Doug emhoff is Making History of his own. What is your job . As he redefines an old role for a new generation. Theres this toxicity, this masculine idea of what a man is. A father. Its the kids initials. I just really wanted a reminder of whats important to me. Who with the Vice President is marking many firsts. This is very emotional to be able to do this. Reporter while still trying to make time for each other. Were not each others chief of staff. Were husband and wife. Its the opportunity of a lifetime for the former Entertainment Lawyer who gave up his job to support his wife. Men need to support women. We talk to people in politics and pop culture, and find out what its like to be them. Now being the second gentleman. Whats it like to be The First Second gentleman . Im only The First Second gentleman because the country elected the first woman Vice President , so i look at it really mostly in that lens. Im here because im her husband. Im here to support her. So help me god. Reporter but hes also rewriting Unspoken Rules and road maps largely designed by men for women. Theres a library at the residence where we live, and its i think every single book ever written by a Vice President about a Vice President about the vice presidency, and our favorite ones title is Vice President s and second ladies. And think about it. Were going to need a new book because theres now a man in this role, and i say half jokingly i may be the first, i better not be the last. What do you think that sort of title or the headline of that book should be . It should not even be a big deal that im a man going forward. We need to have more women in leadership. There needs to be more women in government, more women in the business world, more women in communications. More women in the military, you name it. So i want to be in a world where this is not unique. This is not unique at all. Reporter but for now, it is unique, which means deciding whether hell take on some of the traditional duties like Party Planning and holiday decorating that americans think of when they think about first and second ladies. Picking the china patterns and arranging the dinners and doing more of the social aspects. Do you do any of that . Things like that well do together. My wife and i, the Vice President , but because of the circumstances in which we took office and the time, really mostly focused on covid and vaccinations and just fanning out across the country. To see what was going on, and a lot of what i do is listen. A lot of small group meetings, hear what was happening right on the ground, and bring it back to the administration. There hasnt been a lot of time for the ceremonial part. Maybe there will be moving forward. Is there any part of you that thought i better do the ceremonial stuff because thats what a woman would do . I dont want to genderize it. I think were a married couple, and we do a lot of these things together, so if theres things that we need to pick out or the decor decorations, or having an event, ill give my input, but its like how we are as a typical married couple, what we will do in our other life. We looked at things together. We pick it out, and were both busy, and we move on. So im not trying to make it where this is my job. What is your job . First and foremost is to support her. We work in an office called office of the Vice President and this office that youre sitting in is really here to support the Vice President , support the president , support the administration any way we can. In addition to being her husband. Since Abigail Adams in 1779, a Vice President s spouse was a woman. Emhoff calls one of those women his mentor, now first lady jill biden. Was there a crash course when you came into this . I know there was no manual to be the second gentleman because it didnt exist before, but to be the second spouse . Theres no manual, and dr. Biden said as much to me because i did ask her, well, you had this role, what can i expect . She said, first, you wont believe me if i told you, and two, its just going to be different for you because youre a man, and shes a woman, and youre the first one. And kind of the times were in right now. But just be yourself. Be authentic, and support her. The term second lady first used in the 1890s, but there wasnt much of a public role until pat nixon started traveling independent of her husband to promote causes. There are now five living former second ladies, marilyn quail, tipper gore, lynne cheney, jill biden and karen pence. Whod you talk to . I talked to mrs. Pence. Was she helpful . She was, she was. We had a very nice conversation. What was the most important advice she gave you . She was very helpful because having been in the residence right before, theres a lot of just, you know, its nonintuitive things that happen living in this type of situation. Like what . That she was very helpful with. Just from paying the bills, how does the food get in and just, youve seen a lot of the security. So just the basics of evidence everyday life, ver helpful on. Of course ive talked to our now first lady many times. I talked to tipper gore as well. Whatd she tell you . She just had a great Historical Perspective on the residence and what it was like to raise a family there and just some of the just the history of it because i really wanted to get a sense of what i was getting into. Reporter emhoff has had a sense of what he was getting into from the beginning. We cannot delay or deny individuals their civil rights. Reporter he met the now Vice President