Transcripts For CNNW CNN Newsroom With Brooke Baldwin 20150423

Wrong. The president , while announcing a review of the strike, admits sometimes deadly mistakes happen. It is a cruel and bitter truth that in the fog of war generally and our fight against terrorists specifically mistakes sometimes deadly mistakes can occur. As president and as commander in chief, i take full responsibility for all our Counterterrorism Operations including the one that inadvertently took the lives of warren and giovanni. It was not just innocent hostages who were the inadvertent targets of this strike. Turns out the u. S. Did not realize there was another american inside that compound a terrorist. It does not end there. The white house telling us they inadvertently killed another american terrorist in a Central Strike that same month in january that was not actually targeting him. That man, a wellknown mouthpiece for al qaeda, the californiaborn adam gadahn. We want to go live to the white house where jim acosta joins us. Jim, two hostages killed. The american, the italian. Two terrorists killed as well. None of them the targets of these strikes. Did the white house have any answers today, as you were listening to josh earnest there, as to how they got the intelligence so wrong . Jim, i think what theyre saying is they got it so wrong, and they make no bones about it. One thing mentioned during the White House Briefing that just wrapped up in the last several minutes is that hundreds of hours of surveillance were gathered in the assessments that were being made by the counterterrorism officials who ordered this strike prior to that strike being carried out. And so they felt like during that entire period of time when they were looking and watching and seeing what these al qaeda figures were doing at this suspected compound they never saw any signs of these hostages who were being held there in the first strike that was carried out in january. As you said and this was also backed up during the White House Briefing that just wrapped up they were not intentionally going after farouk or gadahn during these strikes. They were targeting what they believed to be with a high degree of certainty to be al qaeda compounds. And it was during that first of those two strikes in january when those two hostages were killed according to u. S. Officials. Now, it was in the proceeding months that followed that they came to this realization, this terrible realization that a terrible mistake had been made. They were starting to get indications back in february jim, that Warren Weinstein was killed in that air strike along with the italian aid worker. It was just in the last several days that the Intelligence Community along with National Security officials at the white house were confident that weinstein was killed. It was at that point that weinsteins family was contacted and given that notification. That is why the president decided to order the disclosure of these operations because essentially they had realized that something terrible had gone wrong. They felt like the president felt like, according to white house officials that, the family deserved edd to know the truth and the public deserved to know the truth. Thanks jim acosta. Were learning it was a final crucial peace of intelligence this month that led the Intelligence Community to conclude with confidence that the american war on weinstein, the italian giovanni lo porto, were killed. They were able to make that conclusion. I want to talk more about this man, adam gadahn, who was also killed in a separate strike. Hes seen here telling muslims in the United States to start killing americans. He was born in california to a jewish family. Hes also infamous for cutting up his u. S. Passport. Cnn has been doing some digging on his background. I want to bring in Nick Robertson. Really a remarkable transformation which we should become more used to. Weve seen this with other groups such as isis. Westerners whether in the europe or u. S. , who convert to islam or were brought up within the faith but then choose the extremist strand of this faith and become terrorists. His case particularly interesting because it came from a jewish background Southern California relatively middle class upbringing. How did he make this transition to become such a prominent member of al qaeda . Well he really kind of got in on the ground floor, if you will. He converted to islam in 1995. Three years later, he goes to pakistan. There hes taken to al qaeda camps in afghanistan. This is three years before the 9 11 attacks. Hes in afghanistan when those attacks take place. He is because he speaks english, a very good mouthpiece for al qaeda. They seemed to sort of realize this in the coming years after that. Theyve gone on the run, left afghanistan, hiding out in pakistan. Adam gadahn starts popping up with these outrageous rants, supporting the september 11th attacks. He then goes on and tells americans to go and get guns and attack people in the United States. His inciting violence in the United States indicted for treason in 2006, fbis mostwanted list in 2007. But he still continues to produce these videos even praising major nadal hasan, the ft. Hood shooter. So this is a man who continued all this time to try and stoke violence against the United States. Weve been looking back at his most recent videos. Perhaps the most recent one we can find is september last year. In that he is again calling for attacks on the u. S. Embassy and other u. S. Interests inside pakistan as a way to topple the Pakistan Government jim. Well on any other