The documentary the act of killing Joshua Oppenheimer will be with us. Magnificent film. applause we start tonight right here in new york city. Stop and frisk is a controversial tactic used by police in big cities like new york, los angeles, and philadelphia. In new york, its been policy for 11 years, defined like this a person is temporarily detained on the street against his or her will for the purposes of questioning. John thats right, stop and frisk, not just the title of a 90s ripoff of turner and hooch about a cop whose partner is a cat. The movie has some problems once the bad guys realize they can completely distract the cat with a laser pointer. Damn it, frisk, focus ive almost got it, sarge laughter for years, opinion in new york has been divided on laughter . Ill allow it. For years, opinion has been divided on frisk with black and latino residents of the city saying its an invasion of their liberty and white redents saying oh, i think i heard a thing about that on npr. Is that still happen . Ing. laughter obviously, i dont mean to suggest that its only use against the citys minorities, but it is almost that. Between 2004 and 2012 there were 4. 43 million stops. 52 were black suspects 3, 1 were hispanic. Of these thousands of daily frisks, only 6 lead to an arrest. John its basically like catchandrelease fishing except you get to feel the fish up and shout at it a bit before throwing it back. Also, almost all the fish are brown. laughter this policy has been in place for over a decade. But there may be some good news on the horizon if you happen to be a minority who likes walking. Today a federal judge called the n. Y. P. D. s policy of stop, question, and frisk unconstitutional. The judge said the city adopted a policy of indirect racial profiling. John its indirect racial profiling. laughter its like a cop saying should we frisk people outside the apollo or outside the Jimmy Buffett concert . Tell you what, lets flip a coin and then head up to harlem. laughter the judging ruling found the police disproportionately targeted black and latino new yorkers citing, for example, that black new yorkers are 20 more likely to be stopped for furtive movements even though, she writes, there is no evidence that black peoples movements are objectively more furtive than the movements of white people laughter look, look, a judicial opinion is not the proper forum to discus the differences between white people and black people. Allow me. White people reach into their pockets like this. Huh . But black people reach into their pockets in exactly the same way. Its the same. laughter cheers and applause but yes, but despite all of that, the judge wasnt suggesting the program be abandoned completely. She has not ordered the city to stop doing this program. What shes ordered it is the city to change how it does it. She wants a federal monitor to look at this program. She wants to gather more data on it, wants in selected precincts officers to wear body cameras when tae do these stop and frisks so that court cans get a better idea of how it works. John interestingly, that body camera idea wasnt original, it was already proposed by one of the mayoral candidates. I will give you one guess which one. laughter so among my proposals were substantial ones about what you do in the stop stop and frisk air era and i propose lapel cameras for police officers. John you heard right, weiner is suggesting body cameras facing out. By the way, do you know how hard it was for our researchers to find that particular clip . Try googling weiner, body, camera and see how many hits you get. Lets be fair, wynner is trying to keep the city from danger. Carlos danger. Danger, danger laughter and applause one person who is not happy with the judges ruling is the current mayor. Throughout the case we didnt believe that we were getting a fair trial and this decision confirms that suspicion and we will be presenting evidence of that unfairness to the appeals court. John hold on. Let me get this straight. You think this program is being unfairly stopped and scrutinized even though its done nothing wrong . laughter i think i know millions of blacks and latinos in this city who know exactly how you feel. cheers and applause but bloomberg isnt alone in being disappointed. Police commissioner ray kelly believe there is a simple way for stop and frisks target to deal with it. The best thing for someone to do thats being stopd is cooperate. Accept it as a fact of urban life. audience reacts . John its a fact of urban life. Like bike lanes or alternative parking or your neighbor leaving her labradoodle bleep right in front of the building. laughter i know it was you, tina pick up after rosco its not roscos fault this policy is easy to ignore for those who dont have to deal with its consequences. But im curious, for those that do, what is this fact of urban life really like . Police start running at with us their guns drawn saying everybody get on the floor, no gun was found, nobody was arrested. They didnt ask for no i. D. , they just said put your hand up. Touched me all over, even in my private parts. Just going through my pockets, going up, down. Ill break your bleep ing arm. For what . Shut your bleep ing mouth john i actually think i get it now. For a moment, let me address the white people. You know how we feel at the airport when the t. S. A. Is patting us down unnecessarily delaying us looking for weapons which we obviously dont have and we just try to get to our gate . Well, imagine your whole neighborhood is terminal b at laguardia. laughter and the t. S. A. Agents sometimes talk to you like this. Boarding pass and what the bleep are you looking at . Open that computer bag before i break your arm mother bleep er