this is "gps", the global public square. welcome to all you in the united states and around the world. i'm bianna golodryga filling in for fareed zakaria today and we're coming live from new york. today on the program, i have an interview with iran's foreign minis minister who warned that if attacks continue, america will not be spared. i asked him how close the middle east must be to a much wider war and what iran's role was in the october 7th attack into and how are the israeli people feeling as the country launched the second stage of war. i'm ask yonit levi. >> and then sam bankman fried was a subject of a ton of bus and then it all collapsed. this week he took the stand in his federal fraud trial, michael lewis was by bankman's side to witness his rise and fall and tells fareed the fascinating tale. yesterday, israel's prime minister benjamin netanyahu called it the second independence war and warned it will be long. the president of the international committee of the red cross has called the humanitarian situation in gaza a catastrophic failing that the world must not tolerate. sara sidner joins me live from tel aviv with the latest. what more are you learning about this expanded operation into gaza? >> reporter: look, we heard from the prime minister as you mentioned there. and he really tried to frame thises in an existent shall threat to the survival of israel. and you're seeing not a huge ground invasion, but soldiers are in gaza as we speak. we've seen the volley of air strikes that have been going on there and in gaza with devastating effect. we have also seen plenty of rockets that have come over. they come over daily, really. tel aviv is not used to getting this number of rockets or rockets at all. it is more rare here than it is along the border in places like ashkelon and ashdod and sderot. but it is a regular occurrence that rockets fly over tel aviv. and the thing that they have is the iron dome that knocks those out. but we've been seeing an enormous amount of fire power inside of gaza and the perimeter as tank fire, we're hearing from our reporters there, that there are small arms fire going off over the past 24 hours and of course those air strikes which is causing certainly a deaftation there in gaza and a lot of death including a lot of civilians, men and women and children and babies, but here in israel there is a big call by those who have hostages still in gaza. they are demanding to have some answers, to know exactly whether or not this new phase of the war is going to put their loved ones there in danger. they met with the prime minister and defense minister gallant and demanded that their hostages, that their family members be put as a priority. and they were promised that they were a priority to the israeli government. but since then, we have seen so many strikes. there is a lot of fear on the part of those with family members that are in gaza in those tunnels that they just will not be able to make it out alive if this continues the way it does before a negotiation is able to get them out, e just he actual jake tapper that the release of the hostages is a top priority for u.s. officials as well. let me ask you about the situation in gaza specifically. do we know if any additional humanitarian aid has been able to get in? >> reporter: it is such a minuscule amount. normally you have somewhing in and that is on a regular day. that is on -- before any war is going on. and they've only been able to get a few dozen trucks there over a week's time. and so, you are really seeing this just enormous humanitarian catastrophe, not just from the munitions being used on gaza, by israel, but also because the blockade and not being able to get in the aid and there is not enough food or water. it is a situation where the civilians are suffering and it gets greater every day. >> thank you. well on thursday night u.s. officials announced that american f-16s had struck weapons and ammunitions storage areas in syria. these facilities were used by the islamic revolutionary guard corp and affiliated groups. a response to attacks on iraq and syria since the war began. earlier that iran's foreign minister threatened the u.s. in a speech at the u.n., saying america won't be spared from the war if america continued. i sat down to ask him about that threat but i began the interview with what began this war in the first place, the october 7th hamas attack. >> mr. foreign minister, thank you for taking the time. let me start by asking, you did iran play any role in the october 7th hamas attack on israel? >> translator: you know, what happened on 7 october in the occupied territories of palestinian, it was a decision that was made by the palestinians alone. and since the country was occupied, the thought that it was a natural right to defend their own territories. to carry out the operation. that was a total palestinian operation and decision. >> well "the new york times" and the "wall street journal" say their sources from both hamas and the irgc tell them that iran was directly connected to the attack. >> translator: i think this is totally baseless claim and allegation. naturally we do support palestinian, we always had political media and international support for palestine. we have never denied this. this is the truth. but in relation to this operation called the al akas, and there was no connection between iran and this hamas operation. not my government, no part of my country know what they did. considering the international law, they did it in defending the occupied territories and they want to retake their territories. and to liberate palestine from occupation and to free it. we believe that acocording to te international law, they did it in defending themselves. >> mr. foreign minister, you know what happened at that attack. babies