After Terrorist Attacks the uk is preoccupied with questions about how best to counter the jihadist threat. For politicians the focus is on policing, intelligence and intelligence powers. My guess today has a different is that if. Her son was radicalised in birmingham, went to fight with the Islamic State in syria and was killed at the age of i9. Syria and was killed at the age of 19. She now offers support to other families facing the dangers of radicalisation at home. How best to slam the door on the jihadis question mark nicola, welcome to hardtalk i wonder what kind of impact the news of the last few weeks has upon you. Weve seen this spate of horrifying Terrorist Attacks in the united kingdom. The focus has been on what they a jihadist inside the uk. This is very personalfor you. They a jihadist inside the uk. This is very personal for you. I wonder what the impact is. Its been very difficult, especially because you have the manchester and the recently london in close proximity. It really brings it home, how much of a problem areas and there are days when i think, why am i doing this . Is Anybody Listening . But lately it kind of really brings it home that we need to carry on, there is a huge problem that we really need to tackle. Do you feel the resonance, the direct connection, do your own experience and what you lived through with your son . Because there is this phrase that was used in a Tv Documentary which happens to a light upon one of the attackers in the most upon one of the attackers in the m ost rece nt upon one of the attackers in the most recent London Attack and the film which was made which included him was called thejihadi next door, which in a sense your son was. Yes he was a normal boy and nobody would have thought twice and thought anything. Like i said it was like a bolt Out Of The Blue. He was one of the least. Person you would least expect it from. So lets go back to 2015, the spring of 2015. You say it was a bold from the blue when the 19 year old left home and simply didnt come back. I think many People Living lives as they do with their own families will find that ha rd to their own families will find that hard to understand, that he could flee or escape to syria to fight and you have not an inkling that it was in his head . I completely understand that a lot of people have kind of question me and said, ill use sure there wasnt anything you could pick 7 there wasnt anything you could pick you there wasnt anything you could pick up . You have to remember, this is over a up . You have to remember, this is overa 1. 5 year up . You have to remember, this is over a 1. 5 year period. There were changes within him and i saw that. You mean, now that you look back, he believed the process was over a year and a half . Yes, and now when i look back, in hindsight, and especially what i know today about radicalisation, i can pick up those times and clues. But even that is very difficult to decipher what is actually a teenager going through some kind of Teenage Anchored and the radicalisation process. Naively we kind of thought, itsjust some kind of says he is going through and he will come through it. What especially about six months before he left that was quite a decisive moment because actually he actually had gone completely back to his normal self. He wasjoining in on family celebrations, the activities we we re family celebrations, the activities we were doing, he was a much more happy fun loving boy like before. Thats why it was really like a bolt Out Of The Blue when he went on the twin in either of may. What a game that was the Turning Point in him. 29th of that was the Turning Point in him. 29th of may. He decided to actually leave and go to syria at that point. So we call it the Preparation Phase of actually going and what he did was actually turn as and what he did was actually turn as a way, our eyes away from possibly thinking that he may be going there. Hejust adopted a thinking that he may be going there. He just adopted a passive, cooperative stance to innocence disguise what was going on in his head. All of this seems to me that it matters so much because everyone from intelligence operatives to academics and sociologist are trying to understand what goes on to turn a p pa re ntly to understand what goes on to turn apparently normal, mostly young men into killers. You know, with this sort of what everyone calls jihadist, Fundamentalist Ideology and frankly hate in their hearts. I knew any closer to understanding it today . Certainly from what ive learnt about the process, i can look back on where it went wrong and what was going on with my son and i certainly can see that there were points of possible intervention that i could have turned it around that i have the right tools and knowledge within me, but i didnt. Tell me. