Try to clear it up for you. Theres always a danger nothing is shocking. Thats why its helpful to take a step back sometimes and do a data driven reality check. A fascinating the New York Times analysis this week shows President Trump has attacked the russia investigation more than 1,100 times. He uses sig dhr moves of distraction, deflection and division. The larger goal, of course is to discredit the investigation through reputation. It resonates with his base. But faced with a blizzard of lies and fact free attacks normalization begins to creep in. So when the president calls for someone to look into saturday night live because it doesnt like their satire it gets cursary coverage now. It received something close to a collective shrug. What would be an extraordinary attack on the free press by almost any other president becomes just a free day at the office. But every once in a while we get a visceral reminder of the real cost. This week it came in the form of a chilling indictment of a former marine who works at the coast guard headquarters in washington. Hes a vowed White Nationalist who isictively plotting domestic terror attacks against the president s political opponents and cable news journalists as well asnist nbc joe scarborough, chris hayes and ari melber. Four months before that the deadliest newsroom shooting in American History at the Capital Gazette in annapolis. The problem is theres not culpability on the part of the president , but there is growing threats against the press, and thats nothing we can afford to ignore in free society. Joining me now how to confront the numbing of the american mide an allstar panel. And the former president and the yale professional of journalism, jacob wiseberg. There are choices we make in journalism every day, and one of the most difficult is how to cover the president s lies, mistruths vurls s some of the other things happening in the world that are larger and bigger in some respects than holding him to account, venezuela comes to mind. How do you make those judgments in the newsroom every day, between telling the president s account and whats happening in the larger world. Its very much both of those tracts are vital to the migds s mission as journalists. One, to be the underpinning of their information, and then what youre describing which is to hold power to account. And so when the president , you know, repeatedly says were the enemy of the people, the question then becomes how do we respond to that . One response would be adversarialy. The other would be to say this is what we do, were here to serve the public. And reminding them of that by not only necessarily showing them the president s attack but charles, let me go to you because one of our former colleague and friends david frum knowing in hez local paper the coast guard shooter in the into indictment was in the local section. And he took that as a sign of kind of the normalization and numbing. Is this a case of the difficulty covering the gun that didnt go off or the case of us becoming numb . I think were numb to some degree. I think to put it in a larger context of whats happening is important. People consider the media the fourth estate, right . Basically the Fourth Branch of government. What you have now is if you take that context and that framing, one branch of the government attacking the other. And, you know, its a very difficult thing to defend against. And the media unlike the other three branches, theres no election. There is no confirmation hearing. The media is enormous relative to the other branches. And as the definition of what the media is keeps expanding, you know, there become a lot of vulnerabilities both in term of credibility but also physical personal vulnerabilities. There are no guards at my house like there are at the white house. Theres no guards at my house like there are at the Supreme Court or congress. And so there are actual vulnerabilities to you as a journalist, but there are also credibility concepts around are we now lumping in everyone who blogs and does so seriously . And i think theres a lot of great journalism happening in that way, but also theres some jou journalism id be more skeptical happening that way. Jacob, one of the real conversations is the president simply talking as he does, spouting off, and we shouldnt overindex the impact. But every once in a while you start to see him change the conversation. And that was striking this week when we saw a Supreme Court justice picking up the mantel we should libel reform and a landmark case should be reexamined. Whats your take on that . I dont think its plausible. It was a 90 decision. And i think conservatives have long realized that freedom of the press protects conservative views as well as liberal views. In that case along with the pentagon papers case are the foundations of the modern interruption of the First Amendment. Theyre the pillars of what make the American Press the freest in the world. That used to we an idbe an idea United States government had an interest in developing abroad, and where democracies where emerging we were on the side of the free press. And now we have a president giving conditioning to dictators who are harassing the press and due trt in the philippines is an exam of someone who does that specifically citing fake news, enemy of the people. So the concern what trump does creates a kind of permissioning and climate where these Violent Attacks here are maybe not specifically atribtributable to trump. It happens during the Civil