later in life when she was a rising political star and he was a successful corporate and Entertainment Lawyer. A lot of couples in politics, they get together young and they kind of work their way up the ladder together. You and the Vice President met as adults, well into adulthood. Yes. And she was already the Attorney General of the state of california. Yeah. You never had anonymity with her, meaning, as a couple, from the minute you met, it was already a relationship in The Public Eye. But not like this. People knew her. It was funny because she was living in San Francisco at the beginning, and i was living in l. A. , and id been an Entertainment Lawyer for a long time, so wed be in l. A. , and people would come up to me and say, hey, doug, hows it going . How does everyone know you . You know, i was kip of somebody here in this town before i met you. It was pretty funny to have had her see that so we were able to have a normal kind of trajectory on the relationship in those early days. We can go to dinner, go to Movies Earnings appeared maybe a few people would come and say hi and take a picture or two, but nothing like now. He left his law firm in the days after the election and now has his own office in the white house complex. Up there is the second gentleman wood cutout. Where he displays proud possessions like this sign he says was given to him during the 2020 campaign made by a veteran suffering from posttraumatic stress. They presented me with the second gentleman sign. I said, well, i cant take this, we havent won. Okay, if we win, im going to put that in my office. So i promise made, promise kept. So tell me about this photo. So this is the first flight that we both took on air force 2 ever, so the first flight ever was together, and this was that moment after we walked up this flight of stairs, which is surprisingly steep and very windy, and so of course the whole way up youre thinking, oh, my goodness i better not, you know, trip or anything. And then you get to the top and its that moment that weve all seen hundreds of times of president s and first ladies and Vice President s and second ladies just doing that turnaround, and here we are doing it. It was was it out of body . It was kind of one of those surreal, overwhelming moments, and theres no theres no Instruction Manual for Something Like this, but i just love her eyes. You can just see the smile and just the pride. Coming up let me show you this, its probably one of my favorite spots here. Our Exclusive Tour of the Naval Observatory Grounds where the second couple lives and the second gentlemans tattoos. Were you sober . Ish. [ laughter ] i choose airborne. Unlike some others, airborne gives you vitamin c and much more. Its an in 1 immune support formula. Airborne. Do more. Good checkup . No, great checkup. Nailed it again keep up the good work for great checkups, crest has you covered. Because crest prohealth protects 100 of your mouth for 24 hours. 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This is run by the navy. Yeah, this is owned by the navy. And it was the home of the head admiral of the navy for all that time up until 1977 when the Vice President s families started living here, and were on a naval base. This is a working naval base, most of which is the atomic clock, where they keep the exact time of the United States. We went for a tour of the grounds steeped in history. So on my left is one of my favorite things. The swing . Its a swing. And theres a plaque, and it says joe loves jill. I have never sat on it because i dont want to break it. Let me show you this. This is well, first of all, this framing, its so pretty. He took us to the family heritage garden, a quiet place of reflection that honors previous Vice President ial families and their pets. Oh, wow. Millie. President h. W. Bush was Vice President and they lived here for eight years. Are you scared that i actually remembered the name of his dog . I love it, i love it. [ laughter ] sometimes if you just sit in here knowing that youre literally amongst history and its such a great, Beautiful Contemplative place to think about, you know, whats happening right now. How often do your kids get here . Not enough. Not enough. I mean, theyre grown people. Emhoff has two Adult Children from a previous marriage to kirsten emhoff, they divorced when their kids were young. Ella is 23, a Fashion Designer and model in new york who became an influencer of sorts during the 2020 campaign. And 28yearold cole is regally engaged and working in hollywood. How have they adjusted to being in The Public Eye, even though theyre not here, theyre emhoffs. Id say ellas, you know, in The Public Eye with her career. I think shes out there. Im so proud of her, im still her dad so im always i see what shes doing, and im always just thinking about her as her dad. Coles doing his thing. Hes getting married next year. Hes also in the entertainment industry, so we talk a lot. I dont see him as much as i can, but were talking at least four or five times a week face timing, texting. One of the things i love, ill be walking in and as we now know, the v. P. Cant text. Shes on the phone with the kids. Ill come in ask shes laughing. Oh, whos that . Its ella or cole. Normal, we wanted to be parents first. And as intense as this whole thing is, we want them to know were still there for them as their parents. Yeah. Yeah. Thats the goal. But its hard to jump on a plane and go see them if theyre having a bad day or have them come here. Its probably easier to have them