Transcripts For CSPAN Middle 20240706

Israelhamas war. Your video will remain off, but your microphone will be unneeded. Justin, over to you. Hi, everyone. I am the executive editor of Foreign Affairs. We are joined by three first rate experts in this field. These are the kind of people that we turn to when we have questions to ask, that we can get smart answers on. And even sort of smaller, narrower issues of detail. These are the kind of people that we turn to. Im really looking forward to learning something here. This is a conflict that has raised a lot of questions and calls a lot of our assumptions into question. Im hoping they can shed some light. You have the bios. I will not read them to you and bore you with those details. Its just get started. Im going to start with you, dan. Have an article on the Foreign Affairs today which is called israels mobile strategy in gaza. I suggest everyone on this call might want to take a look at it. It is a long and detailed and interesting piece based on some research and reporting you did in israel recently. Im going to pose this question to you and also audrey and stephen. We have talked a lot in the past 18 months in a different context about a theory of victory. This is the question often posed to ukraine. What is ukraines theory of victory . When i look at what is happening in gaza the question i have is, what is israels era of the victory in this conflict . Dan so, i would say that israel has multiple theories of victory. And at times they either are not thought through or contradict each other. At the most basic level israel would want to say they want to destroy hamas. That is something most people could not their heads about, but in practice that could mean a lot of different things. Israel is trying to target hamas leadership. It is trying to crush its infrastructure and fighters in gaza. But that is an exceptionally difficult way to destroy this organization. Unless there is some way to replace its rule in gaza. As part of israels thinking they think of the shortterm question and much less on the longer term, if hamas is diminished, what is going to take its place . I will add for conversation, israel has a bunch of other goals that are outside gaza. That includes making sure that hezbollah is not able to spread. That the u. S. Relationship is in tact. That people renew their faith in the government. So, it is trying to juggle competing objectives, and at times these do not work together. Justin ok. Lets go to audrey. Same question. You can either pivot off of what dan said, or tell us something different. What do you think israels theory of a is . Audrey i think israel has a military objective, not a theory of victory. Its military objective is to end hamas, but that strategy incorporates political plans to reach an outcome. And i think those are missing. Justin so, if you had to gauge the success of what they are doing, you would look at tactical rather than strategic, and surely from a tactical point of view are they getting closer to the in the state they seek . Audrey no, i think they are not getting closer, unfortunately. He gives me Great Sadness to say that. I think they are undermining some of their broader Strategic Interests in focusing heavily on a military objective. I think that the political and end state is fuzzy and in many respects in at odds with the greater Strategic Interests of israel. By pursuing kinetic use of are undermining the longerterm interests of israel, both at home and in the region, and potentially in the world. Because i do not think that israel has a realistic pathway to ending hamas. Particularly using the kind of tactics it is using right now. Even if israel destroys this version of hamas, as dan has said, even if it is successful in destroying its military rowing military wing, these can be replaced. Less israel stops killing Palestinian Civilians another group is going to take its place and there will be a renewed cycle of violence. The political situation will not be improved. Israel could have a viable strategy to end hamas, but that is not what they are seeing right now. I would be happy to talk about what i think that strategy is. Justin you will get to it. Steven, is your theory of victory different . Steven wanted to say i am at a disadvantage here because i am not a guns and the trucks military analyst, but having looked at the situation and listening carefully to what the israelis are saying, it strikes me at that they are three of victory is to render hamas incapable. This is a twist on what dan and audrey are saying. To render hamas incapable of threatening israel in the same way a did on october 7. This includes destroying the hamas leadership. In terms of a broader political goal, i think the israelis are being coy about what it is they actually want. Either that is because they dont really know, or that they know but they dont really want to tell everybody what it is. I think the logical outcome and some of the things Senior Leadership are saying would lead one to believe that there will be an occupation of the gaza strip for some period of time in order to make sure that they are theory of victory is actually achieved, which is rendering hamas incapable of threatening israel in a variety of ways. That may undermine israels international standing. It may cause tension in the u. S. Israel relationship. But like every other state, israels primary responsibility is to ensure the security of the country. That seems to me the way in which they are going in order to do that. Justin lets talk about hamas. I have the same question when it comes to hamas. What is hamas theory of victory here . I guess you could talk about, in a sense the motivations behind the october 7 attack, but i want to focus more on, they did that, and we can talk about why they did that and whether it was whether it went the way they thought it was going to go and