Bring a change to something cooler on its back edge. We start with the mild air in the south and east, outbreaks of rain heavy and persistent at times, and then something bright in the west later on, a mixture of sunshine and showers, and because it is turning colder, we will see the show is term wintry over the hills. Tempjust by the end of the afternoon, chile compared to now, but that is your weather. And thats bbc news at ten. Newsnight is just getting under way on bbc two. 0n bbc one, its time tojoin our colleagues for the news where you are. Goodnight. Wholly in pursuit of peace, or are mps playing politics with peoples lives . Tonight, ahead of key commons votes flushing out who supports an immediate ceasefire and who doesnt, well be joined by the Westminster Leader of the snp Stephen Flynn, and well also bejoined by senior diplomat and head of the Palestinian Mission to the uk. And well discuss the significance of the overnight shift in the us� s position, israels response, and the urgency of Peace Negotiations with the spokesperson from the embassy of israel and the former un Assistant Secretary General for human rights. And later in the programme whatever happened to wagner . After the death of its notorious leader Yevgeniy Prigohzin, the fate of russias company of mercenaries was a bit of a mystery. But newsnight can reveal what wagner is up to now. So there was a meeting in the kremlin fairly shortly after prigozhin� s mutiny after which it was decided that wagners Africa Operations would fall directly under the control of Russian Military intelligence. Good evening. The threat of an imminent Israeli Ground offensive in rafah, before the beginning of ramadan, which is on the evening of march 10th, has sharpened the political and indeed the royal response here in the uk. And the us, for the first time in the conflict, has put forward a Draft Un Security Council resolution for a temporary ceasefire as soon as practicable. The Resolution Says a major Ground Offensive would have serious implications for Regional Peace and security, and so should not proceed. Well come on to the un in a litle while. But first, tomorrow in the house of commons, an intense clash between the snp and labour is in prospect, as the snp tables its second motion for an immediate ceasefire which calls for an end to the collective punishment of the Palestinian People. A war crime as defined by the geneva convention. In a move to stop a possible second rebellion by dozens of labour mps rebellion by dozens of labour mps and other shadow frontbenchers, and with the knowledge that the Scottish Labour Conference at the weekend voted for an immediate ceasefire, keir starmer has shifted his position. A Labour Amendment now supports an immediate humanitarian ceasefire, but tonight, the government too has prepared its own amendment, calling for an urgent humanitarian pause. Nicks here. Nick, what is likely to happen tomorrow . Kirsty, late this afternoon, you could see the mood change, and it changed for the worse on the labour side. Around lunchtime, there was a very happy mood, because we saw that Labour Amendment, which as you said, talked of an immediate humanitarian ceasefire. The view was that every single labour mp will be able to vote for that. At around az30pm or 5pm, the mood changed for the worst as senior labourfigures 5pm, the mood changed for the worst as Senior Labour Figures realise that if the speaker so Lindsay Hoyle follows president , it is highly likely that he would not call the Labour Amendment, and the reason for thatis Labour Amendment, and the reason for that is that this is not like the vote in november on the kings speech, when there was a vote on the Labour Amendment and a vote on the snp amendment, and finally a vote on the government motion. This tomorrow is an Opposition Day debate, and crucially, it is an snp Opposition Day, so precedent would suggest that the speaker would call the snp motion. That will fail, and at that point, he would cross the floor of the house and call for the government amendment. That would pass, and there would be no vote on the Labour Amendment. I spoke to one Shadow Cabinet minister, and they told me, under that scenario, we would be in deep trouble. I have to say, the language was much stronger than that, but i will not quote exactly what they said. The reason is, for them, there are two macro nightmare scenarios. The first is, many labour mps, even loyalists, would feel at that point they would have to vote for the snp motion because they have got to vote for an immediate ceasefire, and if the only one is an snp one, they would feel they have to do that. Nightmare scenario number two is that labour mps would follow the advice of their whips, which is to go home and abstain, not vote for the snp won, and then they would be hounded stop one member of the Shadow Cabinet told me they would be hounded on social media. How did you vote . You did not vote for an immediate ceasefire. They are being told by leadership sources, dont worry, you can tweet out the leadership position. Members of the cabinet say, that is not good enough, it will be, how did you vote . As i understand it, there are hopes at senior levels of the labour party that the speaker will be fully aware that the speaker will be fully aware that there is that this is a deeply dangerous moment for the labour party, there is hope he would break with that president and firstly call the Labour Amendment, then call the snp motion, and then he would call the government amendment. I dont want to put words into Stephen Flynns mouth, but i think the view in the snp is that that would be a serious breach of precedent. Both the snp motion and Labour Amendment call for an immediate ceasefire, but what is labours problem with the snp motion . There are two problems it has. The first is, it does not condemn the hamas attack on the 7th Of October. Important to say, the snp has made clear it always condemns that, but the second thing, as you said, the snp motion talks about how it is important to end the collective