Uk and underneath that area with light winds, temperatures in parts of the highlands could get close to freezing and they could be A Touch Of Frost on wednesday morning but still some warmth across the east coast, 15 or 16 degrees to start the day. Probably the driest and brightest day of the week for many although later on we will see cloud and rain and a strengthening wind in Northern Ireland and western scotland, 14 21. A lot of uncertainty about the this programme continues on bbc one. Exclusive an nhs Whistle Blower tells newsnight she was persecuted by Hospital Bosses for raising a matter of a life and death at the World Famous Christie Hospital In Manchester. The Whistle Blower is here live. Rebecca whites been accused of lying today by the ceo of the christie, her former boss. And well talk to sir Robert Francis who chaired a five year inquiry into up to 1,200 preventable deaths of elderly people at Stafford Hospital. Also tonight are spies infiltrating the mother of all parliaments to influence British Elections . The government says china represents a systemic challenge to the uk a challenge or a threat . Well discuss with a former Foreign Secretary and an expert on china. And American Bully Xls look like this. The Home Secretary is looking to ban them after one attacked an 11 Year Old Girl and two men in birmingham at the weekend. So much would that be the right decision . Well ask a legal expert and the trainer of bully xl dog. Good evening. Why do institutions, companies or corporations persecute Whistle Blowers within their ranks . For the last year newsnight has been investigating allegations of mismanagement and the targeting and oppression of Whistle Blowers within the nhs. Paramedics have told us patients were dying because of Ambulance Delays outside hospital; we brought you claims that nhs managers in birmingham acted Like The Mafia and pursued clinicians who raised Patient Safety concerns. And tonight what appears to be another disturbing example we reveal how one senior nurse says her life was ruined by the world renowned Cancer Hospital the christie, In Manchester, when she attempted to blow the whistle about a colleague she alleges allowed patients to come to harm. Heres David Grossman with his latest exclusive i was met with a huge amount of resistance when speaking up. Id worked in the trust for seven years at that point. I didnt realise that approaching my manager and Raising Concerns would cause such distress and such detriment to my life. Id never envisaged it would take this long to get answers. Rebecca whites life changed when, after long deliberation, she decided to speak to managers at the Christie Hospital In Manchester about a Nurse Colleague who she and others thought was endangering patients. I was repeatedly asked by senior managers what i wanted out of Raising Concerns what was it that i wanted to gain out of this raising of concerns . As if it was some kind of personal gain for me. How many patients are we talking about here and what sort of harms do you think they came to . I think people were unwell for longer than they should have been. I think people were left at home when they should have been in hospital. I think patients just didnt get the care that they required. Even after she uncovered evidence that medical records had been changed after a patient death, it didnt, rebecca says, puncture the wall of indifference and hostility with which she felt she was met. The nurse in question eventually resigned but is still working in the nhs. Rebecca has since escalated her concerns to the nurses professional body, the nursing and midwifery council, who are now investigating. Rebecca, meanwhile, is taking the christie to an Industrial Tribunal for wrongful dismissal. When i submitted my claim, i received my paperwork from the Employment Tribunal Service to say, yes, your claim has been accepted, and at the top, it says white versus the christie. Its a bit of a surreal moment to see your name against this powerful trust. And you think, how did you end up there . How did something that was never about me end up. . Well, itjust looks as if its a battle between me and the christie. This was always aboutjust improving and advocating and making sure that patients were safe. Yet somehow its ended up as me versus them. A Public Inquiry into appalling failings within the mid staffordshire nhs trust, believed to have contributed to the deaths of at least 400| patients, has called for a zero tolerance approach to poor standards of care. Needless to say, this was not meant to be the experience of whistle blowing in the nhs. A decade ago, the Francis Inquiry into appalling Patient Neglect and abuse at mid staffs was supposed to empower and encourage critical feedback. Helene donnelly tried dozens of times to raise the alarm. I she used official forms to log incidents of concern, but no one listened, she felt resented and intimidated. There was huge pressure for the hospital to save money and meet targets. Helene donnelly was a nurse at mid staffs who tried to raise the alarm on over 100 occasions. She was a key witness in the Public Inquiry that followed. We showed her rebeccas interview with us. It was still a very, very tough process that was marred with intimidation, silencing and just brushing my concerns under the carpet. Its very worrying to think that this is still going on, given where weve got to from lots of different inquiries, from the Mid Staffs Inquiry and reviews, that focus specifically on listening to your staff, listening to those who are speaking up, encouraging staff to speak up and taking appropriate action. And, clearly, that wasnt happening. The most important thing is their reputation. No matter what cost, they will try and retain that. You were nodding there when she said it was about protecting the reputation. Did that ring true to you . Yeah, absolutely. Time and time again, in some of these more high profile cases, we see that its senior managers, middle managers, but certainly board level trying to protect potential reputational damage. And they dont want it on their watch, so its crucial that they shut it down, make it go away. And the person that persists in trying to raise concerns for the sake of Patient Safety and improvement, instead of being welcomed and explored and so on, theyre just seen as a problem. A nurse has been convicted of murdering babies. Over a decade on from the francis review and another terrible nhs scandal this time at the countess of Chester Hospital. Colleagues repeatedly raised the alarm over lucy letby, but time and time again, nothing happened. But there are parallels, say campaigners, between what happened at the countess of Chester Hospital and other lesser nhs scandals that while doctors and nurses can be struck off after something goes wrong, nhs managers, it seems, can continue with their careers largely unaffected. That, they say, must now change. Theres no accountability when it comes to Decision Making at the top. For those that get it drastically