Transcripts For BBCNEWS Dateline London 20170528

The conservatives and labour make election promises to tackle terrorism. Theresa may plans a new commission to counter extremism. Jeremy corbyn is pledging 10,000 more police and security staff. Now on bbc news its time for Dateline London presented this week by jane hill. Hello and welcome to Dateline London. Im jane hill. A warm welcome after a difficult week for many. We will of course be discussing the aftermath of the manchester suicide bombing. Well assess president trumps first overseas trip. And we look at the state of the general election camapaign here in the uk, with less than two weeks to go to polling day. To discuss all of this with me today iain martin, a times columnist, the american broadcaster jeffrey kofman. Thomas kielinger of die welt, and nisreen malik, the sudanese writer. A warm welcome to all of you. In manchester, on monday night, a pop concert by an american singer popular with young girls ended in carnage when a 22 year old man born in the city blew himself up, in the foyer of the concert arena. Children as young as eight were killed, and scores of people remain in hospital. The hunt is continuing for the people who supported salman abedi, many people have been arrested here in the uk. And in libya, abedis father and one of his brothers are under arrest. Lets talk about that libyan connection. Nisreen, may i start with you . It is the question thats been asked for days and days, how a young man born in the uk becomes radicalised. Talk to us more about the libyan connection, details of which are becoming a little bit clearer. Well, the most important thing to point out is that its not one thing or the other. It is very tempting for people to try and figure out what is the one element that radicalised him. The libyan angle is one of the most informative. It tells you and exposes a family in flux, a family that has not found a stable footing either in libya or in manchester. So his father was an exile, a political exile, in opposition to gadaffi who, as everyone knows, has maltreated and resulted in hundreds of thousands if not millions of libyans leaving the country during his tenure. The fact they were here in the first place is a reflection of the fact that there was a dictator presiding over the population in libya. Number one. So the angle that concerns an oppressive, dictatorial environment in the arab world and larger parts of the middle east is a very important one in understanding the roots of islamic disaffection orfundamentalism. So they were here in the first place because of libya. And he returned, his father, and they themselves returned to fight with the militias that fought against gadaffi after the arab spring, and they kind of made it back. They were back and forth between manchester and libya. So it shows that this was a family a little bit torn. Abedi himself spent a couple of years there and came back, and there was a stigma around him and his siblings and that whole Libyan Community in manchester, in the sense they were considered cultural half breeds not really libyan and not really british. So that is the context he thrived in, if that makes sense. In terms of his ideological radicalisation. A final point, very interesting that no one has picked out when they were arrested in libya, his father and brother, they were not picked up by any official police force. Libya is a state in complete anarchy. They were picked up by a local militia. So they dont have an official Intelligence System that can coordinate with the british and americans, in order to pick up these people. So thats the firmament within which the entire abedi family grew. That is the context, as much as we can understand it. Its surprising, as you said, that libyas almost a failed state, or it is a failed state. Yes, it is. That there was a Militia Force that could apprehend him off their own bat, or because they have contacts with foreign intelligence, what have you. It is quite astonishing to me that in this country, which falls apart before our eyes every day, that there is some order, police and militia, that can say, on foreign instigation, get hold of these two people. We need them in our investigation about the Manchester Bombing. That is almost an Encouraging Development that you have two more witnesses. And its been said, by the way, you spoke of the disenfranchisement of libyans in england, but did we hear the story of the father helping to radicalise his son . Even though he publicly denied it having happened. But there must have been some Family Connection from the days when he fought colonel gadaffi. He implanted the simple idea in his sons mind. This is a father who took his son during a School Holiday to take part in the Libyan Civil War. I understand that its complex. But a lot of people will see it in really quite simple terms. That this is a family that was given shelter by britain, refugee status, welcomed, his education was obviously paid for by the british taxpayer. A family that then decides to shuttle backwards and forwards between the Libyan Civil War and manchester. A father that then leaves two boys who are clearly a risk and known by the family to be a risk, and leaves them at