that's something to consider when you talk about a transition in the party to younger base, they brought in all these younger voters. it might be a mismatch. >> but if hillary clinton doesn't run, and we assume she's going to run, assuming she's healthy. >> right. >> if she doesn't run, do you think he would run? >> the way i look at these guys is they're running until they say they're not running. unless you rule it out, you're basically you're running. that is the process of running. right? you do all the things, you make sure the media talk about you, you don't rule it out. you start organizing. you do all those things. so in my mind he's running and hillary clinton is running even though they haven't publicly declared. and at the point where they say, okay, i'm not running, that means they lost. i think that's the sort of useful way to look -- >> it must be frustrating. he's been vice president for five years. as ryan says, a good vice president, five years. to see all these obama folks now, for all practical purposes,