Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20201209

Now on bbc news hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. Right now, the conflicting currents in the course of the coronavirus pandemic are striking. 0n the one hand, the uk government is already rolling out a Mass Vaccination Programme, on the other, the second surge of the virus in the United States is generating unprecedented levels of infection. Can the us quickly turn the tide on what looks like a Public Health disaster . Well, my guest is dr anthony fauci, the us governments top expert and adviser on infectious diseases. Why is americas corona crisis intensifying . Dr anthony fauci, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for having me. Good to be with you. Dr fauci, i must begin with the very latest news we have on the vaccine coming from the food and Drug Administration in washington dc. The fda is confirming, just in the last few hours, that the Pfizer Biontech vaccine has met the prescribed success criteria. Does that mean, in your view, that the United States is going to start administering this vaccine in a Mass Vaccination Programme in just a few days time . Well, it is very likely. The first step in what we call issuing an emergency use authorisation is the declaration by the food and Drug Administration that this particular candidate has met the success criteria, as youve just mentioned. Recently, they just did make that announcement, so it is highly likely that, within at least a couple of days, an emergency use authorisation will be issued. When it is, very soon thereafter, were ready to begin administering the vaccine to the higher priority groups. There was that prediction, which looks like its going to come true, that we will be able to start administering vaccines by the third or fourth week of december, so i believe that that is going to be right on time. Youre a country of, what, 330 Million People, you are a vast geographical area, and you clearly have a public which has varying opinions on whether it wants to take the vaccine. This is going to be a massive undertaking, isnt it . It certainly is and, as you mentioned, there is a diverse opinion about whether or not individuals throughout the country want to take the vaccine, so its going to be a task for us to be transparent and articulate in letting the public know that, in fact, we are dealing with a safe and highly efficacious vaccine because a highly efficacious vaccine does not mean much if we dont have the overwhelming majority of the people taking the vaccine, and thats going to be our task to convince them to do that. With that in mind, dr fauci, was it unwise of you, just a few days ago, to express concern that the uk authorities had rushed through their authorisation of the same Pfizer Biontech vaccine because the notion of rushing something through might be applied by some people in the United States to what is happening right now with the fda . No, thats not the case. I believe i clarified pretty well my statements which, as i mentioned, were unfortunate that was taken in that context. I think that the uk, clearly we all recognise, has a very good system and they did it correctly, we have a very good system and we are doing it correctly. I dont think there should be any concern at all that its being inordinately rushed. Its being done in a very sound way, both by the uk and by the United States. In your expert view, what percentage, proportion, of the Us Population has to be immunised before we can Start Talking about the virus being controlled and slowly, gradually being eliminated by so called herd immunity . Yes. We dont have the precise number, but most of us who are involved in this field feel that it is somewhere around 75 plus or minus a few percent so, if we can get 75 of the United States population vaccinated, we feel that we will have an umbrella of herd immunity in society that the virus would very, very quickly essentially become a nonentity in the sense of not having enough people to infect to maintain its momentum. But dr fauci, you have a grave problem cos im looking at the latest gallup poll i can find on us public opinion, and only 58 of americans say that they want to get the covid i9 vaccine. If you need to get to 70 75 , im just wondering, as a Public Health leader, how youre going to do that . Well, were going to try very hard to convince those people who are somewhat sceptical about getting the vaccine why its so important for themselves, for the health of their families and for the health of the entire nation to get vaccinated. We have to be transparent and articulate in the process. First of all, the speed with which this was done was due to extraordinary advances in Scientific Technology to develop platform vaccines that were able to do things in weeks to months that formerly would have taken years. There was no compromise in safety and there was no compromise in scientific integrity. Secondly, the process of deciding whether or not a vaccine is safe and effective was made by independent bodies our data and safety monitoring board. You have something equivalent to that in the uk. They are an independent group that is beholden not to the administration nor to the pharmaceutical companies. They independently deemed that the vaccine was safe and effective, the data was given the fda and, as were talking about today, the fda examined the data carefully and, in association with their own advisory committee, as you just mentioned at the top of the show, theyve come to the conclusion that that vaccine met the success criteria. So all of these things are transparent and theyre independent. If we can convince the American Public that that is the case, hopefully, they will change their mind and we will have an overwhelming majority of the people wanting to get vaccinated. Dr fauci, you, in