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Now when you look back, where do you think you missed opportunities . There were opportunities where he wa nted there were opportunities where he wanted to make a difference. He wa nted wanted to make a difference. He wanted to make a difference. He wanted to do something within the community and make good. Thats something i always encouraged with my children. There was one where he wa nted my children. There was one where he wanted to help the muslims within oui wanted to help the muslims within our community. In birmingham . Absolutely. He made an appointment and they didnt turn up. He had made effort to wake up early, which was unusualfor him, effort to wake up early, which was unusual for him, and effort to wake up early, which was unusualfor him, and they didnt turn up and that really disappointed him and he felt sort of demoralised about it. I think then the recruiters came in and they gave him Something Else to make a difference and that was in syria. So i could have actually at that point, if i had known at the time how important it was, i knew it was something he wa nted it was, i knew it was something he wanted to do, but i didnt know how significant it was, i could have gone with him and said, right, we will do this together, lets look foran will do this together, lets look for an alternative. But i missed the opportunity, unfortunately. This talk about islam in all of this. You are committed muslim, i think you converted yourself when you were 19. Converted yourself when you were 19. Thats converted yourself when you were 19. Thats correct. You were brought up in wales. He married an algerian man and together you had children, including rasheed, and you brought them up as muslims. It rasheed as a teenager, special in the last year and a half, did he have fierce theological arguments with you . Do you think islam was an important part of what was happening inside his head, to turn him into this extremist . I dont think it was islam that was the Turning Point or anything like that. Like you said, i brought up my children as muslims, but because i am a convert, i used to talk about my family and about the balance of having to be integrated as well. So i dont think it was anything to do with islam, i think it was actuallyjust it was anything to do with islam, i think it was actually just the fact that somebody had come at a very vulnerable stage in his life and kind of utilised that. Particularly again because at the same time i was going through some difficulties obviously with the trojan horse scandal. People watching werent all about that, but yuri School Governor in birmingham, where there was the accusation that extreme fundamentalist ideologues from the Muslim Community were trying to leader in like minded teachers and governors into schools to sort of innocence brainwash the peoples, and you will a governor at one of the schools . Yes, i was a governor at that school at the time it had been for 12 years and obviously with all of the pressure and scrutiny that was going on at the time i was under a lot of sort of stress or whatever with back and forth in lots of meetings. My son could see that and could see that i have given my timing over those years and then what happened, i think this was one of the catalysts, the grievances, the recruiter came in and said, look what theyre doing to your mother and she has done all this work. We ask you a blunt question. You have talked about rasheed being brainwashed and sense groomed. The idea that rasheed was the victim, and yet in the Sense Rasheed joined in murderous organisation, committed to the killing of all those not sharing that particular brand of extreme beliefs. He was responsible for his own actions, wasnt it . Yes, i dont dispute that he made that choice and that was incredibly difficult for me to comprehend, that he could hurt us so much. But i think itjust. He was completely under the influence of whoever had recruited him and under this ideology. When they are like that its like being in an abusive relationship. You dont sit in front of you. When people state the obvious you dont see it. It takes time to sort of unprogrammed them. Soi time to sort of unprogrammed them. So i think that was the difficulty with it and i dont dispute that he made that choice and he was ultimately responsible for that, but also like i said ifeel ultimately responsible for that, but also like i said i feel he was very much sort of under the influence of these people. Do you feel ashamed of him . I dont feel ashamed of him. I know i did my best until he was 18 andi know i did my best until he was 18 and i did absolutely everything. He was an incredibly good boy until that point and somebodyjust ruined him, absolutely ruined him in that year and him, absolutely ruined him in that yearand a him, absolutely ruined him in that year and a half, him, absolutely ruined him in that yearand a half, and him, absolutely ruined him in that year and a half, and thats whats difficult for me. But for 18 years he was absolutely brilliant, very intelligent boy, and it was just very difficult for me to actually sort of. Sort of have the two and kind of. The same person stopped late and want to move forward because it seems to me there are two imported experiences youve had that could perhaps inform others. One is about how he was radicalised in the uk and you didnt see it. The other is how you dealt with him when he got to syria. There was a two month gap when he couldnt or wouldnt communicate with you, at the new a lot ca n communicate with you, at the new a lot can indication when he was with so called Islamic State inside syria. When you opened up communication when he was. Did you try to persuade him to come home . M course. All i ever wanted was for him to come back. But i knew as soon as he told me, after there was 2. 