That is it from me. Now it is time for hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. Imran khan won power in pakistan two years ago with a promise to root out corruption and take on the countrys vested interests. So hows it going . Well, rising food prices and the covid pandemic have left many pakistanis feeling worse off, while the Anti Corruption drive has become a political battleground. My guest today, ishaq dar, was pakistans finance minister, a key lieutenant of former Prime Minister nawaz sharif. Now both of those men are trying to rally opposition to imran khan. But how much credibility do they have . Ishaq dar, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for inviting me. Let us begin with your personal status, your legal status. You are a wanted man in pakistan. Are you here in london to escape the judicial process . Not really, i think you must be aware of the pakistan history. Whenever in pakistan over a period of 73 years the corruption rhetoric has been used in the last few dictatorships and the current one isnt different. Because this regime is known to be under a covert coup orjudicial martial law. I can prove that there is nothing against me. And i have all the evidence. I hope that you know that the prime allegation against me, my name is not in the Panama Papers, my name is not in the april20. Let me stop because some people will not be following this in great detail. So you are saying your name is not in the Panama Papers. Nonetheless, we learned an awful lot from those Panama Papers published in 2016, about monies being stashed away in foreign bank accounts. And involves some very top level pakistanis. And there was reason to believe that notjust Nawaz Sharifs family was involved but your family too. No, there isnt mention of my family. Im not saying there was a specific mention of your family but the National Accountability bureau decided after the publication of the Panama Papers to look very closely at yours and your familys interests, assets and accounts. Most welcome. And they found that there were grave problems with your accounts. No, not at all. Because you see, im sure that you would be privy that it was a Supreme Court direction that set up a joint investigation team. Which is extrajudicial activity which was co decided. And there were two military intelligence members who were virtually governing the other six members of the git. You see there is a background. Im actually interested in whats known in pakistan as the National Accountability bureau, which is the main agency of Anti Corruption. And they looked very carefully at you and your familys interest as you well know. In september 2017 they concluded that you and your family owned assets beyond your known sources of income. They said quite specifically, the accused, that is you, has acquired assets and pecuniary interest resources in his own name and the name of dependants totalling roughly us 6 million. More than 830 million pakistani rupees. Is it your contention that the National Accountability bureau has no integrity . It has lost its integrity a long time back. It is an institution which is used against political opponents. But you didnt say that, with respect sir, when you were a very senior serving government minister. Idid. I held a press conference. I explained, by the way, this number as per my tax return. I never misused. You see a prime allegation against me that was in the report, on the basis of which the Supreme Court directed and file a reference, was that i did not file, 20 years, tax return in pakistan for 1981 to 2001. A uk qualified chartered accountant never missed reporting his tax matters in the uk when he was here until 1976. And then in the north america two years and then in pakistan since 17 missing any tax return. This is such a blatant allegation. Is it . Well, in that case, lets be very open and transparent with each other. Ive interviewed many government ministers and officials around the world over the years and they always say, oh, im not responsible for any corruption at all and i believe in transparency. I do. You do. So how Many Properties do you and your family own . Its all declared in my tax returns. Just give me the answer because i dont know. How Many Properties do you and your family own . I have my Main Residence in pakistan which has been taken over by this regime. I havent got too Many Properties. How Many Properties do you and your family have . My net worth is. How Many Properties do you and your family own . 0ne. 0ne . You and your family own one property . Yes. So, all of these stories in the pakistani press, about multiple properties owned by yourfamily inside pakistan, property interests overseas including in dubai. And were sitting in london, do you not own nothing in london . Not just you, your family . No, not at all. 0wn nothing . And dubai . Dubai . My sons have just one villa. Which is owned by them. Theyre in business for the last 17 years. So when i asked you how Many Properties you and your family own, you said one, that wasnt strictly true . No, it is strictly true because they are adult, married and for 17 years, they are in business. So they are independent of me. You know very well that when the nab looked at your assets they were looking at you and your family. I have no issue. My family, everything is accounted for. Thats exactly true. If all of this is so clear cut, you only owned one property in the entire world, your tax records that have been kept and given to the authorities over the last 20 years. Yup. If everything is so crystal clear, why do you not go to pakistan and make this case in a court of law . Well, the court of law you know, my lawyers were there, i am here for medical treatments. Youve been here for what, the best part of three years . On this medical issue. Yeah, almost. Are you still really suffering . Yes, iam. And you couldnt possibly get back to pakistan . Well, lets see whats happening in pakistan. Where are the human rights . Whats happening