Poor lots of questions being asked there is to our commitment to. The human rights convention that we've signed up to with regards refugees whenever they're saying 1st a. Possible mass a grave has been found in a city cemetery in Oklahoma in the United States which archaeologists think may be from the 1921 Tulsa Race massacre the massacre began in May 1921 after a black teenager named Dick road and was falsely accused of having assaulted a white woman talked to Scott hemistich is a senior researcher for the Oklahoma archeological survey you might want to take us back nearly 100 years now don't Amistad to these race riots or the race massacre what happened essentially back in 1921 well this is a fairly affluent black community in the city of Tulsa and that wasn't really something that was like by a lot of the white community so when this this incident happened they took advantage of it and basically destroyed they that area town and killed a lot of people how many people it's hard to say we know of something around 35 for sure that the most common estimates we have are about 300 but some people think that maybe a few 1000 that's really up in the air right now I say you know. A mass or a massacre is it fair to describe it better is a mass lynching it's you know it's hard to say because there was fighting on both sides you know that's a that's a term you could use that it's not one that people use much around here so there was at least some resistance to this attack there definitely was there were a number of black World War one rep veterans who were well armed and fought back how long did the the riot so the disturbance the most. Right itself lasted for about a day and there was martial law for several days after that which is when a lot of the victims were buried but we know that it is on records that a lot of the most of these victims I'm presuming were black yes the vast majority were with the casualties on both sides yeah there were we really don't have any good numbers on either side them and what happened as a result of that what was the consequence of this violence there really wasn't much of one it was it was largely covered up for a good 80 you know almost 80 years there was a little bit of research done in the ninety's and it was shut down for political reasons and then restarted when we got involved political reasons is it sensitive. It's not as much now as it was it was a lot more so about 20 years ago did the people of Oklahoma recognize this moment in the history I believe so it's not something that's been publicized very much outside of Oklahoma but people here definitely know about it I think there's a lot of momentum towards getting this rectified Now how did you come across this possible massacre. Was so we I was working closely with a bunch of historians and they had done a lot of interviews over the past some of them 45 years in some cases interviews photographic evidence all sorts of stuff like that and they identified some possibilities for us to go to look at and we did some physical survey ground penetrating radar and such in these areas that they identified for us the graves. I don't have what the process is but you've identified them scientifically but will they tend to be physically be if then. That's one of the things that's being worked out right now you know we've identified some very likely candidates with your physical survey and what we're doing is providing recommendations to goes to a public advisory committee which is made up largely by members of the black community in some cases descendants of survivors and they'll sort of decide what they want us to do next there are still descendants of those survivors and there are yes how the descendants of people who lost their lives as. Yet both and how do they feel generally about that moment in history what do they know magine it's a conversation the would have passed down in the family from generation to generation Yeah that's correct it's there's a lot or a lot of. There's a lot of anger in the community as well as you might imagine but there's a there seems to be a fair amount of support for what we're doing and there for a fair amount of support from the city of tall so which is finally being a little more transparent open and want to solve this story chapter in their history what would we learn from. A much more thorough investigation of these gurus of this very. Well I think in some cases you know we want to be able to get an idea of the number of people that might have been been killed in this massacre this is a start in that direction I think it's also a way for people to you know when you get some scuttle analyses you'll be able to figure out if people were actually murdered in that event or if it's maybe related to something else like that 1900 flu epidemic. Do you have any idea what the local papers were saying of the time about these raids while the a lot of the massacre was actually spurred on by a fairly fairly inflammatory headline by one of the newspapers and there were really wasn't much there wasn't much sympathy for the black population at the time have they recovered his race relations Intel's recovered from the. I think it's it's better than it was but it's like a lot of places in the u.s. Where there's still a fair amount of tension. I wonder whether they generally didn't have a home is not the kind of place you think of when you think of his or multicultural communities when there were kind of resonating impacts. Riot and attack on the particularly affluent black community the would have had consequently if you know well I don't think this kind of well I know about was what if it discourage people from elsewhere migrating north from the South for example from says sling you know. You know it's a possibility I don't write I really can't can't speak to that I will say that a lot of a lot of the black population in Oklahoma came along with Indian tribes and their resettled here in the hundreds so that's where a lot of folks came from in the 1st place so that's another sort of