wrong, and thats uncovered, usually they move on to bigger and better things. But doctors and nurses, we sit under a regulatory body, we have someone to answer to, whereas managers have nobody to answer to. And they protect each other. Back in 2018, an official review looking at the quality of nhs managers was carried out by the barrister tom kark. It recommended setting up a body which has the power to Bar Directors where serious misconduct is proved to have occurred. But so far, ministers have not accepted this idea. We absolutely have to have some more robust way of monitoring, tracking and regulating managers across the nhs and social care. It staggers me that weve still not got to that now, post mid staffs and Everything Else. And, indeed, tom karks review actually recommends that and the Secretary Of State declined it. So i absolutely think we need a regulatory body that will monitor and review and assess that and that, if necessary, those people who fail in their duty will be disbarred from that and then, you know, not able to just walk down the road and get another job in another trust, in another organisation and potentiallyjust continue in the same vein. I call stephen barclay, the Secretary Of State for health. The Department Of Health and social care told us that they couldnt comment on individual cases. But in the light of the lucy letby case, the health secretary, steve barclay, told the commons that they are going to revisit the idea of a National Register of nhs managers who could be struck off. The Christie Hospital told us that, we are grateful that Rebecca White raised concerns on three occasions. On each occasion, they went on, the concerns were taken very seriously, fully investigated, acted upon, and she was informed of actions taken. On the allegation of altered patient records, they told us, the updating of the records was found, on investigation, not to have made a material difference to the way in which the patient� s condition was described and was part of the normal signing off of records following dictation and typing, where amendments can be made in a transparent and auditable way. The trust also said that they are cooperating fully with the investigation by the nursing and midwifery council. The nhs is clearly still struggling with whistle blowing. Whatever those at the top say, many closer to patients believe if they speak up, they risk being shut down. David grossman, and that film produced by sean clare. Rebecca white is here, as is sir Robert Francis, who chaired the inquiry into the mid staffs Nhs Foundation trust, where hundreds of patients died who shouldnt have. Welcome to both of you. I run the first of all, rebecca, if you could talk us through the kind of things you are weighing up as an experienced nurse before you blow the whistle . I experienced nurse before you blow the whistle . The whistle . I suppose it starts with those the whistle . I suppose it starts with those feelings the whistle . I suppose it starts with those feelings of the whistle . I suppose it starts with those feelings of concern, j with those feelings of concern, worry for your patience and the patience you are caring for. And theyre making sure those concerns, those observations are justified. That usually results in a few sleepless nights weighing up what will happen if you raise your concerns. Will it offset the person you are Raising Concerns about . Will it upset the team . Will it isolate you from the team . Then it is about looking at the detriment. What is the bigger detriment, speaking up or staying quiet . And then eventually making that decision if, the patient is at the centre of it, if staying quiet would be detrimental to patients, which in my case it was, then you have no choice but to go forward and speak up. You then you have no choice but to go forward and speak up. Then you have no choice but to go forward and speak up. You are clear in our forward and speak up. You are clear in your head. Forward and speak up. You are clear in your head. It forward and speak up. You are clear in your head, it was forward and speak up. You are clear in your head, it was about forward and speak up. You are clear in your head, it was about life forward and speak up. You are clear in your head, it was about life and l in your head, it was about life and death . ,. , ,. , in your head, it was about life and death . What in your head, it was about life and| death . What kind in your head, it was about life and i death . What kind of death . Yes, absolutely. What kind of reaction were death . Yes, absolutely. What kind of reaction were you death . Yes, absolutely. What kind of reaction were you expecting death . Yes, absolutely. What kind of reaction were you expecting from reaction were you expecting from your bosses . Reaction were you expecting from your bosses . Expected to go to my manauers your bosses . Expected to go to my managers with your bosses . Expected to go to my managers with these your bosses . Expected to go to my managers with these concerns, managers with these concerns, something i have never had to do before in my career, which is 16 years as a nurse. Expected them to be engaged, to have an open discussion. I expected to have a safe place to talk and i expected for the policies and protocols they write about what happens with staff when you raise concerns, to be followed. Sadly, none of that happened in my case for many, many months. ,. ,. , happened in my case for many, many months. ,. , , months. The nurse you raised issues about resigned. Months. The nurse you raised issues about resigned, still months. The nurse you raised issues about resigned, still working months. The nurse you raised issues about resigned, still working on months. The nurse you raised issues about resigned, still working on the| about resigned, still working on the nhs. He also resigned, why . This ourne nhs. He also resigned, why . This journey started nhs. He also resigned, why . 1m . journey started over two years ago in may 2021. I tried in vain for many, many months and right up until the end of 2022 to have these open and honest discussions, about not just the concerns i raised but what happened after that and what did not happen. I tried to have those conversations with the managers of the christie and i was always met with a brick wall. I wasnt allowed feedback about my concerns because it was confidential. At 1. 