory onesizefitsall approach because what we have seen in the past is that there are unintended consequences. It does end up increasing the know theravel, which i members on this committee feel strongly about service to their local communities. We just need to be cognizant of those. I understand that. You always have to balance this, but i think a lot of my constituents within the airlines treats them in a onesizefitsall manner and they are not treated as individuals and customers with rights. We already democracy and peoples money is supposed to have value, and buy them a certain expected experience. We agree. Mr. Kirby . Wii will absolutely look forward to engaging with you and your staff on all these issues. Thank you. Ms. Greenberg, do you have comments or thoughts on the act . We support the tickets act. We believe it offers a lot of positive benefits to consumers, including the issue of not allowing involuntary bumping, eliminating limits on compensation for bumping, limiting overbooking practices which we have talked about. We dont understand why there are overbooking habits. And requiring appropriate disclosures by the carriers. Yes, we think its a great bill and we look forward to working with you on it. Because my time is running down and its been a long day, i will submit the other two questions for the record. I just want to note not only do i share the concerns about whether overbooking is still a policy that makes sense in this day and age, im very concerned that airlines have had policies that bump the passengers who either are not frequent flyer members or have bought the lowest priced tickets first since they are often people who can afford to buy cant afford to buy higherpriced tickets will become frequent flyers. That seems unfair. I will note, ms. Nelson, teleported working with you on some of the issues you have raised on behalf of Flight Attendants. Please appreciate the difficult work you do and the importance of the noble of being able to deescalate situations and travel safely. D . Senator hillar i want to thank her panel for being here. I realize this is no longer a but i would like to get to my questions. The first question is i want to make sure were all on the same page, and that is we realize passengerlights and care does determine the quality of any trip an individual goes on. The reason im saying this is obviously a state like nevada, in tourism is an important function for us. Its not just las vegas, hawaii, orlando, new york, where they want to fly. Air travel is just as important sometimes as the experience they may have other destinations. I tell you that the same is. I asked a few years ago potomac from the a government from that of the build hotels when he does not build hotels in northern nevada. You said because of the fact that when you fly in to northern nevada, its the airport at lake tahoe or in reno, the flight is so turbulent he doesnt leave anybody would come back after doing that one or two times. Technology has increased substantially, and is not nearly as bad as it was 15, 20 years ago. Thats a good thing. Here is my reason. Year, and maybe you can answer this, there was an amendment by mr. Schumer on a bill. I dont recall what bill it was. He was going to regulate and determine the size of seating should be in an airplane. Do you recall that . Yeah. There have been several bills introduced to focus on the shrinking size of seats, the shrinking aisles, is shrinking baggage area and shrinking bathrooms. Does your organization have a position on it . We think this move toward various hese getting through an airplane, legroom, is a dangerous trend. It makes it harder for passengers to get in and out. It creates safety hazards. People have to deplane. Gimmicks it difficult for citizens with disabilities to get in and out of an airplane. We do think there has to be some limits. The airlines dont seem to Pay Attention to much to the discomfort of consumers because we had American Airlines today announcing they are going to shrink yet again. Yeah, if the Airlines Stop shrinking size, we dont think there would be any for such a bill. Unfortunately, we dont have a whole lot of control us we have legislation. What is more important . The room, the seats or your trading goes up and down front of you . They put a lot of emphasis on that tray. Whats more important . Certainly the distance between seats i think is the thing i would look at. Also the size of the bathroom. And the size of the isles and the overhead luggage. I think its creating a very tense and frustrating situation for passengers. Mr. Kirby, to support legislation that would determine the amount legroom in an airplane . No, sir. The reason is we want to offer customers choice. It costs the same to fight her plane fly in her fine regardless of family seats. Choice with the cost. If you fly economy plus, you have to pay more. Fares have come down dramatically. Part of that is putting more seats in airplanes. Some of the bills will not have that much affect on united because most are already compliant with minimums. With airlines you to be taking 10 to 20 of seats off the airplane. It would cost the exact same to fly the airplane. It is economically, if we go up 10 to 20 . One of the great things that happened for consumers is declining airfares. The bureau of transportation statistics said real fares in chicago in the last 25 years are down 53 . That is possible because there are more people on and