tonight the united nations hears a claim that 3,200 children have been killed in gaza injust three weeks, more than the number of children killed annually across the world's conflict zones since 2019. as israel's ground operation continues, what next for this escalting conflict? tonight talking us through israel's strategy for its ground operation inside gaza, mark will be with us. we'll be hearing from the director of a palestinian medical aid charity who refuses to leave northern gaza. everywhere you go right now there is a complete disaster happening right now and gaza strip. people are saying that gazza is the new aleppo, so i am still standing in the north of gaza and i believe i still have my dignity with me, staying in my home, scrapping for whatever food and water. and as the united nations security council holds another emergency meeting tonight, we'll bejoined live by an israeli cabinet minister and the un special rapporteur for the palestinian territories. is the unity over israel in the labour party coming apart at the seams? the party leadership suspends andy mcdonald over a speech about the conflict, sparking furious criticism from some who think sir keir starmer needs to change course. we'll discuss with one ofjeremy corbyn�*s former leutienants and a one time labour mp who quit the party the party over anti—semitism. and where's the line between the right to protest and the need to curtail extremism? as the home secretary brands saturday�*s pro—palestine march a "hate march" does the uk have a problem, or is itjust freedom of speech in action? we'll ask a former head of the uk's joint intelligence committee and a human rights campaigner if the law needs to change. good evening. in the last two hours the united nations security council has heard a particularly stark statistic. citing a report by the charity save the children, philippe lazzarini, the head of the un agency that supports palestinians in gaza, told an emergency meeting that 3,200 children had been killed there since october 7th. that's more children killed in gaza, he said, than have died in any one year since 2019 across all conflicts around the world. with confirmed information hard to come by amidst the chaos in gaza, of course no data can be officially verified. but as the israeli operations by land, sea and air continue nobody doubts the scale of its destruction on the gaza strip. today the israeli military announced it had freed a hostage, private 0ri megidish who was taken captive by hamas on october 5th. her liberation came after hamas, proscribed a terror organisation by many western governments, released a video of three other hostages, all women, who are still in capitivty. in the 76—second clip, which the bbc is not showing, the women are seated together on plastic chairs. 0nly danielle aloni, in the middle, speaks. addressing the camera she accuses benjamin netanyahu and the israeli government of failing to defend them. she says, "we are getting punished for your political, national neglect." this on the day when israeli troops and tanks attack gaza city from both sides. here's mark. the israeli army has mounted a succession of probing missions into gaza during the past week. the information blackout that started on friday has been lifted, apparently due to american pressure on israel. so today we know that the northernmost advance has been developed about four kilometres into gaza, along the coast. and the one just south of gaza city to the point where the salah al—dini main road has been cut. in these advances the israelis seem to be trying to draw out their enemy into an unfairfight. as for how long it will last, the decision will not be israel's alone. what we don't really understand is the full level of ambition. how far does israel want to go on this one? and the otherfactor that i think is going to play is what is the duration of this campaign? as far as i can see there is still a lot of us support for this, but as we have seen in previous operations, in previous wars in israel, lebanon in 2006 in particular, that international support is not going to be unlimited. i have said right from the outset that i believe the idf perhaps maybe have 30 days, 60 days, 90 days at most, to achieve their objectives. as to how these operations may develop, conventional military wisdom about fighting in built up areas suggests slicing through to divide an enemy into smaller pockets. a push along the two main axes in order to surround gaza city therefore seems likely. in the future perhaps other thrusts to divide the strip into thirds or quarters. but these tactics will produce violent confrontations with local people as well as armed opposition. and they risk dramatically worsening humanitarian conditions. israeli fire is falling closer to the shifa and al-quds hospitals, both near the sea front in gaza city. they have been warned to evacuate but aid agencies consider that idea completely impractical. this is the impossible dilemma, that no doctor or nurse should face. leave the hospital to seek safety, but leave their patients behind, or stay in the hospital risking their lives. palestinian red crescent teams have said clearly they will stay with their patients. and, as the israeli army presses deeper, sitting astride important thoroughfares, the distribution of aid could get more and more difficult. currently the rafah crossing is the only route in. a0 trucks came through yesterday, and israel has reportedly promised america that it will allow 100 a day through in future. as for the security of the rafah crossing itself, the israeli army did conduct a probing mission in the far south of gaza at the weekend, onto the territory of gaza's disused airport. that caused egypt to warn israel that they should not try to re—establish the iii—kilometre route to rafah that used to be called the philadelphia road, positions israel gave up in 2005. why would they even try? it's not clear but it could indicate