whether it was the outcome they intended. I am more interested now, given that now hamas has phased 10 weeks of this israeli assault. Given the reality they face now, dan, you can travel to israel and talk to generals and idf personnel. You cannot go to gaza and talk to the leaders there. As best we can tell based on their statements and what they are doing, what is hamas theory of victory at this point, if they have one . Dan part of their goal is survival, but if they survive, they will probably emerge stronger politically. And they launched a devastating attack on israel. That attack has tremendous support among many in the arab world. Especially in the palestinian community. There is a real sense that israel needs to feel the pain that palestinians feel, that their community has experienced. And that israel has simply ignored them, and hamas has put this back on the map. Have point showing increases in support for hamas, especially in the west bank. If it survives it will be politically stronger. To a degree it satisfies the goals of one of its most important patrons, in iran. So there is benefit there as well. But it has to have some recognition of the overwhelming material superiority of israel. And that is something that hamas is always trying to reconcile. The reality of israels power with hamas efforts to undermine it and weaken it. To me it has not squared that final circle. In the end hamas may emerge stronger from all of this, but it is still vulnerable to counterterrorism, if not in a hamas bulb be destroyed sense, much more on a daytoday basis hamas will be off balance, leaders will being killed, it will have to hide. That is something that to me is probably it is probably going to fail at, at least in the short term. Dan justin audrey, you wrote this book called how terrorism inns. One of the statistics i always remember from that book, and correct me if im wrong, but it is Something Like, 8 of terrorist groups, what we define as terrorist groups, actually achieve their goals. I look at hamas today and im wondering, what are the chances theyre going to wind up in that 8 . Or are they going to meet some other fate . What is your understanding of whether they are trying to survive or do Something Else . Audrey yes, so i think the figure is even a little less than that. The figure is about achieving their strategic goals, which is for hamas, presumably it is about having a homeland for the Palestinian People, broadly and strategically. But i think its theory of victory right now in this particular part of their struggle is all about mobilizing Popular Support for itself and destroying israel, as it is stated in their charter. It has done so in a way that terrorist groups always do, and that is by provoking israel to overreact and undermine itself. I agree with you, dan that they are fazed by a much more militarily strong foe. But they are doing is using israels own strength against israel. They have also taken another classic terrorist tactic, which is to polarize populations both in israel, there were already pretty polarized, now it is worse, but also regionally and globally. Mobley is the most worrisome aspect of the polarization that has in some respects in successful with respect to hamas tactics. Anyway, it is definitely provoked israel to use overwhelming force, military force, in ways that are hurting it. And camino, hamas has maneuvered in some respects, israel into lashing out with brutal force in a way that undermines its legitimacy in terms of the perceptions of many members of the audience watching. This is really quite alarming. If you think about the constituencies that hamas was trying to reach, initially iran, hezbollah, its own members, and now an International Community appalled by the violence against the Palestinian People. It is very worrisome, and i hope that israel can engage in a much broader Strategic Perspective that includes a more clear understanding of what the political and should be with respect to hamas. Celeste undermine that strategy. Justin steven, does hamas have a theory of victory . Steven i think staying alive is part of their theory of victory. You know, it is important to record recognized that a critical component of palestinian identity. It is steadfastness and resistance. In particular for hamas and its cadres it is resistance. As long as there is hamas and they are resisting and they have the capability to fire at israel or engage israeli troops, against the mighty idf, they are resisting, and they remain and therefore it is a victory. It does also have the important effect and this is something that audrey spoke to which is to suck the israelis into an openended conflict within the gaza strip. Hamas, gall islamist groups, have a much longer timeline than many of us have for many about suspect they do. This is from their perspective an opening shot, or another round in a longterm struggle that is aimed at undermining israel by sucking it in, polarizing israeli society. Israeli society is not polarized at the moment. There has been a rally around the flag. They may hate Prime Minister netanyahu, but there is a rally around the flag. Ultimately over time an openended conflict is likely to polarize israeli society. Weaken its economy, demoralize its leadership, and undermine the trust of its people and leadership. Those are longerterm strategic goals toward the ultimate goal, which is the liberation of all of palestine, not gaza and west bank, but gaza, the west bank, and sovereign israel. I think it would be a victory. Look, what hamas did on october 7 is something no arab force has been able to do since 1948. So, they have gone a long way toward securing that victory. As much firepower as the israelis can bring to bear, as long as there is one hamas terrorist left firing back at them it constitutes some semblance of a victory. Justin im interested in this question of polarization. Dan, you