Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20200220

Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. The designer catwalk and the glossy magazine cover are powerful cultural signifiers. The top models who occupy those spaces are deemed to have a look that attracts and sells. But how diverse is that look . How inclusive . My guest today has challenged a host of stereotypes that come with the label supermodel. Halima aden is a refugee from somalias civil war. Shes muslim and follows a modest dress code. Hers has been an extraordinary journey to International Fame and fortune. Hows it changed her . Theme music plays. Halima aden, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you, stephen. Your life has undergone the most extraordinary transformation in recent years. Do you still feel the strangeness of it all, or are you becoming used to it . Mm, i dont think you could really ever get used to fashion. It is a different world and so different to the world that i come from, so im still adjusting and every day it is something new. It is very important to go back to the beginnings of this story. You came to america with your mother when you were just seven years old. Do you have much of a recollection of what life was like in that refugee camp in northern kenya. So katuma surprisingly was a great childhood. You know, not only was it the largest refuge camp in the world, it was still a beautiful childhood, despite having obstacles like malaria and not knowing where your food is going to come from. It is a refugee camp so definitely not an ideal place to raise a family but thank god i experienced it because the community and the values that it installed in me i still carry with me today. I think a lot of people will be very surprised at those words. Really . you almost make it sound like a very happy childhood but surely it was riddled with insecurity and poverty . Yeah, yeah, yeah, not knowing. It is funny now its ironic because i am in fashion a nd co nsta ntly surrounded with clothes when my childhood, like, we were scrapping to find shoes. Like, one pair a shirt would last us for months. It is just night and day to where i come from but you cant take away the fact that the community made it vibrant. Its 66 even today thats still true 66 women and children so were talking a very nurturing, protective environment and they made up for it in love and support. That sense of community obviously was taken away from you when you and your mum made that amazing journey, first i think, to st louis, missouri, and then a little later you moved to minnesota, but you went to somewhere so completely different, you lost all yourfriends, that community you had. How did you cope . It was hard because i recall the happiness, thejoy. I was a vibrant kid, i had a lot of friends, even in the camp, like i was quite popular and i spoke fluent somali and swahili, and ifelt like a bright kid, and so to leave that world behind and come to missouri and, not only the most Impoverished Community in st louis, very tough, very tough first year thats a lot of adjustment and when you are a child, you are not told what legal status is. I didnt even know that we were refugees or why my family left somalia to be there. I just knew that that was my reality. What is so striking about your story is that, by the time you get to teenage, you are a pretty strong willed kid. First of all you make a big decision i think quite early in your schooling in the states, to where a headscarf, to cover your hair. Talk me through that why did you do that . So my mum, right i did not grow up with my dad in my life but she was the epitome of strength, beauty, everything that i wanted to be and i wanted to mirror her, even as a young girl. You know, like, ithink about it as simple as that. When your kid puts on lipstick at six because they see mum is wearing a lipstick to work and so for me i wanted to resemble her and that was part of my identity. I grew up seeing lots of women wearing the hijab, and it was just a natural fit for me. Because we will talk a lot about your still and your commitment to keeping a strong sense of where you are from. Which includes, still of course today, covering your hair, dressing, as many would say, modestly. That does not seem to fit obviously and naturally with your decision. By the time we get to your first year, freshman year in college, your decision to enter the miss minnesota. I know what on earth possessed you . It is a great platform and you know i. Platform for what though, what was your aspiration . For a scholarship. 10,000, even if you do not win the competition but you make it to the semifinals, you can get walk away with 10,000, 15,000 worth of scholarship. Im just imagining what your mother might have made of it . My mum was like, wait, what throughout your young life, there are themes. One of the themes is the degree to which you can navigate what you want to do in life and stay true to your community, your traditions. Your roots. Your mum, yourfamily. So did your mum, at any point, when she maybe thinking of swimsuits and the traditional vision of a beauty contest did she say, halima, you should not do that . Many times and even with modelling, that was another hurdle, because she doesnt come from the culture so for her, she had a hard time when i said, ok, i want to enter modelling, she thought of it as, 0k, but you could have been a teacher, you could have been a lawyer, you could have been a doctor, you could have been all these incredible things, your path could have been so much better in her eyes. You almost have to throw it back at her. You did a greatjob as a parent because youve instilled in me the confidence to pursue my passion and i am still not forget my roots, where i come from. I am a unicef ambassador. I do so much with this platform and its changing how young women see themselves. I did not grow up with representation. Did you very deliberately then, when you went to the beauty pageant, did you deliberately think to you yourself, i am going to go and compete but with the scarf on, with the hijab, and i am going to be different . No, no, i have never really for me it was never really that. It was mostly. I think it is amazing if you can walk into whatever it is and be yourself and that is exactly what i was. I wear the hijab, ive been wearing it for a very long time