a longer term ambition to control access via the egyptian border. that's all some way off even if it does happen. the questions for the next few days will centre on operations around gaza city and whether the humanitarian consequences prompt further us pressure on israel. well, today israel defence forces say its troops had killed dozens of terrorists who had barricaded themselves into buildings and tunnels and attempted to attack its troops, while the palestinian red crescent said that it was impossible to follow an israeli evacuation orderfor al-quds hopital in northern gaza, because they could not move hundreds of the patients who were being treated there. eye witnesses described heavy shelling around the hospital. so what is the experience of gazans still trying to live in the north of the territory? two weeks ago the gaza director of medical aid for palestininans, who is married with three young children, said that he would rather die with dignity in his home than leave northern gaza. when i spoke to mahmoud shalani earlier toay he was adamant that that was still the case, despite what he called a "horror house" in hospitals, including people being operated on without anaesthetic and a fatal bombardment in his own neighbourhood. i still have the same beliefs. day by day my belief it actually gets bigger and bigger, so i'm still standing in the north of gaza and i believe that i still have my dignity with me, staying in my home, scrapping for whatever food and water there is still in the north. you have three children, your wife as well, but it is very dangerous where you are, there has been a bombardment, has there not? two days ago suddenly there was a very loud explosion and my daughter, seven years old, her name is mesc, she was next to me with my other children, and i hugged her because she started crying hysterically and shouting. i rushed outside to see what was happening in my neighbourhood. i have seen people on the ground, i have seen shrapnel everywhere, i have seen destroyed cars, but when the dust settled a bit we saw the devastation and the destruction. ten of my neighbours got killed, including four children in this air strike. so let me just say to you, to offer my condolences for those deaths and those injuries, but what does it do to your own children when they hear that? panic and fear, so my daughter now is asking me continuously whether we are going to die or not. my eldest, zac, who is nine years old, at the beginning of the war on that day when the bombardment happened when he was looking at me, at his mum and we were also panicking, not knowing what was going to happen to us. before he went to bed he came to me, he hugged me and he said, "nothing is going to happen to us, dad." that's. .. i can't describe how i am feeling right now because i am the one who is supposed to provide comfort and assurance for my children, not the other way around. israel says that, for example, al shifa hospital is not protected under international law because hamas are operating in that area out of the hospital, underneath? what do you say to that? these are hospitals, in a nutshell. shifa for example has 40,000 internally displaced people and it is filled with health professionals. the turkish palestinian friendship hospital, which is the only cancer hospital in gaza, has been targeted twice today. hospitals should remain hospitals and no—one should be touching or threatening them to begin with. i suppose the argument would be that hamas has said that they do have many tunnels under gaza and it is possible that some of these tunnels are under hospitals. i'm not a spokesperson of hamas and i am a humanitarian. i have never seen any of the tunnels that they are speaking about. that doesn't give an excuse for people to destroy neighbourhoods. this morning the spokesman of the israeli government, elon levi, told the bbc there is sufficient food in gaza. no, there isn't, there isn't. these are just pure lies. what aid is coming through rafah is very tiny in comparison to what was allowed previously. palestinians broke into an aid warehouse in khan younis in the south. do you worry about civil unrest? yes, of course. if you have a generator, you can pump that water into your home or you can rely on your neighbours to provide you with some water to survive for the remainder of the week. once that stops i am pretty sure that there will be public unrest and there will be a huge, catastrophic consequences. mahmoud shalani, thank you very much forjoining us. we're joined now yoav kisch — he's israel's education minister and a member of benjamin netanyahu's cabinet and likud party. thank you very much forjoining us. as i said, you are the education minister. you deal with the lives of children day in, day out. what do you make of that statistic? in the last few hours we have heard that more children have been killed in this conflict in three weeks, more than 3000, in any year since 2019. is that collateral damage? israel is doing whatever it can to avoid collateral damage. we are fighting evil, we are fighting hamas isis is taking the palestinians as hostage and using them as a shield and they are trying to behind them. i myself used to be a fighter pilot, i can tell you that we are doing all what we can to avoid that. they are trying to be behind civilians. we have more than 30 children, the youngest is nine months old, that is being held hostage. they have been kidnapped from their homes. i am not talking about the hundreds that they killed and burned alive in israel. this is evil that you cannot imagine. this is evil that you cannot imagine-— this is evil that you cannot imauine. ~ . ., imagine. we are determined... you tarueted a imagine. we are determined... you targeted a cancer _ imagine. we are determined... you targeted a cancer hospital- imagine. we are determined... you targeted a cancer hospital and - imagine. we are determined... you targeted a cancer hospital and you | targeted a cancer hospital and you heard from mahmoud, in his neighbourhood his neighbours were killed and four children were killed. why bombard an ordinary neighbourhood?