were in israel recently. What was your sense of that . Im curious, my impression, as steven has said that, you know, there has been a kind of unity of a polity that had been previously very polarized around judicial reforms, and if anything it seems to me there has been unity around the repudiation of netanyahu. That everybody seems to dislike netanyahu or distrust netanyahu at this point. What was your sense of that . The followup question, how, if we can assume at some point that will end, what would be likely at this point to erode that sense of solidarity . Is it reservists returning from service . What are the factors . What are the things we should be looking for to start saying, maybe this is going to crack . Dan my impression was that there is tremendous unity. An outpouring of patriotism. You had huge adherence to reservist call ups, lots of volunteers, lots of Society Action that had been directed at the government now directed at supporting troops and the displaced. But it is a country that really has raw wounds. In these wounds are painful, and there is an expectation that senior military and intelligence officials will resign as soon as the first round is done. They have announced a bowl, military and intelligence leaders. Weber, political leaders have not. And if netanyahu and perhaps some others do not resign there will be mass demonstrations. The polarization you mentioned that had occurred before october 7, that will return with a sense of anger at netanyahu. An important caveat is the divisions that cause that polarization about the direction israel should go in. Differences between jews and arabs and the secular have not gone away. And now you have this horrible failure, and there will be, i think, one thing that could set this off is distance that the government is playing politics with the response rather than doing what is best for israel. That latter concept sounds good, but is subject to interpretation, but we are seeing this already with netanyahu. Trying to embrace biden, but also criticizing the Biden Administration variety of ways. We are seeing it with regard to how israel has described palestinians, where biden is trying to say, im the one who is netanyahu is the one saying, im the one who saved you from oslo. I think that could further polarize israel and make things even worse six months from now. But this is an opportunity of country to come together. Maybe that will happen. Justin im struck when i read commentary, even commentary on Foreign Affairs and the American Media more broadly, that there is these two ideas that kind of crop up constantly when we talk about the day after. That everybody understands that there is this need to figure out, well, what is going to come next in gaza . Steven, you had said maybe the israelis have some idea about this and they are just not saying what it is. Maybe they dont know. But there seems to be this constant suggestion of two things, that is, one of the reformed Palestinian Authority somehow ruling or playing a role in ruling gaza wants hamas has been eliminated or camino, destroyed. And the other is that there needs to be some kind of revitalization of the two state solution as a longterm goal, partially because that might actually solve the problem, but also see this argument that without that you will not get any buyin from arab states who will have to play some role in gaza. So you have to Pay Lip Service to that goal. Im struck by this, because it seems to me that in israel, and even amongst palestinians there just seems to be absolutely no interest in either of these things. I really would love to hear you are champing at the bit, so im going to go to you. Im just, i have rarely seen such a wide delta in all of the decades of this conflict and american involvement in it. What is going on and why is there this disconnect . Maybe you can tell me what you think. Out of me to be laughing. It is because there is this extraordinary disconnect i have touched on. Any number of times in my recent writings at Foreign Policy. Sorry, justin. You know, it is extraordinary, because it seems that american officials and others are seizing on the revitalization of the Palestinian Authority because they are bereft of any other ideas. I dont blame them, but certainly reviving the Palestinian Authority and the two state solution have got to be two Foreign Policy unicorns for the United States. In particular when it comes to reviving the Palestinian Authority when were talking about the timeframe the Biden Administration or its successor would be working with it seems to me an important it is important to understand that this is a quasistate that is compromised by extraordinary corruption, dysfunction, and a total lack of legitimacy. It was an extraordinary piece in the New York Times today by a palestinian political activist which underlined each one of these things. So, it would take a long, long time in order to revitalize the Palestinian Authority. I can tell you having just traveled in the gulf, the gulf countries are willing to play ball, but they are very, very wary of pouring money into the Palestinian Authority, knowing that it is not going to go to good use. So, what it would take, i think, is mixed mismatched the amount of time anybody is working with. And the idea that Mahmoud Abbas and the people around him are willing to give up our is also something that is quite open to question. I know the palestinians are missing in this discussion, who are essentially saying what we need if we are going to rescue the Palestinian Authority is to bring hamas into it. Ring hamas into the plo. In that way we can have a Broad Coalition of palestinians confronting this problem. Of course, this is a nonstarter for the israelis, and there have been any number of attempts at reconciliation between fatah and hamas over many years that has never worked. As far as the two state