Transcripts For CSPAN Federal 20240705

Competition. Ariza senator Kyrsten Sinema chairs the senate commerce, science, and transportation subcommieeearing. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] the subcommittee is now in der. Welcome everyone to a hearing on the u. S. Senate space and science subcommittee. Thank you to each of our witnesses for the participation today. Thanks to her subcommittee rankg member smith for worng with me on these issues and future capital and Ranking Member cz for their collaboratio a thriving commercial space instry is eentialor continued American Leadership o space innovation which in turn advances medical Economic National Security and scientific interes. The new space economy presents exciting opportunities where visiting living and working space can become reality. I am proud americas leading these global efforts to save advanced tecology that enables Space Exploration including human spaceflight. Im als proud to see my home state of arizona lding the way in commercial space. Ariza is a shining example of how to build meaningful careers and innovions in the new space economy thanks to publicprivate partnerships at Arizona State university, and university of arizona, as well as investment from Innovative Companies to produce space vehicles and Quebec Research across the state. To keep america on top we must foster annvironment that enables and encourages innovation without sacrificing safety. This will require congress to streamline authorization processes, and able to work, and workable safety framework for in Space Operations and clearly defined proper responsibility for different government agencies. In october the subcommittee heard from leading industry representatives and experts o the current Regulatory Environment and how they could be improved. Witnesses all emphasized the need to address Mission Authorization, the learning period and other pressing matters while looki ahead to a future with unknown capability. Its time for action is now. Competitor nations including adversarie like russia a china are making major space investment. Its imperative the u. S. Framework eablish the norms for a workable International Business cmate, promotes our nation interests and serves as a model for oers to follow. Commercial spa compaes are working right now to provide orbital and satellite services, mitigate orbital debris, manufacture in space, deliver space tourism,nd so much more. The question of howegulation of these new space activities wi work often referred to as mission authozation remains unclear, even as businesses in nasa press for a clearnd efficient authorization framework. The whi houseational Space Council released dra legislation in november to extend esting responsibilities of t department of transptationommerce while dividing Mission Authorization authority betweenhem. I ameartened the administraon working on this critic issue but the proposal contained numerous ambiguities, ne undefined terms, and grants of openended authority. Unfortunely the council declined to attend todays hearing and that youruestions on the proposal, but hope to hear from them soon a gain for the clarity in future discussis. One thing that is clears we caot simply continue with the status quo the results and licensing delays,egulatory certainty, and inefficient uses of taxpayerollars and private resources. The proper Regulatory Framework will both remove unnecessary burdens and provide the necessary certainty for the space industr to prosper safely now and into the future. For this to hpen we must keep mission authorizati fully distinct from missionuccess. The government to job is to allow innovation, investment and eams to flourish while ensuring safety. We need a framework that relies on our greatest asset, our people, to push both industry an the cntry forward. To succeed we will need aobust workfoe equipped to support the commercial space ecosystem. I a passiate about making sure america and arizonans have rewarding caree to choose from whe gduating either from certificate programs, vocational school,ut with advanced degrees. Couraging publicprivate partnerships and levering the existing expertise of entities like nasa would bessential to ensure we have the engineers, technical experts, and Skilled Workforce to win the next entry in space. As i sit and october, Congress Must take the same enterprising, pioneering approach to commercial space thatas served us so wl in earlier generations. I believe this requis a flexible Regulatory Environment able to attack the issues of day headon without compromising adaptability to the issues ofomorrow. Thank you. I will now turn to Ranking Member schmitt for his Opening Statement. Thank you, madam chair, and thanks for working so diligently with m on these important issues. Thank you to our witnesses for joining us here today. While we may not agree on everything thats discussed her today, your agencys have been an will continue to be invaluable to our space efforts. As itated before missouri has blazed a trail in our nations path of exploration. St. Charles, missouri, marked the beginning of lewis and clark pedition to elorehe nations he nations expansion to the west. In marshall producing edwin hubble who fathered our nions expiration distance galaxies. Today mr. Is home to over 54 companies whoupply our nations civil and commercia Space Missions. Space has been the ufying force for our nation dating back in space race with russia in the 1950s and 60s. Our nation rallied toeet the challenge and beating russia to the culminating inhe armstrongs famous words one sml step for m, one giant leap for mankind. Today, americas engage in a new 21st Century Space race, one of whichome one in which we n compete with china. Once aga face the challenge of landing on the lunar surface before china has the chance to plan its fg on the moon, claiming it is their domain. Fortunately, america hashe pieces in place from iustry perspective to win this important challeng however, regulatory ambiguity and uncertainty aretanding in way from truly unleaing our nations commercialerospa industry capabilities. In the intsifying space race with chi, retaining u. S. Leadership is imperative not just for economic and security interest but to ensure all nations follow appropriate rules andorms in space. As we contemplate new fmework for space regulation are policies must balance enabling the deployment of new techlogies for commercial operations while ensuring safety, whileustaining our role as the preeminent leader in space. Currently there are four key agencies regicides authority or juriiction over spa, the fcc, the department of transportation federal aviation adminiration office of commercial space transportation, i was just going to get acronyms. Nasa, and an mss. Ple a small role but for whatever reason it i in our nations space endeavors. As tays, at todays hearing were examining the re of some of these agencies resnsible for whether or not the roles need to be refocused or changed to meet the demands of our nations rapidly evolvg commercialpace industry. Ive already helped lead those efforts along with senator sinema and others are innocent and senator hickenlooper who was here with the launch Communications Act whi streamline the secs commercial launch and reentry spectrum licensing process to provide a more certain and timely licensing process to keep pace with the large and reentry demands at the commercial, with the commercial spa industry. That