Executive will be voted into office in hong kong. Elected not by the people, but by 1000 or so members of the territorys economic and political elite, tied closely to the beijing government. And that is far short of the Universal Suffrage demanded by my guest today. Joshua wong was a teenage student when he became a leader of the so called Umbrella Pro Democracy protests that swept hong kong in 2014. Has beijing managed to neutralise hong kongs youthful rebels . Joshua wong, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. So thank you. 50 hong thank you. So hong kong is about to get a new Chief Executive. He will be selected, he will not be elected, by the general population. And that isa sign by the general population. And that is a sign of the failure of your Pro Democracy Movement, isnt it . dont Pro Democracy Movement, isnt it . |j dont think it is in favour of our movement. Because our movement is just motivated by the undemocratic system, which means, rather than allowing us more social selection, as you mentioned, it would be great for hong kong people to deserve democracy, with one person, one vote. Well, that is what you wanted. And you brought Tens Of Thousands of people onto the street in the late summer, the autumn of 2014, you demanded with both the hong kong authorities and by extension, frankly, with beijing as well. And of course, nothing happened. Regime did not give you a single concession. Three years ago we created hong kong history, with 100,000 people occupying on the street, it resulted in the Umbrella Movement. However, it is a long term battle for us to fight for democracy, against the largest authoritarian regime in the world. So from my Point Of View, it is a long term battle. We can win in the battle, what i believe finally we can win in this war cant win. That he is, someone said as a battle in which you shot yourself the foot. It was on offer at the time back in 2014 was at least the idea that, after a first round of selection which would be handled by the small coterie of elite people, then finally the two or three nominees that came out of that committee would be put before the people. But because you guys in the Pro Democracy Movement rejected that, that is not going to happen. So there is no sense of a popular involvement in this decision at all, and that is your fault. From the definition of the communist party of china, they would say that the china government will choose. Field candidates for you to elect election. But i would say that, if there is a Screening Process to deny 01 there is a Screening Process to deny or reject all of the pro democracy politicians to be the candidates of the elections, it is not a democratic election at all. So what will your view be of the likely winner of this Chief Executive race . Because we dont know yet, it looks as though carrie lam. Well, lets call it selection. Carrie lam, it looks as though she is the likely winner of this process. She is deemed to be close to beijing, she has already had a senior position in the executive of hong kong. Would you regard her as completely illegitimate, given the circumstances . Carrie lam being elected, it would be a nightmare at all. And i would say that he would be the Chief Executive of hong kong after the 26th Of March is not dependent on the hong kong people or hong kong elite. It depends on president xi. So whether the president of China Will Elect carrie lam, at this stage, no one knows. What we can do is just clearly request and uphold what we believe m, request and uphold what we believe in, which means democracy, and continuing to fight in the future. But just to be continuing to fight in the future. Butjust to be clear, you would regard the winner of that Selection Process , regard the winner of that Selection Process, and that hypothetically say it is likely to be carrie lam, you regard her sitting there with no mandate, no legitimacy whatsoever. It is lack of legitimacy from people, because we cant vote in an election. So how come we can say that the executive, which means the leader of hong kong, is representing hong kong citizens . So will you try to get people out on the street ain . To get people out on the street again . Because the issue here is what sort of amount you have, and indeed what sort of achievement is the Pro Democracy Movement can ever hope to garner what sort of momentum. Because we look at the record, and frankie, as i say, you dont appear to have achieved very much. Yes, i would say that the Chief Executive election day will be a date when we come out with Civil Disobedience and confrontation and protest again. But as you have mentioned, according to the track record of experience in the Umbrella Movements, even 0ccupy on the street, it can result with a positive gain. And at this stage, the hong kong people are still far away from democracy. But what i have learnt in Umbrella Movement is we cant only rely on street activism, but also get into the institution. That is why nathan law, one of the student leaders, has run in the election last year had been elected to be the youngest mp in hong kong. You are i think were sentenced by a Hong Kong Court to was at 80 hours of Community Service for your activities during the Protest Movement of 2014 . Yes, for participating in an unauthorised assembly. So you are telling the Civil Disobedience is on the cards for the day of the selection, march 26, the new Chief Executive. Perhaps you might organise street demonstrations, perhaps you might confront the police, i dont know. But how far are you prepared to push this . I mean you are a young man, you are a student, you are 20 years old. You want to go to prison . expect to pay the price for democracy. That is why before Umbrella Movement, in 2014 until now, i expected to one pushing forward the Civil Disobedience. 