Are human beings inherently good or evil . First, my take. Cities across the American South and west are getting pummeled, but new york city seems to have things under control as it begins to open up. So i have to admit, im excited. I know it will be a different city for a while with many aspects kurt vacurtailed. Its felt like an empty stage set. Now lingering outside the cafes and bars, or simply walking on the streets. Despite the mass, the space between tables and limits on people, urban life is coming back. I know, a lot of people say this would be the death nell, that people have discovered they dont know to leave in cramped quarters. Maybe theyre right, but historically theyve been wrong. In the 14th century, the bubonic plague hit florence hard, killing more than half the citys population, by some estimates. Bocaccio decameron gave advice flee the city, isolate with a few friends, and gather in the evenings to eat, drink and tell interesting stories their verse of netflix. Yes it was after that that they launched the ren sauce. In 1793, philadelphia was the leading met secretary of state Thomas Jefferson lived in the outside, and continued to commute to work. He later wrote, this disease, like most evils are the means of producing some good. The yellow fever will discourage the growth of great cities in our nation. It didnt quite work out that way. Critics say this time its different. New technologies make it easy for people to work from home, the dangers of the disease will keep them away. Theres some truth to this, but for perspective its worth reading triumph of the city. He points out u. S. Cities faced a bleak future in the 1970s. Globalization had killed off a great many manufacturings industries and allows people to live farther from the office. Phone service had become cheap and easy, and add race riots, crime and mismanagement, you have a molotov cocktail, yet cities came back. From finance to consulting to healthcase, despite the rise of fax machines, email and videoconferences videoconferences, cities redeveloped themselves. Glazer notes people gained huge advantages by being close to the action, meeting new people, learning daytoday from mentors, and comparing notes, much of which happens accidentally. Its true the coronavirus has presented new challenges, but density is not the problem its made out to be. Manhattan, the densest part of new york city has a lower rate of infection that is any of the other boroughs. Across the u. S. , per capita rates are highest in some of the least densely populated regions. If you look abroad, massive cities have handled the virus stunningly well. Tie pay, hong kong and singapore are dense cities, and yet the covid19 deaths have been amazing low. They have succeeded in this difficult situation, because perhaps as a consequence of the sars epidemic, they were prepared. They invested in health care and hygiene. They reacted to the virus early, aggressively and intelligently, now reaping the rewards. One rule seems clear bad leadership, misguided policies can sink a city, so if they founder this time its not because of the pandemic and technology, but for the same reasons that countries and cities have failed throughout history bad government. Go to cnn. Com fareed for a link to my the Washington Post column, and lets get started. On july 5th, 1852, the escaped slave Frederick Douglass told a crowd in rochester, this fourth of july is yours, not mine. You may rejoice, i must mourn. He went on what to the american slave is your fourth of july . I answer a day that reveals to him, more than all other days of the year, the growth injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. Here we are, 168 years later, and this july 4th weekend, Many Americans are wondering whether to celebrate or chastise their country . Lets look at the extraordinary six weeks since the death of george floyd. With two historians, the author of the hemmings of monticello. And professor reed, let me ask you, are you hopesful this time its different, or that this time its different than some of the past cases . When you look back at history, do you feel theres been many moments where theres a kind of attempt to reckon with the past, and then it dissipates . Well, yes, there have been those moments. Im hopeful about this moment, youre absolutely right, theres Something Different about this. Polls show that large numbers of americans think there should be some reckoning, some sort of changes in attitude about policing, about voters suppression, all of those things. Im a hopeful person generally. I have to be, but i do know that unless concrete actions are, you know, follow that hope, follow the starts that have been made, we will fall back into the problems that weve seen for so many years. Tim, what strikes me is theres not been a white backlash to many of the things that have happened. I measure that in one simple way. I think its fair to say that President Trump tried to court such a backlash, yet he poll numbers have fallen. The reason joy joy is leading so significantly is not increased support among minorities, but decreased supports among whites. Every since Richard Nixon, there has been a strategy, largely employed by republicans, to court this white backlash. Why do you