solution goes, dan was just in israel. I think it should be clear to everybody and dan can attest because he was on the ground that netanyahu has rejected it. Benny gantz has been coy at best as at a. Israel has lurched to the right. This probably the least propitious moment to speak to israelis about the two state solution. So, it boggles the mind that we can that we are talking about a two state solution rather than some sort of interim steps. Interim steps are, that is what we had during the oslo period, and that led to nothing as well. But at least it stabilize the situation. He came to this two state solution the palestinians cannot satisfy the israel demand for peace and that is realities the israelis cannot satisfy the palestinian demand for peace. He rejects the idea of palestinian return. Palestinians need a capital in jerusalem, need a fully sovereign state, and need, at least symbolically, the return of refugees from 1948. Neither of them can satisfy each others demands. What you have his continuing stalemate, even after this horrible situation. There is this sense that crisis comes diplomatic opportunity. Be in 1973. But with the movement of these populations against this idea, at least in particular the israelis, where the asymmetry of power lies, where the power lies in this asymmetric relationship, it seems to me that the administration dont have any other words to mouthed otherwise. Justin do you want to weigh in on that . Audrey yes. I think it is a pipe dream. Two state solution. For all of the reasons that stevens had, but also that the territory that the palestinian state would be on has been encroached upon by the settlers, so where exactly would the state be . That is a longterm process. That has been a very strategic process on the part of the israeli government. And so there netanyahu government is not going to work against its own right wing support. Which is very heavily represented among the settlers. So, there are three big problems. The first is that there is a lack of leadership among the palestinians. We dont know whether states would be. The second is that israelis are too far to the right and that is unlikely to change, even after netanyahu. Finally, the United States has lost influence and is not going to be bringing parties together like it has in the past. So, i just think that things could change on any of those three dimensions. Im a bit more of an optimist and you are, steven, but i agree that right now a two state solution is not viable. Justin dan, why dont you take a crack at this . Dan sure. I will briefly share their pessimism, especially in the short term. There is one thing israeli jews agree on. That is, palestinians cannot be trusted to make peace. Just to add one bitter note, on october 7 many of the particular cupboards to bouts ku bbutzs that were attacked that palestinians should be treated as human beings with their own rights, those are the ones who were victimized. So on the left there is a sense of outrage and anger against hamas, and more broadly against palestinians. Let alone on the right, have been moving in this direction for decades, really, against it. There is no hope in the shortterm. My longterm hope is, i dont see another answer. And so, i dont know the alternative is other than continued conflict, which may endure for decades or centuries. But in the end if we are talking about moving beyond conflict we have to get to Something Like a palestinian state with israel having security to it. And that is optimistic and even naive, but perhaps something to talk about for the longterm. Justin merry christmas, everyone, with this message of peace, joy, and hope. Lets turn things over to some of our participants. I know we have some highly knowledgeable folks who are on the line and going to have interesting questions of their own. To ask a question please click on the raise hand icon. When you are called on to speak please proceed with your name, affiliation, and question. Your video will remain off, but your microphone will be on muted. We will take our first question from barbara. High there. I want to second a lot of what audrey said. And ask, if you have to predict the next few weeks, or even longer than that, would you imagine the israelis will scale back a little bit to try to get the scenes of carnage off the front pages, that they will remain in what essentially amounts to a renewed occupation of gaza . In which case, we are looking at, i keep thinking of South Lebanon and how, you know, israel had soldiers in South Lebanon and proxies for years and years and finally withdrew because of the casualty tolls and hostage, which continue. Audrey can i take that . Justin yeah, go ahead. Audrey hi. I agree that there is going to be enough pressure on israel that i think the answer to your question is i think there is going to be a reduction in heavy kinetic military force used in gaza sometime within the next three weeks, i would say. That looks like what is coming out from press accounts, and certainly what lincoln is pressuring for. You know, i think it is very sad. If you look at the history of terrorism, and particularly states that have used repression, you dont want to think about gaza looking like grozny. It is not the first time that a state has responded in this overwhelming way, so not saying that i have deep sympathy for israel. But there are lots of more effective ways they could respond. And that would be more successful in reducing the threat israeli citizens. You know, if israel were trying to reach out to some of the folks that support hamas, trying to undermine hamas rather than draw a lot of opprobrium against themselves in the long run, and even the short run, that would be a better approach. Even Antony Blinken in his press conference, i guess it was yesterday, was saying, why not focus on what hamas is doing rather than just israel . On what hamas must do to end