Rights Movement where libel law is being specifically wielded. The lawsuit was against an advertisement. This was actually an advertisement by a group of people trying to defend Martin Luther king and raise money for thim. And i think what is borne out of this Civil Rights Era decision is Holding Public figures such as the police, politicians you know, we see that redefined for celebrity and becoming more expansive. The New York Times versus sullivan really is speaking of how we cover and hold power to account, the underpinning of that belief in journalism. Jacob, just quickly because if i dont think folks appreciate how much the threat of lawsuit can have a chilling on speech. And sure theyre in a weaker position to stand up to wealthy bullies who may want to punish them because of something they dont like. What times v. Sullivan protect is honest error. Mistakes happen, and what that case says is that misstakz that arent intentional, mistakes vs. Lies are protected by the First Amendment in most cases. Were going to have to live it there. Up next, Jussie Smollett. The story received wall to wall coverage and why both police are reporting figures at the news media. Before we go to break its oscar sunday, so i thought it would be fun to have some fellow cnn anchors ask what their ffberate movie is and heres john berman. My favorite journalism movie is easy and its the coolest thing ever i occasionally get to speak to Carl Bernstein sometimes. Number two, quoup close and personal. Which segways to number three, which is broadcast news, which isnt fiction. It is actual footage of what it it is like in the television business. And let me tell you everyones career in this business the dirty truth is the william hurt always wins. Whei just put in the namey, of my parents and my grandparents. And as soon as i did that, literally it was like youre getting 7, 9, 10, 15 leaves that are just popping up all over the place. Yeah, it was amazing. Just with a little bit of information, you can take leaps and bounds. Its an awesome experience. Discover. O i like your card, but im absolutely not paying an annual fee. Discover has no annual fees. Really . Yeah. We just dont believe in them. Oh nice. You would not believe how long ive been rehearsing that. No annual fee on any card. Only from discover. To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best to make you everybody else. Means to fight the hardest battle, which any human being can fight and never stop. Does this sound dismal . It isnt. Its the most wonderful life on earth. Lets see, aleve is than tylenol extra strength. Wonderful life on earth. 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In clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve shortterm memory. Prevagen. Healthier brain. Better life. And i dont add trup the years. S. But what i do count on. Is boost® delicious boost® high protein nutritional drink has 20 grams of protein, along with 26 essential vitamins and minerals. Boost® high protein. Be up for life. Welcome back to reliable sources. As the strange saga of the Jussie Smollett case continues one of the biggest criticisms we hear is against the media. And we heard it from the Chicago Police department loud and clear. You all gave this more attention specifically than we do. This has been a heated national conversation. So lets lay out some facts. First, there were 7,175 hate crime incidents in 2017 according to the department of justice. Thats a 17 increase over the previous year. Not only that the number of hate groups in the u. S. Has increased 30 over the past four years. The hate crime hoaxes do occur, but they are very rare if possibly on the rise. According to the director at C State University in San Bernardino there have been at least 49 hate crime reports between 2016 and 2018. But often these cases are high profile and this can go back to the uva rape case falsely reported at stone, the new york city subway system. I think its important to put both things in perspective while liberals sometimes rush to judgment on the other side. Joining me now charles blow, l. J. Grammarson, and john mcwarter and contributing editor for the atlantic. Its great to have you all here. L. Z. , let me begin with you. We heard there was so much attention given to this one case and not nearly enough on the shootings in chicago or the other hate crimes borne out in the country. But you ought to recognize two things. One, shouldnt there be an assumption that the cases are legitimate, and two wasnt this going to be something thatkeep chard people out of the gates because of those elements . You know, i kind of chuckled a little bit having been in chicago, reported in chicago at the idea this case in particular sullied the chicago name as it relates to gun violence in particular. For the chief to insinuate this case dragged the chicago name through the mud 20 detectives over the course of three weeks for one case doesnt seem to be the norm based upon my own reporting in the city. I thought he was disingenuous just in terms of how chicago was positioned. Yeah, it was given extra attention because hes a celebrity and to pretend otherwise would be disingenuous of the media. By criticism is we dropped the word alleged very early in this, and when you had political commentators like myself you didnt correct us when we used the word alleged as well. Thats fascinating and important point. The underlying aspect of what you call victim hood chic, trying to said in some respects the sociology of hate