think its not working this time . Every so often candor enters into the president s tweets. He just recently tweeted lone warrior. That really describes at the moment his efforts, as you said, to court a white backlash. President obama, when he spoke not too long ago, was talking about the diversity of the movement, the black lives movement, the movement on the streets in response to the murder of george floyd. He noted how different that was from the 60s. I would also point out to other sides i share with annette a sense of hope. In 2001, the state of mississippi had a referendum on what to do with the flag. Two thirds of those participated voted to keep the flag. The state of mississippi just removed the flag without the kind of demonstrations and backlash that certainly would have happened if a governor had done that in 2001, but the people of mississippi, the why people, there werent enough to respond and oppose it. The second big change, after charleston, after the murder of nine africanamericans in that church by White Supremacists there were calls to remove the names of confederate general on the ten bases that had those names. The u. S. Army opposed making those changes. Well, in june, after the Lafayette Square fiasco, the u. S. Military made clear in a number of very powerful ways that enough was enough, and there is a debate now, but republicans and democrats are arguing to change those names. Those are just two examples of what i think is a transformational change in the conversation of this country. Annette, let me ask you about one area where it seems like were talking past each other. This sense, i think, that people want a much broader reckoning about american history, and there are there is a response which i here sometimes not said as much publicly, people say, well, weve come a long way, were not as racist as we were. It feels like these are two separate conversations, i would argue, at least, yes, of course theres a lot of progress the larger of question has this country rockened with the past and more, do you think that they have no, we have not. We have certainly acknowledged it, but i think the events have told what youre talking about has been a feature of our society for a very, very long time. I think a number of americans looking at the video of george floyd being killed in the moment of pandemic when were all feeling very, very vulnerable, had an opportunity to consider these matters in ways practices they had not before, but theres no doubt weve been talking past each other. That if there was a problem, it was a problem with black culture, problem with black families, sort of blaming the victim in this situation. I do think that were beginning to have this discussion, but it hasnt been this is not something that weve been engaged in in an effective way up to this moment. I will say that i think a talk about the monuments, so forth, all of those things are important, but not as important as the things that got us here when we started thinking about the nature of policing. Thats a much tougher thing than bringing down a statue or changing the name of a school, whatever. All right. Stay with us. When we come back, im going to ask annette gordonreed, what to do about the jefferson mem yay. She wrote a Pulitzer Prize with her book. Robinhood believes now is the time to do money. Without the commission fees. So, you can start investing today wherever you are even hanging with your dog. So, what are you waiting for . Download now and get your first stock on us. Robinhood. And get way more. Ith wso you can bring yours vision to life and save in more ways than one. For small prices, you can build big dreams. Spend less, get way more. Shop everything home at wayfair today. Are you currently using a whitening toothpaste, but not seeing results . Try crest 3d whitestrips. Its enamelsafe formula lifts and removes stains to provide 100 noticeably whiter teeth or your money back. Try crest 3d whitestrips. Neuriva has clinically proven oingredients that fuel five, indicators of brain performanc memory, focus, accuracy, learning, and concentration. Try our new gummies for 30 days and see the difference. We are back with the eminent historians annette gordonreed and jeff nanaftali. What should we do about jefferson . Well, i think ive made the distinct a number of times when people have asked me about the founding generation and confederates. I think the founding generation created america. If you think thats a good thing, its worth commemorating. Not necessarily celebrating, but commemorating the achievements. The jefferson memorial, for example, the replica, with the statue in the middle, is in my view an excellent place to explain the good things he did. The memorial was put up with the words along he wall, but also a section to talk about the fact he was a slave owner, to talk about what that meant in the country and his attitudes about race, all those things as well. I think with the founderfounders eve founderfounders ever jefferson, washington and others its a way to commemorate them but tell the truth about their lives. I think commemorate people for the achievements they had despite their having been slave owners, unlike confederate general, who were commemorated presumably for mutinying