billas passed the senate look forwardo working with the house get it signed into la rently in attempt to address current regulatory uncertainty and confusion as reles to our federal policiesor new and novel in space activity kwn as Mission Authorization, Biden Administration released a proposal that would divide responsibilities between the department of transportation and commerce. Despite beinget with opposition, the white house and the statement said in the proposal ensures our gernment will build aegulaty environment that supports mmercial expansion to benefit all americans. I willake mention that the national Space Council, Space Council, which offered the administrations proposal was invited to todays hearing and is noticeably absent. Its dappointing theyre not here to answer some questns. Madam chair, it is importa that are industry ofegulatory clarity and certainty as w focus our efforts he in this committee on a commercial space bill. As we embark on this new frontierf Space Exploration, the stakes are profound. We mustake the hard decisions which may includereatin new authorities for some agencies and reforming or limitny authorities or others. Just as our nation did, just as a nation did this but thick and so this cast a dark shadow upon thearth and making 5 we must make thisoment. I stand ready to work with you and to bring forrd balance of light, to bring forward balance light touch policy that empower not hindermerican ingenuity andnnovatn, and get the government out of the way m eager to hear from her witness today to assist this committee in shaping the policy that retains americas primacy in space. I yield back. Thank you,enator schmitt. Now ill introduce our witnesses for today to get our first witness is nasa deputy administrator pam melroy. Ms. Melroy has launched a trip log more than 924 hours in space, is one of only two women to have Committee Space shuttle and flew more than 6000 hours during her air force service. Shes also served in leadership roles at lockheed martin, the federal Aviation Administration and the defse advanced research projects. Deputy administrator melroy you are recognized for your Opening Statement. Thank you, joe cantwell, chair sinema, rking member crs and Ranking Member schmitt, im extremelyleased to be here and have the opportunity to appear today on what is a critically important topic. This is a really exciting time for space. Theres a lot going on, spatial in commercial space which i playing an increasingly Important Role in nasasn aging after amazing Medicine Mission for meaningful scientificnvestigations throughout the universe. Are working to return humans tohe moon under the artemis prram, and then pressing rward for the first humans on mars. We are unlocking the secrets of the universe with the james webb space telescope, and our vision for nasa is that we take on the hardt and most complex challengeshat no one else can do. At the same time where industry is ready we are increasingly transitioning to commercially provided serviceshere it makes sense. Let me give you aew exales. When nasa decidedo retire the Space Shuttle we needed a new way to transport astronaut and cargo, including critical sides, to the interNational Space station. And working with congress, the agency funded and ahorize the development of new commercial space launch capabilities and spacecraft capable of caring humans under this model, massachusetts and onef our commercial providers, spacex, we together have launched eight crews to the spac station from american soil. And spacex has launched three ditional private human spaceflight missions opening the door to a new private commercial huma spaceflight market. And all of these launches are commercially licend byur colleagues at the faa. As nasa looks to the fure,e plan to build un the success of commercial crewnd cargo and leverage the tremendous proess of the commercial space industry. We are verxcited. We expect the first two robotic commercial lunar landers under nas commercial lunar payload seices to launch in january delivering medical science and Technology Payloads to the lunar surface. Nasa is just one of many customers for these commercial Lunar Landings. And by the end of theecade commercial space stations will be on orbit hosting both nasa astronauts and other private activities. As nasa acquires more of these commercial spa services to accomplish our mission, the agencies success isnextricably linked to the success of a mmercial space industry. And we did this by design. Did it by intent. Over the years nas has strategically fostered the growth of t commercial space industry which had increased coetition, ler cos a accelerated innovation in t maet. Our commercial space industry is e envy of the world. However, this innovation does raise important questions about who will authorize and supervise commercial space activities. We have to balance that amazing innovation and Economic Growth with protecting t space environment for coexisting users like nasa, government activities, and for future use. Foreign policy considerations and, of course, National Security concerns. So as nas isncreasingly a customer of cmercial servis, we reallyeed greater clarity regaing w is rponsib for authorizing and servisi commerci space activity. This clarity is vital for our missionuccess ths why nasa is pleased tha the national Space Council recent put forth a recommendation to congress to make a logical extension of the authorities t the department of commerce and transportation to better enable the authorition and continuing supervision of commercial sce activities. Important things such as orbal debris mitigation, spacebased manufacturing, commercial human spaceflight, and theecover and use of spaceesources. This proposal gives industry a clear path to provi on Orbit Services toasa and other customers while protectin against interference with the governments own missions and interest while ensuring also that space continues to be a safe place for all operators. The intent of thisupervision is not to stifle or slow down industry, but rather to work with industry and advancing commercial space. The space Industry Needs a clear predictable timely and flexible process to initiate nongovernmental space activities safely and successfully. I look forward to the opportunity to continue to discuss this important and exciting topic and answer any of your questions. Great here thank you so much. Our second witness is kelvin coleman, the federal Aviation Administration associate administrator for commercial space transportation. Mr. Coleman has more than 25 years of experience at the faa and formally unconformity work for the u. S. Nav air systems command. Associate administrator coleman, you are recognized for your Opening Statement. Thank you. Jim cantwell, chair sinema, Ranking Member smith a distinguish many of the subcommittee, thank you for the invitation to be her today to discuss the important topic of promoting safety and innovation and the new space economy. The success of the u. S. Commercial space industry is critical to our nation. Likewise, clear, predictable, transparent and right size relation of use commercial space is also critica for u. Continued leadership in space. The department of transportation and the faa are strongly commitd to enabling safe u. S commercial space activities in a manner consistent with our nations priorities. This is why the dartmen of transportation and the faa unequivolly stand in support of the administratns