crimes. Given the reality of these racist attacks and homophobic attacks, why would a person pretend that it had happened to them, and why isnt that something you hear about in 1946, in 1966 . Why is it that now we have a rachel dolozol whos white and part of her act is to fake these acts against her . Or somebody like Jussie Smollett a big star on a big tv and he doesnt have any mental problems, that it would make him more interesting and important to have been attacked . Thats something thats relatively new, and i think what were seeing is there is something you could call victim hood chic, where the idea is what makes you most interesting is that you have been the victim of some sort of bigotry. And its certainly true that these cases dont happen at the rate of thousands a year. If there had been 48 cases like this from 2016 to 2018, a certain crowd of usual suspects would be saying it was a National Crisis and what america is all about if it was, say, cop killings. If there were that many white men killing black men, everybody would say it worries me because its about the black sell image, it worries me anyone would think saying theyve been jumped by somebody white makes them more interesting than anything else they could possibly do especially because its a kind of capitulation to evil. And part of whats there in a sense is weve been honoring appropriately the victims of hate. So maybe theres a patina theyre reaching for. When we first talked about this, you said if this is true you must be a psychopath. Do you think thats true as what john is describing is victim hood chic. Im not even going to discuss that theory, but, yes, if he has made all this up, i dont know how else to describe what that would mean because oats not just that he would have made it up. The Robin Roberts interview is fascinating when viewed in lathe of what the police alleged he did. It was saying not only that this happened to me, that you guys are all wrong who are doubting what ive done, that i am a vigilante of sorts. He said that on stage as well, that im the gay tupac. I know once youre in, youre all in. O. J. Showed up at nicoles funeral and held the kids and cried. That is psychopath behavior. And for him to continuously go out and say theres no way if in fact he did what the police say he did, theres no huge break in reality there, and theres also a kind of commitment to the lie and to the persona that would be disturbing if this is true. L. Z. , i mean do you think this is something that simply reinforl reinfor reinforces the fact we all need to be skeptical or this is tragedy because it undercuts the real cases in such a fundamental way . We should always greet these sort of cases regardless of the players involved as alleged until theyve gone through the proper channels and legal system. To me that is the great lesson to be learned here from a media perspective is we assumed no one would do anything like this especially a celebrity because it makes no sense. Were supposed to run that through a filter, through the checks and balances of proper journalism, which an attack is alleg alleged until a jury or judge says otherwise. Thats an important point thats been missing from some of our debates at least as they play out in social media. Thats exactly what i think some of the conversation has been about. Where have the checks and balance, the presumption of innocences, the degree of skepticism,thality being said theres a rushing to the ramparts. Social media does make this worse because we end up talking to each other all day long about these things in visceral terms, telegraphic terms as if we were in a village 100 years ago. So all this happens faster and encourages the shouters. But actually i really do think in a case like this what were seeing is not that america, at least any sensible america is thinking that theres no such thing as a hate crime or a race crime. I think anne colter has said that. I generally dont know what reality shes in to tweet Something Like that out. We can both chew gum and walk at the same time. There are these hate crimes. But when somebody claims as a b and a half list star they get jumped in a heavy coat in the middle of the night by people saying the right things or hanging were a noose around their neck, we are right to be skeptical and just to wonder, and we might think of Jussie Smollett as relative unique no, thats not what civil rights is supposed to be about. And the larger problem is that it undercuts the historical memory of all these cases that have been all too real and still haunt us in the country. I want to thank you for joining us. Up next moving from movies to digital and on a role from revolutionizing it all. First, heres keith baldwins favorite journalism movies. Here are my top three. Broadcast news, a classic, of course. The post because of thumazing performances and because of quotes like, if we dont hold them accountable who will, and last but not least Mission Impossible fallout only because our wolf blitzer makes an important cameo. 