it is part of who i am. And so when it was time to compete in the pageant, i did not want to strip myself of my identity only to fit in. It was important that i remained true to myself and i am just so grateful that the organisation allowed me to still participate, walk away with such an incredible experience and i still got to remain myself. And the point about entering that contest was that you got spotted. You got spotted by one of the great fashionistas. Stephen, when i tell you my life went from zero to 100 Miles Per Hour right after the pageant. It completely changed my life overnight. I was about to say i can imagine but actually i cant imagine. Because there you were, in a small town in minnesota, and within weeks you were on the new york catwalk. And my first trip to new york. Ive never even travelled for vacation. So its all these things happening. Rihannas team reached out. That was the First Campaign ive ever shot was with her, for fenty beauty. All these incredible things, working for yeezy. Night and day to saint cloud where it is more of a jean town, a college town, very laid back, very relaxed. But the difficulty there is that you are entering a huge industry, with vast amounts of money and it is something of a machine and it churns through beautiful young women and men who are part of the sales product. Did you feel at any point you were losing control . This is why i wish i mum could see. You should be so proud because, even though i come from a small town, fashion is exciting, it is everything but i still went into that meeting with my agency willing to walk away if it meant conforming, if it meant changing my values, changing who i was. And i made it clear and they accepted me forjust who i was. Four hours. This is fascinating. A four hour meeting. Did anybody ever say to you, halima, you have got something, youre incredible but you can do so much more, for example, if you are prepared to model without the headscarf . No, that was never even a question. Four hour meeting to talk about wardrobe how is this going to work . Because i am the first hijab wearing model. It has never happened in the industry and so with that it is not as simple as just put her on the runway. What happens backstage . I need to have a private dressing space to change in. Because we know that for most models the environment is very open. Yeah, yeah. And most models. Are very comfortable, yeah. With exposing quite a lot of flesh and it is a pretty relaxed backstage. Yeah. I am guessing that when you emphasise modesty as being important to you, your approach is somewhat different. Yeah, i will give you an example. I always travelling with a female companion, whether that be my manager, publicist, my assistant. Since the beginning. It is so amazing so the people who were the pageant organisers, they ended up managing me. So it has been a smooth relationship from day one. Its two women that have travelled the world with me, and i have never gone on a trip, shoot, you name it, ive never done it without them by my side. They are the ones who change me back stage, they are the ones who are constantly with me and that was intentional because it is a lonely world, you are by yourself travelling by yourself i cannot even imagine how some of these girls are doing it but it is also is a protection for me because i have somebody who is with me, a female companion at all times. I read somewhere that in one of your first photo shoots you were taken aback when a photographer, who wasjust doing what photographers do, said to you, as you were doing yourfirst shoot, he said, hey, give me sexy. If you know my personality, i was like, i do not think i have a single sexy bone in my body. It is going to look very awkward. Again, i am thinking of yourfamily back home in st cloud, minnesota. My mum would have been like, what and your aunt came out with what i think is the most wonderful withering comment, at some point. She said, you mean in america Walking Around in heals is actually considered a job . Yeah. Cause shes quite a conservative lady. Yeah, because they want the traditional route. And i want to take the road less travelled. I think, as an individual, be an individual and it is ok to map out your life according to you. I get what you have said to me about insisting on control and doing things your way but lead us being realistic, you are entering an industry which, in some ways, is highly sexualised where women and young men can be objectified and you are trying to navigate that with values that do not match. Are you sure you have been able to do it . I have, i have because i have not moved. The first meeting, four hours, steve. All these incredible things, i didnt walk into that meeting saying give me fashion. No, i want to do fashion but it has to be on my own terms and my own way. And i was willing to walk away and i think that is part of the reason why i have gotten the success i have and still remain true to myself. I said i am not moving to new york, i am not moving to milan, im not moving to a fashion capital, i am going to stay home, im going to stay in minnesota and even today i am still in minnesota. Do you want in any way to be seen as the muslim supermodel . No, i do not even want to even be seen as a supermodel. I want to be seen as a girl who is not afraid to be the first, who is confident, who does not forget her roots, but i really did not care about those type of labels if im being honest. Do they annoy you . No, it is flattering and its really kind. It also opens up a discussion and i am wondering whether you have experienced it yourself, where im thinking on social media you have a massive social Media Presence do you ever get muslims who look at the world you have entered and who criticise you or abuse you or say, you know what, you as a sister you should not be there . You will have those people and i think sometimes, i think life is so short and it sounds kind of cliched butjust focus on what brings you joy and go after those Little Things and for me it has now become this. This is my life now and i am happy, and i am not hurting anybody, in fact im using my platform and trying to shine light on the beauty, like wearing modesty, all these things my work with unicef, where i came from, the refugee crisis all these things that has nothing to do with fashion and clothes and the runway but. I