1 took the Robert Francis report to my managers with recommendations about feedback, but was still left with nothing. Then i decided i could no longer work in a trust with a culture such as that and i was physically and mentally exhausted from the process and i am still recovering now. Can ou tell and i am still recovering now. Can you tell us and i am still recovering now. Can you tell us in and i am still recovering now. Can you tell us in a and i am still recovering now. Can you tell us in a little bit more detail the impact you say this has had on you . It takes of your life professionally and personally. I became so fearful about having to raise the concerns again whenever they had not been actioned that i became very anxious. I stopped being able to function normally in my life. Including looking after my two young children. Despite the unwavering support of my family and friends. I became very isolated. I stopped socialising as much. There was an instance where the Family Member of mine died and i did not feel like i could go to the funeral because i was just unable to socialise or make small talk. Ijust became a very different person. This a became a very different person. As a result of the became a very different person. As a result of the story, became a very different person. As a result of the story, the christie knew you were appearing on newsnight and the ceo sent a bulletin around to thousands of your former colleagues, essentially accusing you of lying. I could, we strongly rebut the claims and have made clear how we are fully supportive of staff Raising Concerns and ensure issues are investigated, findings reported and were necessary come actioned. We are disappointed the christie is the subject of untrue allegations. Are you a liar . I subject of untrue allegations. Are ou a liar . , subject of untrue allegations. Are you a liar . You a liar . I ust wonder what an one you a liar . I just wonder what anyone would you a liar . I just wonder what anyone would think you a liar . I just wonder what anyone would think i you a liar . I just wonder what anyone would think i would i you a liar . I just wonder what i anyone would think i would gain you a liar . I just wonder what anyone would think i would gain from this process. This has been a dramatic two years. I could have walked away, i could have left it and moved on but i have not because i have to pursue this for the safety of patients in the future and for positive change. I would like to say i am really disappointed in the bulletin that were sent around to over 3000 staff today. I do not think it gives staff the confidence in the trust that needs building for them to come forward and make those concerns themselves. I was alerted by a large number of my ex colleagues this morning who were very troubled by this bulletin. I have nothing to gain, there is no personal gain from this process, i do not win, the patients or the staff do not win. No, there is no Point In Lying. 5ir staff do not win. No, there is no Point In Lying staff do not win. No, there is no Point In Lying. Sir Robert Francis, our Point In Lying. Sir Robert Francis, your response Point In Lying. Sir Robert Francis, your response to Point In Lying. Sir Robert Francis, your response to what Point In Lying. Sir Robert Francis, your response to what rebecca i Point In Lying. Sir Robert Francis, l your response to what rebecca has been telling our audience . It is your response to what rebecca has been telling our audience . Been telling our audience . It is a story which been telling our audience . It is a story which is been telling our audience . It is a story which is only been telling our audience . It is a story which is only too been telling our audience . It is a story which is only too familiar, l story which is only too familiar, im afraid story which is only too familiar, im afraid. My hope, out of the Mid Staffs Inquiry, and the freedom to speak Mid Staffs Inquiry, and the freedom to speak up review, which i chaired, was that to speak up review, which i chaired, was that this to speak up review, which i chaired, was that this would lead to a culture was that this would lead to a culture in was that this would lead to a culture in which when people spoke up, culture in which when people spoke up. That culture in which when people spoke up, that would be welcomed. That there up, that would be welcomed. That there would be a proper investigation into their concerns, not into investigation into their concerns, not into them but their concerns. They not into them but their concerns. They would not into them but their concerns. They would then receive an expedition, obviously not all concerned or agreed to, sometimes they are concerned or agreed to, sometimes they are wrong, but people need to have that they are wrong, but people need to have that explained to them. They need have that explained to them. They need support as well. Of course, if there need support as well. Of course, if there is need support as well. Of course, if there is a need support as well. Of course, if there is a concern raised about an individual. There is a concern raised about an individual, that individual need support individual, that individual need support. If everything descends into personalities, then it is the person that the personalities, then it is the person that the gofor, not the issue, and i can never that the gofor, not the issue, and i can never be that the gofor, not the issue, and i can never be the right thing to do for the can never be the right thing to do for the patients. For the patients. Rebecca took a co of for the patients. Rebecca took a copy of your for the patients. Rebecca took a copy of your report for the patients. Rebecca took a copy of your report to for the patients. Rebecca took a i copy of your report to management for the patients. Rebecca took a copy of your report to management to say, look, youre supposed to do this, this is what sir Robert Francis recommended, and does not seem to be happening . I francis recommended, and does not seem to be happening . Seem to be happening . I appreciate that there is seem to be happening . I appreciate that there is always seem to be happening . I appreciate that there is always a seem to be happening . I appreciate that there is always a need seem to be happening . I appreciate that there is always a need for seem to be happening . I appreciate| that there is always a need for some degree that there is always a need for some degree of that there is always a need for some degree of confidentiality. But too often degree of confidentiality. But too often in degree of confidentiality. But too often in my experience, that is often often in my experience, that is often used as an excuse i do not give often used as an excuse i do not Give Expirations to members of staff orto Give Expirations to members of staff or to patients about what has happened. And that needs to be revisited happened. And that needs to be revisited. ,. ,. , revisited. Time and again when somebody revisited. Time and again when somebody raises revisited. Time and again when somebody raises concerns, revisited. Time and again when somebody raises concerns, whether it is Rebecca White or senior consultants who had to apologise to lucy letby for Raising Concerns, or the statistical data at Stafford Hospital showing the deaths were higher than they should have been, the managers attacked, the messenger, the data, rather than focusing on Patient Safety. It is still happening. Why do you think that is . I still happening. Why do you think that is . ~. ,. , that is . I think that there is an