mcgee, who on page 6 of the report said he was shocked to discover in 2008 that the framework document was not being implemented. how could bishop mcgee after all that's been revealed feel that way. we're told in 2003, bisp mcgee had a series of meetings to be held for all priests of the diocese to discuss the persistence crisis of the church in regard to child sexual abuse, it's even more outrageous he did not suche vise those who authorized to act on his behalf. i welcome the announcement that statutory report -- a stamp -- statutory reporting requirement will include a legal duty on the state to share relevant information and cooperate in the best interest of the child. it is, after all, the responsibility of the state to ensure that systems are i place that are capable of handling complaints in a comprehensive manner. >> 10 seconds. >> ok. i'm not at all confident that the system is robust enough and we've seen folks who -- social workers complain that their -- they're being blamed. i'm also appalled by the complaints being made about how people are being treated in the lower court and i hold that that's something that could be addressed in response to this report. >> [inaudible] >> the catholic diocese of cloyne further accentuates the problem. they have this ability to treat young children and children s cruelly, allowing abuse to continue. other nations have had their dark moments. the jewish nation has had the holocaust, the cambodian nation had tir killing field. we have had this abuse carried out by those in authority in the churchnd within families and while we may not have had the deaths others have had, there is a part of every young person that dies buzz of abuse. there were reservations about some of the priests while in training but they were obviously attracted to a position that gave them such scope for abuse. as one victim put it, damaged limitation rather than a genuine wish to help unreservedly. when the church did have guidelines in place which were very clear on theuty to report to the guardian, this was not done. there were -- they were keeping inadequate records and also trying to keep the complaint within the church. the complaints were handled properly. the complainants came forward to give evidence. the naming of the vatican also. the widespread sexual abuse of cler irks not just in ireland but in america and other countries with horrific effects. equal hi heartbreaking for those in religious lifeho are as appalled as we are by those in the same clace. cloyne said the standards adopted by the church would afford proper protection to children. that's the key, inch. . it also goes on to say standards set by the state are less precise and more difficult to implement. the state cannot afford to take the high moral ground here when there are cases being investigated of 200 young people who died in state care. we had the case just last week of the family who were abused. i ask that the bill include the national vetting bureau and children first guidelines. we have the measures now but we have to have the resources to match those. >> i also agree that government isight to be critical of the vatican. but i also think the change of wording from the original text is to be regretted. condemn has been downgraded to deplore and just looking at the dictionary definitions of them, condemn is to declare to be reprehensible, wrong or evil. whereas deplore means to feel or express grief to regret strongly. to consider unfortunate or deserving of depreciation. i certainly must refer to -- much prefer the use of condemned in this situation. there's absolutely no excuse for the behavior of the vatican. i wouldn't be in favor of expelling it because it's porn to keep communication lines open. but i think they have been deplorable. i also think the government should have to look at the whole relationship. the church has played too big a part in the fabric of our state and the sooner they're divided, the better for both parties. we need to focus on the conduct of state officials in this case and government departments, sufficient as the office for minister of children and youth affairs which is strongly criticized within the report. the commission found it interesting to contrast the investigations carried out by the h.s.c. and mr. eliot on behalf of the national board in this case. all investigations have access to the same material. the h.r.s. -- h.s.c. only look at the failure of reporting, but in the other he took a look at the approach. when they kid send a report to them, he seemed more eager for -- to absolve themselves of any influence or responsibility in the area. and i'd like -- it would be interesting to be get some answers as to why that was the case. the commission makes it clear that the official was more concerned with protecting the minister from strog get involved. this is the official who actually asked mr. eliot to withdraw his report, redo it in a nicer way, a bit softer manner, and send it on to the h.s.e. they make it clear they were more concerned with protecting the minister from having to get involved instead of dealing with the problem, which is the failure of the diocese to not implement child protective laws. it requires the minister to refer any catholic diocese which is not complying with either documentations of the firm's report or lines on child protection to the commission for investigation. this was not the responsibility of the h.s.c., it was a responsibility of the minister who along with his officials appeared to have wanted. >> the pain and suffering that people who have been victims of abuse by church institutions is just too horrific really to describe and in that context the catalog of abuse and coverup by the church authorities of that and failure to act is an absolute outrage and i think that's why this motion is a good start in being so critical of the church authorities, we need to go very considerably further. i would say fit of all that there should be no question but that until the church, as the deputy said, issued a clear and unequivocal stement that it will give precedence to civil law, the law of the state, on these matters, over canon law and concerns to defend its reputation and any other self-interest it may have. the papal nuncio should be expelled from this country. i would also say that the church and the state should be forced into some sort of truth and reconciliation forum where the victims of abuse by the church and other institutions in this space should be given the opportunity to confront the authority of the institutions as it -- that abused them and have their own voices heard and their own demands about what they need in terms of address articulated. i also want to say that the report, while much rightly criticisms were made of church authorities, i think the minister also needs to look at the issue of the failure of others to report complaints of abuse to the health board and the fact that in some cases, they were assessing whether priests, about whom complaints had been made, were an ongoing risk to church. they have no qualification whatsoever to assess whether leged abusers are an ongoing risk to church. that's a matter for others. guards are able to assess on a fferent criteria,hether legal positions can be taken, but when we talk about mandatory reporting, the key question is, to whom are we reporting and for what? and it's not -- reporting shouldn't just be to the guardee, though it should be to the guardee, but it also has to be the health authorities who are considering the interest of the child, not just in terms of whether we can take legal prosecution but on the best interest of the child and what measures need to be put in place to secure the best interests of the child. can i also say that much of course has been agreed and most will suggest, much of the problems would not have occurred if the children first guidelines were in place and being fully implemented by all agcies and all bodies and respected by church institutions and everybody else and therefore i very much welcome the goth's commitment to put in place and give letters of force to the chern's first guidelines. but it's clear that those guidelines cannot be implemented fully and properly unless the resources are provided to do that. that goes way beyond the commitment to 250 social workers, there are all sorts of other support resources, staffing issues that need to be addressed and frankly in the situation where the public sector recruitment embargo is lower than staff numbers where would be needed to fully resource these areas, that has to be looked at. if the children come first, we have to put the resources i i ii
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