sticking point it is a really fascinating history the and its history I'm sure that's shared from both sides I wonder when we're talking about this particular massacre whether there is a. The same or different perspective coming from the white community now today reflecting on it I think there's a there's a much more of a shared perspective now but we do know we still have a ways to go in this country with race relations and so we still I think we're not really talking about the same sort of equality or equal saying. The term is good thank you very much for joining us about thank you Dr Scott who's a senior researcher for the Oklahoma archaeological follow the story and see if there are any developments over the coming weeks maybe return there now we don't hear a lot from the Central African Republic it's a country that's rich in resources but it's also one of the poorest countries in the world and has been politically unstable since it gained its independence in 1960 the country's undergoing an internationally supervised transition involving a constitutional referendum as well as presidential and parliamentary elections which he due to take place next year as the car deals that's what they call it Central African Republic but they describe his car as a car deals with a rather fragile political situation its former president friends were busy as returned Jack law she has been following events in the car and I asked him if there had been any warm greetings for the former president when he returned there certainly hasn't been that kind of reception I think saying that it's being greeted with astonishment would be an understatement and an interest to understand why there is we're going to have to go back about 20 years or so from shore busies a was the chief of the general staff and the army in the Central African Republic and eurozone and all sorts of despots that fraud this very impoverished nation in the center of Africa since it. Since became an independent country fronts in the sixty's now in 2003 this Francoise as easy seized power from the president in a violent coupe and then suddenly stall sorts of unrest and violence across the country for the next 10 years this disease a character was in power and it was a. Very authoritarian rule he ruled with an iron fist and all sorts of rebellions blossomed around his corrupt territory and the way he would deal with these is basically sending in French troops bombing them crushing the rebellion and then buying off rebel leaders and bringing them into his administration with cushy to use to ensure their support but this never really dealt with the underlying problem which was marginalize Muslims in the north of the country and the Christian elite creeping off the profits of foreign aid and other income streams down in the South Bank and eventually these rebels up in the north all banded together into a coalition that is the Celica in 2013 and they ousted this guy. In a bar every March that year since then he's been living in exile far away from the country and in those years the political situation in car is being abysmal it's been one of the world's worst forgotten crises and his ousting unleashed this civil war between mainly Muslim sell a corrupt was and on the other hand Kristie in militias known as the antibiotic. Who were supported chroma far by posies. For this he received sanctions from the u.n. And a travel ban against us forward what is it over 6 almost 7 years and he's now suddenly appeared back in the country and it's concerning people are very concerned from international observers to politicians to the country to ordinary people in the streets that his return could trigger all sorts of tensions in the run up to major elections next year indeed he's rigid is predicated on those religions Disney he wants to take drugs despite the fact that he's got lots of well as you as you display the. Yeah this is this is the thing you know he's he's accused of all sorts of serious crimes and yet he seems to be playing by the kind of electoral code of the country he's showing the West respect it basically next year it's a crossroads for the country we had this major peace deal between the government and all sorts of rebel groups around the country which fish will certainly calmed things down I mean this is a war that is seen over a quarter of the population up rooted from their homes other into refugee camps or into surrounding country countries thousands killed in some really truly terrible atrocities. And this peace still did bring a welcome return to normality that said there have been some serious flare ups this year in which civilians have been massacred so next year in the run up to this presidential election tensions are already increasing rhetoric is already getting more divisive and certain stakeholders and rebel groups and other powerful figures are just looking to make sure they cling to their power and posies a who as the electoral code says any presidential candidate must be on cause Central African Republic snatched more territory for at least one year before the election this is a guy who's never hidden his intent to take back power by the ballot box and lo and behold Harry is 12 going to before the election he has his support is absolutely his power base you know will be predominately in the West southwestern areas among the Christian population but there's a little people who suffered a neat Israel or I don't talking about Muslims specifically up in the north and northeast who for years in years were marginalized by him this is a concern because those same groups are a heavily armed heavily militarized. They they haven't. Refrained from storming the Capitol before and up pursing him so this very very delicate time there are serious concerns that his return and any divisive rhetoric that he gives kids seriously trigger return to the darkest days of the Civil War several years ago have those groups in the north those Muslim groups in the north have they responded to the news that he's back. Right now things are quite tentative