come here. It is, but a lot of the schedule, moving parts and theyre adults. Theyve got busy theyve got jobs and busy lives, so id say that can be the toughest part, but id say if i was still a lawyer back in l. A. , id probably be saying the same thing. Yeah, right. Show me your tattoos. You talked about ill show you one. This is very simple. Ill show you two. Its the kids initials, i got this shortly after kirsten and i separated. I just really wanted a reminder of whats important to me, and it was cole and ella, and i just wanted a visceral reminder of them. So cole is coltrane, and ella is ella fillings gerald. We were very much into the jazz. Were you always a tattoo guy . No. So what made you wake up one day and say, oh, im going to get my kids initials on my wrist. Many people who got tattoos. It was a whim. Were you sober . Ish. [ laughter ] and i just decided on the spur of the moment, you know what . This is something i want to do. I just wanted to make sure i was focused on the most important thing in my life, which was the children and they still are. The other one, you can tell me, its personal to the vp and i. Its personal to me. It has to do with the year you were born . Its in reference to the year we were born, 1964. How many days apart are you . Seven. It took us 40 some odd years to finally meet, but here we are. This is all part of the residence. Reporter he takes daily walks on the grounds here, now with his position and the secret Service Detail with it, its one of the only places he can be outside and alone. For instance, if i wanted to just go out and grab a cup of coffee, youve got to go with all the security. But i can walk out here by yourself. By myself. So i dont have to call them up and say im going out. So this is it. I love to walk, and so a lot of times ill just kind of walk and and just take it in and take in the beautiful nature here. Do you have to tell them im going outside to take a walk . Or do you just go and then they just know . They just know. If you go right outside the gate, then you have to tell them, and i joke its almost like one of those movies, like truman show where you cant walk past that other side . Ill have had family here and helping them out with their bags and maybe their car is 20 feet from the gate at the front. Im like, im so sorry. I cant do this. Otherwise its going to take 20 minutes and ive got to call up the crew, and then all these cars show up. This is the only place when were on these grounds not on the navy base side but on the residence side that we can walk out here. Now, of course they know and theyll theyre watching. The political Immigration Debate has literally come to your doorstep right over there. The measure of what were doing to bus people from the rio grande valley, from the Border Region to washington, d. C. Reporter the area just outside the gates of the Naval Observatory Made Headlines after Texas Governor greg abbott sent busloads of migrants to the Vice President s residence and left them on the sidewalk. Republicans slammed Kamala Harris for mismanaging the border, addressing Root Immigration causes in Central And South America is in her portfolio. Its shameful. These are human beings. These are people, not palms, anand pawns, and leaders, governors of state knead to focus on the issue at hand and not use these folks who are fleeing immense violence and cruelty to escape. He says its his wife, the Vice President , who helps him keep it real. Okay, so what does she call you again . Dougie. That was a good imitation. It doesnt matter where we are, on stage in front of the team, its like dougie or my dougie as shes adjusting my collar and checking things out. But your official title is second gentleman. Oh, that, thats her when shes having fun with my title. Shell say scdotus. Its hard to say. Doi saw God Bless You . [ laughter ] yeah. Being the second gentleman means taking the role seriously but not always taking himself too seriously. [ laughter ] so almost two years in, do you feel like youve got a handle on what this job is, what this new job is . Its evolving, and it will keep evolving, but the constant is im here for her, and that hasnt changed, and that will never change. This is the Vice President s garden or at least part of it. Well have more from our Exclusive Tour of the naval observatory later, but up next, being a man who wants to help redefine masculinity. I dont know if youve heard this, but sometimes men have some fragile egos. I read about that. Millions have made the switch from the big three to the Best Kept Secret in wireless Xfinity Mobile that means millions are saving hundreds a year with the fastest mobile service. And now, introducing, the best price for two lines of unlimited. Just 30 per line there are millions of happy campers out there. And this is the perfect time to join them. Save hundreds a year over tmobile, verizon, and at t with Xfinity Mobile, and for a limited time get 400 off a new eligible 5g phone. Switch today. Being the second gentleman means bending gender roles every day. You had a pretty highpowered career in los angeles, an Entertainment Lawyer. You walked away from that to come here and support your wife. I dont know if youve heard this, but sometimes men have some fragile egos. I read about that. Did yours get bruised at all in all candor . I have a very healthy ego. Im very confident, and i also realize this was an Incredible Opportunity for the country to have the first woman Vice President and to have a man in this role, so yes, i love