medicare estimate approximately 4 million people will lose their coverage under medicare advantage. >> that's mitt romney today in south carolina. paul ryan said the same thing last night in ohio. surrogates have been repeating that for several days now. keeping them honest though, as we and many reporters, fact checking organizations, have been pointing out, paul ryan's house republican budget actually adopted that same $716 billion in savings and mitt romney endorsed it. i asked a key romney surrogate about that endorsement just the other day. >> isn't the ryan plan the romney plan? >> no, it isn't. >> let me read you a quote. hang on. >> no, it isn't. you keep want to say it and i'm telling you it's not. >> that's been mr. romney's line as well, downplaying his prior endorsement of the ryan budget plan. last night on wisconsin local television, he seemed to try to do two things at once, both back away from the ryan plan, while also suggesting there's nothing to back away from. take a look. >> your senior campaign adviser said sunday if the ryan budget would have come to your desk, you would have signed it in the january debate. you called it a proposal that was absolutely right on. why now are you distancing yourself at least from the medicare portion of the ryan budget? >> actually, paul ryan and my plan for medicare i think is the same. if not identical, it's probably close to identical. >> a short time later, mr. romney then went even further. >> we eak with exactly the same policy today. he and i have exactly the same policy the place there's a big difference is between myself and paul ryan and the president. the president has a very different plan. >> so notices that he said today they have exactly the same policy which is precisely what you would expect between running mates. after nearly a week of the candidate underscoring the difference between his medicare policy and ryan's medicare policy. that followed months of candidate endorsing congressman ryan's policies including those medicare cuts. so joining us now, gop strategist and former romney campaign consultant alex castellanos. also, democratic consultant hilary rosen with us as well. alex, you heard about the discrepancy i was just pointing out between what mitt romney said last night what john sununu told me just the other day. why is it that the campaign has seemed to be -- i think the word that's fair is unprepared to answer specifics about how they differ in their policies? does that surprise you? >> no, not especially. i think, you know, a lot of times it's i guess our job in the news media to find conflict where not that much exists. romney's running for president, not paul ryan. romney's the one who's putting something on the table that he is proposing as policy for voters now. it doesn't have the $716 billion in cuts that either was in the ryan budget and that the president of the united states, by the way, actually implemented. so that's what i think is under consideration. you know the way congress works, soledad, you put something on the table and you start the race at the starting line, not the finish line. when you put something up in congress, it's the beginning of a negotiation. it's the beginning of the process. hold someone accountable for saying, hey, that's a good place to start. of course. you're not going to throw all your cards on the table at the beginning. >> no, but i would think in terms of just a message, to have contradictions over a week in your message and having a spokesperson who cannot articulate balanced budget, which is a similar question to what was asked of paul ryan the day before, i would just think that would be strategically unwise and just kind of messy frankly, right? >> well, i'm not so sure i heard the same conflicts you did. i heard mitt romney say pretty clearly that the president's already cut medicare for current seniors. i've heard mitt romney say he's not going to do that. i've heard mitt romney say, in fact, he's going to repeal obama care and restore those $716 billion in cuts. i've heard mitt romney say paul ryan supports that. that the ryan budget is not what is on the table. it's the romney budget. so i think that's pretty clear. i'm not so sure what's entirely confusing about that. >> all right. well, let's turn to hilary rosen. when everybody's talking about voter priorities, what they're talking about, hilary is jobs, job, jobs. i have to imagine for the obama campaign to talk about medicare, maybe that's better than talking about jobs. but are voters going to be fine with that, you know, sort of taking a departure down this road? >> well, yeah, you know, i don't think that there's any attempt to kind of distract from jobs. i think what happened is that mitt romney, when he chose paul ryan, knew that there was a vulnerability around the ryan budget. that there were a number of programs that paul ryan proposed cutting, including medicare, turning that to a voucher system, including student loans, including, you know, child care, a whole series of things. what they tried to do strategically s start talking about it so they could spin the medicare issue their way. because they're worried about senior voters. and i think that -- despite what alex just said, you know, on sunday we heard romney say we're not going to deal with the ryan budget. the ryan plan. you know, i don't care about his plan. this is going to be the romney plan. and