home alone. And i think peoples gut reaction to it will be to accept that there is complexity, but that something has happened here which will shock a lot of british people, and people will feel that hospitality has been abused. I think its fair to come to that conclusion. I covered the Libyan Civil War, the arab spring in libya, in 2011, and it would be wrong to assume that people who went back to fight with the rebels were extremists. A lot of them were, in fact, liberals from europe and elsewhere who wanted to liberate the country from an oppressive dictator. I dont think that adds up. But i do think that this notion of a failed state is coming back to bite us terribly. The consequence of the arab spring, with all that optimism, has been abject failure, and the country, as you know, there is no central government. You look at this place, it has got a map, its a country on the map, its got an ambassador at the united nations, but beyond that. Where is the responsibility for that, then . Its interesting. Its tempting to blame nato and David Cameron for that campaign. I was in libya during that period. We really believed we were on the cusp of a massacre by gadaffi. I have to say, in the campaign that allowed the rebels to ultimately triumph, it seemed at the time, in fairness, to have been a sensible one. We were going to see another rwanda, if something hadnt happened. I think it was a fair assumption to think that. The problem was that there was no after plan that was effective. Yes, the rebels took hold in a country that really had no infrastructure, that was run by mafias. Regional militias. And heres where we are. The problem is that. Very briefly. The problem is vacuums. There are several problems, but what hes trying to say is that when theres a vacuum of authority whether its in iraq after the war or in libya after gadaffi collapses, or in yemen now after the conflict with the saudis once there is a vacuum of authority, you have the potential to get all these fragments that then align themselves with alqaeda or isis, and that is the soil in which all of it grows. Thats right, and isis has moved in. But in terms of criticising the west, it cant always be the wests fault. Were accused in some circumstances of intervening too much and in others of not intervening at all. I dont think anyone was saying that. We could be discussing this for a long time to come. Thank you. Lets just turn our attentions as well to president trump, because he of course just carried out his first overseas trip this week. Visiting the middle east, the vatican, the nato summit in brussels. And at the time of speaking, he is at the g7 summit in sicily. Now, contrary to expectations, it appears to be a case, broadly, of so far so good. Jeffrey your take. A little smile on your face as i said all of that. I would take issue with that. I think if youre a fox watching, breitbart reading alt righter, you might think that. But i think whats interesting is weve watched in this Reality Tv Episode of trump goes to europe and the middle east, weve watched two trumps. There was the trump who was lavished and banquited in saudi arabia and who seemed very much at home, who managed to endear himself and avoid the issue of human rights, in a country whose values really are absolutely contrary to america. Never touched those issues, not even a nod. Goes off to israel, welcomed with literally a bear hug. Never mentions the settlements. Then he comes to europe, to the closest Friends America has, the g7, and scolds them. And so you see this contradiction. In many ways, hes the friendly guy in those countries and the Ugly American here. So i dont think. Its true there hasnt been a massive blunder. There are lots of great memes of him pushing the president of macedonia, is it . Yes, macedonia. And his own wife, at one stage, i think. Yeah. Er, montenegro, was it macedonia . I think it was montenegro. Montenegro, yes. But, yeah, and great to watch his Wife Slapping him away. Really, its just another instalment in the trump reality show. But hes yet again demonstrated, in telling the israelis that hes back from the middle east, that he has no depth whatsoever. He is who we think he is. But who has depth about the middle east, i ask you . Nobody has any recipe for how to solve it. So he comes and makes those easy statements which have no consequence. Unlike you, i would be prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. We have all critiqued him in your fashion, but he is a work in progress, hopefully. I think he is a work in progress. And he is learning. And he made a good speech after the Manchester Bombing when he referred to these jihadists as losers. That was a very happy felicitous, almost phrase to make. You could say that is part and parcel of his own show. Well, its interesting because lots of people said the word loser, thats not president ial, you cant use the word when youre the us president. I think it illustrates that hes an effective communicator. Im no fan of trump. Im extremely distressed by his existence. Poor man however, i think that the trip went really quite well, actually. Yes. You notice that he. Maybe he didnt have data roaming on his phone, so there were almost no tweets. There