because prison is the most existential environment there is. you discover who you are. so if you have these rehabilitative programs available, you can take advantage of it. >> i think that's a good way of putting it. i would not think about it as a 6x9 cell. the war on drugs has been about punishing and deterring. have we failed? have we succeeded? >> i think we failed in a lot of places. you, i think, are an exception to the rule, anthony. i don't think a lot of people get a degree. i don't think they get a master's degree, that's for sure. i think they come out with alarming recidivism rates in this country. you can watch the programs on television that show the gang-related activity, the segregation that exists in these societies, because they are their own societies, and they're not rehabilitation for the most part. yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but for a lot of people,
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