I mean a lot of this news is being couched in reports that he's returned certainly his spokesman has come out and said he's in the country at the same time the government spokesman has come out and cast some doubt over this. We find this hard to believe but posies party is claiming this and I think we can go along with that in the next few days we can expect those easy to come out and address the people of Central African Republic that will be a major moment and that is when we can expect these powerful seriously powerful well armed rebel groups up in the northern areas up in the eastern areas who control large swathes of Central African Republic diamond go about to make their views known and that will be a critical moment to see what happens next how can the country be pull when it has a diamond in gold belt. It's a very good question it is hugely rich in natural resources diamonds and gold and at the same time this is according to the United Nations Development Index the 2nd poorest country in the world after Nisha Now I don't know how they establish that it's any poor the needy but it is at the bottom in terms of life expectancy education infant mortality access to health care. It is the bottom of the bottom. Not to say that the people there are incredibly resilient in the face of this hardship I've experienced that firsthand when I've gone into refugee camps and remote rebel held areas but for sure life is tough. You would expect that having access to gold and diamonds Woods would boost development from tax revenue and from trade but that is all dependent on having a functional system where there isn't corruption and that taxes are being paid in the money's going to the right place. Actually it's these very resources like diamonds and gold that can fuel Rylan rather than fuel development because they're so valuable that the gangs out there the militias out there groups out there determined to get their hands and in the case of car over many many years they've resorted to the worst kind of violence to get their hands on the most serious or is a man is not under the attention of outside influences I know that Russia is back in Africa in a way. A military interest in car is that because of the diamond and gold gold saw other was. Yet a dime is in gold is kind of that's kind of a bonus for the Russians. But I wouldn't say it's the main reason you know the Russians or the Soviets were big in Africa during the Cold War And right now Russia's return to Africa is is the the biggest pressure presence that Moscow has had in the continent since the end of the Cold War. This is coming at a time when America and the trump of ministration is retreating not just from Africa but from the world stage. Europe is divided. The strategy around certain parts of Africa seems seems confused NATO isn't without its problems and for Earth urgent Kremlin under Putin Africa is a great opportunity it's an opportunity for it to rekindle old Soviet ties and to move into vacuums where Western Power is now absent Central African Republic is that the epicenter of this shift. You've had Russian weapons getting flowed in there you've got Russian boots on the ground whether or not they're genuine. Regular Russian soldiers or nurse in areas have been a tourist Wagner group. Certainly Moscow wouldn't comment on that but they're there and this is a place where after decades and decades of French row French Imperial row the local population of 2nd that they've had decades and decades of Western foreign aid hasn't really improve their lot in fact you know it was people like posies a it was creaming off the proceeds from foreign aid. The Russians might not do things in the most legitimate ways by the book but they do get things done quick. And certainly Moscow is capitalizing on the appetite for a new power in town. You've got to remember is well after years and years of civil war. Central Africa is that desperate for a change and with Russia they see Moscow as providing that that that dignity that standing that strength that is long beat ups in the country well you say that and the irony of both. The country itself is trying to. To sort out the issues of governance after some 60 years of independence now issues of governance the lead a lot of the troubles that you talked about the civil walls the conflict the strives the autocratic leaders and so and that's the irony of this is they're trying to have a referendum on the constitution they're trying to bring in new elections that will hopefully increase democracy in the country and trying to get their act together and yet it seems from what you've told us Jack to be honest that that's the least of their worries governance. The problem is in custody much of the violence in so many the problems has been fueled by a lack of accountability there is widespread systemic impunity i.e. If you commit a crime more from the not you know can have to pay a price you're not going to receive justice you know going to go to jail. Posies return really makes a mockery of efforts in recent years to try and instill this accountability in the country right now you've got the u.n. Setting up this Special Criminal Court to try war criminal was you've got trials in The Hague about to get under way and you've got national courts trying some. Putting on lower ranking middle ranking rebel militant chiefs on trial as well so while that is happening you then suddenly have a former president who's accused of war crimes and crimes against humanity of co-ordinating death squads from other from other countries why he was an ex out who has been under sanction from the un since 24 seeing who was actually until recently banned. Banned from entering the country by airline decision that was actually over all just a few days ago and here is in the country hustling to get some more votes which many observers were say completely flies in the face. Of this fight against our community and this fight against the community is so crucial because the cycles of violence simply continue and so these perpetrators