— killed. why bombard an ordinary neighbourhood? israel provided a safe zone in _ neighbourhood? israel provided a safe zone in the _ neighbourhood? israel provided a safe zone in the south _ neighbourhood? israel provided a safe zone in the south of - neighbourhood? israel provided a safe zone in the south of gaza, i safe zone in the south of gaza, including a corridor to evacuate people for a safe place. those who are staying in the war zone are actually playing to the hamas hands and being put in danger, so we are doing whatever we can to avoid that. but i must tell you, that like in the nazis, or like isis, you cannot let evil prevail. we have to do this for the whole good of humanity. we are fighting this war, israel is fighting this war, for the whole free nations.— fighting this war, for the whole free nations. you would say that --eole free nations. you would say that peeple staying _ free nations. you would say that peeple staying in _ free nations. you would say that people staying in the _ free nations. you would say that people staying in the northern . free nations. you would say that i people staying in the northern area are playing into hamas's hands, but what do you say to doctors who are refusing to leave their patients who cannot be moved? it is the hippocratic oath will stop doctors are trying to help patients in hospitals that can't be moved, are they legitimate targets and are the family's legitimate targets? because some people would say that actually there are not safe corridors. khan younis has been bombarded as well. what you say to these doctors who are staying with their patients? fire are staying with their patients? are the are staying with their patients? fife: they doing are staying with their patients? fife they doing the are staying with their patients? fie they doing the wrong thing? of course they are not targets, it is the opposite. hamas is trying to use them. let me ask you a question. you were fighting the nazis, how about if the would stay behind to households? what would you do to stop this war machine that is fighting and killing your civilians that has no limits in the way that they are attacking humanity? so we do whatever we can to make sure that non—civilians are being harmed and i totally don't agree with you, we enabled safe corridors. there are more than a million people who already left the north, so whoever wants to live kindly. i heard hamas is flooding them with guns not to go to the south, so we are doing the opposite and hamas is actually putting the lives of the civilians in danger in order to protect themselves. but a lot of people cannot move to the south and i come back again to the south and i come back again to the central question, in all this, and what happened in israel, of course, it's appalling, but it's also appalling that more than 3000 children have died in three weeks. if you have got air strikes and land and bombs, you see yourself, even if you are trying to minimise damage, children are dying and they are dying in their thousands. from every loss of life that _ dying in their thousands. from every loss of life that is _ dying in their thousands. from every loss of life that is not _ dying in their thousands. from every loss of life that is not part _ dying in their thousands. from every loss of life that is not part of the - loss of life that is not part of the war is a price that nobody wants to play and we are doing whatever we can to avoid it. i'm saying it again and again. but you have to understand, we have one mission, to destroy hamas militants. they have shown to the whole world that they are worse than isis, worse than nazis, they are the axis of terror and the worst enemy that humankind has ever seen, even more than the nazis. we are doing whatever we can that there be no other casualties, but we must say and say again, we will continue in our mission, we are not going to stop and i heard your chris brunt say before about how long time israel is going to have, it's not anything like what happened before. we had more than 1000 people slaughtered by hamas. thank before. we had more than 1000 people slaughtered by hamas.— slaughtered by hamas. thank you. there is no — slaughtered by hamas. thank you. there is no chance _ slaughtered by hamas. thank you. there is no chance to _ slaughtered by hamas. thank you. there is no chance to live - slaughtered by hamas. thank you. there is no chance to live in - slaughtered by hamas. thank you. there is no chance to live in peace| there is no chance to live in peace with hamas. there is no chance to live in peace with hamas-— there is no chance to live in peace with hamas. ., ~ , ., , . ., with hamas. thank you very much for “oininu us. joining me now is francesca albanese — she's the united nations�* special rapporteur on the occupied palestinian territories. do you agree that hamas deliberately seed themselves among the civilian population? i seed themselves among the civilian --oulation? h, ., seed themselves among the civilian --oulation? ., ,, .,~ ., ., population? i cannot speak on what hamas does — population? i cannot speak on what hamas does and _ population? i cannot speak on what hamas does and thinks, _ population? i cannot speak on what hamas does and thinks, but - population? i cannot speak on what hamas does and thinks, but i - population? i cannot speak on what| hamas does and thinks, but i would like to make some comments and some remarks from an international law perspective. there are israeli leaders who are reported, on record, saying that hamas was an asset and the place to authority was a liability, so what israel is doing clearly, and it has been reflected in statements by israeli political leaders since the very beginning, it's not to destroy hamas militarily