were no tweets. Is this the key to it . There were no tweets. It was almost like a work in progress. As though someone around him, presumably very concerned about whats going on back in washington with the fbi and kushner and all the rest of it, was trying to just normalise him and try and manage this trip in a conventional way and it kind of worked. He tried to behave himself, because there was that Elephant In The Room that was kushner and all those problems, so he didnt want to add to his problems by making gaffes. I think were suffering from a huge collective lowering of standards when it comes to donald trump. The fact that he didnt smear himself on a daily basis doesnt mean that the trip went well. Itjust meant that he had enough handlers and was so uncomfortably out of place that he couldnt behave in a disgraceful way. These trips are hugely well coordinated, Hundreds Of Handlers on the saudi side, if you watch the footage. This man was very closely managed. And even then, he made blunders on body language, he strayed off script a couple of times, on a couple of speeches. He cosied up to dictators and scolded democratically elected leaders. And i think there is a really dangerous trend, actually, where everyone expects him to behave completely scandalously and horrifically the whole time, that when there is a day when he is micromanaged so well that he cannot put a foot out of place, people then draw these conclusions and say, oh, i think hes a work in progress. I think hes learned a couple of lessons. And this is a man who keeps telling us hes a good deal maker, but we all know that deals are about relationships and the ability to say, hey, angela, lets do something here. When you see the european leaders and the canadian leader avoiding him, they are holding their noses, grinding their teeth, you can see it. Arent we offended sitting here in london because he is more interested in speaking to the saudis than european people . He is following the american agenda, he wants to create more jobs. He doesnt talk about human rights in saudi arabia, we can critique that, but in the eyes of some, he did and said the right thing. Talking of lowering of standards, we must be grateful for small mercies. If there are some things where we hope he can learn, thats all to the good. Also, that was a really interesting pivot on Foreign Policy towards saudi and the gulf states. A piece of positioning that the gulf states have looked for for the past ten years. They hated the 0bama years and he was essentially siding with them against iran. You can argue whether that is right or wrong, but it is geopolitically a very significant moment. A really serious move. As was the criticism of his nato allies, who are not doing theirjob. Completely justified. Increasing the defence spend. One of the things when you talk about learning on the job, he seemed to pull back a little on his opposition to the climate accord and that is, i suppose, when you talk about lowering the standard, he finally understands that maybe Climate Change is real. We also have short term memory loss. Over the past three months, how many times has trump done something and people say, oh, i think he has caught on now. Now hes president ial. Every time after that, he disappoints. It is early days. With him, it is this immaculate sense of amnesia. Its always early days. What you said earlier is important, lets see what happens when he returns to washington. Hes got some Serious Problems when he returns to washington. 0k, well, an excellent topic for a future week. Thanks very much on that. Lets return to the uk. There was a pause in the general Election Campaign here in the wake of the manchester attack. Now the campaign is resuming, with less than two weeks to polling day. Iain, i must start with you. I hesitate already, because with Opinion Polls, there are always caveats, however, it has been so striking, the change in a very short space of time. Yes, every time this happens, the british say well never trust Opinion Polls again, and then everyone gets massively overexcited. But Opinion Polls are very good at telling you what is happening with broad trends and the trend is really clear. That is that the conservatives went into this campaign with a lead of somewhere around 20 points and were heading for a massive landslide. Labour has run a Better Campaign than anticipated, it has been fleet of foot. Theresa may has run a very bad campaign, including a declaration called the dementia tax, which has worried a lot of core conservative voters. Her manifesto backfired and that lead has narrowed according to the poll in this weeks times by yougov to only five points. It seems that narrowing is being fuelled by a lot of young voters, and this is what the conservatives are relying on. Young voters are flocking to corbyn, on the basis he wants to make University Education free and renationalise the railways and produce a Magic Money Tree and give money away. But Domestic Pointers that people have welcomed. That it does resonate with. What we know from elections is that young voters very often get very excited and dont turn out in the same way. Maybe not even registered. So the tory lead among older voters, where turnout