approach justice Jack is a journalist who writes for months of As The Washington Post The Guardian The Telegraph so many different people the Sunday Times magazine you got give me as props because you know he does not just speaking from over here he does go in the field as it were an embed himself with guerrilla soldiers and otherwise fighting in these conflict areas but it's fascinating what he's saying about the Central African Republic a lot of information that we just don't hear about we don't know and the wider implications of that as he says is this you know grass for scramble if you like influence if not power in Africa by whether it be Russia on the one hand or China on the other hand in France of course former colonial masters there are so many permutations of these stories we really need to keep across them Domi and I think we should over the next few weeks or months or maybe have some of Jack lost as well after the news in sport will be focusing amongst other things on the conference it's a refugee conference is taking place in Geneva at the moment it hasn't all gone quiet on refugees in fact there was. An incident on the in the channel just yesterday where. British border patrol in French authorities were trying to avert. A situation where people were trying to cross the general risk their lives as always as you hear the case and we will be finding out what can be done about this and if there is any kind of global or international consensus about the meaning of refugees today the each country seems to have its own interpretation its own rules and regulations around that as well so all that to come after the latest 5 Live headlines with Victoria all. And Tom digital b.b.c. Said it's nice to get some of this is b.b.c. Radio 5 Live members of the Royal College of Nursing are preparing to go on strike for the 1st time in the organizations 103 year history the actions being taken in Northern Ireland from 8 o'clock in a row over pay and patient safety Tony Blair is warning labor not to whitewash the scale of last week's general election defeat in a speech the former prime minister will say the party's problems go fall deeper than the unpopularity of Jeremy Corbett and its brags its stance. President Trump has described impeachment proceedings against him as an attempted coup by the Democrats members of the House of Representatives will vote today on whether he should go on trial in the Senate accused of abusing his palace and the 2nd series of killing Eve was the most popular program on the b.b.c. I player this year spy thriller was the most requested show followed by the police drama line of duty and now his shot with the sport Aston Villa comfortably be Liverpool's youngest starting line ups 5 mill to go through to the semifinals of the e.f.l. Camp with an average age of 19 and 5 debutants the inexperienced Liverpool side never threaten Dean Smith to probably the weirdest major competition core of all are saying or ever been involved in you know they started really brightly they've got some really technically gifted young players but we were very clinical in what we did and very professional showed a really good attitude there was no win situation a little bit for us apart from going for the semifinal because everybody expected us to win but we did what we had to do you can clobber taken a senior players to cattle for their Club World Cup semifinal against Mexican side Monterrey this evening if they win the face Brazil's from a go in the final for the chance to lift a new trophy we don't feel that's favorites or whatever we feel is up as a challenger it would be the 1st time product to product up that can win the Club World Cup Is it the most important cup competition in the world I don't know when us from all different competitions in a continent we are here to represent Liverpool and Europe the match will be live on b.b.c. 2 from 5 30 pm Pep Guardiola says Mikel Arteta will travel to Oxford today for Manchester City's Lee Cup quarter final which will be our 5 Live commentry much later City coach or Tatar is in talks with his former club Arsenal over their managerial vacancy Well Duncan Ferguson will remain in care take a charge of Everton against Leicester Everton are reportedly continuing to pursue Carlo Ancelotti to become their permanent man. We'll have updates of that much in 5 live Sport as well as Manchester United against culture step sorry as the chief executive has apologized for an anti-racism campaign which is received heavy criticism for its use of monkeys on posters Luigi deceit ever says he realizes it was inappropriate the former AC Milan an England striker Luther Blissett says told 5 Live the images just don't make sense it reminds me of and using the n. Word to say that it's Ok to use it because we're trying that it just doesn't work completed shows you know sends out the wrong message just completely about what it's about I think I find it very difficult to really see where they're coming from with. History has been made this fall in Sherrick has become the 1st woman to beat a man at the p.t.c. Well don't championship the 25 year old how to get a 3 to victory of a Ted added to the Suns round Alexandra Palace and says it's one of the best moments that she's made something for women's daunts the Rugby Football Union says talks are continuing with England head coach Eddie Jones over a new contract and they won't rush to extend his deal through to the 2023 World Cup in France he is our if you chief executive Bill Sweeney as I said in Japan with the conversations are ongoing but they don't stop and start at any particular time the there are an ongoing dialogue all the way through so we're not looking at the 6 Nations being at a time until that you know we're in the middle of those charts and 7 jockeys who got 10 day bonds for ignoring a flag signal to stop or races some down of the suspensions overturned after appealing That's the latest from b.b.c. Sport Christmas Day b.b.c. . Whole heap of big names to get through the big day on 5 Live selectors haven't played who's under a tree. We've got Colin Powell is James and John Robinson No it's a special guest Peter Crouch maybe with Liam Gallagher Christiane is a pretty commonly Scott Mills and Chris Tucker James Jimmy Anderson and Felix what the same industry might start with my own of course the queen of Christmas Day with all the big names on b.b.c. 5 live on the b.b.c. Sound just in case you didn't catch all of that but the 5 like websites for full listings the 1st for a new list and the best live school this is b.b.c. 5 live up all night but doesn't add up by an according to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation the a.b.c. The it is officially the hottest day on record in Australia and that's what they're tribute saying that the preliminary data from the bureau mature ology that the average temperature across the country was 40.9 degrees Celsius breaking the mark of 40 point. 