punishment of the Palestinian People. Labour regards that as accusing israel of breaking International Law. Also problems for labour mps voting for the government amendment, because that talks about humanitarian pauses. It has to be much stronger than that. So where we are is, it looks like it is gearing up are is, it looks like it is gearing up for a very tense day at westminster, as there is a growing consensus on the diplomatic front that israel is going too far in its military operations. From across the political spectrum, from across the atlantic and from above the political fray, growing calls for an end to the violence. Until now, the two main uk parties and the white house have been wary of challenging israel. But now, a change. The conduct has been over the top. We are calling for a stop in the fighting right now. We think that what we need is a pause in the fighting. And a marked shift from labour, which is now calling for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire. This contrasts with a Labour Amendment last november, which called for daily humanitarian pauses to be extended as a necessary step to an enduring cessation of fighting as soon as possible. Every hour, every day we wait is another orphan. The ayes to the right. 125. The noes to the left, 293. That failure to call for an immediate ceasefire prompted the resignation of ten Labour Frontbenchers after they backed an snp Motion Calling forjust that. The diplomatic Tectonic Plates have shifted substantially since parliament held that vote on gaza back in november. Theres still agreement amongst western countries that israel does have the right to defend itself against hamas, but theres a growing consensus that the Israeli Government is going too far on the military front. That explains a hardening of language from the uk government, and how keir starmer is now able to embrace language that he felt unable to embrace back in november. And he hopes that will help him with his dilemma ahead of the general election, to show that he can challenge the Israeli Government without being seen to return to the days ofjeremy corbyn, when labour was perceived as hostile to the state of israel. A former labour Cabinet Minister believes israel is losing allies. The netanyahu government started with some sympathy legitimately after the terrible Terrorist Pogrom on october 7th. Most people said israel had its right to defend itself. But thats become unspeakable horror, literally destroying communities. Thousands of people killed, many more injured, homes lost. And the future for gaza is in ruins. The right to defend is not the same as the right to obliterate. Lord hain sees little hope for a Two State Solution. Theres now complete clash between the netanyahu government saying no to a Two State Solution and the International Community sticking by its belief in one, which has existed for decades. I think its very, very difficult to see how that can actually be implemented, though i wish it would. A former diplomat says the uk and the us believe the Israeli Government is not helping itself. I think probably the Western Analysis is that its now becoming counterproductive. Theres not much evidence that actually hamas is going to yield hostages in the face of a Military Campaign of the kind that is potentially contemplated, and indeed, they may well feel that their position in International Public opinion is strengthened by being able to claim even more that theyre being victimised. So i think that the Western Analysis would be this actually potentially makes life more difficult. Despair at events in the middle east. Diplomacy is moving, but for the moment at least, israel is determined to chart its own course. To talk about the snps amendment, im nowjoined by the partys Westminster Leader Stephen Flynn. Good evening. Unlike the Labour Amendment, your motion says nothing about hamass attack on october seven. We know you have condemned it before, but it is not in the motion. Yes, i have been unequivocal in relation to the devastating attack, the atrocities that hamas committed on the israeli state and thejewish people. One of the first things i tweeted following the events, the terrible events on october the 7th, and indeed, all of us who have had the unfortunate privilege of seeing the unfortunate privilege of seeing the footage first hand of what happened on that day, cant fail to be struck by it. Mit . Happened on that day, cant fail to be struck by it. Be struck by it. Why not put it in the motion . Be struck by it. Why not put it in the motion . As be struck by it. Why not put it in the motion . As far be struck by it. Why not put it in the motion . As far as be struck by it. Why not put it in the motion . As far as we be struck by it. Why not put it in the motion . As far as we are. The motion . As far as we are concerned. The motion . As far as we are concerned, everyone, the motion . As far as we are concerned, everyone, politicians across the aisle, fully condemn the actions of hamas. Across the aisle, fully condemn the actions of hamas. However, it does talk about the actions of hamas. However, it does talk about the collective actions of hamas. However, it does | talk about the collective punishment of the Palestinian People. Are you accusing israel of breaking International Law, amounting to war crimes . , International Law, amounting to war crimes . Are International Law, amounting to war crimes . Yes. Are you also accusing hamas of war crimes . Yes. Are you also accusing hamas of war crimes . Crimes . Yes. Are you also accusing hamas of war crimes . Yes. Crimes . Yes. Are you also accusing hamas of war crimes . Yes. So crimes . Yes. Are you also accusing hamas of war crimes . Yes. So you | crimes . Yes. Are you also accusing i hamas of war crimes . Yes. So you are accusin hamas of war crimes . Yes. So you are accusing both hamas of war crimes . Yes so you are accusing both sides. You also hamas of war crimes . Ies so you are accusing both sides. You also call for an immediate ceasefire. Does that not give hamas victory . It rewards them for the horror, and they have vowed to strike israel again. They have vowed to strike israel aaain. ~. They have vowed to strike israel aaain. They have vowed to strike israel auain. , , they have vowed to strike israel aaain. , ,. , again. What a ceasefire does is to revent again. What a ceasefire does is to prevent the again. What a ceasefire does is to prevent the killing, again. What a ceasefire does is to prevent the killing, the again. What a ceasefire does is to prevent the killing, the onslaughtj prevent the killing, the onslaught that civilians in gaza have had to face. 30,000 people have been killed, 70,000 injured. 