feel like i am someone that i wouldnt mind if my little sister, for example, followed me on instagram because i can say i am proud of the content that i have been putting out. There is a sense in which it is becoming more inclusive, in terms of the public faces, that is the models faces, people like yourself. Do you, in your experience find it becoming more inclusive and diverse in terms of the real power brokers, the people who run the industry. Behind the scenes. Honestly, can we be doing more . Absolutely. Every single day. I think there is so much that we can still improve on, but you also kind of step back and say, we are at a good place now in fashion. I am so proud that im joining the industry today because i am seeing models like maye musk, who are 72 years old, killing it on the runway and the magazine covers, it shows that beauty doesnt go away after a certain age, case for men you guys are are lucky like salt and pepper is attractive as you age its like you age like fine wine but for women, as you probably know, that isnt the same so i am glad we have women like maye and all these incredible older women who are the face of fashion. Who are models winnie harlow, Ashley Graham with body positivity, so many faces out there that are marking the conversation. Behind the scenes, im not so sure. Thats what im really interested in, the power brokers, the people making the decisions, who are running the magazines, organising the photo shoots, running the agencies, these people. Do you see the same level of diversity there . I do, i really do. I think of michelle lee, who is an asian woman, who is the editor in chief of a allure magazine. Edward enningful who is head of british vogue. All of these incredible people who are also people at the forefront of making that change, creating the conversation but also behind the scenes, so i am grateful that we have those people. What about social media . You have a huge following on instagram. You clearly have a look that many people, young people, around the world would like to emulate but there is a real concern that young people, in this seeking out of perfection, trying to change themselves to match the models that they see on instagram, they are actually getting themselves into a very difficult place mentally. I think we have the responsibility to inform the public that these magazine covers that you are seeing, it took us 1a hours to shoot. A lot goes into the behind the scenes. Its peddling a fantasy, in a way. But i didnt know this before a joined the industry, and like, oh, this is amazing, this is so beautiful but i never put into it never crossed my mind the hours, the production. You have so many people running around doing their job, working hard, 14 hour days, sometimes, and it is not as simple as, boom, we got the shot, everyone can go home. Im just wondering, youre a 22 year old young woman and im just wondering what you would say to the many other young people who feel that they dont look good enough, and im just thinking of the words i read from a leading uk cosmetic doctor, who said recently, there is a hugely prevalent trend with young girls in particular asking for bigger lips and contoured cheeks and all sorts of other things in a bid to emulate what they see through filters on instagram and other sites like that. Thats funny that you, the whole. Its funny that you brought that up because when i was younger i never uses to smile with my full lips, i used to be like. Because i got made fun of for having fuller lips, so its funny how years later, people are running there are so many challenges trying to achieve fuller lips and i was like, what happened . Because when i was younger that was not the standard of beauty. Its now becoming a trend. You almost have two look at these things and call it out for what it is, it is man made. The standard of beauty should be yours to define for yourself and you should never compare yourself to anybody. Let me talk about modesty, because its a word ive used throughout this interview. You have become very specific about certain items of clothing that you are committed to. I am thinking of what has been become known as the burkini. You were invited to be part of the famous Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition. I never thought i would see the day id bet your mother didnt either. But there you were as part of the swimsuit edition but you were modelling a burkini. Again, some would say that even by being part of that swimsuit tradition, you are part of something that is damaging to women, because again it is a form of male gaze, objectification. Ok, i am going to have to disagree with that, only because it is empowerment. We were talking earlier about behind the scenes. Mj day, a woman who is sparking the conversation its so much beyond than just girls on a beach taking photos. It is led by a woman, for women, and the models, i can tell you they are women who are entrepreneurs. Tyra banks just got back the year that i shot and she was one of the cover girls and she is a woman, an example chrissy teigen, Ashley Graham this magazine sparked a career for them. But theyre wearing different swimsuits from yours. Im just wondering if you see frankly a Market Opportunity here to reach out to women who want to look good, but want also that element as weve discussed of modesty and i know you have started working with retailers of particular sort of hair covers, turbans and scarves is that something you think women, for beyond the cultural tradition that goes with islam and parts of the world where you come from it could reach a much wider audience . 