permian, the permian would probably be the third largest member of opec on its own at this point. i mean, we never thought -- i joined the u.s. government right after 9/11. we never thought we would have this resource endowment in the united states. we really saw ourselves as perpetually dependent on foreign supply. so this is explosive growth of american production has been an enormous game changer. but it's really the story of like individual companies and their entrepreneurial spirit. >> reporter: do you make the link between global independence or growing independence and climate change? >> i do think there's this kind of general malaise about energy, about investment in energy because there's this view of maybe we're not going to need a few decades out. maybe this is potentially a dying industry. and so i do think that there's kind of a dark cloud hanging over the energy sector. >> despite the storm clouds
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