points. You are taller than six feet. You have to pay more than someone who is shorter than six feet . No sir. Are you more discomforted when you are taller . Yes, sir. Gh how about if you wei under or more than 200 pounds . Larger yougining are, the less comfortable on an airline or any other seat. This says American Airlines this is out of cnn is planning to decrease the front the backspace on economy seats by another two inches. American airlines is the only one heading in this direction. United airlines is considering a similar move. It goes on to say as of they match each other, 29 inches becomes the standard for fine economy. Will become your standard . I dont know for sure with the standard will be. The majority procedure 31 inches or more. Some of the new seats have more personal space. Notes are probably the right metrics anymore. We will endeavor to keep being competitive on what customers want and offering lower rates. Are you saying i apologize. You will not get out of 29 inches . Im not saying one way or another. We are not making final decisions. Senator cortez . Thank you all for this enlightening discussion. I want to follow up with my colleague from nevada. And asked pointblank im not sure if youve answered the question, is united going to cut legroom or looking at doing . We are making some changes to existing aircraft today. None of those changes so far good and 29 inches. Right, but is a good to 28 inches . No. Youre at 31 inches, correct . I believe you have some airplanes it arose that are 30 inches. But by and large we are 31 inches or more today. Right now, no longterm plans to go down to 29, 28 inches . I dont know yet. You think thats part of Customer Choice . Yes maam. 30 inches, 31 inches today. We on every Airline Airplane offer seats that have more legroom, typically up to 34 inches in economy. Choices customers the whether they want the lowest fare or whether they want more. Legroom, is, larger that usually exit rows across or willis is it located on the plane . Exit rows and the front of the economy cabin. Not always because seating configuration is dependent on where the exit rows are for physical location perspective. The general rule, the front of economy and i could rose. People with disabilities have no choice within a take something at the front of the airplane because they normally cannot get back to the back of the airplane so they are paying more . I believe those customers are allowed to sit in a larger seats. I believe they are allowed to sit up front. Where are you based, chicago . Is maam. If you fly commercial . Sunday came out on sunday and if the commercial. Do you traditionally fly commercial . Yes. Did you fire on airline . I flew on a competing airline because and coming from phoenix. Economy or first class . 17e, economy. Are usually in economy or first class . 70 firstclass, 30 economy. When you fly economy even the back of the plane . I tend to be all over. I have a oneyearold and a threeyearold so we go or we can find seats. If we required all executives to fly on airplanes in the back of the plane, the Consumer Experience would be much better. Hear frustrating for me to that you were all about the consumer when every time i get on a commercial flight there is nothing but complaints and consumers because it is not enough room. There was not enough legroom. There is not enough choice even the decline to have choice. That the unfortunate part of all of this and thats why you see the frustration that you have here from all of us. Many of our consumers, are constituents, there is a problem. The other concern i have is what is happening to the Flight Attendants and the crew. They are bearing the brunt of that frustration from those consumers who are flying. My next question for you is, you heard ms. Nelson talk about concerns that are happening right now with the employees that are on the plane flying every single day from not enough staffing, to the fact that airlines forget or stop enforcing passengers of how they should handle themselves on the plane, to also not enough staffing at the gate or on the airplane to deescalate situations. What is united doing in response to mr. Nelsons concerns . Thank you for your concern and thank you mr. Nelson for being here today. Our Flight Attendants are there primarily for safety as their primary role. In supporting them in creating safety for everyone on the airplane, including employees and customers, is our top priority. They are incredibly important. I tell our people all the time the most important part of our product is not the seats or the meals, it is the Flight Attendants who interact with customers. They do remarkable things every day to take care of our customers. They have a difficult job. Empathy fordible what ms. Nelson says. We spent a lot of time engaged with Flight Attendant unions. One thing im proud of it united that has changed is the change have aly is that we great relationship and partnership. We dont agree on everything but we respect each other and we spent a lot of time talking to them. Some of them we dont always agree on, but we always listen, listen respectfully to them, and value and listen with an open mind and value their input. We will continue to do that. United airlines will be stronger in the long term by having a partnership with nice as the Flight Attendants, but with all of our employee groups. One of the things we are proud of we have really turned a corner on the last two