the suffering of palestinians . I could not agree more, but unfortunately what is happening right now is because of what it because of what israel is doing they are drawing all of the air and attention, and taking it away from undermining hamas. Hamas is supposed to be representing Palestinian Civilians. What has hamas done in order to support them . That is where israel should be trying to develop its strategy, to look at the hypocrisy of hamas, and the fact that they have had resources to do better by their people and instead of using such overwhelming force and presenting and preventing humanitarian aid, or insufficient aid, to the Palestinian People, all of these things are drawing the spotlight on israels response. Justin lets take another question. Our next question is from carrie. Hi. Im a reporter with npr. I have a question about military strategy of israel, and if you are talking with former, current strategists. Do they tell you that their main target is the infrastructure im talking military, not political. Is the tunnels, that is their main target, so there is no way they could get to the tunnels unless they did this math of displacement and math of bombings . Is that the strategy, though terribly . And if you are hearing from them, is this something they have been wanting to do . Like, they could not get rid of the tunnels in 2014, so now they see a window . I dont know. I was hoping to get a little more military strategy and what you are hearing, what you are thinking. They have this one time window and this is the only time you can get these tunnels, what they have just done to gaza city, it seems like they leveled it. If you saw the briefing yesterday about palestine square, they just leveled it, and in the briefing we got yesterday they said they are going to render these tunnels once and for all worthless, so is that something they could not do unless they got the whole population out . What are you hearing . Justin dan, im going to send that to you. You addressed this to a certain degree. He did advertise this as about Israeli Military strategy. Carrie, i appreciate the question. Dan i will say yes, but with a lot more. So, israel is trying to destroy hamas in the sense of, go after its military power. That is embodied in its commanders. And it is embodied in its military infrastructure. In some of that includes ammunition caches. Some of it is observation points. Some of it is fortified strong points. But a lot of it is this massive Tunnel Network. Before the invasion the Tunnel Network was roughly the size of the london underground. Israeli military forces are saying they are surprised at the scope and scale of the Tunnel Networks, even the even though they knew it was tremendous before this. Yes, they want to take it out, but israel actually did not have a gaza invasion plan. Perhaps im too used to the u. S. Military, which has just in case we need to go into canada, here is the plan we have on the shelf, right . We take planning to, i think a happy extreme, but to an extreme. I would think israel would have a plan as a contingency, but they really didnt have that. They had plans to kind of go after border efforts, but not the massive one. They would say the destructiveness is necessary. Because hamas has colocated its military and civilian assets. So if youre going to go after an ammunition cash is going to be near a mosque or school. That if youre going to go after fighters they are going to be mixed in with the civilian population. Gaza is incredibly densely populated so it is hard to avoid destructive operations whenever youre fighting in a city. I will add, is real historically, like other militaries, has a tradeoff between military necessity and the casualties for civilians. Israel clearly has changed the ratios of that, it is far more willing to inflict civilian casualties that it was in previous operations. So, before there might be uncertainty. There might be, well there are a couple of civilians. Now there is much more wantonly destructive. I will point out the case of hostages. No number of hostages have been killed by Israeli Military forces. Probably more than we know. In the past that would have been a tremendous cause for caution on Israeli Military operations. They are going much more aggressively than ever before. They have lost a fair number of people. Over 100 in these operations, which is high for israel. But it is lower than one might expect, even the intensity of urban warfare and the intensity of urban operations. I think there is a lot that explains the destructiveness. Some of which is very different rules of engagement compared with past operations. Justin can i followup . How long do you think israel can sustain this current kind of operation . What it is doing now, cannot just carry on forever or is there some kind of between the reserves and rotations and their stockpiles, how long could this go on if they wanted to . Dan this is a huge question for israelis. In terms of ammunition, some things are running out. There are a few items that they cannot sustain forever. Reserves, you know, 40 days of reservists is a very big deal in israel. These reservists have been fighting for over 70. It is not that some are occupying other positions, but many are involved in gaza. So there is a huge Israeli Military operation. That will the scale of that will diminish as Israeli Operations start to wind down, but israelis say, we need another six months. I agree with audrey. I think that True International pressure, meaning the United States especially, that they will start to draw things down. We will start to see a shift toward raids and special operations forces, which we are already seeing in the southern part of gaza compared to the northern part of gaza. At present there is tremendous willingness on israelis to sacrifice. One thing we are seeing is when people lose a child in israel, they are