but it's to eradicate hamas as a whole entity hamas is a movement, notjust whole entity hamas is a movement, not just a whole entity hamas is a movement, notjust a political whole entity hamas is a movement, not just a political wing. whole entity hamas is a movement, notjust a political wing. plan, and prescribed as a terrorist organisation by many governments. i5 organisation by many governments. is a rapporteur, you are advocating for the palestinian people many palestinians have nothing to do with hamas. flan palestinians have nothing to do with hamas. ., . , palestinians have nothing to do with hamas. . . , ., ., hamas. can excuse me, i do not advocate — hamas. can excuse me, i do not advocate for — hamas. can excuse me, i do not advocate for the _ hamas. can excuse me, i do not advocate for the palestinian - hamas. can excuse me, i do not. advocate for the palestinian people, you are wrong. i advocate for the application of international law, human rights and justice. [30 application of international law, human rights and justice. human rights and 'ustice. do you think hamas — human rights and justice. do you think hamas cares _ human rights and justice. do you think hamas cares that more - human rights and justice. do you | think hamas cares that more than 3000 children died and more have been wounded, orphaned and traumatised? do you agree that hamas is breaking the law?— is breaking the law? excuse me, what auestion is is breaking the law? excuse me, what question is it? — is breaking the law? excuse me, what question is it? i don't _ is breaking the law? excuse me, what question is it? i don't know— is breaking the law? excuse me, what question is it? i don't know if- question is it? i don't know if hammers or not but i know it is israel's responsibility not to bomb 360 square kilometre strip of land where the people are besieged. excuse me, i cannot be known to be when i've just heard somebody saying we are doing everything we can to avoid civilian loss of life stop this is not true, because 1000 people have really been killed, and if the commissioner general says that 3500 children, around 3500 children have been killed, even if it's not fully verified, it means that it's likely, highly likely, because journalists and staff members have been killed, 50% of the civilian infrastructure in gaza has been destroyed for the palestinians have nowhere to go for the peas imagine what it is to have 2 million people, 200,000 living in 300 square metres, which is being bombed north to south. where do these people have to south. where do these people have to go? there is no safe haven. these people are trapped and are being killed. this is what israel is pursuing the this is the genocide logic that is undergoing and while we speak an israeli human rights organisations ask you what to look at what is happening. plan, can we be quite clear, genocide is at what is happening. plan, can we be quite clear, genocide— be quite clear, genocide is not what's happening _ be quite clear, genocide is not what's happening here? - be quite clear, genocide is not what's happening here? or- be quite clear, genocide is not| what's happening here? or are be quite clear, genocide is not - what's happening here? or are you suggesting genocide is what is happening? share suggesting genocide is what is happening?— suggesting genocide is what is happening? are you saying it's happening _ happening? are you saying it's happening or— happening? are you saying it's happening or not? _ happening? are you saying it's happening or not? i'm - happening? are you saying it's happening or not? i'm asking l happening? are you saying it's l happening or not? i'm asking for our happening or not? i'm asking for your opinion- _ happening or not? i'm asking for your opinion. i know _ happening or not? i'm asking for your opinion. i know that - happening or not? i'm asking for i your opinion. i know that genocide is one of those _ your opinion. i know that genocide is one of those atrocity _ your opinion. i know that genocide is one of those atrocity crimes - your opinion. i know that genocide | is one of those atrocity crimes that needs to be prevented and 8000 people killed are absolutely a red flag had should alert the international community to intervene because, yes, there is a risk of it. thank you forjoining us. tonight the labour leadership has taken the whip away from the mp andy mcdonald after a speech at a rally at the weekend in which he used a phrase that can mean the obliteration of israel, although andy mcdonald denies that was his intention when he used the expression "from the river to the sea". he said, and i quote, "we won't rest until all people, israelis and palesitinans between the river and the sea can live in peaceful liberty." earlier in the speech, quoting a palestinian living in the southern gaza strip, he said, "what is happening here is not about hamas at all, it's about ethnically cleansing palestinian people." nick is here. nick, can you bring us up to date? earlier this evening, the labour chief whip allan campbell placed andy mcdonald under what is called a precautionary suspension for three months. the party will now carry out an investigation and andy mcdonald says he looks forward to cooperating fully with that inquiry to this all happened two days after andy mcdonald gave a speech to a pro—palestinian rally in london and these are the remarks at the height of this row. until all people, israelis and palestinians, between the river and the sea, can live in peace with liberty. free, free, palestine. it is andy mcdonald possible use of that highly contentious phrase, between the river and the sea, which explains why he is in trouble. he says he chose those words with care because he said he wanted all of the people in that geographic area from the riverjordan to the mediterranean sea, to live in peaceful liberty. but many israeli people and, indeed, manyjewish people and, indeed, manyjewish