absence in that is . I think that there is an absence in the that is . I think that there is an absence in the national that is . I think that there is an absence in the National Health service absence in the National Health service of a proper system of investigating things that might have. One investigating things that might have gone wrong. You should not have to wait until gone wrong. You should not have to wait until you prove that something has gone wait until you prove that something has gone wrong for it to be looked into has gone wrong for it to be looked into and has gone wrong for it to be looked into and i has gone wrong for it to be looked into. And i think that needs to be done into. And i think that needs to be done by into. And i think that needs to be done by qualified and trained people who can done by qualified and trained people who can undertake an and objective who can undertake an and objective inquiry that is independent and one that produces an authoritative result and most investigations, they are undertaken sometimes by Human Resources officers sometimes by Human Resources officers who frankly do not have the expertise officers who frankly do not have the expertise or by people who have a preconceived agenda. Sol expertise or by people who have a preconceived agenda. So i think there preconceived agenda. So i think there needs to be a serious look at how we there needs to be a serious look at how we look at concerns that are raised. How we look at concerns that are raised, whether by staff or patients or serious raised, whether by staff or patients or serious incidents which are known to have or serious incidents which are known to have happened. The or serious incidents which are known to have happened. To have happened. The question was asked about to have happened. The question was asked about why to have happened. The question was asked about why doctors to have happened. The question was asked about why doctors and to have happened. The question was asked about why doctors and nurses| asked about why doctors and nurses can be struck off, yet not hospital managers. Should that change . The time has come for that to be considered very seriously. I recommended that the fit and proper person recommended that the fit and proper person test, there is not one, very surprisingly, person test, there is not one, very surprisingly, a requirement that managers surprisingly, a requirement that managers are fit and proper to do the job managers are fit and proper to do the job and managers are fit and proper to do the job and it seems to me that they do not the job and it seems to me that they do not treat the job and it seems to me that they do not treat Whistle Blowers correctly. It raises an issue about whether correctly. It raises an issue about whether they are fit and proper people. Whether they are fit and proper people, but that has not worked in the time people, but that has not worked in the time has come with a should be a level Playing Field between managers and Health Care Professionals in relation and Health Care Professionals in relation to regulation and i do not think relation to regulation and i do not think that relation to regulation and i do not think that means a new sort of general think that means a new sort of general medical council, what is needed general medical council, what is needed is general medical council, what is needed is a register of people who are managers and a tribunal of some sort which are managers and a tribunal of some sort which can listen to complaints about sort which can listen to complaints about them and investigate them properly about them and investigate them properly. At the moment, when a manager properly. At the moment, when a manager has done something bad in one Trust Manager has done something bad in one trust and goes to another, the new employer has very little means of finding new employer has very little means of finding out what happened before and the of finding out what happened before and the only way of dealing with that is and the only way of dealing with that is to and the only way of dealing with that is to have a system of disciplinary investigation similar to doctors and nurses, and until that happens i am afraid there will not be, that happens i am afraid there will not be, anything with the outside world not be, anything with the outside world would think of as accountability. World would think of as accountability. World would think of as accountabili. ,. , accountability. Thank you both very much for being accountability. Thank you both very much for being here. Accountability. Thank you both very much for being here. We accountability. Thank you both very| much for being here. We appreciate it. Has china being paying someone to spy on mp5 At Westminster . There is fury amongst politicians at the idea a foreign power might have been doing that. The Prime Minister told the commons this afternoon the whole house is rightly appalled at reports of espionage in this building. He was speaking after the sunday times reported a parliamentary researcher and another man had been arrested in march for allegedly spying for china. The researcher says he is completely innocent he has links with at least two Senior Tories now security Minster Tom Tugendhat and alicia kearns, chair of the Foreign Affairs select committee. China, by the way, has called the accusations malicious slander. Remember, the Foreign Secretary flew to beijing the week before last to meet senior chinese officials. Nicks here. Quite a number of people, including Senior Tories, say the uk should Designate China as a threat. What does it mean . Designate china as a threat. What does it mean . ~. ,. , does it mean . What difference would it make . That does it mean . What difference would it make . That is does it mean . What difference would it make . That is a does it mean . What difference would it make . That is a question does it mean . What difference would it make . That is a question liz it make . That is a question liz truss put to the deputy Prime Minister Oliver Dowden in the commons this afternoon and she said, do you agree china is the largest threat to the world and the uk on freedom and democracy . Oliver dowden praised herfor her work in freedom and democracy . Oliver dowden praised her for her work in this area as Prime Minister but then gave area as Prime Minister but then gave a bit of a noncommittal answer, he said we will continue to take whatever steps are necessary based on appropriate advice to provide that protection for our nation. But what is picking up traction is the idea that it is something under the National Security out, called the Draft Guidance on the foreign influence registration scheme. What this requires is that anybody working under the direction of a foreign power with the exception of the Republic Of Ireland has to register that. The Republic Of Ireland has to registerthat. But the Republic Of Ireland has to register that. But it then has a second