And well get the global picture with the woman whos literally written the book on the guidelines to Mental Health at work thats dr aiysha malik from the World Health Organization. And shes a pioneer of wellbeing at work, driving the issue to the top tables of Corporate Power for nearly a decade. Jen fisher of deloitte tells us the perils, the pitfalls and the potential of tackling these conditions at the highest ranks of Corporate Power. Wherever yourejoining me from around the world, once again, a big hello and a warm welcome to the show. Lost working days to anxiety and depression is costing the Global Economy some 1 trillion a year. Thats according to the World Health Organization. Lots of people dont want to struggle out of bed on a Monday Morning or have a problem with their team at work. But in the last few years, the global covid pandemic may have made our Mental Health worse. In fact, there was a 25 increase in cases of depression and anxiety in the first year of the pandemic. Then came the opening back up, another big change, triggering what was called the Great Resignation many workers deciding theyd had enough and couldnt face going back to the office. The World Health Organization estimates that one in six, or 15 , of working age adults have some kind of Mental Health condition, estimating that 12 billion working days are lost to depression and anxiety every year. One of those whos been very open about his struggle with anxiety and depression is my first guest. Hes the co founder and president of the Silicon Valley based financing platform earnup. He was the Chief Executive running the company, but during the pandemic, his Mental Health which was already suffering took an even greater turn for the worse. Matthew cooper, co founder of earnup, thank you forjoining us. Thank you for having me, tadhg. Its great to be here. Matthew, from the outside, your life would have looked like the Great American adventure the fabled start up entrepreneur running a successful company. But the reality was different, wasnt it . When did things start to get troubling for you . Yeah, so i guess i will say that. Things really started to get more challenging for me in. Probably going back to about 2018 2017, 2018. Some of the issues ive dealt with personally for a long time, in particular really severe anxiety and occasional Panic Attacks, they started to get more frequent and they started lasting a lot longer. Can you describe what those Panic Attacks were like . For me, the sensation. Often would feel random. I would have been feeling a base level of tension in my body, like in my chest and in my gut, usually for a few days, often obsessing over something. Often for me, it would be work related, but it could also be personal, like a relational confrontation that had happened in my life. And that tension would sort of build over a few days and then at some Point Willjust start to spiral, and that spiralling for me can feeljust like a Difficulty Breathing and the thoughts, especially becoming the sensation that im going to die, where, like, i cant breathe, this will never stop, its just going to keep getting worse. And did your colleagues know the extent of what you were going through . In hindsight, i wish i had been in a place where i felt comfortable to share more broadly at that time. So, the short answer is no. My co founder knew everything and was incredibly supportive. Yes, i think the mentality i had at the time was certainly one of feeling ashamed and very vulnerable for not being able to just get the work done, just push through it like i always had. Youve been very open about this, and its an area thats full of stigma. Why was being transparent important to you . Writing publicly and speaking publicly, both speaking was to the company that i was in and to the board you know, it wasnt vague, it was very specific, you know, on why i chose to leave, and then sharing that more publicly. I live in a very privileged bubble, it turns out, related to Mental Health issues. And that is a combination of geography you know, being in california at that time, which has its own culture around health compared to many other parts of the world and also being like a white Collar Worker in the technologies field, which also has more than most industries taken on this banner of Workplace Health and wellness. And finally, matthew, how are you doing now . I am in a much better place today than i was four years ago. I still have challenges with anxiety where it will get pretty intense and can be debilitating. However, those dont tend to last as long and they have not generally fallen into the ongoing Panic Attacks or Suicidal Ideation area for a number of years, so i feel very grateful for that, even if i wish it would just go away entirely and i could just live a life free from debilitating fear. Its great to feel like its less a part of my life. I also work less hours and feel very comfortable in that, where i think when i was working less hours, even before covid, i felt a lot of guilt and pressure that i was letting myself down, or the world down, or people would judge me. Now, i think as i set more boundaries around my work im currently working part time that feels really good. It feels good to have work feel more like its a part of my life and not this overwhelming, consumptive part of my life. Matthew cooper of earnup, thank you so much for sharing your story with us on talking business. Yeah, youre welcome. Its a pleasure to be here. Well, you dont have to be a Silicon Valley entrepreneur to have Mental Health struggles. My next guest says its a global issue and she should know. Shes the expert on Mental Health at work for the World Health Organization, and shes written their guidelines on the issue. Dr aiysha malik, thank you forjoining us on talking business. Lets clarify exactly what were talking about here. I know your data suggests that 15 of working age people have a Mental Health disorder. What exactly does that mean . Yeah, thanks for the question, tadhg. So, having a Mental Health condition is where we have a negative impact on our thoughts, the way we feel or the way that we behave to an extent that it impacts us in our daily life so, for example, our ability to participate in work, our ability