irritating, isnt it . A little irritating. cheers and applause for turn we turn to senior daily show correspondent jessica williams. Jessica, as someone who is more likely to be affected by this than i am, do you agree that stop and frisk goes too far . No i agree with commissioner kelly. If anything, stop and frisk doesnt go far enough john, people need to accept this program as a fact of urban life. And right now im standing in one of new yorks most crimeridden neighborhoods. John where exactly are you, jess . Im on wall street. cheers and applause jon what . Youre on wall street . Yeah, im on wall street. The white bronx, business harlem. And frankly, john, i dont feel safe here. And i would like to see the police do their freaking jobs and start stopping people down here. John thats not fair. Thats not fair, jessica. Youre calling for the arbitrary harassment of anyone on wall street. No, no, no. Just people you suspect to be white collar criminals. You know, Walking Around in tailored suits, slicked back hair, always need sunscreen, if you know what im saying. laughter . John i dont like the implication there. Look, i know this isnt comfortable but if you dont want to be associated with whitecollar crime maybe you shouldnt dress that way boom john whoa, whoa, whoa. I dont like that. Thats racist. Jessica, that is racist. Youre profiling white men in suits. I am a white man in a suit. Hey, its okay. I can say that. Some of my best friend are white men in suit. John thats a foul. Theyre totally fine with it. And sure, the system is not perfect. 90 of people who are stopped wont have done anything wrong. But isnt it worth a slight inconvenience to their day if it means just stopping one Investment Bank from betting against the same product its selling . John no, no, jessica, can i tell you this . You are merely perpetuate ago negative stereotype. Thats ignorance. Thats all that is. laughter john, i hate to say it because i dont live in their neighborhoods or experience the problems specific to their lives. John thats right, you dont. You dont. But it is a hard fact that whitecollar crime is disproportionately committed by people fit a serb profile. John hey, hey so if youre say white Upper East Side billionaire with ties to the Financial Community like michael bloomberg, youve just got to accept getting roughed up by the police every once in a while cheers and applause you know, for everyones safety. John jessica williams, cheers and applause . Jon welcome back. Hold on tight. What follows is one of the most important stories weve ever covered ever. Jason jones reports. America has always had an obsession with the wild west. But here in fresno, a modern day jesse james is tearing this once sleepy community apart. And this peaceful hamlet of family farms provided the perfect cover for a trafficking ring so big that the federal government hired a private Security Firm to bring it down. Our objective was to investigate the product that was being processed at mr. Horns plant. Our main base was either here at this corner or north of hi plant. We had six to eight agents from sunup to sundown. Well, he called me a fat ass. Seems a little dangerous. What kind of product are we talking about . Coke . Heroine . Raisins. Thats code for what . Raisins. Hes a raisin outlaw. This is raisin outlaw marvin horne who is actually accused of defrauding the government of dried fruit because he refused to contribute to the United States National Raisin reserve which apparently is a real thing that the government uses to help regulate the cost of raisins. My Biggest Issue was the Raisin Administrative Committee now is they confiscate a portion of my crop and dont pay me for it. That just defies all thought or raisins. laughter i started stacking my raisins up, i didnt want to give it to them anymore. And whats your raisin for doing what youre doing . laughter my whole goal always was to pack my own raisins and sell them. So essentially, that is your raison detre . Okay, jason, i see youre trying to be a little funny here but this is not a joke. There is no joke when somebody comes and takes your farm away from you. Thats no joke. Im sorry. I apologize. I was being unraisinnable. laughter i know what youre thinking. Its the middle of the summer, the boss doesnt come back for another week, im phoning in a field piece about bleep ing raisins. I would have agreed with you until i heard this. How much do you owe them now . Approximately 1. 5 million. Im sorry . 11. 5 million . Yes. That may sound ridiculous. Thats because it is. So i high hired a highly trained raisin sniffing companion to help me track down the raisin administrative council. Our job is to measure and be aware of the supply and demand picture of california raisins and to regulate that volume by perhaps setting some aside on the sidelines for a while. Im no raisin expert, but this kind of sound like two scoops of bull bleep . laughter and just when i thought this story couldnt get stupider, i heard this. Sun valley raisin growers took their battle with the federal government all the way to the Supreme Court. So you mean to tell me scalia, roberts, sotomayor, sat there and listened to oral arguments over raisins . Yes. And they had some very penetrating questions. As the Supreme Court transcript shows, the court may have been the only one taking this seriously. Case 12123, horne v. Department of agriculture. What was the interest that theyre claiming was taken by the government . Do you have any idea how many landmark cases we still have to rule on . Being part raisin, i feel i must recuse myself. May i please have a raisin. Get these raisins out of my bleep ing court in the end the justices ruled unanimously that it wasnt worth their