yesterday we heard governor romney say, well, you know, my plan and the ryan plan are pretty similar. and then today he said something yet a third time. so i think that it would have been helpful for them if they actually, you know, scripted themselves earlier about this problem that they knew existed, and stopped trying to sort of spin it around to get the voters to think that what they're not trying to do is actually up-end the medicare system. >> alex, let me ask you a question. today congressman ryan who was talking to reporters said he actually opposed the medicare cuts or savings -- there's been debate about that terminology -- even though they ended up in his own house republican budget twice. i'm going to play a little clip of what he said and then we'll talk about it on the other side. >> first of all, those are in the baseline to put those cuts in. second of all, we voted to repeal obama care repeatedly. including those cuts. i voted that way before the budget. i voted that way after the budget. so when you repeal all of obama care. in our budget, we've restored a lot of that. it gets a little wonky but it was already in the baseline. we would have never done it in the first place. we voted to repeal the whole bill. i just don't think the president's going to be able to get out of the fact that he took $716 billion from medicare to pay for obama care. so, he's right, it does get a little wonky. but that's a really complicated thing that he's saying there. didn't his house budget include those very cuts or savings? they are in his house budget. house republicans voted on that budget in march of 2012. those very same numbers, correct? >> i think his explanation is complicated. i think his position is complicated. he has been a -- he had has two different positions on those. certainly in the ryan budget, they did havthose cuts that the president frankly included in his budget and implemented. but, again, in congress, we know how that works. when you put something on the table, you don't give everything away. you keep something for negotiating room. that the republicans had i think a pretty -- a good opening hand there. but ryan is correctly noting that when he voted to repeal obama care that would have repealed in its entirety and restored those cuts. so maybe he evolved on that position. but we know where he is now. he is supporting the romney policy. that's what's on the ballot. >> go ahead, hilary. >> i think the voters over the next couple of months are going to be subjected to, you know, millions and millions of dollars of ads from both sides saying that the other side is trying to hurt medicare, right? so what it's really going to come down to for voters i think is answering this question about who you trust on this issue. like -- and i think that the thing that the ryan budget and the romney plan have in common is that both of those plans take money away from the middle class. whether it's student loans, whether it's child care, whether it's education, whether -- and whether it's middle class, earned income tax credits. all to pay. and this is key to the ryan plan and the romney plan. all to pay for the traditional tax cuts for the wealthy -- >> -- sounds like, hilary -- >> -- i don't know who's telling the truth. i have to go with my gut about who's been there for me before. >> let me ask you both a final question. hilary, it sounds like you're saying what has been a medicare debate and wonky is a really good term for going through these numbers with a fine-tooth comb. is going to, now, turn into a conversation about a bigger budget. a balanced budget. where cuts coming from the budget and also you think it's going to turn into conversation about taxes. >> if you're asking hilary -- >> go ahead, alex. hang on -- >> this is what they're -- >> now, what -- i agree with hillary, soledad, i think you're right, it's going to turn into a debate about who do you trust, but also who's done what to whom so far and where are we going. i think the challenge for both republicans and democrats is to explain what this means to not only the private sector but the public sector. the president's attack here you're going to get less from government. i think what republicans are challenged to do now is say no, no, if you vote for those guys, obama and biden, you're going to get less from the private sector. we're going to have a smaller economy with fewer jobs. that's going to produce less revenue. with less revenue, we can't save social security and medicare. >> which means we'll be -- >> so two different approaches. >> -- talking about that to the very end. nice to see both you. we'll continue to have this conversation i'm guessing almost every single night. tell us what you think. we're on facebook or follow us on twitter, @ac360. mitt romney talks taxes, his taxes. new signs that wisconsin, which went for president obama by double digits last time around, could be in play this time around. is paul ryan the reason? john king is going to join us to crunch the numbers. david gergen too. that's next. energy is being produced to power our lives. while energy development comes with some risk, north america's natural gas producers are committed to safely and responsibly providing generations of cleaner-burning energy for our country, drilling thousands of feet below fresh water sources within self-contained well systems. and, using state-of-the-art monitoring