to be with our families or even at school. And examples of Mental Health conditions can include things like anxiety and depression, which people may have heard about, which are the most commonly occurring conditions, and it can also include things like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, which are more severe Mental Health conditions. Many of us can have fleeting moments of poor Mental Health. Doesnt necessarily mean we have a Mental Health condition, but it might be that were experiencing a high level of temporary stress. And what are the Warning Signs that we as individuals should be looking out for, or our employer should be looking out for, to say that this is actually a problem that requires attention . Its interesting, because work itself is something that can protect our Mental Health as well as undermine it. One thing thats very common as an indicator at work is performance or productivity. So it might be that theres a shift in how well youre able to do yourjob, whether thats making more mistakes, whether thats being slower. You might also notice a change in your motivation or willingness to be at work. So perhaps it feels harder to go into work or you have a worry or anxiety about being there. So, that can manifest in different ways. It could be that you start turning up to work later, or it could be that youre having to take absences from work as well. Changes can also be more subtle, so at the relational or behavioural level as well. You might notice that youre reacting more to things that normally wouldnt have caused you stress at work but now seem to be causing you more stress than normal, or you might notice that your patience or irritation with interactions at work has changed in some way. So those are some of the individual signs, as well as some of the workplace signs. And again, not specific to any one Mental Health condition, but an example of something that could be common across quite a few. Would you say its getting worse as an issue overall, or are we perhaps becoming more aware of it and were willing to put up our hand and say we need help . Yeah, thats a really Great Question because i think its both and. So, in 2020, when the pandemic hit us worldwide, who looked at, how were Mental Health conditions changing, if anything, during that period . And what we actually saw from the data was that there was at least a 25 increase in anxiety and depression worldwide, so Mental Health conditions were going up, it seemed. Now, that makes a lot of sense because one of the biggest risk factors for Mental Health conditions is adversity, and so everybody was going through quite a substantial adversity during that period. And what if a Mental Health condition has nothing to do with work, if it comes from your private life but is being reflected in your working life . Is that something employers should get involved with . Have they a right to ask you if youre suffering from issues in your personal life . I really like that question, because when we talk about Mental Health at work, i think the stereotype that many people have is that were just talking about the fact that work must be negatively impacting our Mental Health, or its causing us a lot of stress, so the idea that work can affect anyone regardless of what their Mental Health status is. But what we often dont talk about are people who actually live with Mental Health conditions, who are employed or who are trying to get employed in some way. So this is a population that im very happy to draw attention to, because according to the United Nations convention for the rights of persons with disabilities, People Living with disabilities do have certain rights when it comes to being protected at work. And we saw from the who guidelines, which we published in 2022, we made recommendations around how People Living with Mental Health conditions can be supported at work. And so in our perspective, regardless of whether work has causally contributed to your Mental Health or not, people deserve to be under good Working Conditions and it benefits employers as well, because a Healthy Workforce means a workforce thats contributing to your goals as an organisation as well. The culture of work has also changed enormouslyjust over the last generation. So many more of us these days are freelancers, were in the gig economy. What impact do you see that having on Mental Health at work . Yeah, Great Question, really interesting question, because the informal economy or people in these more precarious working circumstances are actually the largest workforce we have in the world. Theres almost 61 of people are in this informal economy, which is where you work without regulation or protection from the state. What we know is things like precarious work, Financial Insecurity which this type of work could generate and the sense ofjob insecurity which this type of work can generate does have an impact on Mental Health because its causing a perpetual level of stress. The other issue that we have is if you are somebody in that workforce and you are someone where your particular employment doesnt offer protections, it then makes it quite difficult for you to take opportunities such as having paid sick leave. That doesnt become an option any more, and so youre having to continue to work even if youre struggling through it. So there is a lot of information that we still need in terms of whats actually going to work for people in this type of Employment Circumstance when it comes to protecting their Mental Health at work. The data isnt there yet, and so we really need to see what would be effective. But is there a risk that were overloading managers, perhaps even creating more stressful workloads, by asking them to do so much . Thats a really good question. Managers in general workplaces, for me, remind me of general physicians or primary care doctors in the Health Workforce youre the gatekeeper for everything. I think the tricky thing that we have when it comes to managers and supervisors is the idea that a lot of people are promoted because theyre good at theirjob or theyve been in the job for many years and have built up experience, but they dont usually get recruited on the basis of having the people skills to lead others. And what