0ne day, i i may need to go into jail, but the fight for democracy, you need to pay the price for it. You are in london, with nathan law, you save. We have had him on the programme not too long ago. You two other poster boys, if i can put it that way, for the youthful pro democracy so called umbrella Protest Movement. I am just wondering, already faced threats. I have heard that you were threatened when you tried to travel to taiwan, you had a crowd of people who were Shouting Curses at you. Somebody a p pa re Ntly Shouting curses at you. Somebody apparently tried to punch you in the face at one point. Are you scared . Sometimes i am tired, or downhearted, but i know what ive done, and what i commit is valuable. According to a previous experience, being an activist in hong kong is not easy. As you have mentioned, while we have visited taiwan and back to hong kong, The Pro China, maoists and Gangsters Almostjust assault us in the airport, nathan law being the elected legislator has even been sent to the hospital. I have been blacklisted by the men in china government, and even last 0ctober china government, and even last october i visited bangkok and the thai governmentjust locked me and sent me to the detention cell, saying that, sorry, you are a troublemaker and we will not allow you to enter thailand. And after i took the flight back to hong kong, after 12 hours detained, the government officials just say that thailand will blacklistjoshua wong forever. You know why this is happening, dont you . You are seen by beijing as a threat notjust because you talk about democratic values, basic human freedoms, it is because beijing sees your Political Movement as ultimately threatening separatism and independence, and Thatis Separatism and independence, and that is something that is a red line which the beijing government will never accept. In fact, from the Point Of View of beijing, independence would have been a red line for them. And for my Political Party and myself, we do not advocate independence, and what we hope is to fight for general autonomy for hong kong. Yes, you see, this is where i dont understand your position. You say were not talking about independence, we are just took it of determination. What if you are talking about Self Determination and of course all options are on the table. You are leaving it to the iys table. You are leaving it to the joys of the hong kong people as to how they want to be governed in the future. One of those options has to be separation and independence or are you saying that is definitely off the table . I think we can answer this question in two aspects. The first one is the matter that Civil Disobedience orjust the moderates fighting for democracyjust like the former legislature, all of that are also being labelled as Pro Independence. So i would say that if beijing put a label on everyone and labelled them as Pro Independence activists, it is meaningless. According to your question, as well, Self Determination means that we are also part of the Independence Movement of hong kong. I would say that absolutely not at all. Well, hang on. In april 2016 you said i am not explicitly advocating independence for hong kong, art, you went on, we think independents might be one of the options. So come on, which is it . You either are or you are not prepared to countenance independence . I would love to answer this question, and i am not the one who advocate independence, but i would say that hong kong, being a former colony of the British Government, it will be usual for us to get the right to determine the sovereignty and constitution of Hong Kongin Sovereignty and constitution of hong kong Ina Sovereignty And Constitution Of Hong Kong in a Decolonisation Process Of Hong Kong in the last century. Hang on, you know that the basic law is there. The deal between the former colonial power, great britain, and china, or quite clear. The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region was, in terms of sovereignty, an inalienable part of china. The most significant point is The Joint Declaration will have and expiry date, according to the policy, The Joint Declaration was signed in 1984, it will be in fermented since 1997 until 2047. However, what will be the situation of hong kong after 2047 . With the expiry date of The Joint Declaration, no one knows. And what we are afraid is, without referendum or without the authorisation of hong kong people, it will just result authorisation of hong kong people, it willjust result in one country, one system. You see no one knows what will happen after 2047, but i think it is quite clear everyone knows that china and letting hong kong go. I mean, that isjust inconceivable. In fact, kong go. I mean, that isjust inconceivable. Infact, most kong go. I mean, that isjust inconceivable. In fact, most hong kongers themselves, most people who live in the territory, feel that as well. And reuters did an interesting survey last year in which only one in six people in hong kong supported in any way, any sympathy for independence. The