1. 4 Million People are in rafah at the moment, which is usually home to 170,000 people. Which is usually home to 170,000 eole. � ,. , which is usually home to 170,000 eole. �. Which is usually home to 170,000 neale, �. ,. , which is usually home to 170,000 eole. ,. ,. , people. But you are leaving hamas in lace, and people. But you are leaving hamas in place. And where people. But you are leaving hamas in place, and where does people. But you are leaving hamas in place, and where does the pressure l place, and where does the pressure come from them to release the hostages . Come from them to release the hostaues . ,. ,. , hostages . First and foremost, we must make hostages . First and foremost, we must make sure hostages . First and foremost, we must make sure civilians hostages . First and foremost, we must make sure civilians are hostages . First and foremost, we| must make sure civilians are safe, and as it stands, they are not safe. Ultimately, the appeasement of the uk government of the Israeli Government and what i believe are the war crimes they are committing, to then start people food, water, medicines and electricity, to deny them the ability to leave, to and shoot them, to do all those things. There are more than 134 hostages, in a terrible way, one of their word imagines, one imagines, being held by hamas. Yes, they need to be released. The motion says that. It must also be remembered when some of those hostages fled from hamas last year, they were gunned down by the Israeli Security services, so we need to remember israel has been indiscriminate in its actions. It needs to end. Enough is enough. We needs to end. Enough is enough. We need an immediate ceasefire. There is an accusation that the snp here is playing political games. You are trying to make sure you split labour. My labour. My position has been clear and consistent since it became apparent to all of us what israel intended to do as a result of what happened on the 7th Of October, and as soon as that became clear, as soon as it was clear there was going to be collective punishment of Palestinian Civilians for the actions of hamas, we opposed it. We call for a ceasefire. That goes back as far as november. My position has not changed in that regard. The only thing that has changed is the views of others. But thing that has changed is the views of others. � ,. , thing that has changed is the views of others. � ,. , thing that has changed is the views of others. � i. ,. ,. , ~ of others. But you perhaps take credit for moving of others. But you perhaps take credit for moving keir of others. But you perhaps take credit for moving keir starmer i of others. But you perhaps take i credit for moving keir starmer into a different position . I am pleased. I actually thought a different position . I am pleased. I actually thought today a different position . I am pleased. I actually thought today was a different position . I am pleased. I actually thought today was a a different position . I am pleased. | i actually thought today was a good day, because the Labour Leader had got to a position where he finally backed an immediate ceasefire. That is a good thing. It is something that needs to be welcome, and there is no doubt the parliamentary pressure of the likes of myself and others has obviously because that change in keir starmer� s position. It has been mentioned to me today that the issue they have with the snp motion is to do with collective punishment. Of course, at the Scottish Labour Conference over the weekend, Scottish Labour said there was collective punishment of the Palestinian People, so the labour party need to be clear about where they stand. Thank you very much, Stephen Flynn. Im joined by senior labour mp barry gardiner. When you back the snp motion if the Labour Party Amendment is not called . At Labour Party Amendment is not called . , Labour Party Amendment is not called . ,. ~ Labour Party Amendment is not called . ,. ~. , called . Of course, i will back any Motion Calling called . Of course, i will back any Motion Calling for called . Of course, i will back any Motion Calling for an called . Of course, i will back any Motion Calling for an immediate l Motion Calling for an immediate ceasefire. I did so in november and will do so again. But it is strange that we are debating which of the motions which call for an immediate ceasefire is the better when actually what they are saying is why the government is not calling for an immediate ceasefire . They see these children dying and what is going on in the gaza strip and this evening i had a Voice Message from Sarah Chaplin who has spent the entire day at the Rafah Crossing telling me what senior aid workers. She is chair of the Commons International Development Select committee. She has been there all day, she is saying that Senior Leaders in all the aid agencies are in despair. They say they have never seen anything like it in 25 years. They say that they are fearful they will have to pull out because they can no longer guarantee the safety of their workforce. This is a disaster going on in the real question is why the hell is the government not demanding an immediate ceasefire . To be hell is the government not demanding an immediate ceasefire . An immediate ceasefire . To be clear, do ou an immediate ceasefire . To be clear, do you back an immediate ceasefire . To be clear, do you back every an immediate ceasefire . To be clear, do you back every line an immediate ceasefire . To be clear, do you back every line in an immediate ceasefire . To be clear, do you back every line in the an immediate ceasefire . To be clear, do you back every line in the snp do you back every line in the snp motion, you actually believe that as well as embarked on collective punishment of the palestinians . This is ve punishment of the palestinians . T� i 3 is very important. Of course and i understand the importance of your question. Not an International Lawyer, i do not know whether this qualifies. What i do know is it is it is morally wrong. It is qualifies. What i do know is it is it is morally wrong. It is morally wrong. It is article 33 in the geneva it is morally wrong. It is article 33 in the geneva convention. L 33 in the geneva convention. Absolutely but i do not know what constitutes the offence. So i will notjudge constitutes the offence. So i will not judge a constitutes the offence. So i will notjudge a night but what i will tell you is it is wrong. It is morally wrong what is going on there. And no one can look at the situation and none of your viewers can look at the situation night after night and think that we should not be demanding an end to this violence. But not be demanding an end to this violence. � �. Not be demanding an end to this violence. � � ,. , violence. But lets be quite clear, did ou, violence. But lets be quite clear, did you. The violence. But lets be quite clear, did you, the labour violence. But lets be quite clear, did you, the labour mp, violence. But lets be quite clear, did you, the labour mp, believe l violence. But lets be quite clear,. Did you, the labour mp, believe that israel has the right to defend itself . {iii israel has the right to defend itself . , israel has the right to defend itself . , ,. ,. , itself . Of course, everyone has the riaht itself . Of course, everyone has the ri. Ht to itself . Of course, everyone has the right to defend itself . Of course, everyone has the right to defend themselves. Itself . Of course, everyone has the right to defend themselves. Do itself . Of course, everyone has the right to defend themselves. Do you believe that right to defend themselves. Do you believe that hamas right to defend themselves. Do you believe that hamas should right to defend themselves. Do you believe that hamas should be right to defend themselves. Do you believe that hamas should be left | right to defend themselves. Do you | believe that hamas should be left in place as an immediate ceasefire would mean . Would mean . You say that, as ceasefire would mean . You say that, as ceasefire is would mean . You say that, as ceasefire is an would mean . You say that, as ceasefire is an opportunity would mean . You say that, as ceasefire is an opportunity to l ceasefire is an opportunity to negotiate. An opportunity to make sure the hostages come home. An opportunity to stop the rockets going over into israel because it is the only way in which you get to a peaceful solution. Because you do not do it by bombarding people, you do it by talking. It is by discussion and negotiation. What if there is an immediate discussion and negotiation. What if there is an immediate ceasefire discussion and negotiation. What if| there is an immediate ceasefire and hostages are not released or they are then found dead, what happens then . Pl. Are then found dead, what happens then . �. Are then found dead, what happens then . ~. , are then found dead, what happens then . A ceasefire enables you to negotiate then . A ceasefire enables you to negotiate l then . A ceasefire enables you to negotiate. I cannot then . A ceasefire enables you to negotiate. I cannot predict then . A ceasefire enables you to negotiate. I cannot predict and i negotiate. I cannot predict and neither can anyone what will happen. What i do know is that children are dying, innocent civilians are dying and it has to stop. Dying, innocent civilians are dying and it has to stop. Thank you both very much as we mentioned earlier, there has been a distinct shift in the uss unswerving support for israel withjo bidens already cautionary words to Prime Minister netanayhu, now translated into a proposal for a Un Security Council resolution designed to stop an assault on rafah, but a counter to algeriaa call for an immediate and permanent ceasefire heresjoe pike. European politicians and parliaments on their own are unlikely to shift israels position. The country with the most sway undoubtedly remains the united state, israels closest ally for 75 years. 0ver that Period Washington has provided around 130 Billion Dollars of military aid. The two nations share intelligence, take part injoint military exercises, and rarely criticise each other. But in recent weeks that seems to have changed. Iamof i am of the view as you know that the conduct of the response in the gaza strip has been over the top. Those against . Today the us vetoed a un vote on an immediate ceasefire. It argues that would complicate ongoing negotiations for a new hostage deal. But the language in their 0wn Draft Resolution marks a change. The us wants the Security Council to say it underscores its support for a temporary ceasefire in gaza as soon as practicable, based on the formula of all hostages being released. Now biden has told netanyahu directly in recent days there needs to be a temporary ceasefire. The use of the word ceasefire is significant. Because its something the country has previously blocked at the un. Yet the use of temporary is also notable. And as soon as is practicable doesnt necessarily mean immediately. Israels possible offensive in rafah is something the us opposes. Although again look at the language such a major Ground Offensive should not proceed under current circumstances. Note the words under current circumstances. Joe biden is under pressure both internationally and domestically because of the worsening humanitarian situation. Notjust the death toll of 29,000, according to the hamas run health ministry. But today unicef and the World