3 degrees Celsius set in January 2013 but it's a record unlikely to last for long but more on that. I'm sure in the coming days etc but where there is the average across the country that's the average there are places still expecting the temperature could go up as high as 50 degrees Centigrade this week if you can fathom them and talking of which will kind of talking of which me thing the gas if you burn it in a power station it can be a low carbon source of energy but if it is scapes into the atmosphere the compound is 30 times more potent as a heat trapping gas than c o 2 which is why there's now a satellite looking for me thing emissions and why we've just learned about an accident in that was one of the worst accidental leaks of the gas yet see this pizza Dr Steve Hamburg who is the chief scientist at the Environmental Defense Fund which is a nonprofit Environmental Advocacy Group Dr Hamburg What can you tell us about what happened in Belmont County Ohio in the spring of last year and how was it detected well so there was an explosion of a. Natural gas well and it was root report so people knew it was a fairly large event but well what we were able to do is to use ohmy satellite which was launched by the European Space Agency just to in its routine flyovers look and quantify the size of that blowout. The real significance of this is now with the routine monitoring that that satellites doing which was brand new when when this event happened we can be looking for these kinds of things around the world on a regular basis now what's the science behind this detection the how how does it pick up how do the sets winds pick up the faint emissions as opposed to any of the gas emissions Well there's a if we to in the satellite to very specific wavelengths and look at the light that reflects off the surface of the earth and goes up to the satellite you can actually quantify the amount of methane in the atmosphere and then you basically build a map of the amount which shows where it's been enhanced where there's extra methane versus the background and you see effectively a plume of methane coming out from in this case the explosion so that every well so there is a substantial amount of me thing in the atmosphere nevertheless yet there's there's methane in the atmosphere but on Unfortunately it's increased dramatically. Through human activity and it's a critical factor you were talking about the record breaking heat in Australia and a lot of that is coming from that extra methane that humans have put in it accounts for one quarter of the warming. That we're experiencing now across the globe comes from the extra methane that humans about it's the atmosphere and when you say human activity what do you mean exactly. Well it's oil and gas production and leaking so whether it's in the street in front of your house or the production like at this site no Heigho So it's oil and gas it's coal 'd production as there's a lot of methane associated with coal in addition it's also. Our friends the cows so ruminants if depending on their diet but always they they Burke methane at about a rate I'm out equal to the production of oil and gas so I always I didn't want to be cool suppose this conversation so I voided that Professor but a lot of people who would have heard that and I was so it was some kind of. You know theory that couldn't be substantiated so when cows bring up window break wind they're actually well they don't it's through their mouth I was through the mouth so. Well you see a lot has been lost in translation yes because I did speak out so there you go so when they when they bring up when then threw them out yes actually emitting a substantial amount of the thing right so basically they can digest the things we can right if you go out eat grass we would do very well and in the process of breaking that down it doesn't happen totally efficiently and some of that carbon that's in the grass or the other things that they normally eat it gives off it's been given off by the organisms the bacteria in the gut in the room and to it as methane and you can know reduce that by improving their diet improving the quality of their diet and actually they're now there's a lot of interest and some new supplements you can add to the diet which reduces shifts the micro biome so they produce less nothing and that carbon actually is used by the cow to grow but you can put cows of eating grass that they might be grossed on though they like the grass is not putting them off totally in grass but shifting their diet to a little higher quality material sounds expensive. It is but it's used it's not necessary it's used in lots of agriculture with the supplements and I'm not an expert in the diets of cows but there are many farmers who are raising animals provide supplements beyond just grass the sesamoid and it's to take have what you think will be the impacts of this how much will we be able to reduce the kids who have me thrown into the atmosphere about well the satellite is an incredible it's the beginning of what's a revolution is to be able to see these methane emissions and around the globe on a regular basis we