talking about the parents are talking about the necessity of an operation. That is in contrast to the past. So, there is a sense that this is a necessary war. The political will is there in the short term, but i do think u. S. Patients in particular wearing thin, and the u. S. Is going to go from gentle advice to point to criticism, which we have already seen we are not going to be providing munitions or diplomatic support for highintensity operations. But i think the u. S. Will continue to support lower intensity, more targeted operations. Steven i just want to direct carry to a rather extraordinary article in the times of israel yesterday which was translated from the hebrew site. It was an interview with the israeli reserves officer who also happens to be an architect, who was explaining the importance of the tunnels, how they work, and how israels military strategy is either fit or not fit to deal with the tunnel. One of the things he did say was that the intensive bombing was an effort to sort of crack open these tunnels. That when the stems of the tunnels come out in buildings the safest way for the idf and their personnel to get to them is by bringing those buildings down, and that was one of the explanations. But it was a very interesting article. Something, again, as not a military analyst, i thought it was a tremendous amount of insight into that part of the Israeli Military operations. Dan im going to take a look at that. I had not seen that. Our next question is from mark goldberg. High, everyone. Hi, everyone. About an hour ago the World Food Program released the results of a Technical Assessment of Food Security in gaza and found there to be faminelike conditions and protected a more widespread famine in the not so distant future. To the best you can deduce, what is the Strategic Logic on the israeli side that is driving them to foment such a massive humanitarian crisis, potentially even to include famine . If i can maybe sneak in a second related question, Antonio Guterres last week suggested that there may be a mass displacement from gaza to sinai as conditions deteriorate along southern gaza, well past a breaking point. Do you see that as a potential outcome . Justin anyone want to take a crack at this . Steven let me take particularly the last part of it, particularly given my vocation looking at egypt. The egyptians have been forthright that theyre going to prevent the mass displacement of palestinians. There is increasing pressure on them, given there are some of the people who are now basically on the doorstep in rafah, and they are confronting a humanitarian situation. It is an extraordinarily delicate moment, because the egyptians have hinted that the peace treaty would be in jeopardy if the israelis intentionally pushed hundreds of thousands of palestinians into the sinai. Keep in mind that the egyptians already have libyan refugees, sudanese refugees, and it is also a country that is essentially broken. Broke. This is an extraordinarily ask since that. It is not unprecedented for a whole to be blown in the walls, that the egyptians have built egypt has been a full partner in israels blockade of the gaza strip, and the egyptians see the displacement has a security threat, given the fact that they believe large numbers of fighters will find refuge in the sinai peninsula, and the egyptians are finding their own extremists in the northern sinai, a conflict that has gone forgotten by many people. In terms of mass starvation as a weapon i know and number of ngos have said the israelis are intentionally doing that. I since i dont work on that issue i cannot really qualify it, but what seems to me is that the massive israeli onslaught is in part intended to do two other things in addition to destroying hamas. One is to demonstrate to the leadership in hezbollah and the leadership of iran what israels military can do and what future they would confront if they were to attack israel and were the war to widen. I think there is a certain intentionality to the kind of leveling of places. It is also intended and whether this works or not remains an open question it is intended to drive a wedge between the Palestinian People and hamas. And we are starting to as that buckles, and you are starting to see some buckling of hamas, you are starting to see people speak more freely about what hamas has brought down upon them. The poll numbers still demonstrate solid support for hamas, for what it did. But you are starting to see people questioning what hamas has done, especially since it has absconded with humanitarian relief intended for all of these poor people. Look, they have been doing this for years and years. How do you think we got these tunnels . Put in this moment, in this incredibly dangerous moment and fraught moment for all of the civilians the fact that hamas has absconded with humanitarian aid, and combined with the israeli onslaught, is intended on the part of israeli leadership, unsaid, to drive that wedge between hamas and the Palestinian People. Justin audrey, you had your hand up as well. Audrey just a brief edition. I do not believe that this is part of an israeli strategy. Yes, it might be a way to drive a wedge between the Palestinian People and hamas, but im afraid the opposite is happening, because there is this very Large International awareness of the horrible situation for the Palestinian People, and that is being blamed on israel. Even as hamas takes much of the food. Exactly as you said, steven. Im very fearful that this is undermining what could be a much more effective israeli strategy. I really do worry about this broader sense of mobilization. I think that the fact there is a new humanitarian maritime corridor, apparently potentially coming in via cyprus. I read that right before i dont know how much to credit that, but i read that in the press myself right before we went on this call. Lets hope, but i