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At Office Depot Officemax get up to 200 off on pcs and your tech destination. Thanksmrs. Murphy. Unitedhealthcare, hi, i need help getting an appointment with my podiatrist. Hows wednesday at 2 . I cant. Dog agility. Tuesday at 11 . Nope. Robot cage match. How about the 28th at 3 . Done. With Unitedhealthcare Medicare advantage plans, including the only plans with the aarp name, theres so much to take advantage of. From scheduling appointments to finding specialists, its easier to get the care you need when you need it. But i never had the time and then i tried babbel. [announcer] babbel, the number one selling language learning app in the world. Youre learning phrases that you can use right away in real life conversations. After just four weeks i was feeling confident enough to have simple conversations in french. speaking in french language now im speaking french. Babbel, the quick way to get conversational in a new language. Try babbel free today, go to babbel. Com or download the app. Mental health. Hiv. Patients with serious diseases are being targeted for cuts to their medicare drug coverage. New government restrictions would allow Insurance Companies to come between doctor and patient. And deny access to individualized therapies millions depend on. Call and tell congress. Protect medicare patients. Stop cuts to part d drug coverage. All of you. How you live, what you love. Thats what inspired us to create americas most advanced internet. Internet that puts you in charge. That protects whats important. It handles everything, and reaches everywhere. This is beyond wifi, this is xfi. Simple. Easy. Awesome. Xfinity, the future of awesome. Welcome back. In for brian stelter, and we are hours away from the oscars. And earlier i spoke to barry dillum, a man who weaponinizes his curiosity. Barry dillard thank you for joining us on reliable sources. I made some comments that all of hollywood is dead. You famously throw a big bash on oscar weekend. What have you been hearing from your friends back in hollywood about your predictions ability their demise . Well, first of all they throw little bricks at me and i gently toss them back saying its a bit out of context. And it is out of context. Its not that these companies are going out of business. Its just their hegemony which has gone on for the last 100 years is over. And i think thats probably healthy to recognize. You maybe dont like it necessarily, but, you know, look, technology has changed so many things. What is a movie today . That is blurred. The word movie is going through its first change since probably 1928 or 9 when sound came into the movies. So theres sound happening. One of the fascinating history of our times that has sound behind it and thats jeff bazos whi bazos i thought the only interesting part of it was mr. Bazos reaction to it, which was truly courageous. I mean he could have as many people would do is suppress it, do anything he could do avoid continuing you know, one of the things you do with stories is you dont want to put fire on them. Well, he put huge gasoline flames on them because he said youre not going to blackmail me and get away with it because if i cant withstand it, no one can. And to do that as an individual, a public person who god knows has other things to occupy his time was a matter of i think honor and courage. And that to me was the story. On the flip side with American Media did you consider this a new low in a company thats already been implicated in lots of other scandals you cant do do new low. There is no new low. Whats lower . National enquirer is a bad rag, meaning all it does is exploit people at kind of the lowest kind of concept of whatever it is that can, you know, excite the super market check lines. I mean there was, thank god it was actually put out of business. It was called gawker and gawker did the same kind of sleazy tactics. And its tactics got them caught into absolutely annihilation, a good thing. You are the owner of the daily beast, my former publication, but theres a lot of pressures on Digital Media companies. In just the last several weeks weve seen significant layoffs at vice and buzzfeed, two very hyped brands. And vice laid off 10 of its staff, which is 250 people. My question to you is im not saying who cares in terms of the fact i dont care about people being laid off. I do. But i dont think Digital Media, Digital Publishing which in a sense got kind of free money for a while on theory it could compete, its very difficult to compete in journalism today. But the truth is the big powers of journalism are kpeelticompet quite well. The digital fojournalism for sml players is a just a very difficult business model. In fact subscriptions are going to come online to replace the Digital Advertising portion of it because Digital Advertising is just not a good game for anybody. And so im hopeful that they will improve, but they probably went in front of their skis. One of your favorite topics, facebook there was a parliamentary report calling digital gangsters and saying they were willing to override its users privacy settings in order to transfer data to app developers. Should these big tech platforms be subject to regulation, and if so what . Of course they need appropriate regulation . Look, its not necessarily willful. Its just the nature of things. Now, i think we overregulated, you know, the last period in many respects. But i do think that prudent regulation is going to come along in the next several years when you have situations where it is for the public good. You were a big supporter of Hillary Clinton in 2016. What lessons do you think the party should take from her loss and is there anyone you like in 2020 at this point . Even though i think its difficult, the person ive committed to even though my commitment doesnt mean anything in this case is michael bloomberg. Think i think its a difficult role than for others. For democrats my great worry is theyre putting their