clear majority we re independence. The clear majority were against the idea, because hong kongers are realistic people, even if youre not. I would say that, being an activist, and also being one who leads a Political Party and organise the Election Campaign last year, i know the logic behind straight activism and elections are a bit different. Straight activism it is just necessary to get a critical minorities to supportjoint action. Before an election you need action. Before an election you need a critical majority to vote for you. But i would say that, according to the survey, as you mentioned, of course, the majority of hong kong people disagree on hong kong independence. But i will say that, no matter whether people agree or disagree on hong kong independence, what we hope is, after 2047 for hong kong, the political economy or cultural sector has the future arrangement of hong kong, it will be decided by hong kong people, rather than just an order from the beijing government saying it is time to put asidejudicial government saying it is time to put aside Judicial Independence, government saying it is time to put asideJudicial Independence, rule of law, and if you put aside without any pressure from hong kong, all without any reaction from hong kong people, it will just without any reaction from hong kong people, it willjust be a nightmare for us. Do you worry that you are being used as a puppet by countries hostile to china . I am thinking in particular of the united states. Not long ago you went to washington. You we re long ago you went to washington. You were received very warmly by senators, including marco rubio, former republican president ial candidate, who is certainly know not to bea candidate, who is certainly know not to be a great friend of beijing. And he saluted here, and he sponsored another piece of legislation that he wa nted another piece of legislation that he wanted to get through the us congress, which the chinese thought was blatantly anti chinese. Ijust wonder, there is a danger you are going to be seen as a tool in the pocket of the united states. going to be seen as a tool in the pocket of the united states. I dont think i will be used as a tool in the united states. Of course, for the united states. Of course, for The Pro China propaganda they will say that i am one of the cia agents, and that i am controlled or funded by the Us Government. 0r and that i am controlled or funded by the Us Government. Or even claimed that i am trained by the us marines, it is ridiculous. But referring to your question, i would say that what we hope is to get the International Committee to support hong kong Democracy Movement. It is not because only focusing on the moral reason. It is because the Us Government or uk government is the ones who signed off, and The Joint Declaration. So they gain the responsibility to monitor the implementation of one country, two systems. But theyre not, abe, looking at the allies you might want to have in the discussion with how hong kong can determine its democratic rights, the uk government isnt doing much, the us and government is now led by donald trump, who clearly sees his relationship with china in Terms Of Trade and currency but he really doesnt seem to put it in terms of human rights and democratic values. I still appreciate his phone call with the president of taiwan. Things are changing because mr trump says his administration is committed to the one china policy. Thats why theres uncertainty for the Trump Administration and thats why i would have more expectation in legislation rather than the administration. You say, ill have some hope of getting support from legislatures, but youre not getting support. In material terms, since you launch your umbrella protest, and now you have your own new party and now you have your own new party and a handful of representatives in the legislative council, tell me, in material terms, what level of support youre getting from around the world from governments and legislatures. We have to push forward to help the Democracy Movement in hong kong and in the uk we are questing and arranging a hearing in the parliament. In the us, as you mentioned, there is a cross party us, as you mentioned, there is a cross party bill which is called the Hong Kong Human Rights And Democracy Act and what we hope is it will be a Starting Point for the Umbrella Movement generation and what we hope is after the end of the Umbrella Movement, we want a positive result. China is now very important economically and globally, one of the two most powerful economies in the two most powerful economies in the entire world, do you really think you will rally International Support for democracy in hong kong when china is so clearly against it and china is now frankly seen around the world as one of the most vital strategic partners. Supporting democracy and hong kong does not. What i mean if hong kong has a lack of rule of law and Judicial Independence, how can it ensure Economic Freedom and also protect the business interests . What i would like to say, especially for the british audience, if how china is nor the international treaty, ignored a promise in a joint declaration, how can the British Government insured china will rely on its miss on the future trade deal . Are you in anyway a china afobe, a sign of vogue, there are certain statements that have come out of the localised movement in hong kong which smacked