people around the world, leave that phrase is used by people who believe one of two things, jewish people are not welcome in that part of the world orjewish people can live in that part of the world but not in their homeland, and those two views at up to one thing, no state of bliss rail. andy mcdonald says, he absolutely does not share any of those views. he says he's been a long subbrand supporter of his two—state solution, israel and a viable palestinian state living in peace side by side he also says the current ambassador, israeli ambassador to the uk, has used that phrase to argue for a one state solution, the state of israel to stop this is what she said in 2015, when she was typically foreign ministerfor israel, according to when she was typically foreign minister for israel, according to a daily telegraph report at the time for we have to return to the basic truth of our right to this land. this entire land is ours. all of it, from the sea to the river, and we are not here to apologise for this. it is important to say that the ambassador recently told the unheard website she regards those words as a genocidal chance when used by pro—palestinian protesters. this andy mcdonald explanation got short shrift by the labour leadership. they say is a highly experienced mp and he knows the residents of that phrase and he knows it causes to people who believe it refers to wanting to wipe out israel and the leadershipjust forgot wanting to wipe out israel and the leadership just forgot his remarks as unnecessarily provocative. plan, this move came shortly after a conservative minister was sacked for calling for a ceasefire in gaza. so do you think the move by keir starmer had anything to do that? in a sense, he wanted to stab his authority after some of his mps have called for a ceasefire?— called for a ceasefire? the labour leadership are _ called for a ceasefire? the labour leadership are saying _ called for a ceasefire? the labour leadership are saying absolutely l leadership are saying absolutely not. they say it's a lengthy process to suspend the web from andy mcdonald and that was well under way before anybody knew about that government aid, paul bristow. but keir starmer is under pressure, with many of his frontbenchers publicly calling for a ceasefire in gaza rather than a humanitarian pause he favours. i understand that andy mcdonald has had a lot of support from labour mps, including the front bench, but keir starmer is standing his ground stop he supports humanitarian forces in gaza, not a ceasefire. well, joining us now is james schneider. he was the labour party's director of communications during jeremy corbyn's leadership. and dame louise ellman, a former mp who left the labour party amidst the rows over anti—semitism. she has since rejoined. thank you both very much forjoining us tonight. louise ellman, what did you feel when you heard the words from the river to the sea?- you feel when you heard the words from the river to the sea? well, the chants about _ from the river to the sea? well, the chants about freeing _ from the river to the sea? well, the chants about freeing palestine - from the river to the sea? well, the chants about freeing palestine from | chants about freeing palestine from the river_ chants about freeing palestine from the river to — chants about freeing palestine from the river to the sea is well known to mean— the river to the sea is well known to mean the elimination of the jewish— to mean the elimination of the jewish state, the state of israel. in jewish state, the state of israel. in the _ jewish state, the state of israel. in the context we now have, when three _ in the context we now have, when three weeks ago the jewish people suffered _ three weeks ago the jewish people suffered their worst loss of life since _ suffered their worst loss of life since the — suffered their worst loss of life since the holocaust, with over 1400 people _ since the holocaust, with over 1400 people massacred in their own homes, over 800 _ people massacred in their own homes, over 800 anti—semitic hate incidents towards _ over 800 anti—semitic hate incidents towardsjewish people in this country— towardsjewish people in this country in the last three weeks, there _ country in the last three weeks, there is— country in the last three weeks, there is a — country in the last three weeks, there is a contest where jewish people — there is a contest where jewish people feel increasingly concerned and anxious. in that context, for somebody— and anxious. in that context, for somebody to be joining in a chant of from the _ somebody to be joining in a chant of from the river to the sea is provocative and designed to induce anxiety _ provocative and designed to induce anxiety. but provocative and designed to induce anxie . �* , ., provocative and designed to induce anxie .�* ., ., anxiety. but the israeli ambassador used the words _ anxiety. but the israeli ambassador used the words in _ anxiety. but the israeli ambassador used the words in context - anxiety. but the israeli ambassador used the words in context not - used the words in context not meaning the obliteration indeed of israel. there are other ways it can be used. keir starmer removed the whip from andy mcdonald. do you think that has reaffirmed your decision to rejoin or do you question your decision to rejoin in the light of this affair? the context of _ the light of this affair? the context of the _ the light of this affair? the context of the chanting from the river_ context of the chanting from the river to — context of the chanting from the river to the sea is very clearly about — river to the sea is very clearly about getting rid of the state of israei. — about getting rid of the state of israel, and i notice that the palestine solidarity committee earlier — palestine solidarity committee earlier this evening could not bring themselves to say they supported the existence _ themselves to say they