tier known as the enhanced tier, and that means you have to have a far broader range of registering activities if that power is deemed to be a risk. Tim loughton, the former minister, asked Oliver Dowden about whether china should be added to the list and much more specific response there, Oliver Dowden said we are currently reviewing the country in that advanced here and there is a strong case to be made but we need to go through the proper processes. So not much of a commitment to liz truss but clearly showing serious interest in adding china to this enhanced registration. In adding china to this enhanced reuistration. ,. , registration. There is a big debate in the conservative registration. There is a big debate in the conservative party registration. There is a big debate in the conservative party about i registration. There is a big debate i in the conservative party about how to approach china. Splits amongst senior people. find to approach china. Splits amongst senior people to approach china. Splits amongst senior eole. �. , senior people. And backbenchers. The division was senior people. And backbenchers. The division was right senior people. And backbenchers. The division was right to senior people. And backbenchers. The division was right to the senior people. And backbenchers. The division was right to the heart senior people. And backbenchers. The division was right to the heart of division was right to the heart of the cabinet and i am not sure there would be a division on adding people to the list if they acted under the direction, for example in commercial areas, but whether is division is going down the full hog, the Liz Truss Route of saying, china as a threat and everything that would follow from that, diplomatically and commercially, and if we took that step, there would be reciprocation from china. Step, there would be reciprocation from china step, there would be reciprocation from china. ~ ,. From china. Thank you very much. Let us ask that from china. Thank you very much. Let us ask that question from china. Thank you very much. Let us ask that question to from china. Thank you very much. Let us ask that question to see from china. Thank you very much. Let us ask that question to see what from china. Thank you very much. Let us ask that question to see what the i us ask that question to see what the response might be. Lets talk to former Foreign Secretary sir Malcom Rifkind hes also a former chair of westminster� s intelligence and security committee. And cindy yu, columnist at the Spectator Magazine and host of the podcast chinese whispers. Cindy yu. You know one of those arrested. What did you think when you read the news . I arrested. What did you think when you read the news . Arrested. What did you think when you read the news . I was completely shocked when you read the news . I was completely shocked when i you read the news . I was completely shocked when i read you read the news . I was completely shocked when i read the you read the news . I was completely shocked when i read the news you read the news . I was completely shocked when i read the news on shocked when i read the news on sunday in the sunday times and then i realised that i had not talked to this person since march and for obvious reasons now. He was a completely ordinary seeming intelligent, personal person and westminster is a Small Community in which there is an even Smaller Community with china so i got to know him personally because we both cover this country. Did know him personally because we both cover this country. Cover this country. Did you get any sense he was cover this country. Did you get any sense he was using cover this country. Did you get any sense he was using his cover this country. Did you get any sense he was using his position i cover this country. Did you get any sense he was using his position to| sense he was using his position to perhaps try to influence those behind him to take a softer line on china . , , china . No, i did get the sense there was a concern china . No, i did get the sense there was a concern that china . No, i did get the sense there was a concern that some china . No, i did get the sense there was a concern that some of china . No, i did get the sense there was a concern that some of the was a concern that some of the biggest critics in parliament in china do not know enough about china to levy some of the acquisitions that they often do and i think that there is a certain strain of opinion in parliament, particularly that if you are going to criticise a country try to stem its rise need to at least understand how it works and what its government functions are and what its history means and all of these kind of complicated, sophisticated parts about this large and historically lengthy country. And i think some people did not really know that. Do and i think some people did not really know that. And i think some people did not really know that. Do you want to name names . Really know that. Do you want to name names . No really know that. Do you want to name names . No sir really know that. Do you want to name names . No sir malcolm l really know that. Do you want to name names . No sir malcolm rifkind, has been a marked change in chinese intelligence activity in this country since perhaps you were share of the security and Intelligence Committee back in 2015 . There has been a dramatic Committee Back in 2015 . There has been a dramatic change Committee Back in 2015 . There has been a dramatic change because i Committee Back in 2015 . There has| been a dramatic change because for several been a dramatic change because for several years, been a dramatic change because for severalyears, notjust been a dramatic change because for several years, notjust in the uk but around several years, notjust in the uk but Around The World, the Chinese Government have put pressure on peopte government have put pressure on people of government have put pressure on people of chinese background who happened to be living in the uk or in other happened to be living in the uk or in other countries, warning them that if in other countries, warning them that if they in other countries, warning them that if they can anyway oppose the chinese that if they can anyway oppose the Chinese Government or criticise the government then they would be punished and so forth. What we are seeing punished and so forth. What we are seeing is punished and so forth. What we are seeing is a punished and so forth. What we are seeing is a step change which we have seeing is a step change which we have begun to see the evidence of over the have begun to see the evidence of over the last year or so of the chinese over the last year or so of the chinese now wanting to use british citizens chinese now wanting to use british citizens if chinese now wanting to use british citizens if they can do so to actually citizens if they can do so to actually provide information. We have actually provide information. We have to actually provide information. We