my career. I was very successful and i do miss it at times, but if i was going to leave, what better reason to leave than this . And to support her, and we talked about it and we made that decision together that it was worthwhile me taking this pretty major step back from what i was doing. I used the word support, and i think there were a lot of men who intellectually want to support their female partners and then when it gets to that point, its hard. Yeah. Its hard on your ego. You say you have a healthy ego. Have there been moments like that . Yeah, like i said, you have to put your ego aside, though, and its not about you. Ill be giving speeches, and one of the things i say is men need to support women. Dont just think youre being supportive. Dont just say youre being supportive. Be supportive. One, its the right thing to do, and then, men, okay, you need to actually do it. Dont just think youre doing it, and then the women in the audience look around smiling. Sometimes its hard, and sometimes its not what you expect, but its the right thing to do, and if i can set an example doing it, im very grateful for that. Can women ever reach full equality without men thinking and acting the way you are right now . I think men need to look at women as equals and treat them, and its not an either or. Its not a zero sum game. When we lift up women, were going to lift up our economy. Were going to lift up everything. Its not at the detriment of men, so thats what we need. There is still a bit of a stigma with the notion of men taking a step back and being openly supportive of a woman who has a bigger role and a bigger job than the man does. Are you trying to intentionally destigmatize that . Definitely, definitely. You think about it . I do. Not at the beginning because this was a nobrainer, but now that im in the role and you really see like not all men naturally would do this and would push back, and then theres this toxicity, this masculine idea of what a man is thats out there that is just not correct, and thats something that you really see when youre doing this, and its something i just want to push back on. How do you define masculinity . Masculinity is loving your family, caring about your family and being there for your family and supporting them each and every way. No one would say im not tough, and no one would ever accuse me of not being there and sticking up for those that i love, but i also care about people, im compassionate, empathetic. Were kind of mixing up this concept that if somehow a man shows kindness or empathy or consideration for others, thats somehow not masculine, and that is just not okay. Thats just not true. A Lesson Emhoff says he learned growing up in new jersey from watching his father michael. Hes just such a strong role model for me, and he was a woman shoe designer, and he was strong and tough, but sensitive and creative and artistic, yet, you know, were talking about masculinity, i think my father is a masculine man, and he just taught me like its okay to, you know, focus on your family, be there for your family no matter what. Do you ever catch yourself thinking what would a woman do in this situation . Not what a woman would do, but, like, how would a woman be perceived or covered . Im very mindful of that. Im very mindful of like the fact im sitting here with you and the fact that sometimes we get attention for doing things that others have done and maybe didnt get the same attention. There was a great line that seth meyers used when your wife was on. My husband, doug and i, The First Second gentleman of the United States. [ cheers and applause ] i do want to focus i feel like were not focusing enough on what white men have accomplished with your rise. [ laughter ] i know, its exactly we have jokes about that too. Were laughing, but it should not we should get to a point where thats not funny and were its not unique to have someone like Kamala Harris as a Vice President. Now youve been here for almost two years and youve obviously been around your wife as a public figure since really since you met. Do you think that the criticism of your wife is more intense because shes a woman . I dont even focus on the criticism. I just focus on her impact. Ive traveled to this is not about like the specific criticism of her, but just in terms of what you see when it comes to gender. Yeah, probably. But so what . Im focused on the flip side of that, the impact shes making, the impact that i see every time i travel. I cant tell you how many young girls come up and tell me how much Kamala Harris means to them, fathers who come up to me and say, i didnt even vote for you, but my daughter is so inspired by Kamala Harris because shes the first woman Vice President and all the work that shes doing. Up next this is a first . Being jewish in this role. Ive got to tell you, there were tears. It was very emotional to be able to do this. Im sure. [sfx stomach gurgling] its nothing. Sounds like something. When you have nausea, heartburn, indigestion, upset stomach, diarrhea. Pepto bismol coats and soothes for fast relief. When you need it most. This rental car is so boring to drive. Lets be honest. The rentacar industry is the definition of boring. And the reason can be found in the name itself. Rent a car. You dont want a friend. You want the friend. You dont want a job. You want the job. 