That said for any government to sustain there has to be compatibility in terms of the broad for government it has to be quite here and it has to be sustainable and deliverable storm Kiran has been battering the u.k. Causing widespread flooding and power cuts for more than half a 1000000 people dozens of domestic and international flights were cancelled while rail companies urged passengers not to travel gusts of almost 100 miles per hour recorded on the Isle of Wight millions of people in China are returning to work after the Lunar New Year break which was extended to try to curb the spread of the coronavirus many factories and offices have been ordered to stagger their working hours to limit the number of people in public places a 4th person has been diagnosed with a corona virus in Britain and is being treated in hospital in London the man contracted the illness while on holiday in France after coming into contact with another British man who was already infected the former common Speaker John Bercow has said it's blindingly obvious there's a concerted campaign to stop him receiving a peerage Mr Bercow who stood down in October has faced accusations of bias over breaks it as well as questions about his behavior towards colleagues one of the world's most renowned opera singers Mirella Frayne e has died at her home in the Italian city of modern or she was $84.00 she was a child prodigy who 1st performed in public at the age of 10 and went on to develop a vast repertoire that included the works of Verdi Puccini and Tchaikovsky b.b.c. News. This is b.b.c. Radio 4 no Moneybox with Louise Cooper today we hear from one listener whose search for love online ended up costing her hundreds of pounds even though she had signed up to a dating website under 2 pounds 99 months trial and one previously bank list town in Northumberland now has a new bank based in its community center could this be a viable model for other rural areas but 1st money boxes found there's been a big increase in the number of young adults being taken to court for unpaid debts court records show that last year around 160000 people in their twenties were given county court judgments or c.c. Jase in England and Wales That's up 30 percent from the year before and this is the continuation of a long term rising trend the sums that these young adults Oh well in many cases just a few 100 pounds cloudier is a 23 year old and lives in Cardiff she found out she had a c c j when she applied for a job they are asked if they could do a credit check he called me one often in and he said there's sort of a red so of alerts that's popped up on your credit score so. A you owe him any more money or anything like bar but I was 100 percent sure so he said well it looks like you are about 270 pounds and the county court judgement with filed in April 27th teen I didn't even know was he just never heard of something of a before I never received any correspondence The whatsoever are was completely oblivious I didn't I think understand the severity of what I had on my credit score and how much it would actually affect me until I tried to change my phone balance in my name and it would and why. And then again when my car broke and we tried to finance a car in my name and I didn't walk and then again I found dollar how absolutely serious it was when I got my latest job I was told basically it needs to come off otherwise I could potentially so be fired for it. That was cloudy out it just gives you one example of the devastation c.c. Jase can cause Journal joining me now Mick McAteer chair of the registry trust this is an organization that manages records of county court judgments on behalf of the Ministry for justice how do you make good afternoon now we heard from cloudier has c c j almost cost her her job in a bank gave a problems getting a phone contract and call finance So what is a c c j and how can it be so has such a massive impact on someone's life well a c c j or a country court judgment as a as a legal mechanism a court order that a lawyer creditors like banks or utility companies or foreign companies to recover debts that are owed her that are owed to them and as you rightly say you know what we've seen last year is a record number of judgments been registered on the not for profit register trust register over 1150000 judgments were registered last year that's a record level that's more than double the level we've seen in the aftermath of the financial crisis you know this was something that's going wrong in terms of financial financial stress and it could stop a young person will make it very difficult for young person to get a mortgage Well this is the thing I mean I see c.j. Can affect her ability to get a good value mortgage on secure credit can affect her ability to rent in the private sector or indeed increasingly more employers are actually doing credit checks on on their prospective employers and these banks in law firms are required to check to do a credit check on prospective employees as well why do you think more more young people all having these county court judgments made against them and this is very very interesting outwardly think it's just 2 main reasons on the one hand. We're seeing employer record employment rate some of the low interest rates for a long long time which is very very good you know but that fact that headline story really conceals that there's a lot of people particularly young people who are suffering real financial stress at the. And we think that starts because of a number of reasons we're seeing in the raisins Iraq contracts which means you know the fewer people or more people who get less stable less certain jobs for their cash flows are affected but also what we've also seen as well as a massive raise in the number of Georgians we've seen a fall in the average value of Georgians which means that more and more creditors are actually using the courts to recover smaller debts we think that younger people are being affected by the hangover from paid payday loans that are still coming through the system mobile phone contracts and all the things like subscription services which tend to be lower value debts but you know where we're seeing a big raise in the number of smaller debts being forced against you know the figures we quota for England and Wales on the general trend similar in Northern Ireland which also has 60 days and in Scotland where the process is slightly different called in forcing a debt by diligence Yes So there's a slightly different system and Scotland and Northern Ireland and the rates of increase or we're not seeing are as great as they are and even in Wales and it's probably a number of