Food Programme said that in northern gaza, one in six children under two years of age are acutely malnourished. And that 5 before we get to rafah. The city on the egyption border. The city on the egyptian border. It was home to a quarter of a Million People before the war. Now more than a million displaced gazans are sheltering there. Many are living in tents or makeshift shelters in squalid conditions. We now, though, do have a timescale for israels offensive. Yesterday benny gantz, of mr netanyahu 5 war cabinet, warned that if israeli Hostages Aren T released by the start of ramadan the 10th Of March that operation will be launched. Everything now could build towards that moment. Will netanyahu go ahead and ignore the views of much of the International Community. Or will he blink . Joining me now is senior diplomat hasam zumlot, the head of the Palestinian Mission to the uk. Thank you forjoining us. When we spoke before you have lost members of your family in gaza city but you have been bereaved again in the South Of Rafah . Have been bereaved again in the South Of Rafah . That image of the small airl South Of Rafah . That image of the small girl literally South Of Rafah . That image of the small girl literally dangling South Of Rafah . That image of the small girl literally dangling with i small girl literally dangling with her amputated body in rafah that went viral on social media and i saw it and i was absolutely shattered and at the end of the day i go back home and find my wife very sad and i asked what has happened and she said that was my cousin. It is the daughter of my aunt susan. My wife was named after her. And she and her husband were killed together with their two sons and the children of their two sons and the children of their sons and the seven Year Old Girl who was in that image and again susan named after her grandmother and a child of 15 months old was slaughtered in that israeli air strike. Still the slaughtering of children is happening. find strike. Still the slaughtering of children is happening. Children is happening. And my condolences children is happening. And my condolences to children is happening. And my condolences to you. 1. 5 children is happening. And my| condolences to you. 1. 5 Million People in rafah, what you think may happen if there is an offensive . Literally in apocalyptic situation. 1. 5 Million People forced out of their homes from the north and already they have been displaced. The family of my wife by the way have been displaced ten times until they got to rafah, walking from the very north of the gaza strip to the south. As they are being displaced they have lost considerable numbers of their families. So they have lost considerable numbers of theirfamilies. So my they have lost considerable numbers of their families. So my wifes family 26, my family at 100 plus until they reached rafah starved, disease is spreading and it is still bombed on their way to go and now they are asked by the Israeli Military to evacuate again. But where do they go, mars . That military to evacuate again. But where do they go, mars . That is the last oint. Where do they go, mars . That is the last point. Hamas where do they go, mars . That is the last point. Hamas could where do they go, mars . That is the last point. Hamas could stop where do they go, mars . That is the last point. Hamas could stop this where do they go, mars . That is the last point. Hamas could stop this if i last point. Hamas could stop this if they release the hostages. Israel is not wa. In they release the hostages. Israel is not waging war they release the hostages. Israel is not waging war against they release the hostages. Israel is not waging war against hamas they release the hostages. Israel is not waging war against hamas or. Not waging war against hamas or eradicating hamas. It is eradicating our people. This will be a war and an aggression against our people. And look at what this genocide has led to. It was joe and look at what this genocide has led to. It wasjoe biden who did not want to repeat the mistake of september the 11th. Want to repeat the mistake of septemberthe11th. But want to repeat the mistake of september the 11th. But this is collective punishment in every sense. ~. ,. , collective punishment in every sense. ,. ,. ,. ,. , sense. What to make of the move now b the us, sense. What to make of the move now by the us, it sense. What to make of the move now by the us, it could sense. What to make of the move now by the us, it could be sense. What to make of the move now by the us, it could be to sense. What to make of the move now by the us, it could be to block sense. What to make of the move now by the us, it could be to block the by the us, it could be to block the algerian move but what do you make of it . ,. ,. Algerian move but what do you make of it . ,. , of it . Disgraceful, and it will be associated of it . Disgraceful, and it will be associated with of it . Disgraceful, and it will be associated with his of it . Disgraceful, and it will be associated with his name of it . Disgraceful, and it will be associated with his name in of it . Disgraceful, and it will be associated with his name in history. He is enabling genocide, president biden. And that is why we are waiting for the vote tomorrow in westminster which is crucial and vital. Very important member of uk given the uk, the people of the uk have stood with justice. If given the uk, the people of the uk have stood with justice. Have stood with ustice. If there is a have stood with ustice. If there is e ceasefire. Have stood with justice. If there is a ceasefire, then have stood with justice. If there is a ceasefire, then the have stood with justice. If there is a ceasefire, then the violence a ceasefire, then the violence should hand and this is what youre saying, it is a critical vote tomorrow as far as are concerned because it will be a call for a ceasefire and wilful because the government has the majority but you are saying it matters. But if there is a ceasefire should hamas immediately release the