of a prejudice Chinese People and china. I would say i am ethnically chinese andi i would say i am ethnically chinese and i am against the China Communist Party regime but not against Chinese People. What about your colleague, nathan law, who said, and i actually put this quote to him some time ago, a lot of people think we dont know china so we hate them but actually its different. We know china and thats why we hate them. its different. We know china and thats why we hate them. I would say thats why we hate them. I would say that we hope to know more about china. Do you hate the chinese . No, i dont hate the chinese and i hope to know more about Chinese Culture and whats happened inside mainland china, unfortunately after the end of Umbrella Movement ive been blacklisted and i cant enter mainland china. I suppose what im getting at is whether youre interested in aligning yourself with some of the more Populist Elements in hong kong who are very angry about certain things they see as problems coming from china. For example, Chinese People coming across the border, spending a lot of money, raising prices in hong kong shops. Some have been referred to as locusts by elements inside hong kong. Theres also concern about jobs, Chinese People with qualifications coming and taking jobs that used to go to hong kong people. Are you prepared to ally yourself with these. You could call them nationalists beaming is in hong kong. I wouldnt recognise myself as one of the local lists and im not one who agrees on hong kong nationalism. Would you not acknowledge that people in hong kong ca re acknowledge that people in hong kong care more about the housing crisis, the difficulty for young qualified hong kong people getting decentjobs with good salaries. These are probably things that engage hong kong people more than your theoretical discussion of Universal Suffrage and changing the way in which the Chief Executive is selected. I think your point is explaining the reason we run in the election, during the Umbrella Movement a lot of residence in hong kong said they support democracy and i have quite a good impression on the Democracy Movement but it is possible for you to have emphasis on more issues like the housing issues, social welfare, liberal rights, more issues like the housing issues, socialwelfare, liberal rights, not only emphasis on political reform. Thats why since last year we found a Political Party and ran in the election and what we have proved to hong kong citizens, we hope to put oui hong kong citizens, we hope to put our thoughts to fight for democracy and urge fora our thoughts to fight for democracy and urge for a political system reform. But also on the other hand we are one who cares about peoples livelihoods, Housing Problems Transport problems, and in hong kong only 20 of High School Students can go to university. Its the lowest rate compared to any big country. Let me ask you more about your personal situation, it strikes me as very interesting, we know your place around the world because you identified with the Umbrella Protests a nd identified with the Umbrella Protests and many were struck by how young you were but you started becoming an activist when you were even younger. 14 years old. 14 years old. You were beginning to think it was worth while it was good to activate with your Student Peers in high school to make a political noise but it has cost you a lot. Now, as you said, you are blacklisted by beijing, its going to affect your future Career Prospects and life. How do you cope with that . Of course it is hard for me to seek Anyjob Inside government or work in the business sector, but i would say if the young generation cant see the future of hong kong, how can i see my future . What do your parents say . My parents strongly support me. They are the ones who are not activists, not a quy ones who are not activists, not a guy in politics every day, but they still give me enough flexibility compared to other parents in hong kong mostly according to the Chinese Culture, where they forced their stu d e nts to culture, where they forced their students to focus on examinations and enter the best university, the professional and get upward mobility into the middle class. Professional and get upward mobility into the middleclass. Theres enormous pressure in hong kong to do well, strive and achieve. You bust all of those stereotypes. It is lucky that my parents are more open minded. Lucky that my parents are more openminded. Let me ask you this, youre a young man and i dont in a nyway wa nt to youre a young man and i dont in anyway want to sound patronising, but with youth comes a certain amount of idealism, and maybe sometimes a certain amount of na ivete. Sometimes a certain amount of naivete. There are people who look at the reality of chinas grip upon hong kong, the massive dominance that china has when it comes to any discussion of hong kongs political future, the economic reliance of hong kong on china. Then they listen to you and think, theres a spirited young man who is going to change his views as he gets older. Theres no way that china is ever going to relinquish its political and economic control and grip on hong kong. Do you recognise that many people feel that way . kong. Do you recognise that many people feel that way . I knew especially through the Umbrella Movement the number of people agree or disagree on the movement, it would come down to the