technologies, rigorous practices help ensure our operations are safe and clean for our communities and the environment. we're america's natural gas. new evidence that a reliable blue state may now be in play, wisconsin. there's new cnn polling that shows it's close and new signs on the grounds that the obama campaign has started taking the possibility of losing paul ryan's home state a lot more seriously. first, though, the news mitt romney made today about his taxes. >> i did go back and look at my taxes and over the past ten years, i never paid less than 13%. the most recent year, 13.6% or something like that. so i've paid taxes every single year. harry reid's charge is totally false. i'm sure waiting for harry to put up who it was that told him what he says they told him. i don't believe it for a minute, by the way. every year, i've paid at least 13%. if you add in addition the amount that goes to charity, it never gets 20%. >> he said he is not going to release any more than two years of tax returns. as democrats and a number of prominent republicans have called on him to do. now, to the tightening race in wisconsin. john king's been crunching the numbers for us. he also spent time on the ground there recently. john, let's start with what the momentum could be in wisconsin over just the last couple of years. there's been an election of a conservative governor who survived that recall election. there's been the selection of a senator from the tea party ranks. all of that i would guess would mean good news for the gop, good news for romney. >> good news in the sense of an energized republican base from last few years, soledad. here's what we did today. wisconsin was lean obama. we switched it to a toss-up state which gives you a closer race for the electoral college. let's go to that dynamic you're talking about. this is the 2008 map. if you look at wisconsin, you think, come on no way, right, president obama wins it by about 13 points. look at all that blue in the middle of the state. how could paul ryan put it in play? to the points you made, the ryan pick gives you a point or maybe more the obama campaign concede. a lot of republican energy on the ground. that's 2008. if we go to 2010, this is the senate race. ron johnson beats an incumbent democrat, russ feingold. scott walker. not only wins 5247, just survived that recall election a few months ago. that is why, soledad, if you take our poll, you talk to both campaigns, and you go to that state and you sense the republican energy, that's why we saw it's a toss-up. >> if it's a toss-up and it wasn't four years ago, that means the obama campaign's going to have to spend some money. i have to imagine the gop looks at that as a very good thing. >> absolutely. the obama campaign has spent no money on television as yet in the state but we saw the organizing on the ground. they're making phone calls to voters. if they have to spend money, wisconsin is not the most expensive state in the country. you probably have to buy in minneapolis. to get people in this part of the state. you buy down here in milwaukee and madison. you buy up in the green bay market. it's not one of the most expensive states but if you're doing all of that, any money going into here, i would switch to the presidential map, if it's very close, you ght think, boy, i wish we had that for cleveland or columbus. any time and any money and even candidate time that's going into wisconsin now has got to come out of somewhere. >> a zero sum game. you have a limited amount. and you've got to figure out how to spread it around. let's bring in david gergen. senior political analyst for us. nice to see you. we say over and over again wisconsin has not voted republican since 1984. the unemployment rate is well below the national average at 7%. why exactly is wisconsin in play and how much is ryan a part of that? >> cnn moved wisconsin into the toss-up category. to lead obama after ryan was picked. ryan on the ticket has made a difference, soledad. what we're seeing here with ryan is two things. one is an ideological appeal. but also he's a midwesterner. there are several states in the midwest now. michigan cnn still calls as lean obama. others have it as a toss-up. ohio is in a toss-up category. that's pivotal, iowa. so a number of states there that -- paul ryan can identify more as a midwesterner as well as a conservative. i think the polls don't go to and don't measure something that's, right now, very intangible, and that is the excitement level on both sides and what that does to a convention. romney is not getting a big balance out of ryan. it's about half the size of a normal national balance for a vice presidential candidate. it has energized his party on the eve of the convention. that could make a big difference in the convention in tampa. which is not very far away. just ten days away. >> john, if you look at the map that shows three tossups in the midwest, including wisconsin, all of of it in ryan's stomping ground area, what does that mean for strategy? >> a couple ways to look at it. you make an excellent point. i want to pull out to the national map. this is the 2008 race for president. this is not rocket science here. let's turn this on. look at this. look at this. president obama, huge part of his coalition was right here in the industrial midwest. that is the race for president. a lot has changed. midterm election 2010 democrats in washington will