have to be actually provide information. We have to be clear. Were not talking at the have to be clear. Were not talking at the moment about information, nationat at the moment about information, national secrets. The House Of Commons national secrets. The House Of Commons Foreign Affairs committee the conservative mps do not have access the conservative mps do not have access to the conservative mps do not have access to that information. But what they will access to that information. But what they will be access to that information. But what they will be interested in, the chinese they will be interested in, the Chinese Government, is private conversations amongst people who are interested conversations amongst people who are interested in china and who are in Parliament Interested in china and who are in parliament as to what their next actions parliament as to what their next actions might be too embarrassed china actions might be too embarrassed china or actions might be too embarrassed china or oppose china and the way it is behaving china or oppose china and the way it is behaving is behaving. Which is why. Which is behaving. Which is why. Which is white liz is behaving. Which is why. Which is white liz truss is behaving. Which is why. Which is white liz truss and is behaving. Which is why. Which is white liz truss and people i is behaving. Which is why. Which is white liz truss and people like l is white liz truss and people like Iain Duncan Smith say the uk should Designate China as a threat. Do Iain Duncan Smith say the uk should Designate China as a threat. Designate china as a threat. Do you auree . Designate china as a threat. Do you agree . That Designate China as a threat. Do you agree . That is Designate China as a threat. Do you agree . That is a Designate China as a threat. Do you agree . That is a wider Designate China as a threat. Do you agree . That is a wider question. If| agree . That is a wider question. If the issue agree . That is a wider question. If the issue is agree . That is a wider question. If the issue is china behaving unacceptably, the answer is yes. So do quite unacceptably, the answer is yes. So do quite a unacceptably, the answer is yes. So do quite a number of other countries in various do quite a number of other countries in various ways, and the term threat has begun in various ways, and the term threat has begun to in various ways, and the term threat has begun to acquire a sort of symbolic has begun to acquire a sort of symbolic significance. Ultimately, if the symbolic significance. Ultimately, if the chinese continue to behave like this, if the chinese continue to behave like this, then a threat is what they like this, then a threat is what they will like this, then a threat is what they will be officially designated but remember, china is a massive country but remember, china is a massive country and but remember, china is a massive country and a massive economy, 20 of the country and a massive economy, 20 of the worlds population, so you do not do of the worlds population, so you do not do these things lightly. The british not do these things lightly. The British Government is sensibly saying British Government is sensibly saying that china is a challenge. To the uk saying that china is a challenge. To the uk and saying that china is a challenge. To the uk. And they are basically saying the uk. And they are basically saying it the uk. And they are basically saying it will probably evolve into a threat saying it will probably evolve into a threat and we will have to designate them as such if it does not change its behaviour. It is designate them as such if it does not change its behaviour. Not change its behaviour. It is a warninu. Not change its behaviour. It is a warning lain not change its behaviour. It is a warning. Iain duncan not change its behaviour. It is a warning. Iain duncan smith i not change its behaviour. It 3 a. Warning. Iain duncan smith suggested a ring of chinese spies At Westminster. Do you buy that . I do not know, westminster. Do you buy that . I do not know. One westminster. Do you buy that . I do not know, one thing that is puzzling about not know, one thing that is puzzling about this not know, one thing that is puzzling about this as we are told the two people about this as we are told the two people were arrested in march, six months people were arrested in march, six months ago, as neither appear to have months ago, as neither appear to have been months ago, as neither appear to have been charged and we do not know whether have been charged and we do not know whether that is because the police are continuing inquiries where they have decided there was not enough evidence have decided there was not enough evidence tojustify have decided there was not enough evidence to justify charges, we simply evidence to justify charges, we simply do evidence to justify charges, we simply do not know. Something will have to simply do not know. Something will have to be simply do not know. Something will have to be said pretty clearly and soon have to be said pretty clearly and soon to have to be said pretty clearly and soon to explain the background and the new soon to explain the background and the new legislation, the National Security the new legislation, the National Security act, that is only coming into effect security act, that is only coming into effect this year so it is possible into effect this year so it is possible that these people, if they were thought to be guilty of this, they cannot be charged under the new legislation they cannot be charged under the new legislation because it was not an act when legislation because it was not an act when they behaved the way they did and act when they behaved the way they did and that might be the explanation. At this stage we need further explanation. At this stage we need further information published, there is no National Security reason why we should is no National Security reason why we should not no more about what is happening we should not no more about what is happening with these inquiries and is charging still possible or is that is charging still possible or is that for is charging still possible or is that for some reason ruled out . Cindy that for some reason ruled out . Cindy yu, that for some reason ruled out . Cindy yu, if that for some reason ruled out . Cindy yu, if the uk designated china as a threat, how do you think china would respond . Brute as a threat, how do you think china would respond . As a threat, how do you think china would respond . We can expect china to rotest would respond . We can expect china to protest in would respond . We can expect china to protest in very would respond . We can expect china to protest in very strong would respond . We can expect china to protest in very strong terms i to protest in very strong terms because that is fundamentally the first thing they can do. We can expect that in bilateral terms, diplomatic indications and also multilateral organisations globally, so