were missing here is the opportunity to skill up managers to be able to do that. Finally, dr malik, if someone is watching this and they relate to the symptoms that weve been talking about, or perhaps they see symptoms like that in their colleagues or their bosses, what simple advice would you have for them . Thanks, tadgh. So i think if you recognise in yourself that you might be experiencing some difficulties with your Mental Health, there are a couple of different options available to you. The first one is go talk to your primary Health Provider and have that discussion with them, to see if theres any support that they might be able to offer you or refer you to. If it feels difficult to talk to your primary care provider, you could talk to someone you trust and have that conversation with them and see if that conversation takes you in a direction of either going to your Health Worker or maybe taking some actions for yourself to support your Mental Health. Now, if you notice it in a colleague, depending on the quality of your relationship with that person, you might offer to take them for a coffee or a lunch or that kind of a circumstance, tojust ask, how are they doing . , and see if they open up. Now, its important to not pressure people to open up because a lot of people do not feel safe to disclose their Mental Health in the context of work. But i think many people would appreciate being asked, how are you . , if they were going through a difficult time. Dr aiysha malik, thank you forjoining us. Nice to be here. Thank you so much. And if you want even more information about Mental Health, theres a lot of it on the bbc Action Line Website thats bbc. Co. Uk actionline. Well, nearly ten years ago, my next guest became the worlds first Chief Wellbeing Officer at the Global Business services giant deloitte. Even today, that might sound like an odd job title. Back then, it was revolutionary. Sitting in the job alongside the Chief Executive officer and the chief operating officer, she took wellbeing to the top of the corporation. Today, shes the companys Human Sustainability Leader. Jen fisher of deloitte, thank you forjoining me. Thanks for having me. Great to be here. You were the worlds first Chief Wellbeing Officer. Youre now Human Sustainability Leader at deloitte. But a decade ago, when you took on that role, what was the first change that you wanted to make . Ten years ago, we werent talking about burnout in the workplace. And so as i was going through it, i didnt know what i was going through. Ifelt like i didnt have anyone to talk to. I felt like if i spoke up and asked for help that, somehow, that would be seen as a weakness or less than. And so in many ways, i processed my struggles with my Mental Health and otherwise as kind of a personalfailure or a personal weakness. And so i think for me coming into this role, it was really about the education, the tools, the resources, but more than anything, the permission that we needed to give to one another in the workplace to have these conversations and to reach out and to ask for the help that we need withoutjudgement and without fear. So, you took on the role after going through what some call burnout. What was that like for you . I liken it to the frog in a boiling pot of water. You know, its not like youre not burnt out one day and the next day you are. It is kind of this slow evolving process. And so did i know that i was struggling . Did i know that there was something wrong over a extended period of time . Did i not feel like myself . Did i know that i wasnt showing up the way that i wanted to . In both my personal life and my professional life, i was very reactive, but ijust felt like if i kept pushing through that somehow, magically, things would get better and they never do when you just continue to push through. You have to address them. Well, lets fast forward to today, thejob youre in now. Have you been able to measure the success of the initiatives you spearheaded when you took on this role . Certainly, you can measure success through, you know, the accessibility and the usage of some of the programmes and tools and resources that organisations provide for their people. That is definitely one way. Many, many organisations do some sort of annual or quarterly, you know, talent or hr, some sort of workforce feedback, right . And so theyre searching, looking for sentiment from their workforce. And so thats another way to kind of understand how the workforce is doing, how theyre feeling. Its also hard to measure. There arent real standardised metrics when it comes to understanding the wellbeing of the workforce. And while i think there has been some good progress, we havent really gotten to a place where we truly understand what is impacting peoples wellbeing at work. In australia, theyve just passed a law to allow people to disconnect from work. It does seem that, especially in the corporate world, were expected to be always responding to emails, to not give ourselves the right to turn off or ignore those Text Messages after hours. Are you saying that if your team has a big deadline, that people should not work late . So, look, i mean, ithink that that is a reaction and a response to the way that the workforce is feeling, that they are feeling like, you know, if they arent always on and always responsive, then they are being, you know, judged or their performance is being looked at through that lens, right . And so i think that its a really good indicator of how far this has gone, right . And the fact that we now truly need policy to step in, to say, hold on, there needs to be some true breaks between, you know, the way people work and the way people live. And so i think. Those are just examples of the workforce, you know, raising their hands, speaking out. I think were going to continue to see more of that, quite frankly, and i do think that its needed because we dont tend to change these things on our own. Even though it might be the right thing to do, we as human beings i mean, our Electronic Devices arent necessarily set up so that were like, oh, ill check that later. Theyre set up so were like, oh, ill check that now, you know . And so its very hard for us as human beings, just in our mindsets and our behaviours, to kind