an the elderly, women, children were murdered. they were tortured. that was part of the mission. how can you justify that as being legal under international law? no one else has. >> translator: first of all, from the 8th of october up until now, in an -- in a vengeful operation the regime is continuously day and night targeting non-military areas both in gaza and the west bank. bombarding them. even using first response several times. more than 7,000 women, children and civilians have been killed. >> i do want to go back to the brutality in this attack perpetrated by hamas. because it horrified the world. and yet your office, the day after, said this, quote, the resistance has so far achieved brilliant victories during this operation. and this is a bright spot in the history of the palestinian people's struggle against the zionist. you called the attack a historic victory. how on earth you could call the butchering of innocent civilians a bright spot? >> translator: let me ask you a question. has israel occupied palestine or the other way around? the palestinians occupying israel. which one is the occupier? in response to occupation, 75 years of humiliation. >> but you know israel has not been in gaza for many years. hamas has controlled gaza. >> translator: in a large number of territories, belonging to palestinians, israel has been there for years. they are demolitioning the houses of the palestinians and they are expanding the settlements. to have killed thousands of palestinians, made them homeless, this is continuous genocide and the crime is going on. what happened was a natural response to about 75 years of crimes, genocide and occupation. >> we could go back and talk about 75 years but i'm talking about this attack which per s-- which precipitated -- >> i'm asking you specific, for the prevalent and extensive attacks against gaza, and killing 7,000 women and children, why are you not seeing both sides? the occupying side. yes, you know, we don't approve of the killing of the civilians. >> so you condemn that? >> translator: i have met with the leader of hamas in qatar. i asked him, he explained to me why they did what they did. he said that we wanted to retake our occupied territories. they explain to me that. in the past month, nat annia was involved in actions and desecrated the mosque and even disrespected the christians. and also jewish settlements until the west bank. for 16 years gaza is a small area, is under total human blockade. when you treat a nation like this, they believe it is their right to defend their motherland. you see, i would like to emphasize we are opposed to the killing, killing of the civilians. the political leader of hamas told me that we stand ready to -- to battle the militariy israelis for a long time. but the civilians should be left out. >> next on "gps," i asked the iranian morn finnister to his threat to the united states where he said that america won't be spared if the war continues. we'll be back in a moment. as the war rages on if gaza, u.s. officials are warning of a growing escalation in the wider region. israel is trading heavy fire on the lebanese border and american forces are responded to iraq and syria. these groups are part of what iran called the axis of resistance. i asked amir ab dolla about this. i want to quote what you said to our viewers, i say to the american stateman, i warn, if genocide in gaza continues, they will not be spared from this fire. is that a threat? is iran prepared really to be to war against the united states? >> translator: we don't want this war to spread out. >> with all due respect, your actions don't match your words. you say your playing a constructive war but groups have tarlged u.s. forces or based in the region at least 15 times since october 17th, injuring 20 u.s. military personnel, a u.s. carrier strike group shot do you know 15 drones and four cruise missiles from iran backed houthi militants in yemen that was aimed toward israel. president biden said this yesterday -- >> translator: any attack that is carried out in the region and if the u.s. interests are targeted by any group, you know linking it to the republic of iran without offering any piece of proof is totally wrong. you see, two weeks ago i was in iraq, also in syria and lebanon, i could see up close and personal that the people of the region, they are very sensitive about the developments in the palestine. they are angry. they are not receiving orders from us. they act according to their own interests. also, what happened, what was carry the out by hamas, it was totally palestinian. they decided to take responsibility for that. >> and you keep saying that and yet you continue to weigh in on this decision. iran wasn't attacked and iran wasn't a party to this current crisis. so why are you involved? >> translator: we are not involved. why is the u.s. so involved? >> the u.s. is protecting an ali that was attack ed and provoked >> translator: we are living there. but the u.s. is not. from thousands of kilometers, it is a way. they are interfering in all aspects of our region. you should ask the u.s. government what are you doing in iraq? has the syrian government invited you to have your military based there? ask them. what are you doing behind netanyahu in a war that -- in which 7,000 palestinian women and children have been killed. we do care about national security in our region. but there are groups in the region and they do things and they're responsible for their actions. >> your regional neighbors have moved on, the u.s. have brokered normization between muslim countries. the biden white house is process of brokering between israel and saudi arabia when the hamas attack took place. why does the prospect of that normalization frighten iran so much? >> translator: you see, those