is much higher, remains very strong. But not as strong as it was, because theresa may chose this audacious strategy of declaring war on her own voters pushing into labour territory, showing they could punish wealthier voters, taking on their own base in an attempt to get that majority. She went into it thinking the majority is going to be fantastic. We will find out in two weeks time. You get the sense that almost anybody but Jeremy Corbyn could win this election for the labour party. Precisely. If labour had a leader who was not a supporter or sympathiser with the ira and had such strange views on Foreign Policy, then i think labour would really be in with a shout. Just to remind you, we had almost 4 million ukip voters in 2015. That is a strong card for her. They will come into her camp, which would dampen the hope for labour to come out on top. But i agree with you. My problem as i report on this to my home audience is that there is one Question Mark after another standing behind the brand gb. Brexit is one. This onslaught and terrorist attack in manchester is another. How will the political leader of this country, theresa may, cope with the uncertainty of the future . Will she stand tall in this moment of crisis, that she is the one to trust in the leadership when there is an emergency like this in manchester . Will she be the one, with all the troubles shes recently experienced, to stand tall vis a vis The Europeans . The uncertainty of the British Future in the long term makes it very difficult to predict how this all will pan out. Something very strange has happened in the campaign. She went into the Campaign Branding herself as strong and stable and voters loved that and she was hugely popular, but it was a mile wide and an inch deep. Because of these missteps, that strength has turned into a lot of voters wondering if she is a bit mean and brittle. I think that is actually the most important point, that this shift has been more about the dementia tax etc, but the Public Perception of may and corbyn, in that she has come across as very strong and capable at first, and has conducted a very closely managed campaign. She is never caught off the cuff or doing something spontaneous. Shes not good in those situations. Great at pmqs, great when shes rehearsed, but you cant run a campaign without being asked questions that youre not ready for. And she has come across as brittle and hollow when unrehearsed. There is a complaint that she is not meeting real voters, however you define that. Exactly, and not talking to journalists and not giving spontaneous interviews. I think in the interviews she has given, even closely managed ones in bbc studios, she has come across as brittle, hollow and incompetent, i think. Did not give off this strong and stable vibe. And Jeremy Corbyn, last minute rally over the past couple of weeks, and with the last bbc interviews with the heads of parties, he came across as authentic and comfortable in his own skin. And these things make a huge difference in the last ten days before an election. Despite corbyn being corbyn, he is speaking to the hardship people are enduring. People are looking for someone to ease that hardship, whether it is access to universities for students. The changes the tories made have closed off options for a lot of people and corbyn is resonating. It is just incredible to watch these three leaders, all so flawed in different ways, as people agonise over how to choose. There are also these public swings of mood that happen. We had a swing towards right wing, surprising elections, for brexit and for trump, but there might be a swing back towards the harsher, more isolationist view of the world. I want to be careful not to run too far ahead of myself. When the chips are down, despite the domestic problems she has clearly, the country will soon need strong and stable leadership vis a vis The Europeans and strong and stable leadership to cope with the Terrorism Threat in your midst. Despite her domestic wobblings, and i think come june 8th, the debate we are having will be immaterial to the question that people in the Election Booths will ask themselves. Who is going to be the leader in those troubling times we are heading into . Its a binary choice. The question is, does she comes across as more strong and stable than Jeremy Corbyn . There are only two options, and a lot of voters do not engage fully until the last 48 or 72 hours. It will come down to that choice. At the start of the campaign, it was all about brexit. A few of us sat here a few weeks ago saying, this is a boring Election Campaign. It was all about brexit. Does the death of 22 innocent people change that . Not wishing to politicise that horror, but does that not traditionally play to whoever is in number ten at the time . That is theresa mays narrative, that we need strong leadership, to confront the ills we are dealing with. Im not sure she has demonstrated that raising the terror level, that she has a solution. To be fair, im not sure anybody has a solution. Im not sure her response has made people feel more confident. Difficult tojudge that because it is early. Comejune 8th, she will have tried to make herself appear to be in charge, as it were, and