day, i think as we said earlier, the killing of adam gadahn would be a major story. In this case of course overshadowed by the mistakes here, the american hostages killed. Thanks very much to Nick Robertson for joining us. Much to discuss. I want to bring in a former cia officer. Also david rhode, cnn global reporter. He himself was once held captive by the taliban, escaped himself. David, i wonder if i could begin with you. You lived those harrowing months as a captive yourself, fearing for your own life hoping i imagine, for rescue. Here you have these hostages, the american and the italian, who lived for years in those circumstances and sadly it ends this way. I wonder if you could just give your reaction to this. How big a mistake, how the families are feeling now. The families are heartbroken. I thought the statement from the weinsteins was articulate and beautiful and spot on. You know they said the ultimate responsibility lies with the kid nal kiddal kidnappers. I think thats true. Theres a second responsibility. Thats to pakistan. The Pakistani Military has allowed these militants to have this safe haven for years. I was held there. Bowe bergdahl was held there for five years. The United States has provided pakistan with 15 billion in military aid. Yet, the problem continues. I mean it is incredible. Ive been to pakistan a number of times. There have been questions, not spoken about publicly but about pakistani officials, particularly within the Intelligence Community. Lets motte mince words here. This is a spectacular intelligence failure. Youve killed an american and italian after surveilling this compound for hundreds of hours. In addition to that, you killed two americans who were with the terror group, but you didnt know they were there either. There are a whole host of legal traps youre supposed to run through if an american air strike or drone strike is going to kill an american. How could such an intelligence failure happen in not one but two drone strikes and have so many so much i hate to use the term Collateral Damage but thats what you have here. Well i think its actually pretty easy. The only way youre going to know whats inside of those buildings is to have a source inside of those buildings who also happens to have Satellite Communications at that time. Thats almost unheard of for the agency to have that type of sources. You would be dependent on visual observation. Thats not going to do all that much for you, in all probability. Or youre going to have to be dependent on liaison information. As pointed out, the pentagon liaison information coming from the pakistanis is usually very precarious. David, the intelligence officials, or u. S. Officials have told me that despite the fact they had hundreds of hours of surveillance on that particular site that these hostages are so high value that they would never have been brought out of the compound. They would have been hidden well thats why its possible to have all that surveillance and have no indication there were western hostages inside. In your experience when you were held did they keep you under wraps like that so you wouldnt be spotted from above . Because theyre very aware of u. S. Satellite and drone capability. Did they keep you under wraps like that . They did. This is a mistake. There should be an investigation, but theyre aware of that. They believed americans had Amazing Technology where if i ever looked up at the sky, a drone would instantly recognize me. So they probably did, you know, restrict them in their movements and hide them. Its just tragic whats happened here. Reuel, i want to ask you here because theres a big picture question about the effectiveness of drone strikes. So many questions. There are civilian casualties on the ground that have happened in every country. Its led to enormous antiamerican feeling because of those. You have the Great Potential for mistakes. You have the old question that Donald Rumsfeld asked nearly a decade ago. Could Something Like this be a watershed event for the u. S. Drone program . Could this turn it over make this president and future president s reconsider . Well im skeptical. Its possible, but perhaps not for those reasons. Im surprised, actually the terrorist groups havent used hostages more effectively in the past to insulate them from drone attacks. The range for special operations is quite limited. Drones are larger. I think most terrorists certainly in pakistan and afghanistan fear the use of drones more than they do helicopters coming over the mountains. So if they were to let it known that the hostages travel with high priority targets, i think it would have a real insulating effect upon american actions. Drones have their distinct limitations. I think there are times where they can be quite effective, and there are individuals that you want to take out. Theres no way youre going to be able to send special operations by helicopter and to take out these folks. So its a hard call but again, im surprised we havent seen more of this sooner. Each drone strike itself is a hard call. Difficult call deadly call. Great to have you both on. Coming up next, senator john mccain is weighing in on all this. His first Public Comments since the news broke. Hes going to join us live. Plus Brooke Baldwin is live in baltimore monitoring a rally thats about to begin there. Brooke hows it looking there . Yeah definitely more and more people beginning to gather here as were now in the 3 00 eastern hour here at city hall in baltimore. We are getting some breaking news about one of the Police Officers involved in freddie grays arrest. News about his own history of violence. Stay right here. Youre watching cnns special live coverage. Well be right back. If you suffer from a dry mouth then youll know how uncomfortable it can be. But did you know that the lack of saliva can also lead to tooth decay and bad breath . 