at the un china might bring a motion and get other developing countries, as we have seen in the past that have supported china, on board with that. We might also see much more material repercussions, things at the British Consul in china, with china allow that to continue . And what it basically hold hostage this idea of engagement if it is responding to the fact the uk are saying we do not want to engage with you because we see you as a threat . It can only be a downward spiral. What do we know about labour� s position . What do we know about labours osition . ,. , � what do we know about labours osition . , � , position . Foreign policy hasnt been to of keir position . Foreign policy hasnt been top of Keir Starmers position . Foreign policy hasnt been top of Keir Starmers agender. I position . Foreign policy hasnt been | top of Keir Starmers agender. David lammy has come out and said it is an important thing, saying we should not be identifying the people in question but raising questions over china and russia and the conservative governments approach. From talking to labour politicians come it doesnt seem they have an incredibly different approach to this than what rishi sunak� s government to this than what rishi sunak� s government would say. The Review Update said we would go for a robust pragmatism. I do not see keir starmer going away from that. Sir malcolm rifkind, is the uk strategy towards china consistent, we band far away but we allowed them to invest In Manchester airport, the Hinkley Point power station, how does that make sense . Does that make sense . Specific decisions are does that make sense . Specific decisions are taken does that make sense . Specific decisions are taken whether i does that make sense . Specific. Decisions are taken whether there does that make sense . Specific decisions are taken whether there is National Decisions are taken whether there is National Security implications at stake National Security implications at stake. The conclusion was reached on the chinese stake. The conclusion was reached on the chinese were told they would not be allowed to invest with telecommunications because we dont trust their telecommunications because we dont trust their independence will be respected by the Chinese Government, which always does interfere with its own companies. On the investments, there own companies. On the investments, there is own companies. On the investments, there is no own companies. On the investments, there is no National Security at stake there is no National Security at stake we there is no National Security at stake. We have to come to a pretty grownup stake. We have to come to a pretty grown upjudgment here. There are many grown upjudgment here. There are many countries Around The World which many countries Around The World which we many countries Around The World which we thoroughly disapprove of and behave in appalling ways. If you say you and behave in appalling ways. If you say you can and behave in appalling ways. If you say you can only trade or invest with say you can only trade or invest with countries and you approve of everything with countries and you approve of Everything Else they are doing, that has implications forjobs and british has implications forjobs and british exports and matters of that kind british exports and matters of that kind just british exports and matters of that kind. Just taking an extreme example, we have the war with ukraine, example, we have the war with ukraine, we have taken strong sanctions ukraine, we have taken strong sanctions against russia, we still have sanctions against russia, we still have a sanctions against russia, we still have a Russian Ambassador in london. We havent have a Russian Ambassador in london. We havent expelled the Russian Ambassador, because if you stop having ambassador, because if you stop having a ambassador, because if you stop having a dialogue, it doesnt help resolve having a dialogue, it doesnt help resolve the problems at the end of the day resolve the problems at the end of the day. China is a massive country, it is the the day. China is a massive country, it is the elephant in the sitting room. It is the elephant in the sitting room. You it is the elephant in the sitting room, you can pretend it doesnt exist. Room, you can pretend it doesnt exist. But room, you can pretend it doesnt exist. But it room, you can pretend it doesnt exist, but it is still there and at some exist, but it is still there and at some stage you have to try and deal with it some stage you have to try and deal with it that some stage you have to try and deal with it. That doesnt mean you compromise your fundamental values and if compromise your fundamental values and if china compromise your fundamental values and if china behaves in a bad way like the and if china behaves in a bad way like the uyghurs and hong kong, you say so like the uyghurs and hong kong, you say so and like the uyghurs and hong kong, you say so and if they are a threat to our security, they are prevented from doing our security, they are prevented from doing so, National Security has to take from doing so, National Security has to take precedence, even over economic to take precedence, even over economic criteria. It often isnt as stark economic criteria. It often isnt as stark choice economic criteria. It often isnt as stark choice as that and we should bear that stark choice as that and we should bear that in stark choice as that and we should bearthat in mind stark choice as that and we should bear that in mind as well. Stark choice as that and we should bear that in mind as well. Thank you both much, bear that in mind as well. Thank you both much, thank bear that in mind as well. Thank you both much, thank you. This is an American Bully Xl. Hes called fred and hes been bred from two different types of mastiffs and an american bulldog. Hes here with the dog handler who trained him. We thought you should see what the breed looks like, how big they are, and hear what someone whos trained them properly says. And dont worry, weve taken a lot of advice before bringing the dog into the studio. This breed, the American Bully Xl, has come under scrutiny from the Home Secretary after footage at the weekend from birmingham, which well play in a second, which shows an American Bully Xl attacking an 11 Year Old Girl and two men. Suella braverman watched the video, it appears, because she tweeted that shes seeking urgent advice on banning the breed. Today, the girl who was attacked has also called for the breed to be banned. Here is an extract from the footage, followed by a clip of a mum of a ten year old boy called jack lis, who was attacked by this type of dog and died almost two years ago. Shouting. I could have told you as a lethal breed in november 2021. Watching the video was like. The frustration comes back again because its still happening and seeing the fear in people as theyre literally running for their lives. I understand that fear. I was in parliament in