in there, dozens of people have been killed, virtually. Those are human rights abuses. Im sorry. Youre saying those who have been investigated by the nab, the National Accountability bureau, have been killed . In the nab custody many people have died, yes. Its open secret. You google, you would have all the detail. I can leave detail with you if you want. This institution has been politically used against opponents. As i said, i never missed a return. The premise of the entire thing, and whatever my net worth is already, if it is documented in my tax returns and my tax return is not missing. So it is totally accounted for so what is the issue . The issue is, is something different. Because mr sharif is fighting for the civil supremacy and i have always been fighting for financial. You introduced the name mr sharif. I think we need to talk about mr sharif as well as yourself because nawaz sharif is also in london, also on medical grounds. Manhandled by the nab. In its custody. Manhandled you say, the truth is nawaz sharif is a convicted criminal. I hope you know that both cases in which he has been convicted, in bothjudgements it is been written that the prosecution has not been able to prove any corruption, any kickback, any loss to the executive orders and so on. Im sorry, sir, but it is quite clear that he is a convicted criminal. And again, the Accountability Court which works alongside the National Accountability bureau found against nawaz sharif. I believe he was given a 10 year sentence and that was reduced ultimately to seven years. He was then allowed to come to london on medical grounds. The same medical grounds that brought you to london too. Here the two of you, sit. And now you and he, you of course used to be his finance minister in the pakistan government. You and he put yourselves forward as leading voices in the opposition in pakistan. Demanding early elections and an end to imran khans government. I ask you what credibility do you think you have with the pakistani people . What credibility does imran khan have . The world has witnessed that it was a stolen election, it was a rigged election. Its not we who are saying, we have experienced, all pre poll 2018 surveys indicate that we would win. But the observers, the Human Rights Commission in pakistan, the dirtiest election everyone knows the election has been stolen from us. With respect, ijust look back at the eu monitors report on that election. They reported some grave concerns about abuses in specific places. Not involving just one party, but several different parties. Sure. But the final and ultimate conclusion was that they believe the result was credible. That imran khans election victory in 2018 was credible. That was the conclusion of the report. But you havent read all the reports. The human rights. You can cherry pick the most negative. Im telling you that the eu monitor is a highly respected, independent monitors and they look to everything that is happening pakistan and they concluded that imran khans victory was credible. No. Free and Fair Election, which is the global one. Do we have any question on their integrity . Look at the report. I dont believe theres ever been an election in pakistan without some abuses. Where every single thing was conducted with freedom and integrity. That doesnt work in pakistan. The truth is imran khan has a democratic mandate. Hes been in powerfor two years and you are now saying to the pakistani people he must be removed from office. Mr sackur, this election has been stolen. It was a rigged election, there was a pre poll rigging. Elects from our party were posted to his party, using the nab. During the day, the results system was put off of hours. Polling experts were expelled. 35 seats were rigged and stolen. Otherwise he would have never been in government. Well, your party chooses to say that. Im simply looking back to the chief of the Eu Monitoring Team who said overall the election result is credible. Well, you havent read the whole report. The whole report of eu chief. What did it say before this last sentence . Of course, his conclusion is the most important thing, i think you would agree. Well. Maybe you wouldnt. Lets move on. Lets talk about what your tactics are now. You and nawaz sharif are sending your video links back into pakistan, sometimes to thousands of people, demanding an early end to the imran khan government. This isjust a month ago nawaz sharif said to thousands of people in punjab, he said that the integrity of the army chief had disappeared. He said that the general was responsible for levering him out of office and rigging 2018, as youve said, this is what nawaz sharif said, directly to the general, the chief of the army, he said you packed up our government and you put the nation at the altar of your own wishes. You rejected the peoples choice in elections and installed an inefficient, incapable group, leading to economic catastrophe. What an extraordinary thing to say of your countrys chief of army. Its a reality. The buck stops at the top. And the deep state is known, what deep state does in pakistan. Is it a surprise to you . It is known to the world. Hillary clinton just the other day gave an interview. And she said what is deep state quoting pakistan as an example. So please, we must be fair to analyse things. The election was stolen, it started off from dawn leaks the supremacy of democracy for the supremacy of parliament, and i have been struggling for the fiscal and discipline transparency. Is it wrong . Uk has been upholding democracy and the democratic value. People would think that you would be supporting us. Lets be clear. You are saying the pakistani military, the army in particular, are subverting all democratic processes in your country . This is the global report. Its not weak. No, i want to be clear what youre saying. Because the pakistani people are listening to this interview and you are condemning the military of your own country as subverting your democracy. It is not