5 months of him disappearing and i didnt hearfrom months of him disappearing and i didnt hear from him, months of him disappearing and i didnt hearfrom him, i knew there was a very slim chance i would be able to get him out alive, even if i could change his mind. It was in credibly difficult to get him out. Yes, it was really hard. What was his frame of mind like . I know you had a loving relationship. Yeah. When he spoke to you on the telephone or on whatsapp, what was he like . Was he still like your son or somebody you had lost . That was the incredible thing, he still was. Because a prepared myself when he started communicating with me and throughout that time, especially within being under isis, i thought the ideology would be more entrenched in him and he would get more desensitised towards his family, but it didnt happen and thats what surprised even people who. Some thats what surprised even people who. Some researchers thats what surprised even people who. Some researchers i know. They we re who. Some researchers i know. They were completely shocked about that, but i still managed to keep that bond and that was absolutely paramount to kind of kit that on between him and me. Paramount to keep the bond. Which must have made the loss, his death, all the more difficult. Did you believe you would see him again, once he was there and with is . No, i knew i was never going to see him again, to the point where i talked about his death to him. Throughout those months we talked about his death and how that was going to get communicated to me, because i knew from other experiences of other mothers who have gone through this that they dont get a call and its quite often just put on the social media and thats how they find out. I actually said to my son, please dont do that to me. Please make sure somebody has the courtesy to phone me and tell me you are dead and he promised me. That is one thing he actually promised me. This is difficult stuff, but when we read about the young men who kill themselves or were killed as part of themselves or were killed as part of the London Attack or the manchester suicide bombing, you know, you have to get your head around this young minds, where they are in a sense welcoming death. Yeah. Do you think rasheed was welcoming death . Yes, he was and we spoke about that. When i talked about how i knew i wasnt going to get him out alive and i knew he would possibly face his death, he was. He was ready for that. He knew that was possibly what was going to happen. So he certainly had that frame of mind, definitely. But i saw a change in him a week or two weeks before he got killed. He actually shifted. There was something in him that was clinging towards me. Clinging, as in softer and more vulnerable . He wanted my voice constantly to be the last voice constantly to be the last voice he heard whenever he rang at home he spoke to myself and my husband and his sisters, but he a lwa ys husband and his sisters, but he always asked me to come back on the phone because he wanted a voice. If it was going to be the last call, he wa nted it was going to be the last call, he wanted my voice to be the last one he heard. So he was certainly clingy and thats because he was sent fighting for about seven weeks and he had seen things and i think he saw a lot of things that he wasnt prepared for and thats when the shift happened within him and i felt at that point actually there was hope, that i may have been able to change his mind, but unfortunately he got killed couple of weeks later. What was the last thing he said to you . The last thing he said to me was, i love you. It was always the one thing i said every time he rang, that he heard me say i love you. That was always what i made sure he heard at the end of the medication. Ididnt heard at the end of the medication. Ididnt want heard at the end of the medication. I didnt want him to feel i was judging him and i was angry with him, although i was. I have the container. I wanted to make sure he knew that i still loved him and he was still my son. If you could speak to rasheed today, knowing what you know now about what he did and knowing about the ambition Islamic State has two terror and murder on britain and other societies they regard as the enemy, what would you say to rasheed today . I dont know what i would say today . I dont know what i would say to him to be honest with you, i dont know if i would have words, i know what he would say to me. He was a very humble boy and even when he was kind of very. Sort of if we would have some arguments or anything he was never someone of saying mum, im sorry. I know if he could come back today he probably would have said im sorry, i made a mistake. Lets talk about the very public debate that is so dominant now about what to do with this Terrorist Threat in western societies, obviously particularly important and painful discussion in the uk right now. Youve worked with a gentleman called Daniel Kohler in germany, who is an expert on deradicalisation, and you set up your own families for life group in the united kingdom. Do you believe your experience gives you something important you can offer to this debate . Absolutely i do, im not just a trained counsellor by Trade A Nyway just a trained counsellor by trade anyway but ive also gone through this, id actually travelled across europe and gone all over the place to get those answers, not for myself, and i certainly know i have experienced those tools and the skills and the knowledge to pass on to otherfamilies skills and