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Call one reverse mortgage now and ask for your free guide. Welcome back. Im jim schuto in washington with more on our breaking news. Two hostage, including an american accidently killed along with two american al qaeda operatives by u. S. Drone strikes along the afghanistanpakistan border. Cnns chief Congressional Correspondent dana bash is on capitol hill with senator john mccain, whos been very vocal on the u. S. Drone program. Dana it will be interesting to hear what he has to say. Thats right. Thank you so much jim. Youre the chairman of the Armed Services committee. You obviously are very well versed in the drone policy. Given what happened should the drone policy be revisited . I think what happened should be revisited, obviously, because a terrible thing happened when two innocent people were killed one american one italian. So the whole process has to be revisited and reviewed. But to do away with the Drone Program, of course would deprive us of an enormously important tool that we use to take out the leaders of these terrorist organizations. Given the fact that it seems as though our intelligence clearly failed us this time yes. The u. S. Intelligence didnt detect there were two american civilians. Yes. And so what went wrong . Why didnt they know it . By the way, theres no substitute for boots on the ground. Im not saying there could have been boots on the ground here in this particular scenario but it really helps when you have american eyes there. So review what happened why did it happen and is there ways to prevent it . Or some may reach the conclusion that says look this is the risk you take when you are engaged in this kind of conflict. But it seems to me that since we have so much capability that were going to find out that it could have been avoided. But does the u. S. Rely too much on drones these days . I think we rely way too much on drones in many areas, and there are other areas like where americans just cant get to then thats our only tool. But there are some areas where we should have boots on the ground. We should have american presence. Unfortunately, we have to rely on the drones. Is this one of the areas where you believe the u. S. Relies too much on drones or you believe it was appropriate . I just think its an example where serious mistakes were made so you have to review it and figure out why this happened. And its a tragedy. Theres no doubt that this is a tragedy, but we are in a war, a conflict against an enemy whos bent on our destruction. Its very clear the other individual who was killed in this strike as well was an individual who was a leader in their effort to attack america. The weinstein family put out a pretty lengthy statement. In part of it they were thanking their u. S. Senators from maryland but also it was pretty tough on what was clearly the administration saying unfortunately the assistance we received from other elements of the u. S. Government was inconsistent and disappointing over the 3 1 2 years. They went on to say they hope that their loved ones death prompts better communication with families. I mean you have history with this. Is there a problem with the u. S. Government and communicating properly with families especially when there are intelligence issues here . I think there has been a problem with the communication between the white house and the families. As you know a wonderful young woman named Kayla Mueller of prescott, arizona, was killed by these terrible people. And i think over time the communication with her family got better. I also think we should review why we were unable to rescue her as well. But again, this is a tough business were in. I dont want to be in the position of monday morning quarterbacking but we have to have the insurance. Members of congress families, and others have to make sure that whatever measures are necessary to prevent this from ever happening again. If i may, just one quick political question. Youve been pretty out there and engaged in the 2016 race for president on the republican side. Really taking some whacks at ted cruz and most recently rand paul on his foreign policy. You were a nominee, not just a candidate, a nominee. Why do you want to get in there so badly . I guess, you know, its like the horse that used to draw the milk wagon. No really its thrust upon me some of this. In other words, senator cruz who i like and is a valued member says that or the impression was created that he had pressured me to do something that i didnt know anything about. So i had to respond. In the case of senator rand paul he has been talking about me. Of course i have to respond to that. I think that his National Security views are very dangerous to the future of america. So i feel compelled to speak out, particularly when he makes statements and assertions which are like the fact that we shouldnt have taken gadhafi out of libya. He said he wouldnt provide aid to israel because theyre a wealthy country. He said the iranians arent a threat. He has a long record of statements and positions, which i think would be not appropriate for a republican nominee for president of the United States. And we should say as we leave it here that you are fully endorsing your good friend Lindsay Graham whos also very