foot in it right now, and i worry that theyre going to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. How so . This is not an election about economics. The economy is okay. This is an election about morality and decency. So this is not going to get won on arguing that. It will get won on arguing the only relevant issue. We have an indecent president. And that is a moral question. And it is that question that topic that i think everything should and i hope will revolve around. Thank you very much for joining us on reliable sources. Appreciate your time. Pleasure. You can see more of my interview with reliable sources. Com. Up next a new hire here is taking a lot of attention. Coming up at the top of the hour is jake tapper, and jake, whats your favorite journalism movie . Citizen cane, frauks nixon, good night and good luck. There are too many great movies about journalism but broadcast news and all the president s men are two movies i could watch any time. Were working together to do just that. Bringing you more great tasting beverages with less sugar or no sugar at all. Smaller portion sizes, clear calorie labels and reminders to think balance. Because we know mom wants whats best. More beverage choices, smaller portions, less sugar. Balanceus. Org yeah im excited. Finally earned enough rewards points. So jealous. Yeah i cant wait to get that shaveice whats shaveice . Its like a hawaiian snowcone. Why not just say snowcone . I dont know, they call it shaveice. You fly to hawaii for this . I dont go there for the ice. You saved up your rewards points for ice . Thats a lot of ice. 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Woman help stop the clock on further irreversible joint damage. Talk to your rheumatologist. Right here. Right now. Humira. Right here. Right now. Dealing with your insurance can be frustrating. Lets be honest but with esurance, just snap some pics and you could get back on the road fast well, not that fast. This editor made this commercial fit in 15 seconds. When insurance is simple, its surprisingly painless. Now we want to turn the spotlight on ourselves. In the spirit of transparency. This past week there was some controversy and confusion around the announcement that cnn would be hiring a harvard law granldwit, logranl graduate, and there was a mistake in ideas circulating that she would be directing cnns political coverage of the 2020 election. Thats false. We have a political director already david chalian. And she wont be working on democratic debates or townhalls because we already have a special events team doing so. But lets cut to the chase. A lot of the fall out stems from the fact shes a veteran of the justice department. Happy birthday, but first david, let me start with you. Theres a long history of people moving from politics to journalism. For example, bill mowers went to be the publisher of news day. Tim russert who id argue was the greatest political anchor of alltime was a senior aide to senator moinhan and finally George St George before becoming the widelyermented host of gma this week. David, against this backdrop shouldnt sarah be granted the same opportunity to prove herself . I think you setup the principle rightly. People can decide to shift their career and livelihoods. That makes every sense. The question here is particular and problematic on two grounds. Lets go first to cnn. Cnn hasnt expressly said why they made this hire in a way thats clear to the public. They havent really conveyed it to their own staff. Youre colleagues here at cnn have raised this question to other people and why are there such questions. Its her affiliations not simply as a partisan figure. Its a question of the attitude towards the press. The Trump Administration and her boss at the department of justice, Jeff Sessions also antipathetic to what the press does. It seems to me she needs to come forward and cnn needs to forward i embrace it and heres why. Theres a difference with the Trump Administration and how its treated the press that breaks precedent. Given that i think cnn needs to own this in a clearer way and nonetheless address it with the public. Say why this decision is the right decision. Lets continue to do that. S. E. You obviously a Trump Administration critic. A. Ive known sarah for a long time and i worked with her at the house, when she was at the doj. And shes professional, very smart, lovely to work with. Shes loyal. Shell be good at this job as shes been good at all of her jobs, frankly. But i think the problem was to davids point the confusion. There was internal confusion about what she would be doing. Im glad you, john, addressed that. The sense i got internally was not so much this person is coming from the Trump Administration but what will she be doing . Will she be overseeing our editorial decisions . And once that was cleared up i think a lot of the confusion and the concern went away. But lets be clear, having those concerns is healthy. Its appropriate. I wish that of all of the transitions between administrations and journalism, going in both directions i wish that was met with the same healthy concern every time. For journalists to be concerned about someone coming from an administration into a journalism outfit is appropriate. And we just have to watch and let her do her job and have a chance and see if she can do this. I believe she can. And david, look, i mean ideally Public Service and journalism are two sides of the same continue. Its about you care about civic debates presumably. But