reasons for that I mean if you look at Scotland Scotland has sort of your scores better and the number of households who have savings in her don't have savings there's lower levels of over indebtedness in Scotland compared to some places like the Northeast the northwest and some people say you know there are some research reports that suggest that you know the Scots are counting or with money you know on the better you know higher levels of financial literacy in Northern Ireland what we see is that are you know people don't pay to water bills directly like you do in England Wales is paid through a thing called the rates which means so that utility utility enforcements are not as great in places like northern The compared to England Wales and cloudy I didn't know she had a c c j how can that happen well there's a number of reasons rather think what happens with one of the big problems I think facing young people is that they tend to move house more often you know you know the make they'll rent privately and though that the could move quite often because they're college or moving in with friends and really you know it's getting increasingly hard to keep track of where whether or not their judgment has been sent to the previous address and so on. Address to the right address you know so people are there are there's a way I'm so pleased that we're having we have a chance to come on the program to raise awareness of this because. Not being aware of it can really blight your prospects no it's an indication that more and more people are suffering financially but the worrying thing is that the judgment stone a record on they will affect your prospects in the various was great they were raising awareness of it if someone gets a c. C.j. This is important advice what can they do well I apologise to the school a sign of a bit complicated but there's a number $16.00 is the number of things you can tell you if you pay the debt off within a month of getting the c.c.t. It's counseled so it means it just comes off the record you know or indeed if you challenge the existence of the seeds of the debt a self you can go to the courts and try and get a set aside but that those costs money actually going to pay a court fee for that but there are all the ways there's a thing called satisfaction what that means that if you pay off the debt after a month that the record still stays in your file but a smart dissatisfied and that is very very important because if it ever does mark a satisfied and a lot of lenders and so on will actually treat that much more favorably than if you haven't paid off the debt so it's very very important to satisfy the judgments McAteer thank you joining me now all say the chair of the House of Commons Justice Committee so Robert nail Welcome to moneybox. What do you make of the rise in c.c. J.s received by young adults but I think it's very troubling and it it is I think you just have to make part of an underlying problem of absolute lack of financial education that we have. Our committee had a look at the next trader from this about a year or so ago which is when they used to enforce a c c j is that some expect that comes along because a lot of the harm of the c c j has already been done to people's credit rating the other thing that we found was search as well as people probably not having a sufficient understanding for all the reasons that you've just heard there's another structure people who. Fall into problem debt about 45 percent is estimated by many of the churches in the field of some type of mental health it sees big depression of the problems is less likely to cause a lot to be working full time and so on so we need to tackle both of those Ok what 2 days ago the government announced when it cools a space for those with in problem debt very simply what is it well each year to try to keep to try to put the healthier What are we She's obviously desirable but I'd like to see lower or details as to how she's actually in operate the main practice Weaver just in the pearls to the thing that makes by the point that someone is Asians have been much more ready to resort to say C.J.'s than others one of the worst from the left offenders will local authorities take a high percentage of those were done by local authorities the other people in the film in the field have been more willing to look at staging to giving people still shots to pull so saying Can they get x. Sorted out without the lead to results of the costs of course action and then sending in the baby stare off to learning that these are will be allowed to see how it comes in practice and he started substitute for us making sure that people didn't get into debt in the 1st place thank you to you because we put the increase to the Ministry of Justice they told us they don't routinely comment on noises in statistics. February 14th is now just a few days away now you maybe want to buy champagne and flowers or take a more bar humbug lets ignore it approach but for some companies it's a chance to make some serious cash including dating firms faced with spending Valentine's Day alone many a prompted to look online to find romance but there can be hazards one Moneybox listener Sasha signed up to the website Dating dot com under what she thought was a 2 parent 99 month long trial that ended up costing her hundreds of pounds an hour literally an hour after I'd paid my 3 pounds I got quite a few e-mails from people and Dating dot com and match me with the criteria I put it was very simple like woman seeks man a nothing much else really than than that and so they matched all these people that came to my site not as well you know these are so much better than the other people on other sites and you clicked on the on my own I don't like to on the e-mails and it said 10 points to read this e-mail but I didn't really understand that because I thought I would engaged in a month trial so did I took no notice and read the e-mail from the suitors that they sent me and I was interested some of the my reply to and I did that over the course of a couple of days and I got so many or very similar. And then I saw when I was looking at my banking I saw a payment of 59009 and I thought I must've misread the something that because I didn't expect to pay 59009 but because it was only 5099 I really didn't take much notice so then I got an alert from my bank to say I was overdrawn thought I'd like could miss one earth if I don't you know so I looked at my but online banking on my phone that very minute a notice that there were several payments of 5099 in total it came to nearly 300 pounds did you get a date number who also joining us is George Kidd chief