likely to run. As National Security becomes more and more important, youll see the rise of Lindsay Graham. Thank you, senator mccain. Jim, back to you. Well he didnt quite indict the Drone Program as a whole, dana bash. Interesting. Just said more needs to be done. Back to Brooke Baldwin in baltimore. We can see the crowds behind you there, brooke. Looks like the protest is coming together. Yeah it has begun. Theyre looping around this whole grassy area this park in front of city hall. Estimating so far maybe 200 people. I covered the marches in new york. I have to have say, the makeup is similar. Older, younger, multiple ethnicities here Walking Around here in baltimore because theyre frustrated. You see the sign saying justice for freddie gray. Theyll be looping around us. Youll see them continue here. Its anticipated to grow through the the next couple of hours. So thats happening. This is also happening. We have some new information about one of the officers involved in the case of freddie gray. Let me tell you about that right now. The suspect, of course this young man, this 25yearold whose death in Police Custody sparked outrage and protest, such as the ones were seeing here. Cnn has now learned that lieutenant brian rice has been accused not once but twice of Domestic Abuse and that he also had a temporary restraining order against him that was later denied by the courts. So far, we have not been able to get a comment from rice or his lawyer. Were working on that. But meantime back to whats happening here at Baltimore City hall. These protests these people who are furious, demonstrators are gathering. They want answers in the wake of the death of this 25yearold young man. As i mentioned, 200 right now. Thousands are anticipated this evening. Also were hearing this weekend, saturday in particular to be particularly large. You have state troopers sent in by the governor. Theyre standing guard here as well alongside baltimore police. They want to ensure these protests remain peaceful, as the community here is calling for justice for the 25yearold man who died four days ago now. Weve also learned grays family has just received his body this morning. Were getting some news as far as the funeral is concerned in the next couple of days. Their attorney also says they will be conducting a private autopsy of freddie gray. His supporters are now not only outraged over his death but also by comment from the police union. Let me read the statement for you. They said this. Quote, we are very concerned about the rhetoric of the protests. In fact the images seen on Television Look and sound much like a lynch mob. Theyve already tried and convicted the officers and thats just unfair. They still get their day in court. They did not give up their Constitutional Rights when they became a Law Enforcement officer. Thats what i was getting at to that. Some of the protesters and some of the stuff ive been watching on the news, they want them put in prison. Well they havent been charged. I have Baltimore City councilman with me. Thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you, brooke for covering this for us. Its important to be here. And its important to cover this whole story, as much as we can, given the fact theres a dearth of information. Youre fired up, spskecifically over the mayor, whose office is just over our shoulder. You say shes been too calm about all this. Well for too long. I dont want to make this a distraction of elected officials quarreling. Thats not what this bigger issue is. The bigger issue and why im upset is the fact that leadership has been too calm about this entire Police Brutality issue in Baltimore City for years. Mr. Grays death last week is a touch stone. It is a Tipping Point for those of us in the community here in baltimore. But this is not the first of it. Thats why i say that the mayor and others are much too calm about this. Its been going on for years. Heres how the mayor has responded, just to be on her side. Shes just responded saying screaming and yelling is not going to get the gray family the answers theyre looking for. So thats how shes responding. Im also reminded i live in new york. Im reminded of mayor bill de blasio when there were two officers brutally shot and killed. He to some, appeared a tad too empathetic to the Africanamerican Community and not quite as supportive of officers. Who could forget the picture of those officers turning their backs on the mayor of the city of new york. So there were concerns that if she were to be pounding her fists louder it would look bad for police. No we are not against our police in baltimore. We have a decent relationship. What we dont have a tolerance for is the fact that there is more than a handful of really bad cops in this town. And that this is not a new problem. Whats new is the technology on cell phone cameras that allow this to be exposed more so than its ever been. We are fine with the majority of our cops. Were not happy at all with the more than handful of cops. You grew up here. This is your home. Growing up as a black man in baltimore, what was your experience like . At 25 just using that example, as freddie gray was 25 and how have you seen Attitudes Towards Police shift . I had a really good experience with Police Officers in Baltimore City. They knew my name. They knew my parents name. I knew them. At some point, things shifted. I think part of that is because we recruit so many officers who live so many miles away. Theyre not here in the city of baltimore . No theyre not. Officers commute to baltimore one, two, three hours a