say is not the same as a presidential election. look at what happened in this region in 2010. these are the senate races. these are the governors races. only illinois did the democrats hold the governorship. you see all that red. that's why mitt romney is more confident. then you go to the electoral map. here's where we are today. if, this is a hypothetical. if governor romney can get ohio, get wisconsin and get iowa, look at this, that puts him in a tie slightly ahead of the president. everyone believes he has to win florida. that gets him on the doorstep of being elected the next president of the united states. michigan. they might try in pennsylvania. if you look at the area, when i was in iowa, the republican governor said obama's from illinois but now we've got him surrounded. >> so david we see professor mitt romney with the white board out, kind of erasing things on it. former adviser george w. bush karl rove argued today in "the wall street journal" that republicans are now in the advantage talking about medicare and their quote was this time it's different. is it true? because if it's not different, you're going to scare a lot of old people and then you're going to lose. >> that's what gives suspense to this campaign, soledad. by any conventional measure. candidate goes in and wants to reform medicare in a way that could take it away from him. take the full benefits away from a younger crowd. is going to pay a price. there are some polls coming out of florida now suggesting obama has been helped by the ryan selection. what i also found interesting in the cnn poll in wisconsin is that among 65 and older, romney has a substantial lead over president obama. but with the crowd from 50 to 64, it's obama who has a substantial lead. 14-point swing from the 65-year-old types. and it's the 50-year-old to 64-year-old folks who could be affected by medicare reform. people who already have it are not going to be affected. but if you're 50, you've got to be really asking the question, what does it do for me? >> that's got to be problematic as they crunch all those numbers. david gergen, john king, thanks, appreciate it. there's lots more we're following tonight. randi kaye will join us. with a 360 bulletin. >> ecuador has granted political asylum to wikileaks founder julian assange, a decision that's escalated tensions with britain. assange has been holed up in the ecuadorian embassy in london since june. he's trying to avoid extradition to sweden where he faces sexual assault charges. britain has vowed to extradite assange. despite ecuador's move. a jury has awarded a former university of michigan student body president $4.5 million in his lawsuit against a former michigan assistant attorney general who posted about him in an anti-gay blog. chris armstrong who is gay, accused the man of defamation and causing him emotional distress. milwaukee police made a startling discovery. a five-foot long, 70-pound alligator. they confiscated the gator. it is said to be resting comfortably at an animal control shelter. his owners are reportedly trying to get him back. soledad, i can't imagine having that thing as a roommate. >> yeah, no, seriously. all right, randi, thank you. more serious news to tell you about. a week of protests. at a mine in south africa turned into a bloodbath today. police opened fire on striking workers who were reportedly armed with guns and machetes and sticks. we'll tell you what eyewitnesses saw just ahead. wildfires raging across 13 western states, the flames in washington consuming more than 60 homes and 22,000 acres. the latest in a live report straight ahead. ya know, your rates and fees aren't exactly competitive. who do you think i am, quicken loans? [ spokesman ] when you refinance your mortgage with quicken loans, you'll find that our rates and fees are extremely competitive. because the last thing you want is to spend too much on your mortgage. one more way quicken loans is engineered to amaze. ♪ in south africa, a deadly confrontation at the world's third largest platinum mine. we need to warn you, this video is extremely graphic. you're going to see police opening fire on striking workers. it's believed the miners were armed with machetes and sticks. they charged police. then there was this. it's not clear how many people died in that firestorm. police haven't released a death toll yet. cnn's reporter joins us now with more. let me ask you about the start of the violence. it was -- began really about a dispute over wages, but how did it devol into that? >> reporter: exactly, soledad, this country has witted its fair share of violence but even here people are shocked. at least 18 people dead. that's according to a media report. the police have yet to release official numbers. we're hoping that the national commissioner of police would be releasing those figures in a couple of hours time. the mine was very quick to distance itself from this incident. saying that this was a public order issue and not a labor relations matter. but that's how it began. last week, friday, these miners went on strike, demanding more pay. we've seen, between last week, friday, and today, ten people dead. killed in the most gruesome manner before at least 18 we're told, soledad. >> the sou african police released a statement that said, in part, this, the south african police service was viciously attacked by the group using a variety of weapons including firearms