the knowledge to pass on to other families and thats what ive been doing over these last months, passing that on. Certainly a lot of families when theyve come to me, theyve often actually reported to the Anti Terrorist hotline, which im glad of, but they then also have come to me and theyve actually said to me when ive spoken to them and guided them through stuff to help them understand whats going on for them understand whats going on for the love one, theyve actually said youre. The love one, theyve actually said youre. They said ijust feel validated, im not going crazy, and they felt almost reassured, so i know thats what families want. They felt almost reassured, so i know thats what families wantm seems to me theres a big trust issue here between many people in the Muslim Community and the authorities, whether it be the police, intelligence services, whatever. Do you see yourself as a bridge between the two or do you see yourself as an alternative that if muslims perhaps in families like yours where theyre worried about a particular trial within the family or whatever, you could be an alternative place where they could express their fears and concerns if they dont trust and will not go straight to the authorities. They dont trust and will not go straight to the authoritieslj they dont trust and will not go straight to the authorities. I think distrust not just straight to the authorities. I think Distrust Notjust on the side of the community but on the side of the authority as well, quite often it is on both sides, the authorities wonder. Can they actually. Are they the right people to be talking amongst their community. It is trust on both sides and that needs to be bridged. That is missing . That needs to be happening, we need to work more closely together but the one thing i do say is i fear i can bridge that gap because already through obviously what ive gone through, and being very open about what ive gone through, i think that authenticity is what the community can see but then also the authorities because i work very closely with them and i never hid anything from them when i worked with them when they were going through the investigation. Does it help you all would it help you to have somebody specific to blame for what happened to rasheed . We know young men like him use the internet and perhaps find a lot of the ideology and indoctrination through websites and through online contact. We also know, and tell me if this is not true of rasheed, that they generally have people within their communities who are charismatic figures to lead them into this ideology. But i suppose my question to you is whether you can pinpoint who was responsible for taking rasheed into this direction . Throughout the investigation weve never been able to find out, neither ourselves or the police, have been able to find out who recruited rasheed. I know certainly it was someone rasheed. I know certainly it was someone within the community, probably a friend, thats from my own instinct and from what ive been able to pick up. Like i said, weve never had concrete answers to actually who recruited him. Never had concrete answers to actually who recruited himm never had concrete answers to actually who recruited him. If you could find that person, would you try to seek them out . could find that person, would you try to seek them out . I would want them absolutely to be brought to justice, i really would, because when you talk about blame, i always say its obviously in instinct, you a lwa ys say its obviously in instinct, you always wa nt say its obviously in instinct, you always want when we have these atrocities, straightaway we want to blame somebody and point the finger. Is not always helpful because then we dont find solutions, were not really putting our Heads Together and finding those proper solutions. Ultimately i just blame and finding those proper solutions. Ultimately ijust blame isis, whoever recruited him, and that. No matter how many mistakes or things that werent done throughout the investigation or leading up to it when he disappeared, ultimately i just absolutely blame isis. They are the ones. You know, if they hadnt radicalised him. Right, but theres a bigger issue here and its troubling to talk about it but i think we have to. Weve had a lot of Muslim Community leaders in recent days standing up in magister and london saying this is not done in our name, these people are criminals, these people are not proper muslims and we will help to bring these people to book. But, if you look at surveys, one ive season recently from the gate Stone Foundation in january recently from the gate Stone Foundation injanuary of recently from the gate Stone Foundation in january of 2017, recently from the gate Stone Foundation injanuary of 2017, a survey of muslim attitudes found of the three and a half million or so muslims in the uk, a substantial number, they said perhaps up to 100,000 of them, a substantial, small but substantial number expressed sympathy for Suicide Bomb Attacks and the idea of muslim jihad. Now, how are we to make sense of that . For you as a campaigner against these groups like is, how worried are you by statistics like that, or at least polls that point to that kind of evidence . Im very worried. Ive been saying for a while, i dont think even in the Muslim Community people realise what a big problem it is. Ithink Muslim Community people