day. They drive into the city. They come in somewhat as an occupied force. Then they leave. They dont go to church here. They dont shop in the supermarket here. But isnt that on people in baltimore then to get people who live in the community to come represent and protect, serve and protect their own . Well i think and by the way, youre not alone in saying that. We heard that after what happened in ferguson missouri. A lot of those officers theyre not as emotionally invested in the community. I think that the officers that we recruit can live anywhere they want. I think they ought to make baltimore their home. If they want to be paid and to encourage and to be a part of this community, thats what they should feel. They will live in and near the city of baltimore so that they have this relationship with the citizens. So many of these people out here are very very angry. They absolutely are saying in this case in particular and we dont have all the facts, but theyre absolutely saying this is Police Brutality. Theyve seen the videos. In one sense, they want attitudes among officers to shift. Im also wondering if attitudes toward Police Officers within members of the Community Need to shift as well. I think that frankly we have a good attitude toward our good Police Officers. I think were willing to sit with officers and to tell them what we know is going on in our communities. I think people get more upset not in terms totally, this Police Brutality is huge. But i think good citizens are discouraged when Police Officers dont take care of the bad elements that are in our communities. So many of us think the police arent policing well in our communities. They sometimes brutalize good people and dont find ways to discourage some of the bad behavior of hoodlums in our neighborhoods. Carl stokes, thank you very much for taking the time today. I appreciate it. Jim, were here were life at city hall. Im looking. There seems to be an organized gathering to my right. Im going to wander over there way. In the meantime let me send it back to you in washington. Lets hope it stays calm there. Its good to have you there watching. Back to our other breaking news here a u. S. Drone strike inadvertently killing two hostage, including an american. Next were going to talk about the Drone Program as a whole, who signs off, the clear risks involved. Plus breaking news. Former cia director David Petraeus has now been sentenced for leaking classified documents to his former lover. Well bring that story to you right after this. Female announcer sleep trains interest free for 3 event is ending soon get three years interestfree financing on beautyrest black, Stearns Foster Serta Icomfort even tempurpedic. Plus, get free delivery, free setup, and free removal of your old mattress and sleep trains 100day low price guarantee. But hurry sleep trains interest free for 3 event is ending soon. Guaranteed sleep train your ticket to a better nights sleep welcome back. Im jim schuto live in washington. We have more breaking news. This time out of charlotte, north carolina. Thats where the former cia chief David Petraeus has just been sentenced for leaking classified documents to his former lover who was writing a biography about him. I want to bring in cnn justice correspondent pamela brown right now. Pamela will he do any time in prison for this . What is the sentence . No prison time jim, but we have learned that the judge upped the punishment here. The government had originally suggested that he face two years probation and a 40,000 fine. But today the judge in that charlotte courtroom upped the fine to 100,000 saying that reflects the seriousness of the offense of the removal and retention of classified information. Now, both the government and the defense argued today that he shouldnt face jail time because none of that information, that classified information was published or made public. As you know jim, there has been a lot of criticism against the Justice Department for giving petraeus special treatment, saying that he should have faced more charges, including lying to investigators, that the punishment should have been harsher. But we know today he pleaded guilty to that misdemeanor charge and he spoke in court today and said that he apologized for the pain my actions have caused. Also there were letters read in court today from people who had worked with him, who supported him and said he was a great role model. In response to that he said im honored and humbled by their words. We know were expecting a competent from the retired fourstar general any moment now right outside of that courthouse in charlotte, jim. Let me ask you this question pamela. I know these are not necessarily easy ones. But a lower ranking person in the military or the cia, if theyd done the same would they have likely faced jail time . Well, what we know is that there have been other situations with lower ranking officials who have been charged with similar offenses who are in jail. Theres a contractor who is serving a little over a year in jail for releasing classified information to a reporter. In fact his attorney wrote the Justice Department and said it was a double standard essentially that his client was put in jail for that but petraeus is basically not having to face any jail time under this plea agreement that he reached with the government. But again, the defense and the government actually argued today that none of this classified information was published. Therefore, probation was appropriate. But i think what we saw from the judge here was an acknowledgment jim, that the punishment