proposal regarding Mission Authorization and supervision of novel commcial spacectivities tha puts forward a cle and predictable Oversight Framework that will impose minimal regulatory burdens on u. S. Private secr actors in space. The proposal featus clear a cler delineation of rulatory oversight roles and responsibilities that smartly leverage existing u. S. Depamental authories and expertise. Specifally, the proposal logically extends the department of transportatio existing human spaceflightesponsilities to include human spaceflight tivities in space. This will ensure consistent, Single Agency oversight of human spaceflight acvities throughout our missions full lifecyclerom launch all the way through reentry. Further, proposal gives recognition t commercial in ace transportation, and appropriately assigns responsility for this very specific grouping of activities to the department of transportation, which current oversees u. S. Private secretary of traportation operations to win from space. Regulatory oversight clarity and process efficiency are important benefits garnered from this very common sense oversight construct. Over the lt several monthse together with our interagency rtners have worked tirelessly and givenareful and thoughtful consideration to the needs of u. S. Private sector and u. S. Government operators in space while crafting this important proposal. We are steadfastly committed to coinuedlose collaboration with the department of commerce, nasa, the department of defense and other agencies to collectively ensure the application of consistent standards in promoting safe and sustainable novel space activities. Since september of las year, i have been privileged to lead the faas office of commercial space transportation, which carries t theepartment of transportation statutory responsibility to rulate u. S. Launch an reentry, and u. S. Laun an reentry site operations, only to the extent necessary to protect the Public Health and safety, safety or property and national secity and Foreign Policy interests of the United States. Overall,e haveicense nearly 700 commercial launch an reentry operations, and 14 nonfederal space force, more than any of the country in the world by far in both categories. Safety is the faa north star, and were proud of the fact that no faa licensed launch f reentry operation resulted in a fidelity or injury to a member of t public, or cause significant publ property damage. In recent years we have witnessed the pace and gwth of u. S. Commercial launch reent operations incased significantly, along with a commensurate increase in demand for my office is licensing products and safy services. Looking forward, in order to maintain safety while keeping pace with iustry, we will remain reliant on the iredible work of a fully staffed office of commercial space transportation team. Im happy to mention that with caucuses support we raise our tol staff size to 147 withhe addition of 33 new staff numbe congress support. My office also remains strongly focused onmplementation of the streamlinedaunch an reery regulation, part 450,hich which is performancebased a allows for the obtaining of a single license or portfolio of erations from multiple sit to facilitate interstate transportation to part 450 reported to industry an assortment of aids including license applition checklist, advisory circulars as well as virtual torials and workshops. I remain very confident that part 450 offers a step in the right dirtion towards efficiency and work load reductions for both the government and industry whout sacrificing safety. Thank you again for the opportunity to partipate i todays hearing, and i look forward to your question. Thank you, mr. Coleman. Our next witness is rhard dalbello. Mr. Dalbello serves as the director of the commerce departme office of space commerce. Prior to thisole he spent time as virgin gactic Vice President of Global Engagement and in the White House Office of science and technology policy. Director dalbell you are recognized for your Opening Statement. Thankou. Chair campbell, chair sinema, Ranking Member schmitt, senator hickenlooper and members ofhe subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My office, the office of space commerce, or osc, along with our colleagues in no one in the department of commerce appreciate you continu support and advocacy for commeral space industry noaa. For over 30 years osc has worked sportnd enable u. S. Leadershipn theommercl ace economy. Over those years we have partned with industry to solve complex policy a export control issues, open new markets to encourage investment, minimize government and to nimize government competition with industry. Our office is currently the regulator of the u. S. Commercial mote sensing industry and we are implementing out the next generation of space suational awareness program. U. S. Commeial sector is the driver of our ecomy and underpins our National Security prosperity andeadership. According to the bureau of economic analysis, the u. S. Space economy accounted for more than 211 billion in 2021, and employed over 360,000 americans. To ensure continued u. S. Space leadership, t government needs a regulatory system that can support the dynamic and evolving commerci sector. We believe the ainistration legislative proposal developed with dot, dod, nasa and the rest of o interagency partners is the right vehicle for addressing this change. U. S. Space regulatory responsibilities are currently shed across multiple agencies. Most rules were put in place prior to the recent surge in commercial activity. As more novel space activities are tested, flown, and orated, uncertaintybout how such acvities will be regulated could negatively affect both Investor Confidence and space safety. We support the legislative proposal recently released by the white house. We are confident we will creat a mern flexible regular system that protects val u. S. Interests, response to Industry Needs, andnsures continued compliance with intnational obligations. The proposal wld without perturbing existing authorities establish a regulaty framework designed to cover anticipated new technologies while proding the flexibility to respond to the that we cnot envisn today. Osc iseady to rise to the challenge and a recen remotesensing regulatory streamlining demonsttes how we would manag new responsibilities. This year alonee have taken acon which have relieved our licenss of over 70 burdensome restrictions, while simultaneously protecting tional security and the Foreign Policynterests of the United States. Beyond a supportive rulatory amework, a robust civil space situational winners, or s capability, is eential for safety and vitity of the space sector. Commercial Space Companies have launched thousands of new satelles over the past few years, and they have plans to launch tens of tusands more in the upcoming years as orbits become increasingly congested, there is a need to better tra Space Objects and deconflict traffic. Space policy directive three assigned us the resnsibility for proving a future ssa service. Osc intends to provide the Services Globally to commercial and civil space operators, offloading those responsibilities from dod so that dod can focus on its core mission. Tracks, the name of our program, traffic coronation sits up in space, will provide basic satellite tracking data and associated products free of direct user fees to support the sustained growth of civil and commercial space