think that the israelis are not being strategic, and i do not believe they have any kind of a strategy to starve out anybody. I think they are just fearful of supplies that might reach hamas via the border with egypt. And i think it is a very bad policy. Justin lets take a next question. Our next question is from or i. Thanks for calling on me. I am addressing audrey. First, regarding the two state solution, it is not a pipe dream. The fact that it is not attainable or viable in the short run does not mean it is unobtainable in the long run. But that is a conversation we can have some other time. Audrey i agree with you on that. I said it was a pipedream dream in the short run. Steven im the one who thinks it is not possible. Want to ask audrey regarding the topic of your article, which is a military strategy of hamas. There is a lot that is interesting there. My question was whether you see anything other than the tunnels that is unique about hamas strategy, tactics. What do you think is new here . If you dont see anything new, what do you think they are doing well from their perspective, postoctober 7 . Take. Audrey i see this as an evolution of the strategic developments we are seeing with excessively new technologies, particularly things like drones. We have seen it in ukraine, but hamas was very creative in how they used both lowtech sorts of weapons, everything from an ak47 to a bulldozer, to small drones, took part copters where they could drop grenades down, automatic machine guns. They were effective at using that low altitude attack and above all else there were extremely effective at coordinating their attacks. These were not a swarm, because there were not autonomous capabilities that were communicating with each other, but they had so well planned the attack that surprise was the biggest technological advantage, and they used accessible technologies, some of them built into gaza, but also many technologicallyadvised by hezbollah and iran. They used all of these capabilities in extremely effective ways that you would not have expected from a terrorist group. So, it was a surprise. Was also accessible technologies and oldfashioned types of technologies, including the tunnels. Justin thanks for that. Lets take another question. Our next question is from brett. Hi, this is brett from nasdaq. Im wondering if you feel that whether intentionally or by a fact this will have the it will change the status quo in terms of the viability of a palestinian state if one were to be proposed, in that in gaza the destruction is so widespread the population has been displaced, the infrastructure has been destroyed, that there is nothing there for anyone to go back to that could be called a state without really building one up again almost from scratch. And that communal, in doing so it kind of diminishes the argument for a state, at least maybe in the israeli mind, the semi that the settlements in the west bank have diminished the area that, you know, would be available for palestinian state . Justin dan or steven, do you want to take that . Dan a few words. Yes, this is devastating, and gaza was in rough condition before this in terms of camino, basic Economic Indicators like unemployment. And now it is in ruins. And billions of dollars of investment. We think about the longerterm question, you know, palestinian workers in israel, there were 20 thousand from gaza and about 150,000 from the west bank. Some of those 20,000 provided intelligence to hamas. On very specific details, on various targets. There are israelis told me some of them were involved in atrocities as well. The idea that israel what a year from now say, we will bring workers back because we want to help the palestinian economy, that is going to be a nonstarter. Lot of Economic Activity in the future is also going to be diminished. Yes, this makes it harder for, really any kind of palestinian daily life, let alone a successful state. And so, this will require a lot of International Aid, but i want to go back to points made earlier, which is International Aid is not countries opening up their wallets and saying, you know, we will give to whatever. Theyre going to have their own political desires. Changes in the palestinian structure. Theyre going to want to see gestures by israel. The reconstruction part of this is a huge task in a politically difficult one as well. Steven let me just add a couple of things. Dan, perceptively captured the israeli attitude and the lack of Economic Opportunity for palestinians in israel. I think the israeli right has a more compelling argument now than it did when, for example, ariel sharon accomplished the israeli withdrawal in 2005. At the time they said this was not going to bring security. It has not brought them security. The israeli right is going to say we are not going to make the same mistakes over and over again. Therefore we are not going to see large numbers of palestinian workers within israel. Israel is not going to be forthcoming when it comes to the economy and the gaza strip. As far as International Aid goes, in theory this sounds like a good idea, but who is going to administer, who is going to the reconstruction of the gaza strip . In addition, many countries, the saudis for example, have a long history of promising Copious Amounts of aid to the palestinians and a much shorter history of delivering it. For the reasons outlined earlier. That there is very little trust in palestinian leadership and palestinian institutions to deliver on promises of reconstruction and changes to the palestinian institutions. I think that both in the gaza strip, as well as the west bank, this catastrophe has undermined the economy, as well as undermined any prospect for a palestinian state. Its going to take a generation at best to rebuild the gaza strip. You now have a generation of israelis who are opposed to the idea of accommodation with the