was too light and thats likely why the judge upped the fee that he must pay to 100,000. Jim . Well, its a remarkable fall. The former chief of the cia. Pamela brawn, thanks for joining us. Back to our big story today. Three americans, one hostage and two al qaeda operatives were inadvertently killed by u. S. Drone strikes in and around the afghanistanpakistan border. That reigniting debate over the whole u. S. Drone program. It has been a lightning rod for controversy for some time from the use of unmanned device edneds edned devices as a counterterrorism tool to the way its run and whos in charge. I wonder if i could start with you, josh. We just had senator mccain on there, dana bash asked him should the program as a whole be rethought here. I mean you really have a perfect storm of mistakes in this case. Bad intelligence in effect not only killing an american hostage, and italian hostage, but killing two american terror suspects or members of al qaeda without running the legal traps necessary to kill an american. This is a Real Intelligence failure here. In light of all the other questions about this program, civilian casualties on the Ground Reaction of host nations, do you see this as a watershed event for the u. S. Drone program . Thanks jim. Absolutely yes, this is a watershed event. Ive been speaking with counterterrorism officials and Administration Officials all day who worked on this program and who actually worked on the search for Warren Weinstein. They all basically said the same thing. They said under the rules that were established, eventually given enough time mistakes like this were bound to happen. And this comes at the end of a years long debate inside the diplomatic and Intelligence Community about what these rules should be especially when it comes to a place like North Waziristan in pakistan where these Counterterrorism Operations are assumed to have taken place because thats a place where we dont have intelligence on the ground. The Pakistani Army cant get there. U. S. Intelligence officials are sparse on the ground. So were relying on secondhand information, signals intelligence satellites drones and thats an imperfect system. Eventually given that lack of visibility Something Like this was going to happen. So that mandates a discussion both inside the government and inside the congress and amongst used in the public, about how to fix that. No question. And listen afghanistanpakistan is certainly not the only place where you have intelligence weakness. Youve just pulled out a lot of re resources from yemen where you have aqap. In fact, there were two drone strikes earlier this week on monday and wednesday. Its long been a black hole inside syria, where you have isis. Douglas brinkley when we look at the president here this is a president who, you know, enormously ratcheted up the Drone Program, the number of strikes compared to the george w. Bush administration markedly different, marked increase. You have this mistake. You certainly had the success of a risky counterterror operation in killing osama bin laden, but youve had failed rescue attempts for american hostages of isis inside syria. You had an operation in yemen attempting to rescue hostage there where the hostage was killed by his captors during the fire fight. Now you have this. How does this affect the president s legacy in light of his rule growing this program . Well barack obama will always be associated with the Drone Program. It really came of age as a technology during his presidency. We dont want to lose sight of the fact that the drones are really helping defeat al qaeda. We hit the right compound. It was a terrible tragedy thats occurred here. And we have to think clearly of Warren Weinstein as an american hero. Hopefully well be able to rerepresents really u. S. Aid workers all over the world who are trying to fight for democracy and doing humanitarian good. But the president is going to have to get a report and do some retooling. We dont want a repeat of this. The enemy here is al qaeda. We have to be careful not to over beat up on cia or president obama because of an event like this. Its tough to ferret out terrorists. We do the best we can. Mistakes at war are going to happen and this is one of them. No question, but lets be fair. You have costbenefit analysis with any of this. This is something that goes back to bush administration. Donald rumsfeld asked this question. Are we killing them faster than were creating them . The thing about the Drone Program in countries like this places like pakistan afghanistan, you kill whether they be fighters or suspected fighters or civilians in there. Often times that leads others to join these extremist groups. It doesnt mean you take away the tool but you have to factor that do you not, into the analysis as to whether its worth it overall. I mean josh is that part of the debate here in washington . Well it was part of the debate. And this is really interesting because especially when it comes to pakistan there was a huge fight between the state department and the embassy in islamabad and the cia over many years over this very question. There were many people inside the u. S. Government who believed that the drone strikes were doing more harm than good hurting our relationship with the pakistani government and the pakistani people and that the intelligence just wasnt there. A lot of those concerns are born out in this tragedy. You saw white house spokesman josh earnest say today that the Intelligence Community had a high confidence there were no civilians in the area. That was obviously