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This is one of the few times because of her work and being in the west wing or being in her cars and traveling, its not like you get to actually see outside and be outside. Breathe fresh air. There will be times when shes here and i say im going to go out and do something for a couple of hours. I come back. Shes still there reading her stuff, so when shes there, ill maybe sit here and look at my stuff, once in a while ill nod and say hi. How you doing over there, not a bad place to unwind. Emhoff isnt just The First Second gentleman, hes the first jewish spouse of any president or Vice President. American jews everywhere, and everyone else Around The World watching, it is such an honor to be here tonight as The First Second gentleman of the United States. This is a first. This is a mezuzah. It is a fix to entrances of jewish houses to fulfill the commandment of writing the word of god on the door of their home. This particular one has a lot of historic significance. It came from a temple in atlanta, a temple in which Martin Luther king preached at. I knew when we moved here, we were going to have a mezuzah, we did some research. It came to our attention that this historic mezuzah that survived a fire apparently at the temple. So my parents, both kids, and their others were able to be here and participate in the ceremony. And i got to tell you there were tears. It was very emotional to be able to do this. Im sure. And its the first ever on the Vice President s residence or the white house. Being with my parents who are in their 80s, think about their lifetime, they were born in the 30s and 40s, and what theyve seen and experienced to be able to have their son be the first jewish person married to a Vice President or a president , and then to just live openly as a jew. Proudly. Proudly and openly, which is how im doing this. And it just when they saw that, it just really hit them hard. That was very emotional. What does it mean to you that you are the first jewish person in this role . And then we will say the blessings. Its something i taye vehicle seriously. At first when i came into this role, i thought being a man would be the biggest deal, and it is, weve had talk about that. But just kind of 1a is being jewish in this role. And it really hit me early on when we did our virtual seder, and we had no idea what to expect. We just thought wed do it and put it out there. Tens of thousands of people saw it and immediately after everywhere i went, jewish people were coming up to me. I never thought i would see the day when a jewish person was in this position just kind of living their life openly. This is it just meant so much. Grew up in the suburbs of jersey, going to grandmas house in brooklyn for the holidays, and i joke, but its a common experience. Its the plastic covering on the couch. Its the burnt brisket. Its my moms electric menorah, its my threepiece, you know, velour brown bar mitzvah suit. Its all those cultural experiences, going to jewish summer camp and i was athlete of the year at a jewish summer camp. And like its the stuff that resonates and its not overly talking about the religion or focused on israel. Its just focused on our common, you know, shared experience. Hes held a menorah lighting here during hanukkah and hosted an Interfaith Group of students for rosh hashanah, the jewish new year. It might be that people who arent jewish might not get what a big deal it is. I think its a big deal, but also theres a black woman living here as well. And so when you have that realization when we host groups and, again, the representation of her matters so much. Who we are has never been in here or the these halls, and its just so it gets people its emotional. Its emotional for me just talking about it right now. Even more so he says, right now as antisemitism is on the rise in america. Antisemitism is everywhere right now. Its literally out in the open. People arent hiding it. Theyre saying the quiet parts, not out loud, theyre screaming the quiet parts right now. I can say antisemitic things and adidas cant drop me, now what . We spoke before kanye wests grotesque Rants Denigrating Jews spread like wildfire, spurring events like this, an antisemitic banner unfurled off the bridge over the 405, a major highway in los angeles, emhoffs adopted hometown. He released a statement saying, quote, we must all stand united and speak out against antisemitism. No person of any faith should have to fear violence because of what they believe. Have you been the victim of antisemitism . Its interesting, i have been around it when people dont realize im jewish, and a lot of times in the business, in my Business Career ill be in a room and people are having their drinks and talking and then someone will make an antisemitic remark not realizing that im jewish. And what do you do . And sometimes i would say something. Sometimes i should have and i didnt, depending on the circumstance, and i look back now and im mad still. I wish theres a few moments that i wish i would have said something, but youre young. Youre in the business world, and you just dont know how to react, and you know, thats why im always going to speak out and live the way im living right now. Up next, the second gentleman on the road and whats next for the second couple. Would you want to be the first first gentleman . Lets try the tissue test. Ooof, still yellow. Theres toothpaste white and theres crest 3d whitestrips white. 