activities. Althou tracks received significant funding in 2023, we like a specific congressional thorization for the program. The white house proposal would provide such authorities and help us engage International Partners in our ssa and space traffic coordination. Over the last year weve made Good Progress on the tracks program hiring key step in beginning acquisition of commercial infrastructure necessary for the operational safety system. We have entered into formal agreements wh dod and nasa on data sharing and the future of ssa technology, and we will sn initiate a series of path finder programs that engage the commercial sector to identify cutting Edge Technologies and clarify Global Market pricing. In conclusion, osc is expand our activities inupport of just industry to match the speed and scope of its growth. The administrations proposal dressing both space Mission Authorization and Space Situational Awareness would give us the tools to effectively carry out these activities. We look forward to working with you and your staff to ensure a safe and sustainable space environment for all humanity. Thank you, mr. Dalbello. Our final witness is john hill. Mitchell serves as Deputy Assistant secretary of defense for space and Missile Defense in the department of defense. He previously served as the printable direct for space policy and has held a variety of assignments at the department of defense. Deputy assistant secretary hill, you are recognized for your Opening Statement. Thank you. Chair campbell and chair sinema, Ranking Member cruze and tragicomic disinvestment, on behalf of the office of secretary of defense its an honor to testify today here alongside my distinguished lleagues. Service delivered from spacebased systems drive moder economies. The contribution of earth observation systems positioning navigation timing systems, select medications and data transport systems are essential to modern life. The same is true for National Security. The National Defense strategy highlits the indispensable contributions that these Space Systems make to the integrated ability of the joint force to defend the homeland, to deter strategic attacks against the United States, our allies and partners, and to deter aggression while being prepared to prevail i cflict, when necessary. To an increasing extent, commercial Space Systems are contributing to these essential services, much the same as the commercial economy has supported the fence needs across all sectors of the economy throughout ouristory. The department of defense is utizing commercial services and benefiting fm the competitive commercial Market Forces that are driving invationn the space sector to an ever greater extent. The United States has led the wa and exploring space and developing new marke for services delivered fm spa. Now, u. S. Commercial industry is pursuing new opptunities to develop markets for services and manufacturing delivered in space. Services that can expand the pontial for Space Exploration and for service delivered from space. The United States has also been a leader in establishing legal and Regulatory Frameworks for spectrum, space launch and reentry, andemotesensing that make our nation a highly attractive place for commercial space entrepreneurs and investors to dousiness, all to the benefit of our economy and our National Security. So it is appropriate to consider what legal a Regulatory Framework updates may be requir to enable these new forms of commercial space activities. The department of defense is not a regulaty agency, but we have a long history of cooperating with our civil Regulatory Agency partners to help them understand any National Security dimension of the decisions they may be making. We have also worked closely wh these agencies to update regulations so that the national secutyonsiderations reflect uptodate considerations of risks and riskitigation approaches. The recent rewrites of regulations for licensing commercial space launch serces d private Remote Sensing Space Systems reflect this partnership. The administratns legislative proposal on authorition and supervision of novel private sector space activities like wes coinues this aroach by requiring consultation with the secretar of defense concerning matters of nationalecurity. And to be very clear often the overriding National Securit consideration is to enabl competiteness of u. S. Industry without burdensome licensing conditions, while managing any risks of a given activit through other means available to the department and our partners acss the National Security community. Finay, the administrations proposal includes importa thorities by which the department of commerce will be able to conduct a number of inherently civil Space Situational Awareness functions currently handledn the department of defense. The transition of these functions to a civil agency wl enable the deparent of defense to focus our work on the inherently military aspects of the spac Situational Awareness and space domain awareness missions. The department of defense has worked together wh our interagency partners to craft the administrations legislative proposal that proposal accounts for our Nation Security concerns including concernsor sustaining a space environment thatnables National Security Space Operations. It likewise accounts for u. S. Treaty obligations and broader National Interests. We urge your support, and thank you for your attention. I look forward to your question. Great. Thank you all for being here. Chair cantwell would be back. She wanted to make sure that i said that she goes from one fire emergency to the next. Lets start the questioning. I i will start with you, mr. Dalbello. Call about is a leader in the aerospace economies, and is going to ry on efficient, thorough, reliable approvals from the federalovernment to be able to do the innovations necessary to succe in space. We are working on, to introduce Bipartisan Legislation to create a modern Mission Authorization that while a lge and Small Companies to a regulatory certainty for how their activities will be reviewed, be able to mntain maintain our obligations to our international partne and mntain levels of fety. This will ensure u. S. Remains the Global Leader in space. Mr. Dalbello, if authozed by congress how will the office of space commerce prepare its resources and personal to authorize novel in space activities on a thorough and timely basis . Thank you very much for that estion. Ablutely, one of the first things we do would be to engag this is a broad allocation of authority tha were seeking in our legislative package, and the first step to implement that would of course be to engage in regulatory review process which would involve the mmercial sector. So first of all we would do this in partnership. Secondly, we would seek those things. I think you mention most. E is clarity of purpose if the private secr needs to undetand wt other goverent object is we are pursuing. Theecond is this should be strict timelines. Ivate sector needs tonow what a license what doeshe license process look like him ad how long is going to take. And finally the processes of flexibility. Recently, as i mentioned in my oral testimony, wectually reduced restrictions on Remote Sensing industry lensees this year. We did that because we have written into our regulations as the Global Environment changes, as technology advanced, we he to have a regulatory syste that is responsive so that the private sector isnt burdened with old and