realise what a big problem it is. I think there is this naivete that has been sensationalised in the media and it isnt really. Its going on behind closed doors. I know certainly since ive been public, obviously because people know my story, ive had people know my story, ive had people approach me, and kind of said ifa people approach me, and kind of said if a friend or a neighbour or someone if a friend or a neighbour or someone thats actually gone and they wouldnt have had that conversation had they not know my story. I know its going on possibly more than they are believing. But going back to blame. I think, you know, theres a difference between blame and responsibility. I think the Muslim Community, yes, its about being more responsible and we need to do more, absolutely, but thats everybody, everybody has a responsibility to looking at it, be it the mosque institutions, schools, colleges, we all have a responsibility to start looking at this. A final thought about what you see in Front Ofjihadis coming from birmingham and started calling it jihadi central, its your community. I wonder whether you feel when you talk of Building Bridges and the need to build trust within the community and between the community and the police and the authorities, whether you feel things are going in the right direction today or not . would say i think because weve had the manchester and, in a very short time, we had london straight after, i think its only now really people have been that shocked that its starting to move slowly but its not at the pace i would like it to be. I think we need to be moving things a lot more and not become complacent because every time Something Like this happens we go through this thing of being angry and blaming, and then it all goes very quiet again and we become complacent and when we become complacent were not protecting ourselves, were not secure. Nicola benyahia, thank you very much for being on hardtalk. Thank you. Thanks a lot. Hello there. Its felt a little more like autumn for some this week and although High Pressure will build into next week and well hopefully see more of these skylines, this was sent in late in the day on friday, before that we will have yet more rain, strong and blustery winds with some sunshine, warm sunshine dispersed, so not a great weekend for heading to the mountains or a small boat. After the rain there will also be more showers following on. This is the area of cloud, the area of low pressure that will bring that disturbed weather through the weekend. Not a washout for all but certainly quite a bit of rain to come. The north east of scotland may start quite chilly with a bit of fog around, the south and east brightening up quite quickly but with the South Westerly Wind pushing that rain into the welsh mountains and cumbrian fells, we could see the wettest weather here, 20 to a0 millimetres. Once it clears away, Northern Ireland will have a warmer and brighter afternoon, warmer and brighterfor the Northern Isles and Northern Scotland than yesterday, perhaps 20 here and even with the rain, not especially cold, quite grey with lots of murky low cloud and hill fog. While we come out of that cloud and back into the sunshine in central and eastern areas and we could see temperatures at 2a or 25, so some very warm and muggy airaround. Touch and go for the cricket at edgbaston, england australia, just because youre close to that rain band, hopefully we will get some play and bad light wont spoil the affair. Through the evening that rain will advance further eastwards so eventually we will see patchy rain even in southern and eastern areas and then the wind will push the showers into the north and west of scotland, so again not a cold night but a particularly warm one stuck under that Weather Front in central and Eastern England and here it is on sunday. Although the main rain is clearing on sunday with low pressure sat to the north west, it does means it wont be a particularly settled day, some tightly packed isobars indicating some rather strong winds at times, Gusting Winds with those showers, Northern Ireland, scotland, North Western parts of england and wales could be heavy with hail and thunder. The cloud is meandering south and east so after a bright start some patchy rain before the rain returns in the evening and not as warm as a result across the south and east, fresher air following on behind that Weather Front. Into that fresher air on monday, still a blustery breeze with showers around, especially in the north, not so much in the south but nevertheless not ruling out the risk. Gradually the azores high will be just building northwards, pushing more warmth and sunshine north, keeping these Weather Fronts at bay and keeping them to the north and west. As ever, more detail on the website. Welcome to bbc news, broadcasting to viewers in North America and around the globe. My name is duncan golestani. Our top stories theresa mays forced to form a Minority Government after a bruising night in britains general election. The prime ministers back in Downing Street but to stay there shell have to broker a deal with Northern Irelands democratic unionists in other news President Trump calls the sacked fbi director james comey a liar, and says hes willing to testify under oath. A new government and face the challenge of the Imminent Brexit the british prime minister, theresa may, is trying to construct