hostages . There has to be Hostage Exchange. Israel has taken 70,000 palestinians hostage in the past four months, 7000 without trial or charge and we have hostages as well. So qatar and egypt with the us have offered as well a perfect deal for Hostage Exchange and it is Benjamin Netanyahu who is only interested in the continuation of the war. He knows that he is done. That may or may not be the case but let me put to you what Stephen Flynn said, he said he believed there is the collective punishment of palestinians but also believes as much as israel is guilty that hamas is also guilty. Much as israel is guilty that hamas is also guilty is also guilty. You really want to compare . Is also guilty. You really want to compare . Im is also guilty. You really want to compare . Im not is also guilty. You really want to compare . Im not asking is also guilty. You really want to compare . Im not asking you. Is also guilty. You really want to compare . Im not asking you to | compare . Im not asking you to compare compare . Im not asking you to compare im compare . Im not asking you to compare. Im here compare . Im not asking you to compare. Im here representing compare . Im not asking you to compare. Im here representing the Palestinian People compare. Im here representing the Palestinian People and compare. Im here representing the Palestinian People and the compare. Im here representing the Palestinian People and the state. Compare. Im here representing the Palestinian People and the state of| Palestinian People and the state of palestine but you should recognise. Im here representing a government, i am an ambassador not a senior diplomat. This is the time to stop the denial of the Palestinian People. Given that britain in history. But you are comparing a militant group with a state that has a seat in the un that is as well and really, the behaviour should be comparable . Ask the International Lawyers about occupation. 0ccupiers do not have rights, they have responsibilities and those are to protect the people under occupation and provide for them and not deprive them of water. Not to prevent humanitarian aid from reaching children. He asked me about my wifes family and last night i lost three of my own family. My cousin, 49, his wife. Not because of an israeli bombardment. And their daughter, the three of them died and you know why . Because they were ill and had nowhere to be treated. Cancer patients are dying, those who need dialysis are dying and thousands of people because of the collective punishment of the Palestinian People. The Foreign Secretary david Palestinian People. The Foreign Secretary David Cameron Palestinian People. The Foreign Secretary David Cameron said i secretary David Cameron said palestinians need something over the horizon and new Palestinian Government making progress to a Two State Solution. Do you still believe in a Two State Solution . We do but there is only in a Two State Solution . We do but there is only lip in a Two State Solution . We do but there is only lip service in a Two State Solution . We do but there is only lip service to in a Two State Solution . We do but there is only lip service to stop there is only lip service to stop there is only lip service to stop the carnage and horror. What we need to do is an immediate ceasefire and a permanent one and then immediately removed to accountability because we need to make sure that the state of palestine is recognised fully and that we move swiftly to ending the occupation by israel which is the root cause of this. Occupation by israel which is the root cause of this. Thank you very much. Nowjoining me in the studio we have the un 5 former Assistant Secretary General for human rights, andrew gilmour. And the spokesperson for the embassy of israel, 0rly goldschmidt. Good evening. 0rly goldschmidt, you say if hamas releases hostages and surrenders than this can stop now. Is that not unrealistic . 0f surrenders than this can stop now. Is that not unrealistic . Of course it is unrealistic because hamas would never do that. But if they did want to surrender and bring our hostages back of course we would not need this war to happen. 0ur hostages back of course we would not need this war to happen. Our goal has been clearfrom need this war to happen. Our goal has been clear from the beginning has been clearfrom the beginning of the war that we did not want, i want to say, one of them is to bring back all our hostages. We have 240 plus hostages taken from the hamas murderers and the second goal is to make sure they no longer have the ability to harm us. So as long as those goals have not been achieved, we cannot agree to any ceasefire unfortunately. We cannot agree to any ceasefire unfortunately. There are 28,000 palestinians unfortunately. There are 28,000 Palestinians Dead unfortunately. There are 28,000 Palestinians Dead including unfortunately. There are 28,000 Palestinians Dead including at. Unfortunately. There are 28,000 i Palestinians Dead including at least 10,000 children. According to hamas. We know from aid agencies and i want to bring in Andrew Gilmore, theres Little Medicine and Little Cancer treatment and very little water. Children are now without parents, of them. This is to some people collective punishment. Is it . Of course not, because we are not against the Palestinian People. It is actually the opposite. 