actually at the Environmental Defense Fund are also building a satellite that will extend what we can see beyond the trip only satellite that we used in this case and we're working with the Dutch space agency to do the science and we'll be able to map the methane emissions across all the oil and gas producing region of the world with with increasing. Detail and lower and lower threshold seeing more and more of it and that will really make it clear you don't know what's happening and we don't fix what we don't know so as we get to understand better where those emissions are coming from there's. Enormous evidence to suggest that much of it can be eliminated at no cost the International Energy and agency says at least half of that emissions can be eliminated at no cost so this is really about doing the obvious and the nice part is you can do it without it outing any costs to anyone it's just about focusing and getting good data and if we can detect Smee thing emissions from assessable we can no doubt detect carbon emissions generally right across the globe when it comes to these climate change summit meetings that no country can then say we're annoyed when the culprit as it were you we can define and determine who the biggest culprits are yes so so we're in the methane as is a we're working on that now but there's also increasing capacity in satellites to look at c o 2 and we really need to both that get most people don't recognise aren't aware that how powerful methane is you said at the top of your comments that it was 30 times more powerful than c o 2 was really. More than 80 times more powerful than c o 2 for the 20 years after it submitted so if the emissions this year so whatever we do around the globe that greenhouse gases we put up and their impact on the climate I'll experience for the next 20 years or my daughter will have that impact will come from a thing Ok so it's not instead of c o 2 we've got to do both but we really need to remember that it's more than one greenhouse gas of the Hamburg thank you very much Dr Steve Hamburg the heads of states business leaders and representatives from civil society and humanitarian agencies have gathered in Geneva to attend the 1st have a global refugee forum image and folks has been following events and asked what the atmosphere was like on Tuesday. Well I think this was seen as a as a very high level summit about refugees in fact just as I was leaving the United Nations just a couple of hours ago leaving the b.b.c. Office there. Massed serried ranks of police and limousines because the Turkish prime minister. Was leaving after addressing this summit and then having a meeting with the u.n. Secretary general and his presence here reflects the fact that he is concerned that Turkey is the country with the world's largest number of refugees 3700000 great many of them from Syria and his question is how are we to keep on coping with this you know this war is almost 9 years old this was the 1st ever conference of its kind in refugees what's expected from it do people know the clear is to what the outcome should be. Maybe not entirely That's quite a good question actually I mean the u.n. Has consistently tried to draw attention to the fact that because we have these a great many number of conflicts that just aren't getting solved and you know we could look at Syria but Afghanistan would also be more in Yemen would be another the situation of the Rue hinge of Muslims who fled b.m.r. To Bangladesh a 1000000 of them in camps in Bangladesh now that. It's not safe to go back but what are they supposed to do in the countries many of them also very poor countries which are hosting them and so the un the key thing about this summit has made it different from un appeals before is that they have said look we all need to face up to this can't have the sort term immediate humanitarian relief kind of solutions that we've had in the past where we may have you know camps where people stay safe in tent than and poor to cabins and so on and then a few months later they'll be able to go back this is not happening it needs to be a different approach now a long term more durable approach which means maybe more acceptance of some of these people can't ever go back more acceptance they may be in countries for a long time they should be allowed to work they could have skills they could be doctors teachers engineers you know who could actually you know. Provide something for the country who is hosting them you will know image and there has been an ongoing debate about refugees sometimes here particularly in Europe you know Fortress Europe you want to describe it because of the numbers of people coming over not least across the Mediterranean losing their lives and now across the English Channel we saw an incident just yesterday of British border patrol and French authorities are trying to deal with people trying to cross the Channel to get to the United Kingdom and that debate also. Brings in all sorts of questions as to who is a refugee and who's in economic migrants in all sorts of parameters as well as far as the United Nations Refugee Agency the u.n.h.c.r. Is concerned how many refugees are there in the world. 