the police, in order to protect their own lives and in self-defense, were forced to engage the group with force. after reading that statement, i want to play the video for you one more time. how believable is that? i know there have been different reports about who started shooting first. what have you learned about that? >> reporter: that's the police's side of the story. we'll get more details from the national police commissioner. will be able to question her. because as far as i know, people who i have spoken to say the scene was so chaotic, it was impossible for them to determine who started firing who. the police insisting that these miners were armed. i was here on wednesday. they are armed. armed with very dangerous weapons. machetes. traditional weapons. the police believe guns as well. police are saying they retrieved some of these guns from the men who were killed in those very violent pictures you showed the viewers today. so that's their side of the story. we'll have a chance to question the national police commission better that version of events when she holds her press conference, soledad. >> what happens next? is the dispute nowhere close to being resolved? >> you know, soledad, the mine had actually issued its final ultimatum tohese striking miners who, as i said, have been striking since last week friday. the mine missing six days of work with these workers saying they're not going back till these demands are met. they had said, go back to work on friday, or you will be fired. now this turn of events, we don't know what the unions are going to be doing, the government is going to be doing, but there has to be serious intervention for the killing to stop, soledad. >> thank you for that report. back here at home, there is no end in sight for the wildfires burning. in 13 western states. that's just ahead. ordinary rubs don't always work on my arthritis. try capzasin-hp. it penetrates deep to block pain signals for hours of relief. capzasin-hp. take the pain out of arthritis. oo a michigan man is dead, shot dead, in a hail of bullets by police. there's growing anger in the community over the incident. which was captured on amateur video. that's coming up. our abundant natural gas is already saving us money, producing cleaner electricity, putting us to work here in america and supporting wind and solar. though all energy development comes with some risk, we're committed to safely and responsibly producing natural gas. it's not a dream. america's natural gas... putting us in control of our energy future, now. tonight, some sobering context from national fire officials. wildfires have already destroyed more land than last year at this time. 70 fires are waging across 13 western states. the battle to contain them is being fought around the clock. imagine looking out your window at that. more than 900 file fighters have been batting this wildfire in washington. earlier today the blaze was 25% contained. high winds and heat have made a daunting job that much worse for firefighters. here's dan simon with the very latest. >> it's just the worst nightmare i can possibly imagine. >> reporter: elaine lived by herself on her 14 acres of property in ellensburg, washington. a retired caregiver to the elderly and foster children, she had a small farm to help pay the bills. along with losing her home, she also lost most of her animals. dozens of pigs and dogs. their burned carcasses could be seen everywhere. what's the hardest thing? >> the animals. i mean, the home, you know, that's gone and i can get another home but they had to have suffered. >> reporter: some of the pigs survived. elaine's family is try to take care of them. as well as combing through the rubble to see what can be found. >> what i feel like saying is the end of my life. i mean, i'm alive but -- that's what it feels like. >> reporter: the fire, about 90 miles east of seattle, has so far destroyed at least 60 homes forced hundreds to evacuate. fire officials blame dry terrain and wind for the quick moving fire. many victims broke down in tears as they relieved the terror of the flames approaching their homes. >> i've been here for 25 years. we moved over from bellevue. and it hurts. >> reporter: jack and margot left with virtually nothing. >> we took a few clothes and photographs and that was about it. >> reporter: authorities say the fire is completely man made. that it broke out from a bridge construction project. >> we do not know the specific cause yet. we just know it came from that site. investigators will be actively involved in that. >> reporter: people like elaine had no warning. >> they said, i'm sorry, ma'am, but you can't stay. >> reporter: you weren't able to gather anything? >> no, nothing. just the clothes on my back. >> reporter: she'd come back from a shopping trip on monday when fire crews refused to let her go inside. >> they had nothing to start a home or -- absolutely nothing now. >> reporter: no insurance or anything like that? >> no, no. >> oh, my goodness, that's such a heartbreaking story. dan simon is in washington for us. how much progress are the firefighters making, dan? >> reporter: they feel like they're turning a corner. they're now looking at 33% containment for this blaze, that's up a little bit from yesterday when it was at 25%. they think it will go up in the morning. today they got some help in the elements there wasn't a whole lot of wind today and