unnecsary regulations. So we would seek to take the same approach engagement with industry, engagement with our colleagues in congress, and we would mov forward and put together a regulatory system that met those requirements. A system and falls and innovate as go forward. What a concept. Ms. Melroy, for innovation to truly flourish Small Businesses get an opportunity to cpete with larger players in the arena,hich have historically been awarded to the large contras. Administrator melroy come in your testimony you discussed nasas role as a purchase of services fro the commercial sector. How can smaer businesses enhance nasas future t the nasamall Business Innovation search and sma Business Technology transfer programso effectively compete for the on contcts in this burgeoning space economy . Senator, thas for asking, topic that a interested in. I do believe that sma businesses are the backbone of our country economically, but also bring that kind of innovation tt we need for the mission that we have. We are very excited to sayhat wembrace the amount of money we have awarded to Small Businesses by hundreds of millions of dollars over the last fiv years or so, and as yo pointed out they are a key part of that. Where the great examples come from the state the sta thats advanced spaceho developed the Capstone Mission which is even now exploring the novel near rectilinear hand orbit around them in a preparation for future human spaceflight activities there. To help us understand that orbit better so thate can be more efficient as we operate and that stored under an sbir in 2015. Absolutely. Mr. Coman, administrator leman, your ttimony highlights faas responsibility for facilitating commercial spe launches and three entries by the private sector. Faa has seen 186 186 incn license applications since fiscal year 2020. Because of the faas work, every u. S. Licensed launch or reentry operation from space force has met withoutccepting the highest levels of safety, despite the obviously unforgiving nature of the space enronmen we introduced a bipartisan space po act of a infrastructure needs at just space force such as call about aerospace port. How ds the fa sport infrastructure needs of emerging space force around the country to continue with licensing along with prioritizing safety . Thank you for the question, senator hickenloope in 2018 as result result of t reauthorization act for the faa, we did stand u an office of space force which supports the infrastrture needs of our4 license space force in the u. S. Pirg we work very closely with those space forceo address policy concerns, funding concern, other issues that are of interest to the space port. We work very closely with that in that regard. We also have authorization for a space port and for such a matching Grant Program if you will. We have that authority for some years now. We havent had it appropriated but we do have that authority in place to ensure that space ports are being developed appropriate to develop our Lunch Service providers need. Greatthank you so much. Im going to cut myself off, turn over to the Ranking Member, vi chair senator schmitt. Thank you, senator im going to try to go in rapidfire because will have five minutes and ive questions that we did get a chance to vis some of us already. Deputy administrator melroy, i really appreciate your service, the only one here knew i think thats been to space. Raise your hand if anybody else has. I think you. Thank you for your service. Its a distinguished career. My office we talked about just how novel these in person space activities are and it presents different realities like theres not a lot of data surrounding all this right now as a Regulatory Framework. Sorting grappled with. Could you just talk a little bit about that with those human operations how certification really does kind of depends on individual vehicles . Right . Just talk abouthat come and provide that a little bit. Thank you, senator. I really enjoyed o discussion on this. And yes, it does give you a novel perspective being in space. I think it is where everything comes together and you have to see how it all works. Actually nasa has more than 50 years in human spaceflight experience doing things like satellite servicing, building the interNational Space stion, servicing hubble and so forth using humans. We have new technologies that were seeing autonomous but, of course, the human spaceflight expertise is core with us. So i think we, one of the areas were interested in, we have worked very successfully with the faa over the last decade on commercial crew. We have come to clarity. We need to protect our astronauts. We would expect any regulator to worry about Public Safety and to set a threshold and a bar, a performancebased bar. We go much further in protecting our astronauts, and we do that contractually today. Ande have worked with our commercial providers to certify the vehicle for the operations that we do. It works very well for us because we have a spacecraft, such as spacex crew dragon, that goes, carries o astronauts to the interNational Space station and back. We have a long history of how to certify a spacecraft. You think that sort of inures to the benefit of the vality of a learning pragmatic kind of approach to all of this . Would you agree . Well, na thinks that it is, we would prefer not to extend the learning period, and ill tell you why. Although we certi these vehicles for nasa operations, we are concerned that spaceflight participts believe that nasa is cerfying the safety for their activities as well, and that is not somethi that we do. We have concerns about the misunderstanding. Okay, thank you. We can follow up and talk more about that. Associate administrar coleman, i do want ask can you explain how the white house proposal will be different when the existing as a regimes that we currently have already struggled to meet statutory time tim . Thats one big concern. Faa, we want to be very supportive but it dont ask dont tell for some of this timeless. Can you explain how this would be any different than that. Was sure, thank you for the question, senator. Certainly with large licensing its a very intense process whereby a number of factors come into play. The complexity of the operation, the familiarity with the applicant, with the rul, familiarity with the regulator, with the operation that is being proposed, the quality of the application itself, whether or not the evidence is sufficient enough to demonstrate compliance is there. These are factors that lend itself to the pace at which licensing occurs. These activities we are talking about for in space transportation Mission Authorization are significantly different, if you will, from launch activities and related activities that pose an entirely different risk exposure to the public than these activities. For launch and reentry we rely on Flight Safety analysis, system safety analysis, trajectory analysis. We are not talking these types of analyses for these novel in Space Missions. They are quite different, and we envision a very light touch approach very similar to what the Commerce Department would apply for in space msions that they would orsee. One finaluestion before at a time period mr. Hill, as commercial demands grow beyond the capabilities of vandenberg and cape canaveral, do you believe that the memorandu of agreement that you currently have should be expanded to include additional ranges for reentry operatns . I think we need to always