wrong. The problem was that the president s view on this is well known inside the administration. Everybody eventually had to come around to it. This is a president who has shunned boots on the ground. Hes shunned getting u. S. Personnel involved in these conflicts, so hes relied on these drones and on these technologies. In the end, that debate has always come out on the president s side because the president is ultimately in charge. As long as barack obama is in power, that policy is not likely to change. And this will become now a more robust debate as we head into 2016. Doug just a quick thought before we have to go. Is it worth it overall in your view . Absolutely. The one thing youll find bipartisan support on is the drones program. You had john mccain saying we have to finetune it but its got to stay. And you have barack obama saying the same thing. The option of putting troops on the ground we cant do and we have to decimate al qaeda. We have to fight the war on terror. This is the best that we have. Lets hope we can get better intelligence and that the drones can get more sophisticated in what they do so we dont kill innocent civilians in places like pakistan either. I would just say here that the drone policy has to be part of a more robust strategy to countering al qaeda. We cant just do drones. We have to have an engagement on the ideological level, on the diplomatic level to solve this problem because the drones alone just wont do it. No question. The drone strike is only as good as the gejs. Thanks very much. Brooke back to you in baltimore. You can see how the crowds are growing there behind you. Yeah they have definitely grown. Theyre here in between, obviously you have city hall, and the war memorial. I would estimate several hundred people here gathering. I know some family members of freddie grays are here in this crowd. Theyre about to speak. A woman who spoke, who lives in the neighborhood she took one of the cell phone videos were now seeing as far as a piece of this arrest. So coming up well talk to a former Maryland State Police officer, also served the city of baltimore, about this arrest, and if he thinks there was too much force, if protocol was followed. He definitely has some thoughts. Hell join me live. Stay here. Youre watching cnns special coverage. The promise of the cloud is that every organization has unlimited access to information, no matter where they are. The microsoft cloud gives our team the power to instantly deliver critical information to people, whenever they need it. Here at accuweather we get up to 10 billion Data Requests every day. The cloud allows us to scale up so we can handle that volume. We can help keep people safe and to us that feels really good. Meet the worlds newest Energy Superpower. Surprised . In fact, america is now the worlds number one natural gas producer. And we could soon become number one in oil. Because Hydraulic Fracturing Technology is safely recovering lots more oil and natural gas. Supporting millions of new jobs. Billions in tax revenue. And a new century of American Energy security. The new Energy Superpower . Its red, white and blue. Log on to learn more. Youre watching cnn. Im Brooke Baldwin leave in baltimore. A couple hundred of people already gathered there furious. Youve seen the poster boards already out. We want justice for 25yearold freddie gray. You have seen the videos. You have heard the cries from black men like gray. And walter scott and eric garner and eric harris who ultimately died after their encounters with police. Lets be clear the cases are by no means identical. The out cries from the communities strike the same chord. As we see more graphic images like these, one question thats being asked are americans become desenathized and will changed in Law Enforcement policy and prevention ever truly happen. I have a former Police Officer from maryland. Welcome. Let me begin with you. Were out here over your shoulder several thousand people several hundred people have amassed. Theyre frustrated we heard from one of the women who shot the videos. Youve seen the video. As someone who trained the head of training for baltimore more city police for four years your were with the city. You see the video, of freddie gray on his stomach, being held. Officers knees on his neck. Does that appear excessive toof you or not . From what i see in the video, it doesnt appear to be excessive. They apprehended him and placed the cuffs on him. Theyre holding him in this position until the wagon comes. The issue is what happened before the video started rolling. How did they effect the arrest. Was there Excessive Force with the knee on the neck area. Theres no question in my mind this guy was injured. During that time. Because you can hear him screaming. And whether you think hes faking it or not, you have to Pay Attention to that. Youre trained to Pay Attention to that. Youre trained to render aid, even if you think someone is faking. Watching them carry him to the van, drag him to the van, he appeared to me to be in pain. Just the fact that he can stand up or prop himself, balance himself on the rear of the van, doesnt mean that he wasnt injured. I mean, come on i mean i thinkb that he was injured during the arrest. Then other things happened during transport. I also have questions about why they would place leg restraints on him once hes inside the van if hes handcuffed behind. Properly seatbelted. We dont know if he was seatbelt pd or not. According to mike davie, he wasnt. If he is if you follow freerge procedure, seatbelt him in he should be fine while