26000000 and if you want to add the number of people who are actually displaced by conflict of maybe tried to go to a safer place inside their own border borders it rises to 70000000 which is actually you know around about the population of Great Britain maybe rather more so quite a horrifying figure and certainly you know thousands of times higher than whatever numbers there are apparently crossing the Channel and I think this is you know I'm sitting here in Geneva the kind of humanitarian capital of the world quite frankly there's a real sense of frustration inside the United Nations inside the Red Cross this constant feeling in Europe that. People coming into countries are somehow some massive threat when every single country in Europe including the u.k. Has signed the un convention on refugees which says if you were fleeing conflict and persecution we our hero are obliged to offer you protection so when you ask You know it's quite hard to find the difference between an economic migrant and a refugee the u.k. Is actually Blige to find that out itself it's obliged to do the research in conjunction perhaps with the u.n. And charitable organizations but it's obliged to do that and what it's not supposed to do is just say no we're not letting anybody in and as you said Fortress Europe this is this is a problem now these are very wealthy countries who the u.n. Says Fine you're giving money but it's not actually enough you have to be more accepting you have to provide a bit of space even if it's only for a few 1000 even if it's only for you know the most vulnerable. Refugees of he think children alone in refugee camps young women alone in refugee camps people who are disabled people who are severely traumatized by conflict they are very vulnerable inside some of these refugee camps I have been in these camps and frankly you would not like to be there and you certainly wouldn't like to be there with your kids thinking they can't go to school I can't go to work and I might be here for 10 years and is that the definition by the un a.g.r. Of a refugee somebody use free. Conflicts or resolution as your position that's in the 1951 convention on refugees and that if you think if every country is entitled to assess somebodies application for asylum and usually they do that they're supposed to do is do that with the person themselves with knowledge of the country from which they have come and with supporting. With support from charitable organizations who perhaps work in conflict zones and also know the conditions that is more somebody in the u.k. Would be one. Who has signed the un convention on refugees is supposed to do what you're not supposed to do it's very technical term it's called non reform and you're not supposed to just send somebody back if you think they could actually die if you're rich or be tortured or persecuted if you return them to their country of origin. And I suppose this is Bob The problem is that. It there is no unified sort of thinking about the definition of refugee that each nation decides itself does their point of entry whether you are a refugee whether rather than a refugee being able to present themselves and it's self-evident. I think it has become increasingly difficult. I'll give you one hypothetical but it's a very real example for many refugees if you were fleeing a country like Syria for example where not only is it racked by war but you perhaps have been in or position to President Arafat right you might flee with a false identity because if you sleep with your real identity didn't you might be picked up at the border arrested tortured killed so you flee with a false identity or with no identity papers when you get to a country where you think oh I could apply for asylum here increasingly countries have said unless you have bona fide a identity papers we will not consider you. Then there is another example and I saw this myself many years ago that in in former Yugoslavia which I reported from some countries have said you can apply for asylum to our embassy in the country. Of conflict if you're fear for your life in your own country you cannot for example go to a British embassy or a Swiss embassy and say anymore I need asylum you used to be able to do that you can't anymore this is why people are crossing the Mediterranean because they're being told if you really want to apply for asylum you have to come to us but then also you have to have a proper passport the same as you came from the country in which you were persecuted and what the u.n. Says about this is if you shut off all the once legal methods for applying for asylum people are going to try illegally and then we get to this talk sick mix of confusing migration and illegal migration with asylum seekers and refugees and get people dying in that what what's what makes Turkey different I suppose it's a border country a front line country to have my most volatile of conflicts which is Syria but nevertheless the fact that it's prepared to absorb so many refugees is it the fact that other states are prepared to fund key to accept refugees to stop them in principle from going for the coming towards of the European countries is that what makes their situation different and what about Germany as well because Germany famously is the country in Europe that is. Taken the number the largest numbers of refugees by far the largest numbers I wonder whether that's. A. A social conscience thing because of the history and so I wonder what makes those 2 countries 30 different at a summit like this. That's a very deep question it's very very complex sorry I apologize are going to join us from there about that that's Ok I mean it's really interesting to to answer Turkey 1st of all is a frontline state you know to a war zone and these are the countries which always take the most people in fear of their lives particularly families will pick their kids up leave everything behind and run that's what any normal That's the normal human instinct and you will run until you think you are safe and that often means to the nearest border Lebanon and Jordan also borders Syria also have a great many Syrian refugees. Turkey did a deal with European Union we have a while where we saw vast numbers of people crossing from Turkey to the Greek Islands picking up again at the moment but it was shut down for a while because the European Union offered to supports church financially to house these refugees in the hope that eventually keep them close to home which is what refugees want to do most of them and soon they will be able to go back that unfortunately with Syria hasn't worked out in addition prime minister erred one complained in Geneva today that he hadn't received about 50 percent of of the billions that the European Union had promised so he's not entirely happy it's got 3700000 refugees and he's not getting the money he was promised to support them other political thing with