time to issue a ruling. But marvin horne vows to fight on. I declared war on the u. S. D. A. Im not going to give you my raisins anymore. Sounds like youre raisin a little hell. laughter be careful, marvin, the raisin council is a ruthless organization. You remember these lovable guys . Ever wonder what happened to them . Well, we used them about 25 years ago and used them until their value and their equity was up. So you just made them sing and dance for years upon years and then offed them . The state Marketing Board has chosen to deemphasize the dancing raisins. And thats it. These guys had a saturday morning cartoon and they whacked them like they were nobodies. The truth is, marvin, you better watch your back. You dont come to the raisin council, they come to you. laughter screaming john incredible work, jason. Well be right cheers and applause . Jon welcome back, my guest tonight is the director of the new documentary film called the act of killing. John please welcome Joshua Oppenheimer. cheers and applause joshua, this is an incredible, complicated, devastating documentary. It took me two hours to watch it, about three days to get over it. Give me give me in the broadest possible terms explain what this is about and get into it. Basically, in 1965 the Indonesian Army overthrew the democratically elected government, leftleaning government of president sukarno and they used death squads to kill all the opponents of the new regime and somewhere between half a million and two and a half Million People were killed inless than a year. And the people who did it have basically been in power or enjoyed been in power ever since and so when you ask them about what they did, instead of acting apologetic about it or denying it, they boast about it. So to understand the nature of their boasting, why theyre boasting, the effect, how they see themselves, what this means to their society i let them dramatize what theyve done in whatever ways they wish to understand the nature of the act of killing. John because there has been no truth and reconciliation in indonesia. They are living in the world that they were living in in 1965 around the killers, theres been no justice for them. So i guess my first question is how did you do this . I mean, how did you gain the trust of these admitted mass murderers who have not been convicted . Well, because theyve been in power ever since it was all all one had to do is go and ask what did you do for a living . And to our horror they would come out with these horrific stories of mass killing and tell them in front of their grandchildren, their wives, their children, and we started i started to wonder what i started to feel as though id walked into germany 40 years after the holocaust to find the nazis still in power. And i wanted to understand what had happened to this society as a result of building a normality on the basis of terror. John the very title the act of killing is deeply profound because for a lot of these men, as you see, it was a performance, it was an act. They openly say that they were emulating movies that they had seen, sometimes that they had literally just walked out of. In the city where we made the film, the army recruited the killers from the ranks of what were called Movie Theater gangsters. These were gangsters who were selling Movie Theater tickets on the black market, hanging out in Movie Theaters as a base using them as a base for much more serious criminal activity and they loved hollywood movies. And killing is a profoundly human act. Were really the only species that does it, but its also a traumatic act. So killers need to distance themselves from what they do and anwar and his friends, the man in the act of killing those are the main characters, they used movies to distance themselves. They would come out of the Movie Theater intoxicated by whatever they had just seen and used that feeling of cinematic their love of cinema to distance themselves from the reality of what they were doing. John and the dislocation that youre talking about, that is what is incredible. When they were reenacting scenes theres a moment where youre showing anwar congo, youre showing him talk about these horrors that hes inflicted and you were expecting it to sink in at that point and he says josh, what i would never have worn white pants. And you think your pants wear is really not the issue here. laughter well, exactly. But the think is, anwar knows that. Because in the the very first time i filmed anwar he takes me to a roof top where he killed hundreds and hundreds of people, shows how he did it, then says that he is a good dancer because ever since killing hes been going out drinking, taking drugs and dancing. And he starts showing how hes a good dancer. He dance it is chacha that on the spot where hes killed hundreds of people and to understand how he can do this i show him that footage back and he looked profoundly disturbed. And im sure hes disturbed about what happened on that roof. About the killing itself. But instead of saying that because to say that would be to admit it was wrong, which hes never been forced to do. Instead he says i should change my clothes. I should dye my hair, i should act better. And in that sense he is he is the the motor, what is fueling the process of reenactment of dramatization which makes the film more and more surreal until it becomes a kind of fever dream. John can you stick around and go to the web . Its truly one of the most incredible, a fbgting, impacting movies ive ever seen. The act of killing is in the theaters now. Joshua oppenheimer. chnd captioning sponsored by Comedy Central captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org
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