the military. We have to talk of all the individuals. Its not all the entire institution. Lets create a difference its the wish list, the plan of certain people who enforce in pakistan martial law. So you are saying the army is led by the general who in your and Nawaz Sharifs opinion is entirely subverting democracy, is that what youre saying . I want to be clear lets rea rticulate. What we are saying is that if the elections were rigged it is not established beyond doubt. If the elections were rigged and somebody. Its not we it is the interior minister of pakistan giving a statement that if mr sharif had not got a problem with the deep state and the institutions he would have been a fourth time Prime Minister. Why would he say . Let me be clear. Youre now alleging that this is entirely unacceptable when your erstwhile boss and very close ally nawaz sharif was working hand in glove with pakistans military dictator for many years. And suddenly hes decided that the military and the way that they interfere and politics in pakistan is entirely unacceptable. What kind of hypocrisy is that . I disbelieve this analysis. I disagree with you. What of what ive just said is wrong . Maybe evolution process. Evolution process . Oh, you mean because he was in power now is out of power so hes really angry with the army because they wont work with him . Its not the first time. Its the third time he was Prime Minister. Imran khan and minister tells the whole word. Mr sharif would have been fourth time Prime Minister if he had not got in trouble with the establishment. Imran khan may be unpopular in pakistan now but when he heard what nawaz sharif said last month at that rally when he directly targeted the chief of army, imran khan said how dare nawaz sharif point to the general and blame him for what is happening in pakistan when for years mr nawaz sharif polished the boots of a former military dictator . When imran khan said that i dare say he actually had a great deal of sympathy for many pakistanis who know hypocrisy when they see it. I think they probably havent seen these 21 clips how he has been maligning the military. The military army chief, the Intelligence Services of pakistan. And not too long before, just last year when he was in the united states, he gave a statement that it is the isi the Intelligent Service which actually was responsible for 0sama bin laden and killing etc, etc. When he was out of power, when he was in opposition, he had given 21 different statements at different times. He was known as taliban khan. Are we talking or wish to discuss his performance . Are we here to talk whether it is a pure democracy . 0ther opposition elements and you have created this pakistan democratic movement. You want to deliver early elections and see imran booted out of power. But many people, even in your own movement, are now backing away from this targeting of the pakistani military. It has been said it was regrettable that nawaz sharif had named the military chief by name. Even mr sharifs own daughter maryam had to stress at great length that she was not anti military. It sounds that nawaz sharif has overstepped the mark. There seems to be confusion. Mr nawaz sharif as Prime Minister or otherwise is not anti military. Please, lets be very clear. He blamed certain individuals. As i said, the buck, you know, it stops at the top. The dawn leaks, there is a huge history about that, im sure you would be privy to dawn leaks. We brought pakistan out from grey and it was white. If mr sharif talks of certain interventions which are against the constitution of pakistan, is it something wrong . Lets talk about politics and your message to your own people. We know that pakistani people are suffering right now. Food Price Inflation is soaring. Covid 19 is seeing a second surge in your country, creating real economic difficulties. Sure. Theres going to be barely any growth in the Pakistan Economy this year. In the midst of all of that, you are creating a new level of political instability demanding that imran call early elections, calling him illegitimate. Banging on about the vote rigging, claiming that the army is really in power. Do you think that your approach is really helping the interest of the pakistani people . I think you have to review to the umpire, mr sackur. 2014, we won the election 2013. Massive majorities two thirds, almost. 2014, with khan to agitate, consequences rigged only his claim. Nobody spoke. Crosstalk youve gone back now six years. Im putting myself in the shoes of a pakistani today who sees rising food prices, political instability geopolitical instability and you wonder whether the opposition sitting in london really have the interest of ordinary pakistani people at heart . Yes, we have the pakistani people at heart. Thats why we are moving. This country had witnessed double revenue collection, five years at lowest inflation. Lowest interest rates. Best performing stock market in south asia. Most stable currency. The highest gdp growth at 5. 8 . Its all music. Youre western, you know the institutions had all the praise and what was the final report . What did it say . Pwc said pakistan is going to join g20 by 2030. We were striving to bring it even earlier. And we were very clearly hoping that since we had ended the bloodshed, a0 extreme terrorism in pakistan. We had improved Economic Indicators in pakistan. I understand. Im not suggesting that your personal economic record was bad. In some ways it was good. Listen, im just trying to get you to respond to a simple question. Pakistan is where it is today. Hang on, imran khan has a five year mandate. He won the election. He did not. You have a choice, you have a choice, you can wait to fight in the next election if you choose to go home, frankly, but at the moment youre still in london. You can either fight at the ballot box during the next election or you can try to undermine imran khan and his government from the sidelines, from here in london and thereby create new economic and political instability. Is that the choice youve made . Its not a matter of political instability. Its a matter of incompetence. Its a matter of non performance. Of ruining and grounding the economy of pakistan in two years. Before corona mind you, after 1952 Pakistan First time had seen negative gdp growth. After 1952, from 5. 