Turkey I think they see a chance because they border northern Syria Kurdish territory they went in there the Turkish military. A lot of Kurds left and they are talking now about creating a safe zone for Syrian refugees in the northern part of Syria Turkey would like that because it gives the Kurds as a threat it would like them a very long way from the Turkish border into Cardiff repopulated with refugees. And you also asked me about Germany I think their history a colleague of mine who works for German television once told me he thought angle Americal really had no choice but to say yes we will let these refugees in given Germany's history that they could not be the country in Europe which erected barriers and turned desperate people away and Anglo-American got a lot of criticism for that in some quarters but if you look 2 to 3 years down the line there has been quite a good acceptance and integration of the people who arrived in particular if you go to the un refugee agency which tries to offer positive images of refugee integration there are a great many of them unfortunately it's not what you and I in the media concentrate on that there are great many very good examples of how Syrian refugees have been integrated in Germany and are working under being accepted in their communities see clearly a lot to discuss at this conference in Geneva do we know what's going to be happening later on today Wednesday. Well Wednesday's the final day we expect to know exactly what financial pledges have been made and we expect them from business which was also invited and member states to be fairly significant but money is not necessarily the primary thing that the u.n. Wants here they want what we were talking about earlier longer term solutions for refugees they want to host countries to relax some of them have bams on working bands on children attending regular schools they want them to relax that because they think that it's very damaging particularly for refugees who are refugees for many years war is the point of not making use of their skills in education what is the point of not allowing children to go to school and the other thing is they want wealthy countries and that would be Europe that would be North America to provide more places for resettlement for the most vulnerable refugees who really need to be go out to these camps who are just going to suffer and be be victimized and possibly you know victims of sexual violence inside these camps and I'm presuming the refugees themselves have had a say at this conference so that everybody knows where they want. There have been some speakers. I think a young woman from Iraq and another one from Syria and what they they did which I thought was was rather nice and hopefully had an impact on some people was say I get up and say this is my name this is what I'm like This is the person I am not I'm I'm not just an Iraqi refugee I'm not just a Syrian refugee My name is a mirror my I like to do this I like music and I think this this would maybe help a lot of people particularly people who read the tabloid headlines and worry about people in boats crossing the Channel it might help them to think you know that could be me or that could be my daughter and how nice it would be if another country said you know what you're safe with me and you can go to school here in Egypt folks are reporting from that refugee conference in Geneva in the next hour of the program we'll find out just why our colleagues at a.b.c. In Canberra had some good cause the programs from outside the studio what happens you know continue to do that are they that skillful they can just transfer the skills to the Algerian that is you without missing a big country that. Many of the law is printing money for anyone else this b.b.c. Radio 5 markets work out good morning this is up all night of fog lava boats and I divide the main news on 5 life thousands of nurses in Northern Ireland go on strike and in sport Aston Villa reach the League Cup semi finals up to comfortably beating Liverpool's Youngs does. This is b.b.c. 5 Live the speeds he does on father's Victoria holiday around 9000 this is a walking out in Northern Ireland this morning interest in a dispute over pay and conditions it's the for. 1st time the Royal College of Nursing have gone on strike anywhere in the u.k. Chris page is a Northern Ireland correspondent the Boyle College of Nursing has existed for a 103 years but members of never before gold strike the union says pay for nurses in Northern Ireland has fallen by 15 percent in real terms it's years paramedics social workers and administrative staff are also working on it and they all want their with just to be released to the same level as n.h.s. Employees in the rest of the u.k. Angry Labor M.P.'s have accused Jeremy Corbin and his advisors of being responsible for their resoundingly election defeat the labor leaders face the parliamentary party at a meeting Meanwhile the kiss Dhamma the shadow brags that secretary has told the Guardian he's seriously considering running for. President Trump has described impeachment proceedings against him as an attempted coup by the Democrats in an angry letter to the speaker of the House of Representatives Nancy Pelosi Mr Chairman compared his treatment to the victims of the 17th century Salem Witch Trials Liz Cheney is a Republican congresswoman no where in the Constitution does it say if you are angry at the president or if you are angry at the opposing party or you disagree with his policies or you are afraid you can't beat him in the next election that you can just assume impeachable conduct yet that's what the Democrats are doing half a 1000000 whole point in in the set washing machines are being recalled over fears they could catch fire money factual Well Paul says customers can still use their machines in the meantime if they choose the Cold War setting then folds would let the government's review of the u.k. Product recall system it's appalling to say over of America.
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