executive of the online dating Association Georgia your reaction to such a story and why 1st as they often feel I should be buying such a dinner. Unimpressed would would hardly cover it. Tens of millions of people use dating services the part of everyday life the part of the social fabric 30 percent of relationships start this way they don't happen this way in the vast vast vast majority of cases I don't know of no service that charging you $300.00 pounds for a week or whatever messages and under the concept here is to be regulated around that you know I get paid as you go and I get the concept of novel charging mechanisms online particularly in social media and streaming things like that. But I'm not happy with the concept of pay as somebody else goes the idea that you know you've joined a service and the capacity to charge sits with the other party rather than rather than social I did look at the terms and conditions Sasha and it does 12 pages and on page 9 it is pretty explicit a video chat calls for credits a minute a 2 way video chat cost $6.00 credits a minute sending of photo 15 credits a sticker. 5 credits I mean is all that it is all that but all I did it was read the e-mail that came into me that was service to me by then I didn't I must admit I didn't check all 12 pages of the terms and conditions because I believe myself to be in the free month period that the 3 pounds enable me to do to have a look can I just ask you please George what regulation and consumer protection is there around this industry. A lot would be the simple answer though there's clearly a lot on personal data and how it's used and the the most relevant here I think is unfair commercial practices as an ex regulator I would be concerned that presenting something that says this costs $3.00 pounds and highlighting that as a key for fact and not presenting the fact that there could be a father $270.00 pounds worth of charges within days is misleading to give it a kindness I mean you know that what is the most relevant piece of information here and I think it's not the 399 what you have now discovered it is when you signed up to Dating dot com there was a box that was pretty ticked yes gave your gave Station dot com approval to take money from your account yes that bit I hadn't understood I thought that was I didn't really it wasn't on the same page where I make the payment to take the trial 3 pounds it was on a different page altogether and that pre-taped box and we spoke to a consumer rights lawyer who said actually silence pre-taped boxes or inactivity does not constitute consent to take money from your account Exactly yeah and I think that's not and I think that's not fair we when we set this thing up 5 years ago and the we didn't just look at user safety we looked at things like fairness of terms and conditions and how people looked after data and it says Be clear on the deal if somebody is in sash. Position what should they be looking for for a good online dating site versus a bad one. Well number one I think I would say it's an emotional investment as well as a financial one it's certainly yes I would say so take your time and that's not a criticism of Sasha she's really had an unfortunate unfair experience we would say look for the Audi a logo the people who join the association took their responsibilities seriously speak to family and friends you know if their 2 percent of relationships start this way we all know somebody has been using services are recommended ations introductions. A bit of trial and error and I would say also you just have to have a think what it is you're looking for and I took such as point and I looked at some of the sites and you know it's almost you can have Robert Redford or dom Johnson or whatever it was it was almost the too good to be true. Aspect to it so I think there's a kind of you know it's an emotional financial investment what is I'm looking for here and does this cat package seem to match what I'm after Sasha and George kid from the online dating a say c ation we all stating dot com 2 key questions the 1st about automatic payments in the pre-taped tick box which Dating dot com ignored and the 2nd question about can potentially they're confusing terms and conditions there was spawns with their terms and conditions are clear and transparent as they could be dating dot com also pointed out that if customers believe they have been illegally charged they should contact the Dating dot com customer support term. Over a 3rd of all bank branches have closed in just the last 4 years as more and more of us go online but as money box has reported many times before this is left some will communities without access to banking services one such place is were in Northumberland for 2 years it had been a bank list town leaving residents with a 40 mile round trip if they needed to go into a branch but no longer This week New Castle building society opened a branch in the town's community center it shares a desk with a library is open 5 days a week with a cash machine and an office for face to face meetings Moneybox went along to the opening on Thursday and got a tour of the premises with branch manager should warn young or so easily. That the tourist information in the life be dead. At Any Cost of our new house inventing society desk which is where we carry out our ideally transactions in 1st class the t.s.p. Pulled over for a long long time or the other banks pulled out approximately a couple of years ago now it was such a fantastic use when the building site he said they were going open that branch which is my hometown we offer our customers savings we have mortgages we have a financial adviser based here we can do home insurance life insurance a state planning which is will power to any funeral plans you name it we can do it here the same as all of our other bigger branches we've got every service available in this little branch was going to be able to come in and talk to somebody in the flesh mission work to cook a banker believe in the life of the little community. And the right not hard to walk through while for this to happen which. Is just crappy I think is to have something you can actually go to speak to somebody. I'm young I'm still happy to go online and still so it's not really much different for me. Joining us live is Andrew Hague chief executive of the Newcastle building society welcome Andrey. Why did you open this branch Well I think we can all agree something has to change I've yet to meet anyone who thinks it's a good idea that a town has no financial institution in it so we think it's time for some new thinking and a fresh more positive approach a more innovative approach