against the United States in order to support slavery. What do we do about wood row wilson . Princeton just renamed the school. It seemed like he was honored for things that did not have anything to do with the racist views, so how do we think about that . I think wilson is a have i interesting case. He was being honored for his views about international engagement, international peace, international organizations. I learned some time ago, thanks to my students, how wood row wilson had not appliied his 14 points equally to all the nations struggling at the time of the versailles treaty. And his merely racist with the recranes koreans who wanted to be liberated. His racism played a role. Thats why ive never been comfortable with Woodrow Wilson being a hero. Other president s in way they have benefited the country and the ways theyre not permeated by the pinched racist views, then you have a moment where youre juggling. Well, we should remember them for this as opposed to that. Even Richard Nixon who engaged in real crimes still deserve credit to the opening of china. What do you think about jefferson, who wanted the league of nations, and yet resegreg e resegregated the federal democracy in an act of real overt racism. Well, he was a terrible person. As for princeton, he made it from a sleepy college to something that we think of today as a great university, and he was a president of the United States, the league of nations, all those things that we honor, but i think it made sense to take his name off the school for Public Policies, because the Public Policies were, as you said, he initiated Public Policies, sort of went backwards, resegregated institutions. So i understand now wanting to be associated with him in that way. Is it healthy, tim, to have having this debate. Theres a lot of americans who feel, does this mean we dont honor our country . We dont celebrate our country . Is it a sign of weakness or a sign of strength . Its a sign of strength. I think of our country as struggling between the realities of 1619, and the aseparational qualities of the enlightenment. Even though jefferson didnt live the ideas he put forward, its the struggle with the aspiration of our qualities, that has led toward the bending of our justice that dr. King jr. And later barack obama talked about. If you talk about how were aspiring to those values, and talk about how each generation has fallen short, i think thats very healthy. In a sense youre confirming the center ideas of the country. The founders didnt achieve those ideas, but the found respect didnt put a Glass Ceiling forever on them. Each of our generations has been chipping away, using the powers of the principles as our tools. I think its a sign of hope and a healthy democracy to be having this conversation. Annette, tim, a fascinating conversation. Thank you both for joining me. Thank you for asking. Thank you. Japan has had 20,000 covid cases total since it recorded the first infection in january. This weeks the United States started hitting more than double that number in the new cases every day. How do two nations have such a different experience with the same disease . Stanfords Francis Fukiyama has the answer. Crafting lasting fragrances begins in nature. Air wick scented oils are infused with natural essential oils for fragrance day after day,up to 60 days air wick scented oils. Connect to nature. Day trips are better than daydreams. Experience the adventure of a bigger world, in a highly capable lexus suv. Visit your local lexus dealer, in person or online, for exceptional offers, at the golden opportunity sales event. Experience amazing at your lexus dealer. Its at the core of who we are. The freedom to live without fear. To jog where we please. To wear a hoodie. The freedom to breathe. Before we celebrate the freedom most americans have, we must fight for the freedom all americans deserve. Because all lives cant matter, until black lives matter. We waste up to 20 gallons of water every time we prerinse lets skip the rinse. New finish quantum with activeblu technology, designed to clean without prerinsing. Switch to finish and skip the rinse to save water. As the covid19 pandemic engulfed the globe, scientists and politicians have scrambled to learn about how to combat the spread. So were authoritarian countries line china better equipment . Can democracies slow the spread of virus with the free flow of information . Or was a female laterer, like in new zealand, the key to success . There was a recent article titled the pandemic and the political order. Hes the director of Stanford Center of democracy, and development of the rule of law. Francis fukuyama, welcome. Thank you. What is your answer . I think it doesnt correlate at all whether youre a democracy or ought authoritarian democracy, because youll see good and bad performers in both categories. The real characters are different and they can be shared. One is obviously you need good state capacity. By that, Public Health system, adequate doctors, nurses, the people who run hospitals and organize the system as a whole, but i think the more intangible factor is a matter of trust. Peo the government, and if they dont trust their fellow citizens,ing theyre not going to comply with shutdown orders. Theyre