Occupied Zone and have discussions with me and i know more about their ideas. I would say theres always discussion and debate is about whether china relies more on hong kong or hong kong relies more on china, especially with the capital. Even in 1997 when you first experienced sovereignty, chinese rule, i think hong kong was worth almost 15 of chinas gdp, its now down to Something Like 3 . The leverage in the relationship is changing every year and always going in the direction of beijing. year and always going in the direction of beijing. I would say fight for democracy or protecting the rule of law and Judicial Independence, in fact we are facing the largest authoritarian regime or the largest authoritarian regime or the second largest economic power in the second largest economic power in the world. If you asked whether we would achieve the mocha see in the next two or three years, i would say it is hard for us to achieve immediately in the short term, but thats why at the start of the interview i said its a long term battle democracy. Some people said why is the young generation focused on Self Determination, why dont you focus on one country, two systems. The fact is, one country, two systems, after the end of 50 yea rs two systems, after the end of 50 years unchanged policy, in 2047 i am 51 yea rs old years unchanged policy, in 2047 i am 51 years old and i hope that no matter what will be the sovereignty of hong kong at this point, we still ensure human rights, rule of law, Judicial Independence and we wont let hong kong exist as hong kong and not just exist let hong kong exist as hong kong and Notjust Exist in name only. You are Notjust Exist in name only. You are not leaving this battlefield . Notjust exist in name only. You are not leaving this battlefield . Yeah, i will not leave it. Joshua wong, thank you for being on hardtalk. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you very much, appreciate it. Hello there. The relatively settled theme to the weather continues for at least another couple of days. Its going to be relatively mild during the day on tuesday but breezy for many of us, particularly windy across northern parts of scotland where the met office have issued a yellow warning for the strength of the winds, causing some disruption for the Northern Isles of scotland with some heavy showers on the cards as well. Further south across the country, most places looking dry first thing tuesday morning. Pretty mild too. Around the country at 8am, heavy showers for the northern and Western Isles with the odd rumble of thunder combined with those strong winds and some big waves too. But for much of scotland and northern ireland, a bright start for most. Some isolated showers. Cloudy at times for Northern England down to wales and the south west. A bit of mist and hill fog. Perhaps the odd spot of drizzle. For much of england and Central Eastern parts in particular, relatively bright. Some sunny spells breaking through. A cloudier day than we saw during monday. Most places, dry. Strong winds as you can see, gusts up to 70mph developing across the Northern Isles of scotland with some heavy showers too. Less breezy elsewhere, still mild for this time of year. In the sunnier spells were likely to see 15 or 16 degrees. Could be a degree or so higher in one or two spots. As for the first day of the cheltenham festival, a decent looking day. Mild, 13 or 14 degrees with a gentle south westerly breeze. Heading through the latter part of tuesday evening and overnight, a few spots ofjust Light Patchy Rain Moving South across england and wales. Quite cloudy with some mist and hill fog in the west. Further north, clearer skies moving in, particularly for Northern England and scotland and northern ireland. Temperatures a bit fresher here first thing wednesday. Wednesday is looking like a decent day for many of us. High pressure in charge. Variable amounts of cloud. Cloudy towards the south and south west for a time. The best of the sunshine towards North Eastern parts of the country. Some rain in the far north west but elsewhere dry and temperatures still in the mid teens. A pleasant enough day on wednesday. Into thursday, a bit of a change because weve got this next Atlantic Low Pressure System brings this fairly weak weather front. Another breezy day on thursday especially in the north west. Its here we will see a few outbreaks of light patchy rain. Further south and east across much of england and wales, still mild and dry. 14 degrees or so. Slightly fresher towards the north west. That fresher theme continues into friday and saturday and things will start to feel a bit more unsettled into the weekend. Bye for now. Hello, you are watching bbc world news. Im alpa patel. Our top story this hour britain moves significantly closer to leaving the european union, after Parliament Approves a law allowing the government to trigger brexit. But the process is complicated, as scotlands leader drops a political bombshell and demands a second independence referendum. Welcome to the programme. Our other main stories this hour turkey announces sanctions against the netherlands, as the diplomatic row between the two appears to be reaching breaking point. Thousands of flights are cancelled, as americans on the Eastern Seaboard face the worst snowstorms of the season. Frayed tempers and an early red card, as chelsea knock holders
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