supported the existence of the state of israel to top if— existence of the state of israel to top if you — existence of the state of israel to top if you ask me about my decision top if you ask me about my decision to rejoin _ top if you ask me about my decision to rejoin the — top if you ask me about my decision to rejoin the labour party, i rejoined _ to rejoin the labour party, i rejoined the labour party because i could _ rejoined the labour party because i could see _ rejoined the labour party because i could see that keir starmer is a new leader— could see that keir starmer is a new leader was— could see that keir starmer is a new leader was been true to his word and was addressing the culture of anti—semitism in the labour party and change — anti—semitism in the labour party and change it, and i took the right decision — and change it, and i took the right decision i— and change it, and i took the right decision. i can see that he is doing it. decision. i can see that he is doing it the _ decision. i can see that he is doing it. the decision he has taken currently— it. the decision he has taken currently on this very difficult situation _ currently on this very difficult situation is a position of the leadership. being a leader is not easy— leadership. being a leader is not easy and — leadership. being a leader is not easy and taking the right decision doesn't _ easy and taking the right decision doesn't always make you popular. plan, _ doesn't always make you popular. plan he _ doesn't always make you popular. plan, he was being a leader. james schneider. — plan, he was being a leader. james schneider. you _ plan, he was being a leader. james schneider, you are _ plan, he was being a leader. james schneider, you are jewish - plan, he was being a leader. james schneider, you are jewish to - plan, he was being a leader. james schneider, you are jewish to out. plan, he was being a leader. james schneider, you are jewish to out of| schneider, you arejewish to out of these words make you feel? keir starmer, these words make you feel? keir starmer. live _ these words make you feel? keir starmer, live on _ these words make you feel? keir starmer, live on air, _ these words make you feel? he " starmer, live on air, endorsed these words make you feel? i;e " starmer, live on air, endorsed the war crimes which have led to the deaths of thousands of children and then sent emily thornberry onto this programme to also endorse war crimes which led to the deaths of thousands of children. andy mcdonald said that he won't rest until he sees israelis and palestinians living together in the holy land in peaceful liberty and he was suspended. welcome to the topsy—turvy world of keir starmer�*s labour party. share topsy-turvy world of keir starmer's labour party-— labour party. are there not certain hrases labour party. are there not certain phrases that _ labour party. are there not certain phrases that are _ labour party. are there not certain phrases that are so _ labour party. are there not certain phrases that are so loaded, - labour party. are there not certain phrases that are so loaded, why i phrases that are so loaded, why would you use it? andy mcdonald is a seasoned politician. why would he do it? , , seasoned politician. why would he do it? , y ., , seasoned politician. why would he do it? , y seasoned politician. why would he do it? ,_,_ ., .,, it? firstly, as you said to louise ellman, words _ it? firstly, as you said to louise ellman, words to _ it? firstly, as you said to louise ellman, words to have - it? firstly, as you said to louise ellman, words to have contact l it? firstly, as you said to louise i ellman, words to have contact and they mean different the context he said it in is very clearly a call for, quote, peaceful liberty between israelis and palestinians. to read it another way is absurd. let me push back on saying to the river to the sea, palestine will be free, is in any way controversial, because it is not. the palestinians between there are dispossessed so it is a call for justice, and doesn't mean a reversal of the current situation. living under apartheid, now being bombed and having war crimes committed against them, it will be israelis. it means all people living together, as andy mcdonald said, in peaceful liberty. what you think the impact of removing the rip will be? i5 removing the rip will be? i3 ludicrous. you endorse war crimes and you are fine in the labour party. and you are fine in the labour pa . ;, , and you are fine in the labour pa . . , . , , party. that is a very big accusation. _ party. that is a very big accusation. i— party. that is a very big accusation. i am - party. that is a very big l accusation. i am referring party. that is a very big - accusation. i am referring to the lbc interview _ accusation. i am referring to the lbc interview and _ accusation. i am referring to the lbc interview and emily - accusation. i am referring to the - lbc interview and emily thornberry's interview setting in this studio in this very chair. i(eir interview setting in this studio in this very chair.