not going to take the necessary protective measures, which can be quite burdensome, which we have seen from being indoors the last three months. Sometimes its a democracy that has that, south korea, taiwan or germany. Sometimes an authoritarian government has that. I think that would be china at the moment. But then theres democracies that havent done so with you and auto cracies that havent done so well. You wrote a book about public trust. What im intrigued by is, where does it come from . You look at a place like hong kong, which i was fascinated by. Even though there are protests about the government and protests about the legitimacy of the government. There was still a social trust which said when the government says wear a mask, you wear a mask. When the government tells you how do you describe that . I think theres two different sources. One is deeply historical. In the United States we have a political culture that really does not trust government. The flag with the rattlesnake that said dont tread on me this goes back to the 18th century where americans dont trust the government. Theres a more proximate cause that has to do with polarization. In my view the degree of polarization we have in the u. S. Is the single biggest weak why is of a country as a society. It means citizens dont trust one another, they also dont trust the government, below its a blue state governor in control or someone like President Trump that is running the federal government. Thats whats hobbled the United States to have the ability to respond acwattly. What you fit is the United States is the only country, i think in which the response to covid has been politicized in the sense that wearing a mask is a political statement. Observing social distance is a political statement. I have struggled to look in other countries, and you dont find it in a similar way. I wonder if theres a similarity like the response of Climate Change is highly polarized and politicized where almost nowhere, even in australia, isnt. Thats true, and its an unfortunate thing about the u. S. , but i think theres a Common Thread not between democracy and poor response, but between populist leaders and poor responses. For example, in addition to President Trump youve got Jair Bolsonaro in brazil and obredor. I think theyre quickly racing to the top of bad responses as a result of their polarization. How would you describe some of the successful countries in asia in terms of the key to their success . Is it some kinds of a c concern. Theres a respect for bureaucracy, education and experti expertise. In south korea, for example, the management was delegated to a Health Professional who was running their centers for disease control. She became the singlemost trusted person because of her competent. So theres a kind of, i think, a cultural inclination in that part much the world to trust people in government, to think they know what theyre doing because theyre educated and have expertise. Obviously thats not something that applies in many other parts of the world. Finally, when you look at the democracies and dictatorsships, as you said, there isnt a clear correlation. Theres good and bad on both sides, but when people look at the u. S. And china, generally they would feel, despite a bad start, china has handled it better than the u. S. Does that matter in a geopolitical sense . You unfortunately matters. People arent looking statistically at democracies and authoritarian governments as a whole. Theyre looking at that one comparison. I would say its worse than what you just said. The United States look so bad, were not even out of our first wave, and i think its going to hurt americas standing. I think the United States has an opportunity to correct this. The one important check is an electoral check. Well reach that point in november. Its not an unrecoverable situation, but i do think that right now the United States looks like its a country in decline and a lot of people are taking notice of that. Frank fukuyama, always a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you, fareed. Next, the world may seem dark, but my next guest humans are hardwired for kinds in. A hopeful history of humankind, when we come back. Learning, a. Try our new gummies for 30 days and see the difference. For spending a perfectly reasonable amount of time on the couch with tacos from grubhub . Grubhubs gonna reward you for that with a 5 off perk. doorbell rings [crowd] grubhub fireworks exploding hey its me, lily from at t. Im back working from home and here to help. Hey lily, im hearing a lot about 5g. Should i be getting excited . Depends. Are you gonna want faster speeds . I will. More reliability . Oh, also yes. Better response times . Definitely. Are you gonna be making sourdough bread . Oh, is that 5g related . No, just like why is everyone making sourdough now. But yes, youre gonna want 5g. At t is building 5g on americas best network. Visit att. Com to learn more. Chances are you have some qhere are a couple answers. Lysol disinfectant spray and lysol disinfecting wipes together can be used on over 100 surfaces. And kill up to 99. 