that helped assist in putting down the blaze. they also employed one of those jumbo dc-10s with fire retardant. they feel like they're getting an upper hand on the blaze. they think that some areas could see some flare-ups so they're watching this. they've got 900 firefighters on the ground. >> good to hear they're aggressive on that. dan simon tonight, appreciate that. >> time to check in with randi kaye. america's west nile outbreak is growing. the mosquito bourne is blamed for three deaths now. the death toll is neighbor in texas and 28 nationwide. cases of west nile have now been reported in 32 states. two louisiana sheriff's deputies were shot to death this morning in two related incidents. a local sheriff said that a shooting at a steel plant led investigators to a trailer park where they were ambushed. two other officers were wounded in the violence. >> and a frightening scene in new york city outside cnn studios. a carriage horse collided with a car. the horse got spooked and broke away from its carriage which flipped over. the "new york times" reports the horse ran about four blocks before getting caught. anger and impatience growing tonight in michigan over the fatal shooting of a man in michigan. it was caught on amateur video and we're going to play it for you. i have to warn you, it's very graphic. we're going to show this video because it reveals how police has handled what has become a controversial case and a major issue in saginaw. some residents are disturbed by how the man was killed. at least 30 shots were fired at him. they're demanding to know why the investigation is taking so long. the incident happened back on july 1st. again, i have to warn you, the video you're about to see is very graphic. here's jason carroll. >> reporter: this amateur video, purchased by cnn and not made public until now, captured the confrontation between six saginaw police officers and milton hall. a 49-year-old man who, his family says, suffered from serious mental health issues. hall, seen in the middle of your screen, police say, had just had a run-in with a convenience store clerk. he was in a standoff with police. and holding some sort of knife. a female officer is heard shouting. >> put the knife down. >> i ain't putting [ muted ] down. >> reporter: if you listen carefully, hall is then heard continuing to yell at police. >> i just called 911. >> reporter: hall seems agitated but not intimidated by a police dog. >> let him go. >> reporter: heard on the tape, a witness describes what he sees. >> about to go ham on him. >> reporter: then as hall appears to take a few steps, everything comes to a head. local media report 46 shots were fired. cnn counted the sounds of at least 30 shots on the videotape. anthony barber witnessed the shooting. >> all of a sudden. and he drops. you know. pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow. and he drops. i was about where that blue van is. i was parked. >> reporter: tabitha perry saw it too. >> i heard one of the officers say something to the fact where -- put the knife down or i let the dog go. >> reporter: do you believe the officers were justified in what they did? >> no, i don't, no, i don't. because what they did, there was a better way to do it. i think their judgment was off. >> reporter: perry is not alone. hall's mother says saginaw police overreacted. >> emotionally, i have a lot of pain. and i'm stunned. that six human beings were standing in front of one human being and fired 46 shots. i just don't understand that. >> reporter: on the day of the shooting, july 1st, the saginaw police chief defended his officers' actions. >> this is someone, from our understanding, he has a long history. not only with police from our department but with the county. known to be an assaultive person. >> reporter: over the last month, members of the community have voiced outrage about the hall shooting. not satisfied with the police investigation into the officers' response. [ shooting ] we showed the video of the shooting to city councilman norman braddock. >> i can see why people are traumatized looking at something like that. and we need answers. >> reporter: braddock has been critical of what he calls the slow pace of the shooting investigation. could it be that investigators are just trying to make sure they're doing a thorough job and that's why the investigation is -- >> i'm sure that has something to do with it, but at the same time, it should be a top priority. >> reporter: -- where you are in terms of the investigation? the michigan state police lead investigator would not discuss the case. referring us to the saginaw county prosecutor. who told us, i can't tell you when the case is going to be completed. hall's mother already feels she knows the answer to the question of whether police used too much force. >> it appeared to be a firing squad dressed in police uniforms. and there was another way. they did not have to kill him. >> jason carroll joins us from saginaw. in the piece you mentioned the community's outrage but this is i think the first time many people are seeing the videotape. so where's the outrage coming from. >> it's twofold. first, soledad, when that incident took place out here, there were so many people surrounding hall and police. it's a small community. word spread very quickly that many shots were fired. this man seemed unarmed with nothing but a knife. there was outrage from that point of