— this very chair. keir starmer actually does _ this very chair. keir starmer actually does not _ this very chair. keir starmer actually does not support... this very chair. keir starmer - actually does not support... has he at any point — actually does not support... has he at any point condemned _ actually does not support... has he at any point condemned the - actually does not support... has he at any point condemned the war i at any point condemned the war crimes we are seeing? no, he has not. it took days before they clarified that he hadn't heard the question. but i sent emily thornberry out onto this very programme. thornberry out onto this very programme-— thornberry out onto this very rouramme. ~ ., ., .,~ ., programme. what do you make of james' point. _ programme. what do you make of james' point, that _ programme. what do you make of james' point, that it _ programme. what do you make of james' point, that it is _ programme. what do you make of james' point, that it is about - james' point, that it is about content, and it is perfectly possible to read this as the two—state solution, the people together. two-state solution, the people to . ether. . ., two-state solution, the people touether. . ., ., two-state solution, the people touether. ., ., , together. the context of angry crowds calling _ together. the context of angry crowds calling for _ together. the context of angry crowds calling forjihad - together. the context of angry crowds calling forjihad with i together. the context of angry i crowds calling forjihad with their posters— crowds calling forjihad with their posters after the massacre of so many _ posters after the massacre of so manyjewish people, using the phrase that is— manyjewish people, using the phrase that is very— manyjewish people, using the phrase that is very well known to mean the elimination— that is very well known to mean the elimination of the state of israel is outrageous. the way to solve this tragic— is outrageous. the way to solve this tragic conflict between the israelis and palestinians for there to be two states, _ and palestinians for there to be two states, an _ and palestinians for there to be two states, an israeli state and a palestinian state and that they can work in _ palestinian state and that they can work in harmony. the sooner we can achieve _ work in harmony. the sooner we can achieve that, — work in harmony. the sooner we can achieve that, the better.— achieve that, the better. thank you very much. — achieve that, the better. thank you very much. both — achieve that, the better. thank you very much, both of _ achieve that, the better. thank you very much, both of you. _ the home secretary today described the pro—palestinian marches that have taken place in london since the outbreak of the war in the middle east as "hate marches". suella braverman said the government would consider changing the law to tighten up on the ability of protestors to, as she sees it, stir up anti—semitism. of course, the 100,000 people who attended saturday's march would argue they had used their right to protest to object to the severity of israel's response to the hamas attacks rather than to the existence of israel itself. the home secretary has previously called for the police to tackle what she sees as extremist attitudes, but sir mark rowley, chief of the metropolitan police, has said there is "a gap" in legislation on the issue. here's sima. chanting. over the weekend, more than 100,000 people took part in a protest in london, calling for a ceasefire in gaza. the march was organised by the palestinian solidarity campaign. the vast majority of those whojoined it were peaceful. nine were arrested and five were charged, including for public order offences. today, the home secretary called the protests "hate marches" and said the police must take a zero tolerance approach to anti—semitism. we've seen now tens of thousands of people take to the streets following the massacre ofjewish people, the single largest loss ofjewish life since the holocaust, chanting for the erasure of israel from the map. to my mind, there's only one way to describe those marches. they are hate marches. some people have criticised the police, including the government, for not doing enough to clamp down on what they deem to be hateful extremism, which is defined by the commission for countering extremism as: activity or materials directed at a group who are perceived as a threat to a group motivated by or intending to advance a political, religious or racial supremacist ideology. in the concentration camps of palestine... just earlier this month, there were more protests, some by different groups. footage appeared online of a man chanting, "jihad, jihad" at a smaller rally staged by the islamist group hizb ut—tahrir, a group banned in parts of europe and the middle east. scotland yard was criticised for not taking action against those chanting "jihad," a term used to convey striving or struggling. in this context, some felt it was inciting terrorism. after analysing the video, the police said, "no offence had taken place and that the term jihad had multiple meanings". and that's what's triggered this debate. the metropolitan police chief says that he is restricted by the law. sir mark rowley says that his officers are limited by the legal definition of extremism, and that he supports a review into the definition and how it should be policed. he argues the law deals with terrorism and hate crime, but not extremism, and there's no point in arresting people if you can't prosecute them because the law doesn't go far enough. we keep our laws under review... today, suella braverman said the government was prepared to change the law if necessary, but gave no details of when or how it might do so. but the government's adviser on terrorism legislation, jonathan hall kc, says a new law on hateful extremism would be difficult because it could interfere with freedom of speech. this evening, he told newsnight, "uk legislation on terrorism "and hate crime is rightly ideology neutral by design, and no one "to date has been able to find a satisfactory and general definition of extremism that wouldn't be over inclusive". it's understood that levelling up secretary michael gove is already working on a new definition of extremism to counter anti—semitism. according to reports, it could give police the power to cut off funding to religious groups found to have voiced hateful views. the home secretary has previously written to the met urging officers to clamp down on attempts to use flags, songs or swastikas to harass or intimidate jewish people. at the centre of this argument is the fine line between free speech and the right to protest. and with the conflict in the middle east showing no sign of easing, there are concerns tensions