be looking at the growth of where commercial is going and ensure that where the Defense Department can support these types of growth areas. So look at the m. O. U. To see whether that is current or needs to be updated is appropriate as well. Because there are spaceports going around the country. It also increasing growth at dod facilities. And as i said, an Opening Statement fundamentally that is get the patient of funding that it is good for us. We discussed how to accommodate those thing. Thank you. Yield back. Thank you. Great. And i will continue the questioning. I thought that was the chair coming in. Mr. Hill, i didntet a chance to ask you a question. As you are no doubt aware, the internationalraffic in arms regulations, regulations, or itar, is commonly referredo, set strict reqrements for the United States in terms of the export of defense related articles and serces. Itar requirements can signicantly impact the sce industry and could have a Chilling Effect onur abity to be, lets say, a partn of choice for allied or friendly countries who are seeki to expand their Space Programs using u. S. Commercial techlogies. Whil the state departmt viously has uimate authoty out what end up on that munitions list, dod Defense Technology security administration, the tsa, is a leader of your and coordinator potential changes. Can you speak a little to what dates our current export policy might help bolster combateness of use space startups seeking to export their technology to allies or outside partr nations . Thank you, senator hickenlooper. One of my close colleagues is director ofefense Technology Security administration, so while its not in my parcular area we do consult because i have interest from a space licy perspective. A number of years ago the United States governmen moved maybe i didnt all of the traff in ar regulation to the Commerce Department, commee control list, moving to out of the classification of arms into more regular commerce types of export items. Thats been a regular review process that is ongoing, a they do every year or two to see how has the world changed, the economy change. What we want to focus the idea i are on are those things that are truly the most concern from munitions perspective and recognizing the Space Technology is moving very ft. And what is a special military today cou be commodity tomorrow. We need to stay ahead of the pace, and so that w dont constrain u. S. Industries competitiveness by rulatory lag. So that evidence been going on a couple of years. While i cant speak to specifics, that mht be movie. I know that is a regar focus of both state department and the defens Technology Security administration. I figured if she is goi to gr, increasingly become a point of contention and debate. Ihink i would start with ms. Melroy and go down the list. We talked a lot about in the subcommittee about space debris over the yea, and there are a number of bills and process or half past. Once yr sense i terms of company, we have aook that of the wild westut there. There have been very few restrictions and regulations. There is an enoous amount of debris already out there traveling at speeds that are hard for us standing stably on the planet earth, har for us t conceive of how fast t sometimes very small fragments n do enormous damage at such high speedster anywa whats yourense of what congress should be looking at and how we shld approach this, wt level of urgency shoulde have . Thank you, senator hickenlooper, and thank you for your leadersp on this topic with the orbits act. I think its critically important. I would say that is universally realize that we have some real challenges in this area. I tnk the act of the brief remediation piece of it that you addressed is a critical piece. I actuallyhink this legislative proposal is very helpful. Specifically because its loing at the safety of the space environment. And so that contains many more of the pieces tha we want to be looking at. Horrible debris generation and remediation, but also of aspects of the space safe environment, that the Department Defense and nasa operate in. We thi its very important to address some of those other pieces as well. We are currently working onhis and were we are proud ofk that we do in our orbital debris models, the help that we give industry about best practices, and we have a ken buck, and the kinds of things. But theres a lot more work to be done. I see senator vance snuck in on a per view, so are you okay if they finish . Go ahead, mr. Duval spy to 20, on the debris issue that that is why we are so focused in the the department of congress on the next generation of Space Situational Awareness. We need better information about, better and more time information about whats in space. We need to make more reliable warnings available to t commercial sector. We need to have a plan all around the world as i travel, countries are developing their own as as a systems. Theres really no clear correlation between the systems and its unclear that the results of individual systems can be correlated in a way thats meaningful. We have a task, and international task, to Work Together to figure out, number one, lets have the best system in the world, and number two, lets figured how to engage globally to make sure that all actors in space are operating safely. Great. You dont need, i dont see any birding site to add to that. I would move over to senator vance. Thank you, mr. Chair. Thanks to the four of you for being here. Iant to ask some questions come basally abo whether the new rule o the new prosal is undu complicated. So its my understandi under the administrations proposa th response responsibir authorizing licensing supervising cmercial space missns would be split between dot and the department of commerce. Can you help me understand whether a mission will need authorization from the department of transportation or commerce. Maybe, mr. Dumbbell and mr. Coman. Windowomething fall under commerce per purview and whl fall under transportations . Sure, thank you for the question, senator. So there are two specific carveouts in the proposal for Th Department of transportation. Activities that involve a human being are responsible that wont rest with the department of transportation. Activities that involve the transport of goods inpace. Also will reside with the department of transportation. The sole purpose of the operation or activity is for transportation, and a few of those activities. Those activities would rest with the deparent of transportation. All other activities would rest with the department of commerce. So what we have is a construct whereby for a single activity only a Single Agency will have oversight of that responsibility. There is no situation in which boTh Department of commerce and the department of transportation will have joint oversight responsibilities for a single activity. And just to follow up there, mr dalbello in if you can feel free to jump in. Let me toss out this hypothetical and excellent to me what im missing, or if im right, we can sort of go from there. So let s iavent in orb servicing msion toight need toalk for refueling oror some of the purpose. Underhe proposal i understand it, the i orbit Servicing Mission uld b licensed by commerce, but in t commercial Space Mission or the commercial spe staon is licensed byhe departmentf tnsportation. So i guess, what i as an operator need mtiple licenses from each agency in order to do this particular mission . One of the things