there obviously a is different tone and tenor with this administration. The expectation is she will play a coordinating role against digital and tv so that the right hand does what the left hand is doing. And i think the larger question and role of opportunity is the role of ideological diversity in newsroom. Dont you feel its an important asset to the organization not simply trying to play to the base and compound the problem of polarized media . This is a problem i have in come cable news employees, partisan fegiers as paid commentators for the kmetworks as opposed to someone saying we have an outside voice. You have team right, team left, team trump, team antitrump and theyre inhouse. Whos the loyalty to . I am in favor of ideological diversity and geographic diversity in backgrounds, economic all different kinds that form together to form a larger understanding of the tapestry of america. Thats really posht. On the other hand, if we dont know what her role is but to simply say at the table im going to represent the views of those at the trump world including those who were hostile to what journalism stands for, thats a problem. If she comes out and embraces journalism, i can see a path for her. S. E. , i see you shaking your head. Thats not going to be her job. I will say as a conservative cnns interest in having a diversity of views and also backgrounds is a really good thing. The fact that shes, you know, a texan whos worked in a Republican Administration for republican members of the house or republican president ial candidate also famously, though, defended elena kagen in the Obama Administration to the development of her fanldom amon republicans. Her job is going to be coordinating digital and tv. She is not there to be a trump spokesperson. But we are lucky as a journalism outfit to have someone from that environment. And wed be doing ourselves a disservice if we decided to just ban people from this administration who might otherwise be qualified. Having that perspective as part of our journalism outfit can only help us. It cant just be that you hire people from politics for political diversity. There are point of view journalists. What i want to hear from cnn and from flores herself is a commitment to journalism and journalistic principles you arent really hearing from everybody. That is certainly i think consist with the mission of cnn. And i will say theres a benefit to having people understand the politics and practice as well as just theory. But this is an important clar feeing conversation. Congratulations on the new baby. And s. E. , congratulations on everything. Thanks for joining us. Now heres new day host allison on her favorite journalism movies. Number one broadcast news, because i love the holly hunter character who of course we know is susan who has just become the first president of cbs news. So i love that story. So number two is really the documentary anchorman. Who among us doesnt know a guy in tv news just like that. And number three, to die for. And i feel it sort of accurately captures the dark humor of newsrooms. Youre welcome. I always wanted to speak french but i never had the time and then i tried babbel. [announcer] babbel, the number one selling language learning app in the world. Youre learning phrases that you can use right away in real life conversations. After just four weeks i was feeling confident enough to have simple conversations in french. speaking in french language now im speaking french. Babbel, the quick way to get conversational in a new language. Try babbel free today, go to babbel. Com or download the app. Every year, our analysts visit thousands of companies, in a multitude of countries, where we get to know the people that drive a companys growth and gain new perspectives. Thats why we go beyond the numbers. T. Rowe price. Invest with confidence. Thats why we go beyond the numbers. With its billions of records, dna test you could learn youre from ireland. Donegal, ireland. And your ancestor was a fisherman. With blue eyes. Just like you. Begin your journey at ancestry. Com discover. O i like your card, but im absolutely not paying an annual fee. Discover has no annual fees. Really . Yeah. We just dont believe in them. Oh nice. You would not believe how long ive been rehearsing that. No annual fee on any card. Only from discover. Sources say at least five people with dead and 285 injured. They fought with protesters this saturday. They admitted to protect journalists as one reporter is plong the injured. This is the latest dangerous situation they are facing around the globe. Im joined by president of panamerica thank you for joining us. At a time when so many journalists are imprisoned around the world we forget organizations like this are helping people remember they will not be locked away forever. How do you see your role . The point is to silence that and erase him or her. The goal is to make that impossible by bringing world attention to these imprisoned journalists and making it more uncomfortable to leave them in prison than to release them. Does it work . It does work some times. Of the 42 journalists 37 have been released. We have had great successes and others that were actively working on. Final question for you. As a novelist you said you see society in terms of a story. Where do you see our story going . To me it seems like the last gasp of an old order. It doesnt work. Look at climate change. It comes whether you say it exists or not. 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