countries have that normalized ties with the israeli regime, what they did was think perfunctory, not substantive. on the 7th of october, in the afternoon, the country in which israel has embassies, it is what happened to their embassies, by the people in those countries. you know, this is the source of evil. you see israel, it is just a source of insecurity. they have assassinated our nuclear scientists in our streets. they don't care about the security of the region. they just want to foment insecurity. because israel exists and its longevity to tied to insecurity. today, if the war in gaza is ended, there is no doubt that in less than 24 hours this government will fall, the netanyahu government. >> that is what happens in a democracy. up next on "gps," how the war is playing out is a mong the israeli public. i'm speak to one of the most prominent tv anchors, yonit levi. that is next. >> fareeeed zakaria a gps brbroo you by -- - i wanted to get a sense of the sentiment on the ground in israel just three weeks and a day after the hamas attack and very early in the second stage of war which netanyahu promised would be long and difficult. so i asked yonit levi to join me. she's one of israel's move recognized people, a top anchor who joins us from her news channel 12. thank you for taking time to join us today. we are now two days into what prime minister netanyahu described as the next phase of this operation. he said that he has the full backing of the government going into this stage. how are the israeli people feeling about it now? >> well, i mean, bianna, as you mentioned, it has been three weeks and a day. the ground incursion, the idf ground incursion into gaza has started and this is a very complicated thing to achieve. first because there are 230 hostages, israeli hostages held by hamas in gaza. the red cross hasn't seem them and their families don't know their condition. so the israeli wants and think that is a tactic to pressure hamos to a deal to release the hostages and the bigger goal or the biggest goal by thei israel government is to topple hamas and the abilities to do this again. i think it is important to say that israelis are still very much in this. they are reeling from the worst terror attack that they have ever suffered. every day more and more information is coming out. i've just spoken to sources telling me there is still 100 israeli bodies that haven't been identified. so let that sink in for what that means and what has been done to these people before death or after. this is where we are. we are -- the whole public is watching this very, very closely, concerned about the hostages. and also about what the next steps of these -- this war will look like? >> and it comes as there is continued criticism of prime minister netanyahu. not just in how he's handled the aftermath of the october 7th attack and not to emention that he's taken some heat for blaming intel officials which he's had to apologize for in the last few hours but there is frustration in how he's handling the hostage situation as well. so given all of that, is there faith that his government can orchestrate this next phase of the operation in the weeks and months ahead successfully? >> well, look, i mean, ideally this situation would be where everyone would work together and there would be solidarity and unity among everyone. i think we've seen that in the israeli society over the past three weeks. we need to mention that this war that has been forced upon us happened when israeli society was already very divided over the judicial overhaul and the protests over the last couple of months. so on the one land, you have the people reminding netanyahu that he was warned by his security officials that our enemies might see this as a moment to strike israel because of what they perceive as weakness, and his supporters in a tweet he has since retracted and say i did not have a specific alert 20 to what hamas wabbed to do on october 7th. when this war is over and the arguments who knew what and what kind of policy vis-a-vis hamas was the prominent policy by the government, but again, i think that many in israel kind of feel that this is the moment to try, if they were able to do that, to try to come together because the external threat is bigger than anything else that is happening right now. >> and yonit, in the hours and days following the october 7th attack, i know that israelis were very moved by the compassion and support that was provided by the u.s. president, president biden. he made a trip to the region as well. and to meet with leadership there. and i know his popularity soared. i wondering if there is concern now given the humanitarian crisis that is ounfolding in gaa and the continued pressure for a cease-fire or halt in operations. if there is a concern that perhaps some of that would be unconditional support from the u.s. may fade at some point? >> well, first of all, i must tell you that, i mean, the support, i think no one is more highly supportive of the world leader than more president biden who came here and showed not only all of the empathy, but all of the support that the united states could muster in and israeli felt like he got us, he understood how devastating this massacre was and how israelis feel. it is not only by the way, that the support of aircraft carriers or anything like that. there are military experts and generals with guidance of how do you fight this kind of war against terror in a densely populated area. there are experienced american generals in fallujah or mosul or something like that. so there might be a difference between how patient the biden administration is and how patient the rest of the world is to what we are seeing in gaza. i think that what israeli is feeling, from the israeli point of view, again, the war has