that answer, talk about data, you talk about transparency, you talk about scientific independence. Isnt the problem, in the United States, that not only when it comes to this question of the vaccine, but when it comes to other issues, like taking government advice, either at state or federal level, on masks or on other behaviours and other restrictions to social life, the us public does not trust its Public Officials right now . Well, i think one can say there have been mixed messages. If you look at whether the us public trusts the medical officials, like myself, i think almost all the surveys say that there is a good degree of trust of us, and thats the reason why we are out there, like i am speaking to you and people throughout the world, through bbc, as to what the facts are about this and why it is important to do the things to which youre alluding, namely mask wearing, physical distancing and avoiding congregate settings and crowds. Dr fauci, whats gone wrong in the United States in recent weeks and months . You said, just the other day, that we are seeing a surge upon surge of new infection since thanksgiving. What has gone wrong . Well, i think its a conflation of events that have been unfortunate that have put us in a compromised position. First of all, if you look at the baseline number of daily cases that we had before this late fall surge, it was unacceptably high to begin with it was around 40 70,000 cases per day. Then, as we got into the Colder Weather of the fall and soon to be winter weather, individuals began to do things more indoors than outdoors, often without wearing masks, which is a perfect set up for having increase in cases. Then you had the holiday season. We told people not to travel if at all possible for our thanksgiving holiday, which was just last week. Unfortunately, if you look at the films of tv and in the newspapers, you see the crowds at airports and at train stations. That is unfortunate because that almost certainly will lead to a surge which we probably will not see the brunt of which until maybe next week cos it usually takes two to two and a half weeks following a particular event to see a surge. And then, unfortunately, even though we all welcome the christmas and hanukkah season, were going to start seeing those increases just as were getting into the beginning of the christmas season. So, to say the least and to put it mildly, were going to be faced with a very challenging situation throughout the rest of the month of december and well into january. This is something that we can have some control over but, you know, we need to maintain the Public Health measures. Your colleague, the head of the centers for disease control, robert redfield, has said that this is the most difficult time in the Public Health history of the United States of america. He has suggested that the number of People Killed by coronavirus, which currently stands at something under 300,000, could rise to Something Like 450,000 if americans do not heed the kind of advice you have just given. Its a grim question, but what do you fear the death toll could be . I think the prediction that was made by the cdc, by dr redfield, certainly is on the mark if you look at the models. Models are based on assumptions put into the model. If the assumption is that people are not going to abide by the Public Health measures and recommendations, it is entirely conceivable that we will have a death toll, as we get into january and february, that is at the level that was predicted by the cdc. Thats the reason why we have to really double down and realise that we can modify that number. We dont have to accept the inevitability of having a number that is high if we all pull together as a country. Not as individual states, some doing it well and some not, but if everyone pulls together within the United States as a nation, altogether, we can turn that around, definitely. Coordination and pulling together hasnt characterised the american response thus far. Im going to quote you the words of dr ezekiel emanuel, who was co author of a report in thejournal of the American Medical Association which concluded, quote, the United States has done remarkably badly compa red to other countries with this virus. I mean, remarkably badly. Do you agree . Well, in some respects, yes, and i think that is a function of our country and how it is set up. As you well know, and you mentioned itjust a moment ago, its a geographically large, diverse country with differences in geography and climate, in cultural differences throughout the country. We have 50 states. Our country was set up by the founding fathers, based on a federalist system, which means that the states have a considerable degree of independence and doing things the way they want to do. Under certain circumstances, that works really, very well. When youre dealing with a pandemic virus, that knows no borders or boundaries between states, when you do things in a disparate way, it doesnt lead to an optimal response. And unfortunately thats whats happened. Dr fauci, lets notjust talk about the states, lets talk about governance from the very top, lets talk about the president of the United States of america, a man who you know better than i, has, in the course of nine months, mused about where coronavirus has come from, he has mused about how to treat it, including thoughts about using disinfectant. Hes very often talked about masks in a way that has perhaps confused the American Public and directed some of his critique at you personally, his chief advisor on the virus, have made, quote, a lot of mistakes. Do you think leadership from the very top has been an important problem in the us response . Well, you know, there is very little that i can do about that. 0bviously when you have leadership thats consistent in a message, that does