bring the country forward and contain the threat. Whether she succeeds or not, but she will use that argument that she is the one in the leadership position. And, trust me. I will not make predictions around this table. Not again not after Hillary Clinton but it is hard to imagine. It feels to me like were talking about how big her plurality or majority is, not a question of if she is going to win, but by how much . That is also a prediction 0k, what is the impact of that . She went into this expecting very big things in that regard, what if its diminished . A huge amount of unease in the tory tribe and among tory mps and ministers about whats happening. If after all of this, the majority ends up being not much more than she has at the moment, what was the point . What was it all for . It gives her a mandate to move forward in negotiations. It is quite convenient. It does, but a month ago, the conservative party was convinced it was going to have a majority of maybe 150, if it comes back at Something Like 20 or 25 and labour are seen to have won the Election Campaign, there will be the most extraordinary tory punch up. There is concern even in brussels about the Prime Minister not being as strong as she made herself out to be. What kind of leader is she going to be . Is she going to be as strong as brussels is hoping to have . They want a strong and stable leadership to negotiate these issues coming up. They are not interested in seeing her diminished, like she appears to be at the moment. No, but i think everyone has a lot to be nervous about because we have seen things shift very dramatically over the past six days, not even a week. 12 days is a long time in politics. It is a long time these days in particular. With the unfortunate bombings in manchester, with her kind of falling apart, with increasing media scrutiny, 12 days is a long time. 0k, we will all be discussing this in two weeks from now. Thank you so much to all of you. Do join me again next week, if you can same time, same place. Thanks very much for watching, goodbye for now. So far so good as far as today bosma weather is concerned, most places still dry, it is a bit cooler in the north east of the uk, where the wind is coming down from the north west but sunshine for most of us today, but sunshine for most of us today, but we are looking at storms, as well, they are starting to develop flow across well, they are starting to develop now across the english channel. This was the scene in devon at a short while ago and this part of the country will see storms and heavy rain. Thunder and lightning, country will see storms and heavy rain. Thunderand lightning, it country will see storms and heavy rain. Thunder and lightning, it is coming from the channel, across northern parts of france, we have had thunderstorms in the channel islands. This is the cloudy skies that we have in aberdeen, in the north east of the uk. Way from here, winds very much lighter, which will be moving north, these showers, very quickly, mainly focused on the south west. Strong winds as well. Across the north of scotland, we had 27 yesterday around the murray first, 29 the day before, and 17, a significant drop in temperature, but pleasa nt significant drop in temperature, but pleasant if you have the sunshine, in the central belt and northern england. Heading back to south wales and the west country, this is where we will have Thundery Downpours and strong winds, thunder and lightning. And a few showers working to the south east where we will have the highest temperatures. And then it really gets wet overnight. The downpours become more extensive across england and wales, the thunderstorms, as well, all moving north. Lighter rain in Northern Ireland and eventually southern scotland. Very muggy in the south. Behind those downpours, and they continue to drift north through the midlands, very wet for much of the day across northern england. Slowly improving in Northern Ireland. The rain pushes into scotland. It will warm up in the south, very warm and humid, but there could be more thunderstorms triggered later in the day. A cool day under the rain in scotland. The rain eventually clears away overnight and the showers, as well, and then we look to the west to see the weather coming for the week ahead. Some Weather Fronts coming in. With the pressure higher, it will be turning dry and when the sunshine is out it will feel quite pleasant. This is bbc news. The headlines at 12pm Police Release images of the manchester Suicide Bomber and appeal to the public to help piece together his final movements. The conservatives and labour promise to do more to tackle the threat of terrorism, if they win the election. More cancellations and delays for British Airways passengers, following the global Computer System failure yesterday. We have been in the line for about five hours now. We have no idea how much longer well be here and we are getting no communication from the staff. Tributes to two passengers killed on an american train, trying to defend two women from anti muslim abuse. Also The American Rock Musician gregg allman has died. Back home youll always run. The 69 year old became a star in the late 60s as part of the allman brothers band