100 , only because modesty and ive said this since day one modesty is not for one culture, it is not for one group of women. Modesty is the oldest style its a fashion staple, it has been around since the beginning of time and it will be around for another hundred years. Its an option, just another option for people to participate in. Im not saying it needs to be a hijab and a turban and it need to look like me for it to be considered modesty. In fact, like beauty, i think you define it for yourself. And your message to those, for example in france, the municipalities and the politicians who railed against burkinis on the beach and said it contravenes french values, french culture, french secularism. And i think that is so sad. If a woman wearing a swimsuit threatens french values that much because of an article of clothing, what does that say about the values, to begin with . And i think it is also unfair that it is women dealing with these things, women being arrested from public pools, beaches for wearing a burkini, another form of swimsuit. I have such a hard time. I want to end, as a promised i would, by talking a little bit about your return. You have become a unicef goodwill ambassador and you were invited back to the camp you came from, in northern kenya. What did it feel like . It was a whirlwind of emotions. I went through all the stages with that trip, because i went back at 21, i think i was 21, right . It was my first time coming home and i was seven years old the last time it was there, running around and all these amazing memories but like a different lens to come back as an adult and to see, wow, it is horrific. It has grown so much, it has almost doubled in size since my family left and in fact there are people still in the camp when they got back and that broke my heart because, how is it possible that in this day and age, there are still refugee camps, but then it was so beautiful because unhcr and unicef, like, i was so proud because the work has been done. Your mum once said to you, why dont you become a doctor because then you can work with agencies like unicef and help the people. Wink wink, see, mum . it all comes back, it all comes full circle. You are now an internationally famous model. Really, genuinely, do you think in your life you can make a difference to the people who live in katuma camp . I think so, and it is coming from a selfish place when i say i wish i had somebody was who has walked in my shoes, who could come back to the camp, look me in my face and say this is what hope is, and its ok to dream and have a life and you deserve that, outside of the camp, outside of these four walls, you deserve to dream big and prosper and i hope that one day we get to a place where organisations like unicef are not needed because every child has exactly what they deserve. And itjust breaks my heart when i think of some of these numbers. Yeah, it gets me so emotional but i see the hope and i think more successful, stories like my own, they are out there, because refugees are resilient people. They are strong minded people, they are people who have so much to give, so much love to give. When i went back, the kids were singing and dancing and happy, earlier you asked me how is it possible to still have a happy childhood despite it being a refugee camp . And a realised these people, yes, they dont have access to many of the things that we probably take for granted every single day but they have something so beautiful in their spirit that no one can take away from them no government, nothing. And that is a gift. That is a gift. Halima aden, its a beautiful thought to end on. Thank you so much for being on hardtalk. Thank you. Hello there. We have a number of severe flood warnings still in force across parts of the country and particularly in england and we have more rain in the forecast, which is going to exacerbate this issue. The met office has yellow warnings for rain in parts of wales, north west england and south west scotland. These areas seeing quite a lot of rain by the time we end thursday. This is the pressure chart. You can see this weather front responsible for bringing the rain to the north and west of the country. A slow moving feature but as we head through the course of thursday, it will start to move southeastwards quite quickly. Skies will be brightening up across scotland and Northern Ireland during the morning. This band of rain will be pushing across england and wales and some of it will be quite heavy. We could see a short lived, very heavy spell of rain as it moves its way southeastwards, accompanied by hale, very squally winds and some thunder and lighting as well. Temperatures will be on the mild side but behind it as it moves through, the skies will brighten up, but temperatures will drop fairly dramatically. Some sun shining behind this further north in the afternoon with lots of showers. These will be falling as snow on the mountains of scotland and maybe even down to the lower levels. And if you add on the strong and gusty winds, could see some blizzard conditions on the mountain tops. That rain clears the south east on thursday evening and during thursday night its going to be a breezy one. Windy in the north with showers or longer spells of rain but the snow levels will rise as temperatures rise here. Further south and east, could be quite chilly for a time to start friday morning. This is the picture then for friday. Another system moving in, lots of isobars on the charts. But an even windy day and it will be quite wet across the north. It is looking like a north south divide, tending to stay drier in the south with some sunshine and being very windy. North wales, Northern England and scotland and Northern Ireland will see outbreaks of rain, particularly across the Western Hills and a lot of rain at that. A windy day, widespread gales could cause issues to the east of the there and stronger cost north west scotland. That which is only mild side with double figure those across the board. For friday night, stays wet across the northern half of the country and tends to be drier in the south and remains windy. Into saturday, stays u nsettled u nfortu nately. We got further very windy weather on saturday and some wintry showers in the north. This feature on sunday to bring parts of england and wales for more prolonged periods of rain. An unsettled weekend to come. Saturday, sunshine and showers. Wintry in the north and very strong in the Northern Areas and some areas getting prolonged rain on sunday. Im Sharanjit Leyl in singapore. The headlines more passengers leave the diamond princess cruise ship, but theres criticism of how japanese authorities have handled it with fears the release could spread the virus. A police hunt is under way in germany for gunmen who shot dead eight people. Well be bringing you the latest. Im Lewis Vaughan jones in london. Also in the programme ready for his close up multi billionaire Michael Bloomberg is to make his big tv debut in the race for the us presidency. And harry and meghan announce theyll be stepping back from their royal duties at the end of march