thats a great question and we been asked that question previously i think. Its a great question because if, as calvin said, if it involves humans the space station would be licensed by the department of transportation. So if it were a space tug or reeling station, it would be licensed by the department of mmerce. In the business of refueling or space tug would be a commerce license. So even if there were in your scenario think a target talks with the station press to refuel, the two lenses would be separate in that case. The activity of the station would be licensed by d. O. T. But the activity of a target service of which the stion might be one ofany customers wou be a department of commee licse. Was any discussion or has it been discussion for when you have a scenario like this and understand this is probably somewhat unual but not that unusual, where you have a scenario where to go to both transportation and commerce to just sort of fold, basically give one agency jurisdictional control so you dont st of confused, get out o multiple people going t difrent places. I wonder like other jurisdictional disputes where you might hav commerce and transportation fightingver where you dra the line . I just worry that as commercial space aviation or spaceflig becomes more compl, that you might create jurisctional issues where maybe some other approach might just make it more simple. I think central tony of the scenarios we are talking about there will be a robust interagency process that will be stood up along wh these things. We do this now. I mn, our regulations and commercial remot sensing a really done, we are very tightly linkedith the National Security community o what we do. D you know that kelvin in his launch licenses h a payload revi that broadly, its broadly reviewed in the interagency process. So whether to jum ball like that, often there will be an interagency discussion, and thats what i said its really important for any rule set to come with strict timelines. Because you had to be able to me as the comrcial sector has an expectation that theyan get an answer in orinal timeline. So strict guideline, strict timelines are important to move those pcesses along. Somemes you to talk to your interagency partners, but that process also has to have momeum behind it to meet the needs of the commercial sector. Sure. So thank you all. Im mindful of my time here so i will you back with one final comment. I guess if this stuff unfolds as we see others provision plays out in the real world, the one request is that if you see the sort of jump all situations come up and there and duly called wicket for the commercial space industry, maybe we can figure out ways to simplify them. Thats one big worry i have with these things, that these like weird jurisdictional jump all issues as you put it might come up more than we would like. Thank you. Thank you, senator vance. Ranking member kaine is. Thank you, mr. Chaman. Welcome to each other with his today. Good to see you. I want to start withr. Coleman and mr. Hill. Thank you for bng here. It was great to see starship find succeed in conducting its second test flight just a few weeks ago. This was of coue after months of delay stemming from reaucratic red tape fm ast, fish and wildlife, and other agenci injected itself into the proces an Environmental Review had been approved for the fstaunch of starship but simply because spacex must continu new test launches, they were required to go through a whole new Environmental Review proce. To your knowledge, does chi apply its own version of environmental policy review equivalent to nional environmental policy act under which chines citizs or perhaps a Bat Conservation group can sue the ccp and halt missile or space Vehicle Development . And what about russia . Does russia do that . Thank you for you question, senator crews. The first space x launch that you mention overflight test one did result in a mishap whereby the pad was destroyed for the second flight. Bed repair the p, and asuch duty that change it required new look at the environmental peace to ensure compliance with nepa and to ensure compliance with environmental species act, which required a consultatn with the fish and wildlife rvice. So we conducted that consultation with the fh a Wildlife Service in accornce with u. S. Law. To your second questionbout china and their programs, im not asamiliar with what china does there, b i can tell you with the surety that w follow u. S. Law and procedure in our envinmental review process associated with the second launch of starship. Thank you, Ranking Member. Im not familiar with the chinese legal structure, but i know enough to say i wouldnt find it as a goo mel for us. Well look, ive been to that pad with a large occurred, and tell you the answer is no. In china you cannot do that. You dont have those suits. Inrush of the answer is no. T me ask you this. When china or rsia undertakes a National Space msion, do either of them wait f months to go through litation with the domestic versions of earth justice or the center for biological diversity . I am not certain oware of what russia and china does in ose scenarios. Senator, to my knowledge they not do those tngs, sir. I think thats part of the valley of ourystem that is the openne that we have. So with all due respect, its not the value of our system to ask my delays that account was nothing and the put us at a disadvantageompared to our competitors. We are in a race for space. Space exploration interest. And we work closely with nasa and the Defense Department to ensure that whave timely, accurate, precise licensing reviews for these critical programs and well continue to do that moving forward. Senator, we are enabling commercial launch in this country and commercial space in this country from our perspective and the Defense Department because it benefits us in the Defense Department and i think that commercial firms are finding this the attractive place to invest even though we have the regulatory processes of ours. So i think that we should continue to ensure this remains the envirment where Companies Want tout their mon to wo. Well, i think youre right we need to work to ensure that and that means that there ould be a mandate for streamlining the process so that its sensible rather than being counterproductive. Deputy administer, let me thank you for your service in the air force and now nasa. In our last heing, former na assiate ainistrator for human expration and operation noted how the slo licensin process is causi schedung delays for starship and consequently thertemis Lunar Landing miion. Shsle says these quote, would simply not be acceptable if he were at nasa. Do you think that the regulatoryelays that impact artemis are ceptable . Put another way, does the current regularly frame work for commercial space move fast enough or enoughlexibility for a company to it rate a vehicle for a mission of National Interest . Thank you, senator. And may i just say thank you for your support of all of our texas activities that we do and your support of nasa. Its been increble through the years and we appreciate it. Of course, were vitally interested in the success of our commercial partners, as i brought up. In, i actually contacted the Program Manager and asked, do you think our partners are slowing us down . And was told no. I think the complexity that were seeing isheres a lot of new stuff happening and theres some new players who are trying to work within their statutory