9 of germs. Lysol. What it takes to protect. Indeed midst of the covid crisis, humanity issues continue unabated. Terror continues, murders and shootings actually up in some American Cities despite lockdowns. The stayathome orders are thought to have caused incidence of Domestic Violence to spike. Thats why i want to hear from the author of humankind, a hopeful history. Pleasure to have you on, rut gere. Let me begin about what youre arguing against in this book, which is what you call the thin veneer. Theres when theres a small change in our circumstances or were in the midst of a crisis, we review our true selves, we start looting and plundering. You see it with the notion of sinners, and the enlightenment philosopher, that people are just selfish, and i think its fundamentally wrong. So what is the strongest evidence . We look at what happens after natural studies. What happened in 2005 after katrina, after new orleans was flooded. We all still remember, you know, what was in the press back then. Again, the stories of murders and rapes, looting, plundering, but we actually know from sociology, that what really happens also after katrina, but every single time after a earthquake or tsunami, people pull together, from the left or right, rich, young, poor, old, we have case studies that prove this over and over again, so i advise people to look less at the news, because that often makes you cynical, zoom out a bit and look at what science tells you. The iconic explanation for the thin veneer of society, is the lord of the flies. Young boys abandoned on the island and it turned into a pretty savage, all against all, they band into groups. You have Something Interesting to say about a reallife version of the lord of the flies. Yes, i remember reading the lord of the flies when i was 16 or 17, and feeling quite depressed. I wondered, has it ever happened . Can i find one case in all of World History where real kids, shipwrecked on a real island, what would actually happen . It turns out, yes, it did happen. A long time ago, 50 years ago in 1966, there were six kids from tonga, an island group in the pacific. They were students of an anglican boarding school. They said were going on an adventure, stealing a boat. They drifted for eight dade in a storm, shipwrecked on this island, and survived for 15 months. I managed to track them down, actually, and it turns out theyre still the best of friend, because thats how they survived, by staying friends. The real lord of the flies is the exact opposite. You do have the nazis, auschwitz, world war i, the barria of isis, the pol pot. How do you square all of that with your cheerful history of human beings essential goodness . I wouldnt say that im arguing that people are naturally good. I think we have evolved to be friendly, which is different. This is what biologists are arguing. They talk about survival of 9 friendliest. For millennia, it was the friendliest who had the most kids, so the biggest chance of passing on genes to the next generation. Its important to emphasize theres a dark side to this friendlyness. So obvious we do the most awful things in the name of comradeship and we dont want to let down our own group. I arrive at a paradoxical thought. We are shaped by evolution to work together, but cooperation sometimes leads to creating horrible things. So i want to connect this to the present. The do batebates of defurnishen, in this attitude that human beings are nasty, even we let up even slightly, all hell will break loose . Or are we assuming too much nastiness, and we could take our foot off the accelerator or the brake, depending on how you make the metaphor work. What you assume ouch people is what you get out of. If you assume people are just deep down selfish and savages, your schools and workplaces, the way your police will operate. Youll create a lot of bad things. If you turn it around, also in policing, i think he can move to a very different kind of society. In the book i look at the criminal Justice System they have in norway, which is in almost every single way the opposite of what the u. S. Has. On the one hand they very powerful community policing, where the Police Officers is a social worker, that really tries to establish trust in the community, and then the prisons, they are like they very strange almost like holiday resorts, where inmates have the freedom to make music, with their own studio and label, which is called criminal records. I thought this is crazy, this is nuts. They have lost it, but then you look at the evidence, you look at the recidivism rates, for example, the chance that someone will commit a crime once they get out, and nowhere as low as in norway. The u. S. Could learn quite a bit from other countries here. All right. You have given us a lot to thing about, certainly a lot to hope for. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. We will be back in a moment. Dont forget, if you miss a show, look for a link to my podcast. It would be for me to discover all of these things that i found through ancestry. I discovered my great aunt ruth signed up as a nursing cadet for world war ii. You see this scannedin, handwritten document. The most striking detail is her age. She was only 17. Knowing that she saw this thing happening and was brave enough to get involved and do something that was eye opening. Find an honor your ancestors who served in world war ii. Their stories live on at ancestry. 