here could further escalate. i'm joined now in the studio by akiko hart, interim director of civil rights group liberty, and from tel aviv by colonel richard kemp, a former army officer and terrorism expert who sat on the government's joint intelligence committee. good evening, both of you. do you agree with mark raleigh's assessment that what is happening in the middle east can accelerate the terrorism here? i east can accelerate the terrorism here? ~ ;, east can accelerate the terrorism here? ~' ., , east can accelerate the terrorism here? ~ . , ., , , here? i think we have seen examples ofthat here? i think we have seen examples of that before. _ here? i think we have seen examples of that before, for _ here? i think we have seen examples of that before, for example _ here? i think we have seen examples of that before, for example in - here? i think we have seen examples of that before, for example in the - of that before, for example in the iraq war and the war in afghanistan, as well as the rise of the islamic state, we saw that those events and the activities there which inspired people to carry out terrorist attacks in other parts of the world, including in europe and the uk. it was by inspiration, for example the inspiration of hamas, the extremists inspiration of hamas, the extremists in the uk might turn to terrorist acts, as they did previously. i think we have already seen some examples in europe of terrorism that appears to be inspired by hamas' attacks. it is not a question of inspiration... d0 attacks. it is not a question of inspiration. . ._ inspiration... do you think sir mark rowley needs more powers to - inspiration... do you think sir mark rowley needs more powers to dealj rowley needs more powers to deal with it? it rowley needs more powers to deal with it? . ., , rowley needs more powers to deal with it? . . , , ., , with it? it certainly needs to be reviewed- _ with it? it certainly needs to be reviewed. you _ with it? it certainly needs to be j reviewed. you have spoken just with it? it certainly needs to be - reviewed. you have spoken just now about from the river to the sea and cries ofjihad, those kind of demonstrations, they are deliberately intended to intimidate jews and to inspire people to carry out acts of violence and terror against them. this is part of a movement that has been going on for a number of decades now in the uk and elsewhere in europe. it has been inflamed by the situation. [30 and elsewhere in europe. it has been inflamed by the situation.— inflamed by the situation. do you think there _ inflamed by the situation. do you think there is _ inflamed by the situation. do you think there is a _ inflamed by the situation. do you i think there is a heightened threat? so i think that the legal areas that we are _ so i think that the legal areas that we are talking about at the moment are areas— we are talking about at the moment are areas which require the utmost care and _ are areas which require the utmost care and the utmost sensitivity. and i care and the utmost sensitivity. and i don't _ care and the utmost sensitivity. and idon't think— care and the utmost sensitivity. and i don't think that is quite what we are seeing — i don't think that is quite what we are seeing at the moment in terms of the response from senior politicians and the _ the response from senior politicians and the home secretary. for example, the home _ and the home secretary. for example, the home secretary talking today about _ the home secretary talking today about the pro—palestine marches as hate marches was inflammatory and dangerous _ hate marches was inflammatory and dangerous rhetoric and actually a real failure of leadership in many ways— real failure of leadership in many ways at— real failure of leadership in many ways at a — real failure of leadership in many ways at a time when what is needed is thought— ways at a time when what is needed is thought and care and scrutiny. is is thought and care and scrutiny. [s the is thought and care and scrutiny. the chant is thought and care and scrutiny. is the chant from the river to the sea ever acceptable? brute the chant from the river to the sea ever acceptable?— the chant from the river to the sea ever acceptable? we heard earlier on from our ever acceptable? we heard earlier on from your other _ ever acceptable? we heard earlier on from your other guests _ ever acceptable? we heard earlier on from your other guests that - ever acceptable? we heard earlier on from your other guests that the - from your other guests that the chant _ from your other guests that the chant is — from your other guests that the chant is contested. it is interpreted differently. a chant is contested. it is interpreted differently. a lot of thin . s interpreted differently. a lot of things you _ interpreted differently. a lot of things you were _ interpreted differently. a lot of things you were talking - interpreted differently. a lot of things you were talking about, | interpreted differently. a lot of. things you were talking about, the home secretary being inflammatory, i am asking from the river to the sea, is that inflammatory particularly at this time? ~ ,., . ., ., this time? the met police wrote a letter to the _ this time? the met police wrote a letter to the jewish _ this time? the met police wrote a letter to the jewish community i this time? the met police wrote a letter to the jewish community in | letter to the jewish community in october. — letter to the jewish community in october, the commissioner writing that the _ october, the commissioner writing that the chant in itself was not a criminal— that the chant in itself was not a criminal offence. it can be in certain— criminal offence. it can be in certain circumstances, but the child in itself— certain circumstances, but the child in itself isn't. do certain circumstances, but the child in itself isn't-—
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