palestinians in any way. Audrey i would only add one last thing, which is one of the scenarios that our friends who still believe in a two state solution put forth is that there might be aid that comes through moderate arab countries, but the fact that qatar was sending so much money to hamas, all of these years, and i think the New York Times did a wonderful set of stories on this, the amount of money flowing into gaza and then not actually being used to help the Palestinian People, i think that is going to make it less likely that moderate arab regimes are going to want to rebuild. Dan i want to note, that was with israeli acquiescence. A short of sort a shortterm move on netanyahus part. Lets take another question. Our next question oh, i think we just lost. We had susan. Sorry about that. Looks like we just lost them. Justin is there another one after that . That was our last one. She is back. Disappeared again. That was our last one. Justin i think we can probably wrap it up. I think we have gotten a lot of got a lot to chew on. I always like to leave these sessions with a couple of questions i want to think about more, and i do in this case. I just want to thank dan and audrey and steven. Thank you so much for bringing your expertise to bear on this and for following it carefully and writing so clearly and persuasively for us and other places. It is really appreciated. I hope everybody gets a bit of a respite from the gloom and doom. We are very lucky to be far away from it. And as the new year comes, i just want to put in two cents for remembering just how difficult this is for people who are closer to it. We tend to talk about these things at a very high level of abstraction. There are human beings suffering on all sides of the of this conflict, and i would like to ask people to spare a thought for them as we head into the new year. Thank you all, and things to everyone who participated. Thank you. Reports today that former new york city mayor and a trump attorney Rudy Giuliani declared bankruptcy following a 148 million judgment against him in a case involving orgia election workers. Mr. Giulianis chapter 11 petition lists between 1 million and 10 million in assets and between one hundred Million Dollars and 500 Million Dollars in liabilities. A spokesperson for the former mayor responded, saying the bankruptcy filing should come as no surprise. No person could reasonably mr. Giuliani could pay such an amount. You could read more at the hill. Com weeknights at 9 00 eastern, cspans encore presentation of our series books that shaped america. Cspan partnered with the library of congress, which examined key pieces of literature that have had an impact on our country. Tonight we will feature the life of frederick douglass. It describes his childhood, his time as a slave, and his escape north. Our guest is historian edna medford. Watch cspans encore presentation of extent shaped america or go to cspan. Com to learn more about the books in each feature. Today watch cspans 2024 campaign trail, a weekly round up of cspans campaign coverage, providing a onestop shop. This, along with firsthand accounts from political reporters, updated poll numbers, fundraising data, and campaign ads. Watch cspans 2024 campaign trail. Today at 7 00 eastern on cspan, online at cspan. Org, or download as a podcast on cspan now, our free mobile app, or where ever you get your podcasts. Cspan. Your unfiltered view of politics. Cspan is your unfiltered view of government. We are funded by these Television Companies and more, including cox. This syndrome is extremely rare. But friends dont have to be. This is jill, and you are connected. You are not alone. Cox supports cspan as a public service, giving you a front row seat to democracy. The Supreme Court heardral arguments in in a case inlving the taxation of earnings involving americans from a foreign cpany. The case focuses on an indiabased company, with more than half of its ownship held by americans. It w brought forward by a plaintiff who objected to a clause in a 2017 change in tax law that would have wired a repatriation tax. This is about two. The court squarely held us much just a few years foowg adoption of the amendment. The the presidt kes easy work of the case. It is undisputed the petiors realize nothing from their stock investment. They were taxed not because they had income but becse in 2017 they happened to own sharein corporation. This is a taxn e ownership of property. Dispensing with the need for realization, the framers regarded this as the essential chec on the power of congress to taxrorty. The government cannot identify a single thing congress could not tax its income under its position realization is unnecessary. Without realization there is no limiting principle. Accepting th government position on income would make a cap hash of the current law. Gateway defition of gross income asserts congresses taxing por der the 16th amendment roh reaching all income from whatever srcderived. If the government possession position in this case is right the current law already requires taxpayers to pay on the valuation of bother assets, corporate earnings, any stocks theywnand any paperains from contracts and loans. Going back to 1913 that is how it has worked. The reason the law does not work that way is obvious. Unrealized gains are not iom the only way to make sense of the income tax as it has existed for a century is to stick with the original meaning of the 16th amendment. The court should reairthere is no income without realization prei wco the courts questions. When you say realizationo you have a definition or explanation as to what it is . How is it different from, say, attribution . Like thank you justice tma realization in the main will be receipts. In other situations it will be other types of enjoent of economic gain such as the taxpayer can put that ge gain it to his or her uses and benefits