0ur war is only against hamas. Igather is actually the opposite. Our war is only against hamas. Is actually the opposite. Our war is only against hamas. Why bomb schools and hospitals. Only against hamas. Why bomb schools and hospitals, then . Only against hamas. Why bomb schools and hospitals, then . I only against hamas. Why bomb schools and hospitals, then . I will only against hamas. Why bomb schools and hospitals, then . I will tell and hospitals, then . I will tell ou, and hospitals, then . I will tell you. Hamas and hospitals, then . I will tell you. Hamas is and hospitals, then . I will tell you, hamas is embedded and hospitals, then . I will tell. You, hamas is embedded within schools and hospitals. I want to just finish my point, because it is important. You are talking about numbers. They may or may not be true, but lets say they are true. Well, aid agencies are talking about the numbers, it is notjust the Palestinian Health authority run by hamas that is saying that. Lets Palestinian Health authority run by hamas that is saying that. Lets go accordin hamas that is saying that. Lets go according to those hamas that is saying that. Lets go according to those numbers. Hamas that is saying that. Lets go according to those numbers. You | hamas that is saying that. Lets go according to those numbers. You have according to those numbers. You have a ratio of one combatant, two noncombatants killed in that war. It is difficult. Noncombatants killed in that war. It is difficult. Is difficult. Many more noncombatants. Is difficult. Many more noncombatants. No, is difficult. Many more noncombatants. No, it. Is difficult. Many more | noncombatants. No, it is is difficult. Many more noncombatants. No, it is one to is difficult. Many more noncombatants. No, it is one to two. I need to bring noncombatants. No, it is one to two. I need to bring in noncombatants. No, it is one to two. I need to bring in andrew noncombatants. No, it is one to two. I need to bring in Andrew Gilmore, i i need to bring in Andrew Gilmore, who is very patient sitting here. This is a catastrophic failure of the un to present their web prevent this catastrophe . I the un to present their web prevent this catastrophe . The un to present their web prevent this catastrophe . I have never heard an bod this catastrophe . I have never heard anybody blaming this catastrophe . I have never heard anybody blaming the this catastrophe . I have never heard anybody blaming the un this catastrophe . I have never heard anybody blaming the un for this catastrophe . I have never heard anybody blaming the un for this anybody blaming the un for this catastrophe, kirsty. The key thing about catastrophe, kirsty. The key thing about International Law is one appalling thing does Notjustify Anothen appalling thing does notjustify another. Therefore, 57 years of an extremely another. Therefore, 57 years of an extremely harsh, illegal occupation by isreel extremely harsh, illegal occupation by israel of the west bank and gaza did not by israel of the west bank and gaza did notjustify the Barbarous Attacks did notjustify the Barbarous Attacks by hamas on seven october. Similarly, attacks by hamas on seven october. Similarly, what they did, which is beyond similarly, what they did, which is beyond unspeakable, we know what they did, beyond unspeakable, we know what they did, does notjustify beyond unspeakable, we know what they did, does not justify the killing they did, does not justify the killing of, as you say, 25,000 pecule. Killing of, as you say, 25,000 pecule. Of killing of, as you say, 25,000 people, of which, the way, i think the number people, of which, the way, i think the number is a lot higher than 10,000 the number is a lot higher than 10,000 children, probably closer to 20,000 10,000 children, probably closer to 20,000 women and children. Remember, that is 20,000 women and children. Remember, that is probably the highest kill rate of that is probably the highest kill rate of any military killing anybody since rate of any military killing anybody since the rate of any military killing anybody since the Rwandan Genocide of 1994. 27,000 since the Rwandan Genocide of 1994. 27,000 people, civilians, killed in fourand 27,000 people, civilians, killed in fourand a 27,000 people, civilians, killed in four and a half months is an astonishing thing. You ask is it collective astonishing thing. You ask is it collective punishment. How could it not be . Collective punishment. How could it not be . 22 collective punishment. How could it not be . 2. 2 Million People are being shunted not be . 2. 2 Million People are being shunted around in the rain, being bombed shunted around in the rain, being bombed repeatedly wherever they go. The so called safe haven is. So the socalled safe haven is. So tell me the so called safe haven is. Tell me where the so called safe haven is. Sr tell me where we are now. We are now having this motion tomorrow and the amendment. From your point of view, 0rly goldschmidt, do you welcome the call for an immediate ceasefire . Like i told ou, for an immediate ceasefire . Like i told you. A for an immediate ceasefire . Like i told you, a ceasefire for an immediate ceasefire . Like i told you, a ceasefire now for an immediate ceasefire . Like i told you, a ceasefire now would i for an immediate ceasefire . L i told you, a ceasefire now would mean we were going back to the 6th of october. I want to remind your view is that on the 6th of october, on one side, you had people who were trying to live peacefully and create some sort of peaceful life, and on the other side, you had people whose only goal was to annihilate the jewish people. So of course we cant have a ceasefire now as long as hamas is still in power, as long as hamas is still in power, as long as hamas threatens to repeat the 7th Of October again and again and again. I mean, as Stephen Flynn said, the apparent, absolutely abhorrent activities of hamas on the 7th Of October, he was saying, had been repeated and talked about many times, but we are now in a situation where there could very well be an offensive in rafah, and it would be ahead of ramadan. Do you think that ahead of ramadan. Do you think that a Military Offensive in rafah is the right way for israel to proceed . I think that as long as hamas is still in power and is still using their own civilians as human shields, its a big problem that needs to be addressed, and if people like the representative of the Palestinian Authority care about the Palestinian Authority care about the Palestinian People, then they need to call out hamas. Hamas are the ones causing those problems, and i agree, its astonishing numbers of people who have died. Unfortunately, its because of hamas. And i can tell you that the