transporting. I believe he was transporting and i believe something was aggravated maybe the injury was aggravated during transport. Youre listening to this conversation. Weve talked a number of times. Im wondering to you on the point of if you and anyone out here whether or not they have become desinatized by the videos they would say hell no. I mean its all now in hashtags and in all these videos. Do you think thats happening . Well i think its a fair question absolutely. Because heres whats happening. These are coming out so in such rapid succession none of them have a chance to resolve before we see the next video of yet another killing. And we see them you know kind of constantly played over and over you know for the hunth hundredth time. Its one thing to have it on a website, its a different thing to have it play 20 30 40 times a day. And what does that say about the value of that particular life . We make decisions in media all the time about whether or not were going to show the taking of a life. We make those decisions about whether or not were going to show terrorists taking lives and isis whether or not were going to show the cutting of the throat. A lot of people make decisions not to show that. Yet, we will show constantly black men losing their lives on tv. And i do have to say, what does that do to us as a culture and whether or not it coarsens us as a culture. We have to balance the degree to which showing it and showing how many of the same there are helps people to understand and no longer turn their eyes away from the realities of whats happening on the streets. And maybe called to some sort of action or at least realization and whether there comes a point where you run into diminishing returns in which case you start to in our people to the point they are no longer activated and become callus to the idea of these deaths. And i think that is a real question. I think its kind of a philosophical media ethics question as much as it is a cultural question. Sure. Sure. Let me hit pause on this conversation. Im being told general petraeus is live. We have to take that. Lets go. What did he say . All right. Im being told it was short. This is just after he was sentenced. That was David Petraeus there briefly. As soon as we get more on that well bring it back. Lets continue where we were. I hear you on the ethics question charles blow and the duvall ewing, almost of these lives when these videos are looped over and over. To you, from the perspective of a Police Officer, and i continue to go back to what we know and this neighborhood. Everything that i understand if youre an officer, you probably know this part of baltimore where this happened. I grew up a few blocks north from the incident yes. There you go. So okay you know the area. You know that if youre an officer in order to make this constitutional stop is what they call it this is considered a high crime area which i know you have questions over you call an area high crime, the fact that they have to have reasonable suspicion. You say its a tad too murky. Well it is. Why . Because reasonable suspicion in this case comes from case law. Weve got ohio versus harry, for this particular case which involves someone making eye contact with Police Officer then unprovoked running thats from a 2000 Supreme Court case which is illinois versus wardlow. Okay so theres no specific criteria its kind of like reasonable suspicion is i have to be able to articulate it. Im going to have knowledge that i can articulate. For instance if i know the individual maybe ive arrested him before. And im not saying this is the case. Right. Im giving you an example. If ive arrested him before i know this is his favorite spot for doing whatever that criminal behavior may be. Now i roll up and i make eye contact, and then he runs now ive got something a little bit more. But just to roll up in a socalled high crime area which is just about any part of this wonderful city were in. To make eye contact and the person runs the other way, as far as im concerned, and what we teach, that is not reasonable suspicion. Because let me tell you when the police roll up on any corner in this city nobody wants to interact with the police. Youll turn and go another way. I know family and especially hearing from the attorney saying he should have run faster the other direction. This is that perspective and theyre questioning any kind of reasonable suspicion those officers had. Youre listening to the conversation. I was rereading a piece of yours when you were talking about the walter scott case but in a lot of these cases people are bringing up they shouldnt have run. What was your point there in the last 30 seconds i have . I think all of that goes to the murkiness. Its not even just what the officer was talking about. Its all of the constructions of fear. What does that mean . You know are you afraid of me and do you have a right to be afraid of me . How often in these cases not in this particular case but other cases we have encountered where people say i thought i saw something in his waist band. Do black men have to start wearing leotards . All of this stuff is so murky. Theres so much discretion around what is Excessive Force. So that you can craft an argument in a legal way out of it so you will come back very often with a rendering that says that this person did nothing that was outside of policy. Although ethically, it seems wrong. It seems wrong that so many of these young black men are losing their lives when the Justice System could have dealt with them with a lesser degree. Charles blow, neil franklin