moved on quite quickly from showing very, very brief empathy to what we are still going through to in many cases even blaming israel for what has happened. and i think that many israelis feel like their case isn't clear enough, hasn't been clear enough for years. but how do you wage this war against a organization that is so cynical that started by murdering your own children and hides under their population not caring if they are hurt. so it is a difficult thing to maneuver and i think israeli feel like the stopwatch has begun to watch the course and are kind of angers that there is a stopwatch to begin with because they feel like they have been through something that should never happen again and anyone who knows jewish history knows those words are imbued with a lot of meaning and tragedy. >> and sometimes we forget that journalists are human as well and you've been working 24/7 over the past three weeks so i thank you for your hard work and i hope you've been taking care of yourself and i've been following your coverage throughout all of this and thank you so much for your insight and for joining us today. >> thank you. well up next on gps, fareed will be back with the author michael lewis. he has a new book out about sam bankman-fried who took the stand in his own defenense in a a fra trtrial. we'll be b back in jusust a mom. this week, sam bankman-fried took the stand at his criminal trial in lower manhattan. the department of justice accuses him of orchestrating one of the biggest financial frauds in recent history. the 31-year-old founder of the cryptocurrency exchange ftx has pleaded not guilty to sen charges so what should we make of his rise and dramatic fall from wall street trader to billionaire entrepreneur, to bankrupt and disgraced ceo. fareed interviewed michael lewis, "going infinite". >> pleasure to be here, fareed. >> let me ask you something to begin with. after doing all of this, did you figure out what is cryptocurrency? and why does it exist? [ laughter ] >> well, so, this is a very good question. to start with, what is curious about the story is you don't really need to know. and he didn't need to know. he saw it, and cryptocurrency is in the eye of the >> and he alm bloomberg interview. >> and it is an inefficient market and it doesn't matter if it is cryptocurrency, and it is one way one place and another place and he didn't care about it. so, to answer your question, before i started this book, i used to kind of kick around crypto and think is there a story here and it always struck me, two things struck me. it always felt like a solution in search of a problem. >> exactly. >> the first pitch it was going to replace the dollar. and it is not going to replace the dollar. it is not a better means of exchange. second pitch, it was like an uncorrelated asset. it doesn't move around with everything else, but it does. and a year and a half ago the market value of crypto was $3 trillion. and so for me, you asked me like, what is interesting to see about crypto, what drew you in to write about it, it was a social consequences of that it was not the crypto itself, what happened when you create $3 trillion of wealth and distribute it unequally and some people appear out of nowhere and have huge sums of money. >> so let's get to sam bankman-fried. so do you think his interest was the same as yours, there is this exploding market what is going on? because a lot of the other guys, steve jobs and bill gates. >> their interested in the tech technology. >> right. >> it seems that sam bankman-fried was fundamentally interested in the money. >> and not in the technology. his interest is the interest of a wall street trader, he's working at james street, who is the high frequency trading fork firm that is setting markets and the markets for stocks and in these trades he's doing, it is pennies that they're making on the trades. the margins are a fractions of a percent and he looked at this other market that is a $3 trillion market and you could buy bitcoin for $800 in the united states and sell it in japan and you don't see this in financial markets. so his interest was that. a high frequency trading into crypto and that is the first to do it. the technology didn't interest him at all. >> a lot of the people you written about, what was the genius behind it. what is the genius here? >> it was partly the brazenness of being willing to jump into a market that was shady, rickety, and unpredictable. and apply these tools. i think it is a couple of things. one, he built this business on an oil field. he -- ftx was the krcasino and took a little price out of every transaction and the sum of those slices getting to be a big number. i year after he starts it, he's generating a billion dollars in revenue and $400 million in profits and the question is why people came to his exchange. >> because there were others? >> dozens of others. his was first designed for the institutional trader for the james street and jump trading and goldman sachs of the world and with professional technology and he's come out of that world and the first to build an exchange that suits them. and they follow him into the market and they want places to trade and this looks attractive. but it was an insight that these people are coming and i want to build the casino that these people want to be in. >> it seems to me the heart of it, what he did wrong, what the government alleged he did wrong, seems simple. in finance it was a sacred rule that if you have customers' money, you could use it only for very specified purposes and ones that the customer understands. >> yes. >> and he took that money, $9 billion of it. >> more. >> and moved it. so at the heart is this a simple story of massive misuse of customer -- of third party funds as they call it. >> it is muddied up and