israeli army is doing everything it can in order to minimise casualties. But in the past, they may have supposedly been doing everything to minimise casualties, but the casualties have been ferocious. Andrew gilmore, tell me what you think the impact would be of an Israeli Offensive, albeit they call it targeted, and Israeli Offensive in the packed position that is in. Misery would be infernal. It would meani misery would be infernal. It would mean. And misery would be infernal. It would mean, and by the way, the Israeli Security mean, and by the way, the Israeli Security services know what i am about Security Services know what i am about to Security Services know what i am about to say very well, and i know that about to say very well, and i know that, i about to say very well, and i know that, i have about to say very well, and i know that, i havejust about to say very well, and i know that, i have just been at the munich security that, i have just been at the Munich Security Conference with all the intelligence and diplomacy people there intelligence and diplomacy people there. They know it is far more likely there. They know it is far more likely the there. They know it is far more likely the hostages are going to get killed it likely the hostages are going to get killed if the attack on rafah happens. And that is much more likely happens. And that is much more likel. ,. , , likely. Tell me about that because ofthe likely. Tell me about that because of the likelihood, likely. Tell me about that because of the likelihood, andrew likely. Tell me about that because of the likelihood, Andrew Gilmore j of the likelihood, Andrew Gilmore says, is that the hostages will be killed if this goes ahead. It has been said very clearly by the government that if they do an incursion into rafah, they will hear if there would have a clear plan to evacuate the civilians meco they will have a clear plan to evacuate the civilians, like they called the civilians to evacuate from the northern part of gazza and from khan younis. 0ur Northern Part of gazza and from khan younis. Our goal is to make sure that hamas does not have opportunities. We are not against the Palestinian People. As long as they use our hostages and their own citizens as human shields, as long as they hide within un facilities, by the way, within un schools, unwired schools, it will be a very difficult situation for us. Thank you very much indeed. Unrwa schools. A mercenary Company Operating at arms length but directed by the kremlin was one of russias most influential Foreign Policy tools since 2014. The wagner group and its notorious leader Yevgeniy Prigohzin had operations all over the world, but especially in africa. As russia 5 invasion of ukraine stalled, they were brought in to shore up the regular military, and it was here that things between prigozhin and the man for whom he had once regularly been a chef started to go wrong. Injune last year, he launched a short lived and ill fated coup before apparently being forgiven and then dying in a mysterious plane crash. After that, the question was, what would happen to wagner . Heres our international correspondentjoe inwood. This was Yevgeny Prigozhin on his final tour of africa. We are here making russia even greater, he says, and making africa free. As well as showing off military hardware, hes trying to win hearts and minds. But a few weeks later, he would be killed. At the time, few doubted why the Mutinous Mercenary Boss had died in a mysterious plane crash. There was less certainty about what would happen to his wagner empire. But now we know. So there was a meeting in the kremlin fairly shortly after prigohzins mutiny, in which it was decided that wagners Africa Operations would fall directly under the control of Russian Military intelligence, the gru. Wagner has been broken into two components the Volunteer Corps Fighting in ukraine, and the expeditionary corps under the control of this man, general andrey averyanov. He was the commander of unit 29155, said to be behind the poisoning of sergei and Yulia Skripal on the streets of salisbury. This is the man now running Russian Operations in africa. Now this is the russian state coming out and saying, we are entering into these defence and cooperation agreements, we are deploying forces, and so that means that a lot of the constraints on the scale at which they were operating are removed. This is the russian state Coming Out Of The Shadows in its africa policy. That became clear on a trip general averyanov made with the Deputy Defence minister in august and september. Starting in libya with a meeting with a warlord called general haftar. Then they moved to burkina faso to meet the 35 year old coup leader, ibrahim traore. Next, the Central African republic. Finally, mali, where they met the leaders of the junta. On a later trip, they also met one of the men who seized power in niger. So these are internal documents, russian state documents, very interesting. These classified documents form the backbone of todays report and give an insight into russias ambitious africa strategy. These detail what the russian state can offer governments, for example, in west africa, taking up the role that was previously done by wagner and offering them what they call a Regime Survival Package. The Regime Survival Package is how the russians are internally describing a group of capabilities that ranges from personal protection for partner leaders, Information Operations to boost their popularity domestically, a range of economic protections against western sanctions for how they might be behaving, and this provision of quite Capable Military forces to allow them to go after their internal opponents. Footage of wagner in action is rare. But what we can see is how they wanted to be portrayed. This was the trailer for a russian funded action film called the tourist. It depicts a group of mercenaries bearing a striking resemblance to wagner, fighting what it calls terrorists in the Central African republic, Training Localforces and helping the population