years. My time is up. I dont want to keep it going but i would like to hear if there is a discussion in a particular situation with mr. Dao. I understand united was contracting out with republic airlines. I have not heard today specifically how and what type of controls and oversight that united has over those contractors, and what if anything you are doing now to take action against republic for what happened. Mr. Kirby, you will take that question for the record. Ms. Kapito. Think you for being here today. I was trying to figure out what question i wanted to ask so i could get the answer. We talked about the unfortunate incident that happened in chicago. And the frustrations of a lot of people surrounding that. One of the issues i think for me, and this is directed to you, mr. Kirby, and i think many of us is the best policy. I will do back to the gate now. You are back in the gate. Your flight is delayed and you can get no information. Why is it delayed . How long is it delayed . You know when a lot of cases they know. The gate agent knows. I could be making alternative plans. In my case it would probably be renting a car. What are your protocols at the gate to alleviate the frustration that builds when you know you are not getting the real answer . You, center. Senator. It is one of the things we need to improve. When i flew out here my wife flew from phoenix to dallas on another airline. They were tornadoes in texas. She was on a rolling four hour delay with a one euro and a threeyearold. Oneyearold and threeyearold and no one could tell her what was going on. Part of the problem is we dont have good information. I promise you are gate agents were nothing more than to tell you whats going on when they have information. Are they told to give us the information . A lot of times i think they are sitting on information. Dont understand the Flight Attendant could not get here because they couldnt get a cab from new york city. Are promise you get agents or Flight Attendants know. They are empowered to tell . Absolutely. We are. Appw creating a new where they can all talk to each other. A lot of times there is a dispatcher in chicago that might know whats going on but are handling 20 or 30 flights. They had not told the gate they have a collocated process to communicate. Usually its a Flight Attendant, pilot or gate agent calling management and asking to get bumped up the chain. We have to give them more direct medication. I would highly recommend that because i believe it would cool the temperature down before you get onto the flight. We plan to roll it out this year. Good. On the checked bag issue ive noticed recently, and we saw the back Conversation Congress and marquis had. Congressman markey had. There are some passengers who can get their bags all the way up. When they bring them down, other protocols around . Is that an issue for you will . It is an issue and a huge issue of passenger to passenger conflict. We have been working for many years to try to limit the amount of carryon baggage coming on board the flight. We were supportive of uniteds basic economy because it will limit the amount of baggage coming onto the plane, which will cut down on the injuries for Flight Attendants and passengers as well. And make it a safer flight. Yes, we have absolute concerns about this if we believe this is actually something that could be taken on. You tried to take it on in the past by having templates at tsa with the baggage does not get through if it doesnt be a certain size standard. This needs to be addressed for safety. If the Airlines Stopped charging 25, you would see the problem diminish substantially . It drives you to carry on, i agree with that. I want to go back to the first question asked. We dont have a mainline the comes to the trust and, West Virginia charleston, virginia. Moses regionals or subcontractors. Are your protocols that united going all but every subcontractor you have . Yes, maam. Under the united brand. Our view is whether a customer flying united or one of the regional partners is united brand and we need a hold it to the same standard. How customers are buying a ticket from United Airlines. We have to hold it to the same standards as we do the mainline. That good to know. Last comment, i dont know if we have time for an answer, miss pinkerton you have eluded numerous times to the plunging fares. When you live in an area that doesnt have a lot of service, has regionals, if i want to fly from charleston, West Virginia two dcn back, which i to d. C. And back, that 600 for a roundtrip flight. Could go togood, i hawaii or europe. I fly in a turboprop at 17,000 feet. How can you justify i dont understand the justification for such huge fares on such short hops in less offensive aircraft that are full. I hear your frustration, but i think the fares we talked about are obviously average yours and not necessarily o location specific. It is supply and demand. Your from a small town. Fares will be more expensive. We have good competition in this country. We have for Large International carriers and seven smaller domestic carriers. There are no barriers to entry. Its just a matter of which carrier wants to take on that service. Is a Business Case for doing so . Thats essentially what it boils down to. I think we need to be realistic about that in this country, about what types of Service Every Small Community can really afford to have. We want to grow service in the are growing service. What i can say is the more we regulate pricing, and especially senator markeys idea that regulating pricing. We used to regulate pricing in 1974. The flight to jfk to lax was 1480. Today it is 320. I can go there twice. With the competition would do wonders for your situation flying to West Virginia. We see the Big Four Airlines trying to scrub competition everyone that the stop. Senator duckworth. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I would like to thank the Ranking Member for convening todays hearing. Mr. Kirby, no one was united to succeed more than i. I then plus customers for 30 years. I joined when i was in college. Since 1986. It is clear to me the near fact we are here today that the incident aboard flight 3411 was embarrassing and reprehensible. I hope you agree with that description of it. Thank you. All United Airlines in the Chicago Department of aviation are working out the important steps to correct the policies that allow this incident to happen, i am really interested in how much more airlines can do the commitment to Customer Service and complying with the contract of carriage. Miss pinkerton, top a little bit about some of these issues. Has an industry representative an industry im interested in learning about when you highlight in your testimony. Can you help compile a list of reforms you have already taken to improve Customer Service and submit them for the record . Yes, i will do that. It is more detailed in my written testimony but with giving the greater inventory. Wonderful, thank you. Your Organization Successfully advocated for the late for a delay in the mishandled baggage and retail that would require Larger Airlines to report on how often the mishandled wheelchairs so air travelers with disabilities can easily compare carriers and make informed travel decisions. That the Airline Industry think this was in the consumers best interest . I think what you are referring to is the department of transportation, when they the ministries and changed, the hippopotamus they hit the path but on rulemaking. There is an executive order requires rulemaking to essentially be cost beneficial. I dont think hitting the possible on some of these puase button was not a decision on the role but an opportunity to look at the process and make sure that the administration is going to move forward, and if so, how. The assistant general counsel said it enough to the assistant general counsel at the u. S. Dot asking for a delay until january 2019, saying the industry is facing challenges with this regulation and we need more time to implement it. I think more time to implement something is eminently fair. I dont know if you were here earlier when i went through the list of things we have been doing to work with the disabled community, both on training, informationav size, the put out to our crews in the discussions were having with the pba. This is an area we have spent an enormous amount of time on in three years. We take it seriously and i think were making progress. Think thats an eminently reasonable request for more time. As someone who travels and has traveled the wheelchair for over a decade, i see no improvement. Is anything in the last 24 months ive had to wheelchairs broken and i dont see improved training of anyone, especially your baggage handlers. I am sorry. We want to fix that. It doesnt appear that way. It appears to me you are trying to delay something that is a sick as collecting data and making a transparent to the public. On the asking you to come up with special extra handling systems. All this rule does is says you have to report how many wheelchairs you break. As a consumer i would like to be able to look and see which airlines ontime rates for this particular flight is 80 , and the ontime rate for disability flights on a Different Airlines is good and i can choose. Consumers should be able to choose. I agree. I dont think thats an unreasonable thing. Individuals with disabilities are people too. I have seen Wounded Warriors on flights to miracle on a mountainside being manhandled on a flight. Further exacerbating their conditions. I have had to sit there and wait for my wheelchair to show up and it doesnt show up, or comes up in pieces. I have said i have been there, most recently just in the last several weeks where a wheelchair came up broken. Business multiple airlines. This is multiple airlines. And imperfect World Congress should not have to act. All travelers of the respected. I think all people with disabilities are asking for. I dont think it would be wanting to speed up the process, not delay, delay, delay. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator duckworth. Thank all of you for responding to questions. Thank you for the questions you will respond to. The record will remain open for two weeks. During that time senators consummate questions for the record. Submitu receive these, your written answer to the committee as soon as possible. This concludes the hearing. Thanks the witnesses. The hearing is closed. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2017] [crowd conversation] we had been watching a couple of hearings from the past week. A Senate Hearing in before that a house hearing on Airline Customer service. Now we would like to hear from you on what you think of airlines and Customer Service. You think the government should get more involved in mandating what that Customer Service should look like . You may have heard the term