deadlines, but are very unfamiliar with this kind of activity so, there has been a learning period. I dont refer to the f. A. A. Who understands their business very well, but some environmental partrs who learn along the way. I can assure you that nasa works closely with those regulatory partners and they have signaled they are aware of the critical nature of the Artemis Program and its success to the nation. Hank you. Chair cantwell . Thank you so much. Thank you for holding this important hearing. I thank you and senator smith or stewardin this panel and the panelists for being here today. I want to focus on technology in general and risks and i know you represent different viewpoints, particularlyrom the agency side, bu i would hope that you might be able to quickly just, and then for the record, if necessary, give us more detailed answer. What do you think are the Technology Risks with space commercialization . Thisommitt played a very big role i a new cerfication program for the f. A. A. , trying to correct wha we thought were some shortages, bh in work forcend in redundancy issues, but how do you seehe commercial space challenge and what do you think are the technological challenges that we really need to fus on from the safety perspective . We in the northwest are very proud of the 4. 6 billion space industry, thatso our economy and 13,000 jobs, but we wt to get the next phase right, too, so how would you characterize those technological challenges from a safety perspective . Anyone who wants to do you want to start, mr. Id be happy to start. I think, again, were seeing a use of space at a pace that is surprising, even to those of us who are veterans, and as we see the fleets of commercial satellites in particular move into the single and then double digit thousands, again, our focus in the department of commerce is on Space Situational Awareness and putting the next generation way to track Space Objects. Onef the issues we have not just the United States, but the chinese have announced a mega constellation that they want to launch and i suspect similar activity in europe. We could see the number of satellites launched in the tens of thousands. So the technical challenge is the systems that we have today arent sufficient to do the level of exquisite ssa that we need. We need to be consistently excellent at something the day that were only good at. And youre not just arguing about the debris side of the equation, youre talking about the communication interference, i would guess and other im talking about the actual physical objects in space where you get ts of thousands of objects in low earth orbit together with human space flight. It is a potentially volatile situation. So youd say number one issue. From my perspective thats the number one issue. Okay, mr. Coleman. Senator, thanks for the question. I think as we see more commercial space launch activities take place particularly in the National Air Space system were significantly challenged to accommodate the number of launches alongside the commercial aviation activities that were seeing. Weve been addressing that through procedural changes, policy changes, and also, were trying to address it through technological changes as well. Looking to implement and stand up new tools that will help us better understand where the vehicles health is, where it is in the system, et cetera. We need to advancehe efforts to better manage the proliferation of space activities that were now seeing in the National Air Space system for sure. Mr. Hill, do you want to jump in there . Certainly, if i could pick up on what he was discsing, as the volume of space vehicles grows, exponentially in space, the challenges is incorporating into the space surveillance networks. Government, commercial, and others, and the data fusion that you need to keep track where all of this is. This is why, one of the reasons why wre saying this is not a traditional Defense Department mission, thats more classic civil agency type of mission. Our focus is on, particular satellites that mht be of a threatening nature, this the challenge we have here is commercial or orbital dynamics. Certainly technology will allow more autonomous control and more capacity in lower earth orbit, but staying pace with that will be one of the challenges fro a safy perspective. You would say autonomous capacity, maybe, nber o or no . We probably dont know what the ultimate capacity is as the capacity to manage is grows, but keeping pace with it. Im sure our Delivery System with all of that equipment and rate to the moon is going to be autonomous, isnt it . Thats correct, chai ere will be humsn the loop, but many ofhe actities have a time delay as well. Well, did you have something you wanted to put in . Yes, i did. In the remaining, its very difficult to narrow it down. I agree with my colleague about space domain awareness, not just for collision avoidance, but rendezvous and proximity in the safety and the accountability for those actions. We believe that understanding the explosive potential of new propellants is important working with the industry and the f. A. A. To define that for the safety of ourperations as well as commercial. Ill add technology that enables spectrum sharing and im sure the department of defense could talk more about that because they have a lot of programs in that area. In addition to that, we believe that its vital to do continued research on Nuclear Power and propulsion, to enable deep space capabilities, but we want to do it safely. Thank you so much. What id like to do is just have you expand for the record what do you think the top three issues are. Youve kind of achieved that, ms. Milroy, but for the record if you want to add five or six other things, great. I think its more part of our challenge Going Forward on how to look at this is really understanding whatre the technological challenges and work force challenges, in the context of even what is proper oversight. Until you really understand what the Technology Challenges are, you reallyant decide whether you have the Technology Support and oversight that you need and as people discuss, is commercial the place to be, is f. A. A. A place to be and how do we coordinate between various agencies and obviously, mrhill, spectrum issue in and of itself, its a question how do all of these come together and do you all basically, although they may not have said the word pace, but everybody is talking about the rap deployment here of next Generation Technology and how do you how does the government even stay paced with that, and what does it take for the right people, the right dialog and information. Anyway, i look forward to your written answers to those questions, too, and thank you, thank you so much for the hearing. And thank all of you, we appreciate youre taking the time. We know that your busy job, i was sayin the other day, setor kim was talking when you get to certain leve, you get to the highest level and people still know what theyre doing and all of that, all at that level. The hearing recd is going to remain open for four weeks, until january 10th, 2024. And any senators that would like to submit questionsor the record should do so two weeks from now at the latest, december 27th. We ask that the responses be returned to the committee by january 10th whenever possible. Thank you, that concludes todays hearing. We stand adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaible conversations] abortion access. This is under