march this year, speaking to mp5 about why i think there needs to be changes to the law and they werent interested then and theres a lot of frustration around that. Why is it taking this video and not a childs life to do something . That was jack liss mum, emma whitfield. According to Academic Research from royal holloway, university of london, in 2021, two of the four fatal dog attacks in the uk were caused by the bully xl, The Other Two by staffordhsire. In 2022 six of the ten fatalites were caused by them, and in 2023 five people died, it seems, after attacks by these dogs, according to dr lawrence newport, who is here now along with freds trainer, Jo Rosie Haffenden from norfolk. Welcome to both of you. First of all, how does a breed like this end p all, how does a breed like this end up attacking a child or an adult . It is a myriad of things. It is poor breeding, we dont have the right breeding, we dont have the right breeding regulations in the dog industry. We dont have very smart breeding regulations to ensure the dogs have been bred for the right things and to meet the demand. We have a certain amount of pet homes that have pets that look a certain way and we have other homes that need other types of working breeds to be bred. Unfortunately the balance isnt right and people are breeding more dogs for supporting and working purposes and protection and working purposes and protection and they end up in family homes. Equally, i dont think there is enough education out there for the public about what breeds they should be getting and what the breed needs. If you have a dog like fred, he needs a lot of mental stimulation, physical stimulation, needs a lot of mental stimulation, physicalstimulation, he needs a lot of mental stimulation, physical stimulation, he needs to socialise in a very particular way. He is lucky he has a very good dog owner, who is also a train and she manages those things for him. Let me brina manages those things for him. Let me bring in lawrence manages those things for him. Let me bring in lawrence newport, do bring in lawrence newport, do you believe this breed should be banned . The american bully is a uniquely dangerous the american bully is a uniquely dangerous breed of dog. It is responsible, as you have said for 80 responsible, as you have said for 80 of responsible, as you have said for 80 of deaths to dog since 2021, a breed 80 of deaths to dog since 2021, a breed that 80 of deaths to dog since 2021, a breed that has only been involved in the uk breed that has only been involved in the uk since 2018 and is responsible for the the uk since 2018 and is responsible for the single greatest increase in deaths for the single greatest increase in deaths to for the single greatest increase in deaths to dog since records began in the uk. That isjust deaths. On a tax it is the uk. That isjust deaths. On a tax it is responsible for about 50 of all tax it is responsible for about 50 of all attacks, including on other dogs for of all attacks, including on other dogs. For one week injuly this of all attacks, including on other dogs. For one week in july this year there dogs. For one week in july this year there was dogs. For one week in july this year there was one dog a day killed by an american there was one dog a day killed by an american bully. Gk, there was one dog a day killed by an american bully american bully. Ok, when you hear those stats. American bully. Ok, when you hear those stats, what american bully. Ok, when you hear those stats, what do american bully. Ok, when you hear those stats, what do you american bully. Ok, when you hear those stats, what do you think . I i those stats, what do you think . I think banning any breed is completely ineffective and those stats provide information that suggests that. We have tried to ban dangerous dogs and in fact attacks have gone up. There will be a demand for dogs that look like this. Lawrence is shaking his head in disagreement. 5 lawrence is shaking his head in disagreement. Lawrence is shaking his head in disaureement. A. , disagreement. As you say, the dogs have been bred disagreement. As you say, the dogs have been bred and disagreement. As you say, the dogs have been bred and prevalent i disagreement. As you say, the dogs have been bred and prevalent in i disagreement. As you say, the dogs| have been bred and prevalent in this country since 2018 after the ban of pit bulls. There is a demand for dogs that behave and look this way. When we band pit bulls we ended up with bigger, stronger and more powerfulft. If we ban with bigger, stronger and more powerful ft. If we ban these dogs we will end up with something bigger, stronger and more powerful. The ban on it bulls stronger and more powerful. The ban on pit bulls from stronger and more powerful. The ban on pit bulls from 1991 stronger and more powerful. The ban on pit bulls from 1991 has stronger and more powerful. The ban on pit bulls from 1991 has been i stronger and more powerful. The ban on pit bulls from 1991 has been very i on pit bulls from 1991 has been very effective on pit bulls from 1991 has been very effective. Fatality figures have been effective. Fatality figures have been low, even while the Dog Population have dramatically increased over 30 years, fatalities have increased over 30 years, fatalities have been increased over 30 years, fatalities have been remaining low. It is only once have been remaining low. It is only once a have been remaining low. It is only once a pit have been remaining low. It is only once a Pit Bull Type of slip through the net once a Pit Bull Type of slip through the net and has been imported in 2018. The net and has been imported in 2018. We the net and has been imported in 2018, we suddenly find an unprecedented number of deaths attacks unprecedented number of deaths attacks and severity of attacks increasing. It is very, very clear the difference from 2018 tells us that previously the bands were working that previously the bands were working and the these dogs were brought working and the these dogs were brought in by a loophole, shows the bans were brought in by a loophole, shows the bans were very effective and shows a picture bans were very effective and shows a picture of bans were very effective and shows a picture of what it looks like if the bands picture of what it looks like if the bands were not in place. What picture of what it looks like if the bands were not in place. What do you mean when bands were not in place. What do you mean when you bands were not in place. What do you mean when you say bands were not in place. What do you mean when you say loophole . Bands were not in place. What do you mean when you say loophole . They l mean when you say loophole . They were recognised mean when you say loophole . They were recognised as mean when you say loophole . They were recognised as a mean when you say loophole . They were recognised as a Pit Bull Type until around 2015 when they were court until around 2015 when they were court cases and they were