8 first year, this year 0. 4 negative. And there is massive unemployment. We pulled 6 of people out of poverty. He has pushed back 6 of people in the poverty line. He promised to give ten millionjobs. He has made people unemployed, 12 million adding to the unemployment numbers. Pakistan is in big trouble. I just wonder whether your approach is weakening pakistan on the world stage. You recently, hang on, you recently tweeted a message saying that imran khan, and im going to quote your words personified fascism. Now imran khan, imran khan has stood up for pakistans interests in a very tough stand against india and mr modi which you well know. Really . He has also conducted a Foreign Policy which sees deepening economic ties with china. Which is precisely the same policy that you followed. He also is trying to use pakistans influence, it seems, to bring the taliban to the peace table in afghanistan. What is it about these policies that you think personifies fascism . Well, i think perhaps we havent studied or had the time to look into what fascism he is doing. Do you stand by that, do you . Of course, i do, i do. There is a fascist government in pakistan as of now. Youre trying to mobilise tens of thousands of people on the streets in different pakistani cities even when there a covid pandemic. Your message is that we must bring khans government down by the middle of the year and have new elections. You havent succeeded so far, what is your next move . I think you havent seen imran khan doing the same. You see the medium gatherings starting from the 16th of 0ctober. But you havent seen in the same period, in the last six weeks, you havent seen the gathering, large gatherings by imran khan himself. What is your next move . Our ultimate aim and goal is supremacy of democracy in pakistan. The free and Fair Election which will be transparent and totally acceptable. And that would be the rule of law . The rule of law. Will you go home to face the rule of law . Of course i will. Rule of law and transparency. The constitution has to be, all institution has to work within the domain. Which has been prescribed in the constitution of the Islamic Republic of pakistan. I think will be very happy. Right now when i tweeted i have no regret, and is the reality. I can give you. You know, a Prime Minister who calls the director general federal Investigation Agency and gives them names and says go and arrest them. What sort of governor is this . Well, we have to end it there. But i do thank you very much indeed for coming into the hardtalk studio. It is a pleasure, it is a pleasure. Many thanks. Hello there. We are into the start of december and meteorological winter it will feel very wintry for the rest of this week. We will see good change behind, artic air will spread and some showers which will turn increasingly wintry over Northern Hills through the course of today. Windy for much of scotland and Northern Ireland with gales in the far northwest and a lot of showers, western scotland particularly, where some will be heavy with hail and thunder mixed and increasing snow to the hills. The cold front sinking southeast will confine to the southeast, the cloudy without breaks of rain but the skies will brighten up later on in a cold air and temperatures in the single digits. Heading to wednesday night, snow on the hills in the north and we start to see the front being more organised rain in the parts of england and wales in the night, so here because of the wind, cloud and rain, not as cold as it was further north and snow showers and clear spells. Thursday, complex area of low pressure across the country, northern half of the country will see sunshine and showers, these will be snow in the hills down to lower levels at times. Across southern england and wales, it will be really cloudy, wet and pretty heavy rain at times, gales to the channel and even a little bit of wintriness over the high ground across england and wales. It will feel cold wherever you are and temperatures of three to 7 degrees. Heading into friday, area of low pressure sticks around and we will see two centers it, one could bring some rain and hill snow from accumulating snow across parts of scotland. And we will see this front pushing into central and Eastern England to bring some heavy rain but you can see snow on the hills here in the pennines and wet sleety snow down to lower levels. The best of any dry and bright weather will be across Northern Ireland, wales in the southwest of england but it will be another week cold day wherever you are. 0ur area of low pressure sticks around heading into the weekend. Notice as we move to saturday and a sunday starts to weaken a little bit. Part two of the weekend it looks a little bit quieter. You can see both saturday and sunday will remain cold and further wintry showers on saturday and something a little bit drier and quieter on sunday. This is bbc news. A very warm welcome to bbc news. My names mike embley, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. One of president trumps closest allies, the us attorney general, william barr, says hes found no evidence of widespread voter fraud that would change the outcome of the president ial election. Three of hong kongs most high profile pro democracy activists face up to three years injailfor their involvement in the 2019 protest movement. A woman has been arrested in sweden, suspected of holding her son captive in herflat for up her son captive in herflat for up to 30 years. And chinas lunar probe successfully lands on the moon in a Historic Mission to collect the first rock samples in more than 40 yea rs
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