makes a difference, but we have to work with what we have and what we have is people like myself and my colleagues out there trying to get the correct information to the American Public. But to be honest, what we see is a Trump Administration that has not listened to you repeatedly. One of the mr trumps advisors, peter navarro, said that you had been wrong at every single turn. That suggests to me that there is a deep dysfunction at the heart of the american governments response. Well, i mean, i cant comment on the kind of things that were said, for example, by peter navarro. I willjust push that aside and you can take it at its own face value. We still have to just focus on our goal of what we need to do, those kind of distractions are unfortunate but we have to deal with them and move on, do the best we can in our messaging to the American Public. And you pointed to the power of the states have in many of these areas in terms of imposing restrictions. When you see, for example, im just going to take one example, the republican state labour commissioner in the state of North Carolina saying just a couple of days ago, quote, there is no need for any workplace rules to keep people safe from covid, because, quote, the virus has not been proven likely to cause death or serious physical harm. When you have got key state officials saying that kind of stuff, do you despair . Well, i dont despair but i certainly am disappointed because what you just said is just completely untrue and not backed by any of the facts, evidence and data that we have. So, you are correct. It is unfortunate when those types of statements come out, because theyre not helpful to our overall effort to try and contain this virus. So, lets look forward a little bit. We know thatjoe biden has won the us president ial election. Clearly theres some sensitivities in the way that the transition is being handled. So, lets start there. Are you now dealing with the biden team . He has said he wants you to carry on being a key adviser on the virus. So, whats happening right now . Well, whats happening is we are starting to see, finally and thankfully, some activity at the level of the transition movement. A few days ago, i met virtually, by zoom, with several of the members of the coronavirus team, thats part of the biden harris team. We had a good conversation. We spoke about, moving forward, what we need to do. I just got a notice that next week, i believe, or at least in the next couple of days, there will be visits with the Transition Team on other aspect of what happens at the nih, well beyond just covid i9 but some of the other things we do. There is movement now, finally. So, there is movement and there is communication, but i just wonder whether you have communicated with president elect biden personally on this big issue of mask wearing. We have talked about it already, but theres been some suggestion joe biden wants to make it, in some way or other, mandatory in a period of 100 days after his inauguration. Are you clearly and specifically backing that idea . Yes, i actually did have a conversation with president elect biden about that. He called me the other day and ran that by me, and what he really wants to do, is he wants to say, we know masks are important, lets all pull together and for at least 100 days, lets everybody wear a mask consistently and prove, and show, that it will make a difference, and i totally agree with that. And that gets back to the point i made a moment ago. That if we all pull together as a nation, notjust doing things differently, we would be much better off. So when president elect biden was saying something very similar to that, lets have everybody, for at least 100 days, wear a mask and show that it does make a difference. I totally agree with that approach. And to be clear about this you want americans to be required by law, im assuming, to wear a mask in all of their appearances in public. Is that what youre saying . At least for 100 days. You know, in the United States, as im sure is similar in the uk, we would prefer not to have mandates that are punishable by some sort of fine or what have you, but we would prefer to use our power of persuasion to get people to realise the importance of doing something and to do it on their own will. If they dont do it, then you might have to resort to something that is a mandate. It is interesting to me that, today, before the senate, Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs committee, they are calling as a lead witness dr jane 0rient, who is the executive director of the american association. Forgive me. The executive director of the association of american physicians, and she is a well known vaccine sceptic. Do you think that vaccine sceptics should be given platforms like that . I think it is ill advised to give people who have, i think, and based on no good scientific data, have real scepticism about vaccines. I dont think it is a good idea to give those people a public platform. Two quick ones before we end, dr fauci, because were close to out of time. One is about the United States and its responsibilities to the wider world. I understand that the us has now reserved enough vaccine to vaccinate its own population five times over and yet it is not a member of the International Programme called covax, which is trying to deliver vaccines to the poorer countries in the world to ensure that not just the rich countries, but the poorer countries too, in the end, are fully immunised against covid 19. Do you believe, right now, america is stepping up to its wider responsibilities . Well, there are two parts to the question you asked. I must tell you, im pretty well informed on this and i do not believe its a correct statement to say that the United States has contracted for enough vaccine to vaccinate its population five times over. That is not correct. 