made more complicates because of the how and the why of it. but the what everybody agrees. >> even his lawyers aren't disputing that the crypto was unusual, like on the stock exchange, it is custodian. so if you own crypto at ftx, as if it were a bank and they were meant to keep it in cold storage. it was there and customers would have thought that was true and what was true instead was that money was largely inside of sam bankman-fried's private hedge fund alameda research. and where it gets started is the how and the why and the intent and this is where it gets messy. the bulk of the money, how it gets there, in the beginning banks won't open accounts for ftx. because they didn't want to be associated with crypto. and so in order to get your fiat currency, your doctors and your yen and your you're yos, you have to pool there and never gets month offed. what i found, just from the point of view from story telling is that if you took -- if you look at this thing from not just sam's point of view, but point of view of the people who work for him and the people outside of the firm, that you might come out with different answers. a different reader might conclude different things about the intention of sam bankman-fried. i think some of the readers would lynch him. i think others might think this guy is just weird enough so this was maybe more complicated than fur theft. >> stay with us for a moment. i'm going to ask a question, did michael lewis let sam bankman-fried too easily in this book? to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch, it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. and we're back with michael lewis. the author of the new book "going infinite." and you've heard people say a lot of people think you're very soft on this guy. he's a crookster and a fraud and he ran a ponzi scheme and government claims one of the biggest frauds in history. you even, in the way you've been responding, you're quite sympathetic to his point of view. >> i don't think -- if you read the book, the book -- so the book is told in a -- it is a structure to this. it is not me. and using other people to tell the story. what i don't do, and this is intentional, is i just don'tin je -- i don't inject my own judgment. and writing a story for a juror to read. it is not my job to pile on with the moral outrage. it is my job to report what i saw. >> but all of your books, they report. but the times for example said michael lewis knows how to tell happy stories. he doesn't know how to tell tragedies and this is a story of fraud and -- ripping people off and it's -- >> it's so much more than that, though. if you told it as just that, you're missing a lot of fun of the story and the interest of the story and the curiosity of the story. so one of the benefits that i had, my privileged position was i w i was there for a year before it all went bad and figuring out what this story was and hadn't written ai word. and so i could see the rise as well as the fall. and right from the beginning, i didn't think this, certainly this as a sam bankman-fried hero story. but i was anying right from the start, the day i meet sam bankman-fried and he tells me this story how 18 months ago he had $0 and now he has money and the world is organizing itself around this pile of money. i thought of this as social satire. walking social satire. he's lighting up parts world for us to understand because of his peculiar position in the world. >> do you like him as a person? >> oh, yeah, i liked him when i met him and i like him now. but i could tell you, when it all fell apart, it wasn't that shocking to me. there is a foreshadowing of what is going to happen in this company in 2018 when he opens his hedge fund. half of the people he's working with think he's a crook or so sloppy and careless that he might as well be a crook and they quit and money is lost and they don't know where it is and they wind up finding it. this is all part of this characters -- as a crime, this crime doesn't make a whole lot of sense in that his wealth and the wealth of all of the people who worked at this place was tied up in this actually successful business called ftx. there was this cancer on the side of the business, the legacy business, this hedge fund which was wholly unnecessary to the main business and anyone would have shut down the hedge fund the minute this went boom. this is not bernie madoff and he had to do this because this is a necessary ponzi scheme. >> he was making half a billion dollars legally. >> crazy. forbes magazine when they decide he's worth $22.5 billion they're only valuing this successful business. and in a character i'd come to know when it all implodes it a character, it is a really curious character and i'm very much a creature of modern wall street. he thrives in a state of semi chaos. anything that is stable, he would be a horrible accountant. anything table and calculated predictable, he can't function. total chaos isn't good because does he have this aptitude for adapting to change. so figuring out that this is where he excels in this board game lime situations, he turns everything into this because that is where he's relatively trong. and this is a version of it. and he made it more complicated than it needed to be. if you ask me, do i think he's going to jail? yes, i this i he's going to jail. i think it is highly unlikely he doesn't go to jail. the circumstances are just -- it is a shame to notice how interesting the circumstances are. >> michael lewis, aulways a pleasure. >> thanks to bianna golodryga and all of you for being a part of my program this week. i will see you next week. to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built-n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today.
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