view. the other point of view has to do with the length of time it's taking to complete the investigation. many people in the community feel it's taking too long. >> jason carroll, thanks for that report. devastating. all right, let's turn to lou palombo. the direct of the elite group, a security firm. a former police officer as well. we'll play this videotape again. i think it's disturbing. i want to show people what police responded to, what was happening. let's play it. [ shooting ] why would police have to shoot a suspect 46 times? he's clearly got a knife in his hands. they're obviously communicating with him and you can see the distance is not two feet. it's a reasonable distance. why shoot him 46 times? >> that's a good question. as you know, soledad, this is a perceptive nightmare for a law enforcement agency. tragically enough, it could clearly be a lapse in training. that is a very good question. why it would require 46 shots from a group of law enforcement agents to neutralize one individual armed with a knife. this wasn't a scenario where he was discharging a weapon in their direction. >> what's the train sng if someone is at ten feet, i'm guessing at the distance there, and they're waving a knife, is the training to shoot him in the leg or shoot him so that they collapse and they fall and they can't come up and stab you with the knife? >> well actually, what the training is specifically is to shoot you in your thoracic cavity to neutralize you imdiately. >> killing you? >> well, i use the term cease hostility. >> where's your thoracic cavity? >> that's up around your chest. >> right, probably going to kill you. >> more than likely result in you dying. there's a couple of separate issues here. one is if the shooting is justifiable. and they may find out the shooting was justifiable. the second issue is the amount of rounds that were fired at him. one of the things the public has to understand an individual wielding a knife at you can be on top of you in a split second. the public doesn't know this because they don't do this for a living. the other issue is the number of rounds that were fired. every time you discharge your weapon as a law enforcement agent, you have projectiles floating through the air you have to account for and potentially innocent people being struck by them. there's probably a little bit of a training issue here on touch top of the fact they have to investigate and speak to every individual who was a witness to this including every police officer. to determine what exactly transpired. >> clearly the investigation is underway. thank you. appreciate it. >>we're going to be back next with the riduculist. stay with us. and nature...approves. granola thins. from nature valley. nature at its most delicious. so how much do we owe you? that'll be $973.42. ya know, your rates and fees aren't exactly competitive. who do you think i am, quicken loans? [ spokesman ] when you refinance your mortgage with quicken loans, you'll find that our rates and fees are extremely competitive. because the last thing you want is to spend too much on your mortgage. one more way quicken loans is engineered to amaze. ♪ riduculist crime week continues. here's anderson. >> time now for the riduculist, and tonight we're adding the barbecue chip band it's. they struck in canada last month. it's only now going viral in the u.s. the depth of reporting on this story is rivalled only by woodward and bernstein. so we should probably start at the beginning. >> in this quiet neighborhood, people like their chips. >> all kinds. we like those lime, the lime flavored ones. cheesies. >> it only gets better from there. because it wasn't just the local news that got involved. >> these are very specific and hard to obtain barbecue chips. >> that's right, police officers responded to an emergency call from a resident, who to be fair likely thought something sinister was afoot. >> apparently she lives alone and what woken by her growling chihuahua. >> it turns out it wasn't a dangerous intruder, but wait for it, two drunk college girls. >> the women were walking home from a night of drinking when something caught their eye? an open door like this one. what did they see inside? zeller's brand barbecue potato chips. >> what's the big deal about zellor's brand potato chips. >> surely the reporter has better things to do. >> you can find them at zeller's but only for a limited time. meaning its in-house brand could become harder to find, perhaps making it somewhat of a hot commodity. >> can we check in with the officer? >> i haven't tried these for myself, but my understanding is that particular brand the barbecue is quite tasty. >> quite tasty. okay. it stand corrected. wait, what is that? i'm told we're getting more information on what the band its did inside the garage. >> it appears that the effervescent chip package in the open garage just appeared too yummy to pass up for two highly intoxicated young ladies. >> you had me at effervescent. i wish the reporter could give us a better look at what happened. >> so they took the chips and started walking but they didn't get far. the barbecue bandits were busted by the homeowner. >> i love the eat can demonstration. this is getting a little too tense for me. i'm afraid to ask how it turns out. >> apparently the chips have been accessed and there have been elicit chip tastings.
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