0k. What is the multiple . Do you know . There is no multiple. In fact, if you look at all the companies moderna, pfizer, johnson, az, novavax and sanofi, the total is approximately a little bit more than 600 million doses, which, since its a prime boost that you need two doses, thats about enough for approximately a little bit more than 300 Million People and, as you know, the United States has a population of about 330 million, so we really have enough for us. Thats the first part, not five times over. 0k. The second thing is that, yes, there is in my mind, ive always felt this way, not only about covid 19, but about other diseases such as treatment for hiv, as a Health Official and as a physician and a scientist, i do believe that we have a moral responsibility as a rich nation to contribute to the to the interventions, whatever they may be drugs for hiv or vaccines for covid, as part of a global community, to participate in that. That is my feeling, that has always has always been my feeling. I want to end it, if i may, dr fauci, with a personal question. Youve had to put up with an awful lot over the last nine months, youve heard crowds chanting, fire fauci, at various political rallies, you have had one of trumps former advisers call for your execution and for your head to be placed in a pike staff on the grounds of the white house, and maybe even more seriously, you and your wife have had to live with a federal security detail inside your own home because of security threats on you. Has there been any time over the last nine months when you have really, honestly, felt close to some sort of emotional edge . To be quite honest with you, no. I focus on the problem at hand and my responsibility to be part of the solution to that problem, and to do whatever i can to protect the health and the safety of American People but, indirectly, for the entire world, because often what we do here does impact the rest of the world. That other stuff is unfortunate but i have developed the capability of not allowing that to distract me, so in answer to your question, i never really have even come close to feeling like i want to quit or get out of this, or that i was at the edge of some sort of crisis. Not at all. I focus on what myjob is, its Crystal Clear in my mind and the other stuff, in my mind, isjust a lot of noise. Dr fauci, i thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Hello there. Low pressure will continue to bring more unsettled weather to our shores for the rest of this week and very slowly, those temperatures will be creeping up as we reach the end of the week and into the weekend. Now for wednesday, well have some showers across eastern areas. Some sunshine will develop, though, behind it is this ridge of High Pressure that builds in and then there will be rain pushing to Western Areas later on all courtesy of this new frontal system. So well start off rather grey, misty, murky conditions with some showery bursts of rain through this morning. They should eventually clear away, its an improving picture with some sunshine developing though showers holding on across North Eastern scotland. Later in the day for northern ireland, western fringes of england, wales and practically into the south west we will see thicker cloud moving in here with outbreaks of rain. Temperatures slowly climbing but again its going to be another chilly day for most, temperatures range from to 5 7 degrees quite typically. As we head through wednesday night, we will start to see that cloud thickening up across the east as well. It looks like most of the heaviest rain will start to push across wales, the south west of england, to the channel islands. Elsewhere, we will hold onto quite a bit of cloud, some light and patchy rain under clearing skies across the north east it will be quite chilly, otherwise, less cold than its been on other nights. On thursday, we are in between weather systems although we have this weather front affecting the northern half of the uk. Weve got a slack airflow once again, so winds will be light, rather grey skies for many with some patchy, light rain or drizzle, a little bit heavier across scotland. We could see a touch of wintriness over the high grounds. The air is still quite cool with those highs ranging from 5 8 degrees. But slowly coming up across the south west, 9 10 there for cardiff and for plymouth. As we head on into friday, a more substantial frontal system spreads its way eastwards across the country. This one will bring a bit of a substantial change to the weather, some heavier rain at times will make its way towards the eastern side of the country, winds stronger for a time, and then skies will brighten up across Western Areas, perhaps one or two showers here. So, its out west where well start to see temperatures lift by the end of friday, 10 11 here. A little bit less cold further east, too. Still on the chilly side with temperatures in single figures. Into the weekend, we hold onto a lot of cloud, some rain in northern and Western Areas. By sunday, well see another area of low pressure, which will bring windier weather, some milder air, and also outbreaks of rain. This is bbc news. Im Sally Bundock with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. Crunch time for Boris Johnson the british pm heads to brussels in a final attempt to unlock trade talks could compromise be off the menu . Joe biden promises a hundred million vaccinations against covid in his first 100 days as us president. Im absolutely convinced that in the first 100 days we can change the course of the disease and change life in america for the better. A Champions League match in paris is abandoned, with teams walking off the pitch following an alleged racist slur. Scientists call on tourists to help map australias vulnerable Great Barrier reef,