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Jude with your debit or credit card for only 19, a month and well send you this st. Jude tshirt. The donors, they may not know it, but they helped heal my son. Suffering from sinus congestion, especially at night . Try vicks sinex for instant relief that lasts up to 12 hours. Vicks sinex targets congestion at the source, relieving Nasal Congestion and sinus pressure by reducing swelling in the sinuses. Try vicks sinex. Ladies and gentlemen, the second gentleman. Mr. Emhoff. Being the second gentleman means hitting the road for the administration. As second gentleman, i get to travel around the entire country. Ive been to 40 states already, and i just i just listen. I get to meet folks, and i get to hear whats going on. This trip, emhoff joined the Education Secretary in philadelphia. This administration, simply put, supports teachers, and we have your back. Why education . I think, look, we need to support our teachers. Ive been teaching myself parttime, and also traveling the country. I met so many teachers, especially during the height of the pandemic, who had to completely readjust what theyre doing. Kids, how theyre dealing with them, and also just the Mental Health aspect for our children and for the teachers themselves. So this is something that ive always been passionate about. You mentioned my wife, the Vice President. Thats kind of cool to say. [ laughter ] im the only person in history who is able to say that. You said that when you come home at the end of the day, your wife, the Vice President , says, so, dougy, what did you do today . Every time i come home. Shell do it today. Are you in some ways your eyes and ears on issues that you both care about . Not really. First of all, im her husband first and foremost. So as, you know, professional couples will do, tell me about your day, tell me about your day. But since youre im working in the administration, its great because i do all these events. Its not like im sitting there as her eyes and ears, but almost like youre the Vice President. Im out there on behalf of this administration. And im going to tell you whats going on so we can turn that into action. He represents america on the world stage, too. Ive done three solo trips abroad, leading president ial delegations. Whats that like . Its incredible. Im just proud to represent my country. Youre out there on behalf of the president of the United States, representing the country. It was one for the paralympics in japan, and at that time during covid, i was one of the few people in the stadium. So i really felt like i was there on behalf of the entire country. Just this overwhelming sense of pride, wearing that usa jacket, holding the flag, and rooting on our amazing athletes. Are there times where youre like, wait a minute, like yesterday, i was an Entertainment Lawyer. What am i doing leading an International Delegation . I go further back. Im just this kid from Central Jersey playing little league. And here i am, representing the United States. But you never had political ambitions. No. I was a practicing attorney, and, again, i take it seriously. And those skills that you have as a lawyer, the research, study, and curiosity. You have to bring that to the table. While his legal career is on hold, emhoff is wearing a new hat, professor at georgetown law. Why did you want to start teaching when you got here to washington . I wanted to keep a toe in the legal profession. When this opportunity came up, it was great, because i had always thought at some point i would love to teach law school, at least parttime. And so yeah, its a great way to stay engaged in the legal field. Its a great way to be around a bunch of smart, young law students on their way to being lawyers. As a lawyer for so long, i always thought, wow, if i just got them right before they got to the firm, i could tell them a few things. So when they got to the firm, its just been great. Ing from go the classroom to lawyer, thats the theme of my class. He also gets some fun assignments, like representing his wife here at the annual womens congressional Softball Game where i happened to be one of the announcers. It all comes down to this game. Youre walking around, people are asking for selfies. Whats the thing that people say to you the most when youre out and about . Thank you. Thank the president. Let kamala know i said hi. Some say we love ella, but its always gratitude, and its good, because its good intel on what were doing. Its breaking through. Its nice, but im also using it as a way to get feedback. Do you get honest feedback . Yeah, i think people feel like they can talk to me, maybe more than some of the others. I havent been in politics. Speaking of politics, hes very careful not to get ahead of, well, anything. The first gentleman of the United States. Second. Second gentleman. [ laughter ] 12 second ladies went on to become first ladies. Would you want to be the first first gentleman . Right now, im just focused on being The First Second gentleman, and thats all im focused on. Focused on supporting his wife, the Vice President. Focused on representing his country, and focused on his role, which has already earned him a place in history. \s a must in your Medicine Cabinet less sick days cold coming on . Zicam is the number one Cold Shortening brand highly recommend it zifans love zicams unique zinc formula. It shortens colds zicam. Zinc that cold two loads of snot covered laundry. Only one will be sanitized. Wait, what . Adding lysol Laundry Sanitizer kills 99. 9 of Bacteria Detergent alone, cant. My name is austin james. As a musician living with diabetes, fingersticks can be a real challenge. 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