9. 95 . No way. . Who served in world war ii. 9. 95 . Thats impossible. Hi, im jonathan, a manager here at Colonial Penn Life Insurance company, to tell you it is possible. If youre age 50 to 85, you can get Life Insurance with options starting at just 9. 95 a month. Okay, jonathan, im listening. Tell me more. Just 9. 95 a month for Colonial Penns number one most popular whole Life Insurance plan. There are no Health Questions to answer and there are no medical exams to take. Your acceptance is guaranteed. Guaranteed acceptance . I like guarantees. Keep going. And with this plan, your rate is locked in for your lifetime, so it will never go up. Sounds good to me, but at my age, i need the security of knowing it wont get cancelled as i get older. This is Lifetime Coverage as long as you pay your premiums. It can never be cancelled, call now for free information. Youll also get this free beneficiary planner. Use this valuable guide to record your Important Information and give helpful direction about your final wishes to your loved ones. And its yours free. Its our way of saying thank you just for calling. So call now. Yeah, sure thing. Whats this . Its bud light seltzer mango. Sip initiated. Lets show we like it. Commencing happy face. Oh too much. Too much. Bud light seltzer. Available for delivery. And the hidden smiles. The foggy glasses, and the sore ears. The determined looks, and the muffled laughs. A simple piece of fabric makes a big statement i care. Lets all do our part to slow the spread. Wear a mask. Learn more at covid19. Ca. Gov. My book of the week is humankind. This is one of those books that tries to make you see the world and all of history in a different light and it mostly succeeds. Whether you agree with it or find ourself arguing with it and now for the last look. Julys a month that celebrates democracy and liberty. From america to frances coming up soon, but this july we should really note something else. The erosion of democracy. One more grim consequence of covid. As Larry Diamond noted recently, democracies were already weakening over the last decade, the pandemic pshed open the door for an autocratic power grab and many leaders jumped at the opportunity, all in the name of fighting the disease, of course. If the fragile transition is under threat. The parliament postponed that nations first free and Fair Election and then extended the prime ministers term without inputt from opposition parties and ma lay yeah, the new government effectively closed due to covid19 and ousted the corrupt leaders returned to positions of power while the opposition is shut out. Perhaps most notably, hungarys populist leader was given rule by decree in mashlg and observers worried that the extraordinary powers are here to stay. The law also allowed officials to punish the publication of what they determined was fake covid news with jail time. In fact, data from the International Center for not for profit law found that pandemic responses in 40 countries curtailed Free Expression in this way. From india and indonesia to nepal and nicaragua, governments cracked down on critics in the name of supposedly fighting misinformation. Now, tunisia took the opposite approach, the cabinet promising public funds to independent media to stay afloat and if you look closely the pandemic has actually strengthened peoples desires for democracy. South koreas recently socially distant vote had the countrys highest turnout in almost 30 years. Malawis vote, a rerun, also ran smoothly bringing to power the opposition leader. And the Worlds Largest ever civil rights protests showed that Civic Engagement is alive and well, even the lockdown protests indicate the health of free assembly. In germany, the Constitutional Court overturned a ban on demonstrations ruling that pandemic or not the people had a right to protest. And that countrys still managed to bring down infection rates quickly and so far avoided any second wave and that is the ultimate irony of these political maneuvers. Democracies from south korea to germany have shown themselves to be perfectly capable of handling this disease without any new emergency powers. And at that very moment demagogues are using this very pandemic to destroy democracy. Thanks to all of you for being part of the program this week. Ill see you next week. And the best routines in life did, do and always will make time. For enjoying yourself. Do and always will make time. Neuriva has clinically proven oingredients that fuel five, indicators of brain performanc memory, focus, accuracy, learning, and concentration. Try our new gummies for 30 days and see the difference. Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me this sun. Im fredericka whitfield. We have staggering new numbers of this epidemic. Florida just reporting nearly 10,000 more cases today and thats on top of yesterdays huge numbers which set a single day record for all states with more than 11,400 new infections con if you remembered on saturday. Arizona and texas seeing massive spikes leading officials to accuse the states of reopening too early but everyone as we see cases surge President Trump is downplaying concerns telling a
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