of like put those boundaries up. And so it almost needs to be done for us. So are you saying that at deloitte, if some of your teams have a big deadline coming up, that people should not work late, after 5pm or 6pm . First of all, i dont think that you can ever say that, but what i do think is giving the Workforce Flexibility and autonomy in some respects, to be able to decide some of these things for themselves. And so at deloitte, if you are working on a big project with a deadline thats tomorrow and there are things that need to get done, yes, absolutely, you need to come together as a team and deliver the project, whatever that looks like. But its not solely your responsibility. There are other team members and other team mates. However, i think whats more important than just that kind of one example, solo, is, what does the rest of the week or the month or the year look like . And how much autonomy and flexibility do i, jen, have to decide what that looks like . Because theres always going to be. Look, business is business, work is work. Theres always going to be times where you need to be more dialled in, and that might mean that you need to work until 9 00 at night. But as long as youre not working until 9. 00, 10. 00,11. 00,12. 00 at night, five days a week, six days a week, three weeks out of the month or however many weeks out of the year, look, the workforce is pretty resilient. People are. You know, i think theres this misconception that people dont want to work hard or that theyre lazy, and i think that thats untrue. I think that most people, if theyre doing meaningful work that they enjoy, want to work, right . And theyre going to work and theyre going to do a good job. But what they also want is to be able to have a life and be able to make some of these decisions and commitments for themselves and not feel like work takes over every aspect of their life. Jen fisher of deloitte, thank you forjoining us. Absolutely, thank you. Well, thats it for this week. I hope you enjoyed the show. Dont forget, you can keep up with the latest on our Global Economy on the bbc website or the smartphone app. You can also follow me on social media im tadthnright. Thanks for watching. Bye bye. Hello there. Saturday was a very cloudy day, but it was also very mild, thanks to South Westerly Winds bringing double digit temperatures across the whole of the uk. Now, we did see some rain move into Western Areas through the afternoon, and that rain was associated with this cloud, this Weather Front moving across the uk. Now, we do have a bump in the weatherfront, which means that the rain is going to get heavier over the next few hours as it pushes across the whole of wales and most of england as well. For northern england, Northern Ireland and scotland, therell be some clear spells and a few showers over the next few hours. These are the kind of temperatures well have to start the day on sunday. So it is going to be a mild start to the day, but very wet, particularly across england, with rain extensively. The rain quickly moving away from wales through the morning but really dragging its heels, i think, across east anglia and south east england, with the rain even hanging around into the early stages of the afternoon. Further northwards, though, therell be some sunshine and a few showers dotted around, but mostly a dry weather picture. Eventually we should see some brighter spells getting into east anglia and the south east, albeit very late in the day. Top temperatures, 15 degrees very, very mild for february. Now, we start the new working week on monday with another Weather Front moving eastwards. This one is going to be quite weak, just a few patches of Rain Crossing england. A ridge then moves in behind that. So sunny spells, just a few isolated showers coming into Western Scotland, but a lot of dry weather and a fair amount of sunshine to come through. On monday, top temperatures range from around 10 13 degrees celsius, which is still very mild for february. Middle part of the week, it then turns wet and windy, with several Weather Fronts moving from west to east across the uk. Now, on tuesday, this Weather Front starts off with some quite Heavy Rain For Scotland and Northern Ireland. As the front moves its way southwards and eastwards, it weakens, so the rain wont amount to too much as it works in across england and wales. Itll be quite a windy kind of day. Temperatures still mild thanks to those South Westerly Winds. A windier day overall to come on wednesday, the rain much heavier as well. Could see some localised Surface Water Flooding issues. Perhaps turning a bit brighter for Northern Ireland and Western Scotland late in the day. Temperatures 12 or 13 degrees, so still very mild. However, its going to get colder towards the end of the week as we start to see the winds coming in more from a west north westerly direction, and that will bring a return of some hill snow. Good morning. Welcome to breakfast with luxmy gopal and rogerjohnson. Our headlines today supporters of the russian Opposition Leader Alexei Navalny accuse moscow of trying to conceal evidence about his death after his family are unable to recover his body. After setbacks for ukraine in the war against russia, president bryden vows to make sure a new package of military supporters delivered to gear. Good morning. In sport, twists and turns in the premier League Title Race frustration for Pep Guardiola and for Hurling Haaland as matt is City Drop Points at home to chelsea. This british film in the three� s big night tonight. Looking ahead to who might be in up the big awards at the baftas. It has been a very wet night. There is a lot of rain around this morning as well. Some good news for the afternoon, looking a lot brighter. Its sunday february 18. Good morning to you if you have just joined us. Our main story The Family Of Putin critic Alexei Navalny have called on russian authorities to release his body, accusing Prison Bosses of trying to conceal evidence surrounding his death. His team leave the Opposition Leader was murdered, but Russias Foreign Ministry has rejected these claims. Our Eastern Europe correspondent Sarah Rainsford has this report. Ever since the death of Alexei Navalny, people have been leaving tributes