so how much cheaper is a community center barge than a High Street branch Well we're operating on maybe an 8th or a 10th of the footprint that we would have in a traditional city center branch so obviously that does dramatically change the cost of being there but it's not just about the bricks and mortar and just about the cost for us it's also about finding our place in the community and how we embrace support and even celebrate the community but 8th or 10th. Footprint or that less cost does that mean you can have a 10th last customers I mean does it work like that I'm trying to get at the sort of cost benefit analysis you need to go through how many people need to visit the branch to make it justifiable to a degree yes we can operate with a smaller number of customers in a location in a smaller town that's going to be really important I mean what we found we opened a branch in yum on the river tees that in 2016 where we had the branch within the library and again that very quickly became to be part of a community hub and that grew to be able is our fastest growing branch so it's not actually the aspiration isn't to be doing something less but it's to be having a real impact in the towns in which we're located now I looked online and the community center and well it has yoga with Margaret on Wednesday afternoon and tight she. Cheese days you're going to go along probably those things not for me but that's not important it's not about me it's about the customers and what they want in the locality but do you find the benefits they get to yoga followed by a chat about your overdraft it probably would have helped to be honest but it's all about tailoring what we do and in the locations we were in we're operating in now we've got probably 13 community spaces where communities can do what they want within that space and that's incredibly important about building this close personal human relationship with with our customers so people come in and run yoga classes in your branches Yes they can literally the community can decide what they want so you're doing the community space Ok So is this potentially a model for other banks and building societies to follow and were all areas well as I say something has to change I don't see why it wouldn't be because we have to really stop thinking about branches with the old traditional banking model and look to what is it that our communities want how do they want us to serve them so if others are inspired by this that would be brilliant because it is so important that we do something to keep branches on a high strength of course your mutual not a pale see with shareholders and dividends and I think that makes a big difference it really brings us right back to what do our customers want what do they need from yours and how do they want us to be present in their communities it's not a bank branch you're in a community center What about safety and security well probably don't want to talk too much about security but other than to say we have extremely high standards of security in all our branches and if we couldn't achieve the same very high standards we wouldn't be elsewhere prate within the within the locations that were working in Andrew Hague thank you very much for your time just before we get a reporter down with us here with some of your messages Yes that's right Louise Laura tweeted us at Moneybox to say she agrees with some of the reasons we've been highlighting that could be behind that big rise in c c J's she said. She thinks the precarious nature of 0 hours contracts is definitely one reason for the rise what m.j. Said a lot of young people she knows want everything now and are able to budget with her final 4 being that credit is just far too easy to get nowadays I'm just looking at Suzy emailing Moneybox b.b.c. Doc say people not need to start to think to start taking responsibility for their finances and of course one way you can take responsibility of one is finances of course listening to money box and money box life as always we like to add a little something extra for you and our money box podcast this week we have from Karen. We want to you want to be able to succeed. And do better in life just seems like yeah often Yeah it just gets harder and. I chat with the producer of a b.b.c. 2 series called Universal Credit inside the welfare state I'm back on Wednesday afternoon with Money Box Live Today the producer was Alex Lois and I'm Louise Cooper now Julie Walters makes the Radio 4 appeal on behalf of tropical health and education trust we all know how scary it can be when you're ill I can't imagine turning up at the doctor's or the hospital and finding no one there is able to help in places all around the world this is the reality 1000000000 people will never meet a qualified health worker the tropical health and education trust is working to change this for over 30 years they have been training health workers across Asia and Africa from midwives in Nepal to surgeons in Ethiopia in Somaliland an autonomous region of Somalia civil war has left over 1000000 people unable to access adequate health care childbirth is the greatest danger a woman faces the tropical health and education trust he's training the next generation of health workers. How are lives in the remote village of Abdulle surrounded by arid scrub it's 2 hours by bus to the nearest hospital in rural areas like this in Somaliland 40 percent of women won't survive pregnancy and childbirth Howard watched women around her Darley joining childbirth because there was no qualified health worker to help them to ensure women like our can deliver safely the tropical health and education trust has trained over a 1000 health workers in emergency obstetric and newborn care in Somalia and among them Saeed a nurse from Howard's village who was there throughout her pregnancy for every check up this meant Saeed realised that Howard urgently needed a says Arion and referred her in time to Dr Khaleel in the nearest town who also received training from the tropical health and education trust their training meant that how I was able to give birth safely and return home with a healthy baby girl women in how is village are no longer afraid of giving birth and in how as words women do not suffer anymore in Abdulle. It costs 55 pounds to provide one day of a 3 day supplementary training course for a nurse like Saeed your support will ensure that qualified health workers are there when people need them the most you can give now just search online for b.b.c. Radio 4 appeal or call 804048144 that's 80448144 or you can write a check to the tropical health and education trust and send it to free post b.b.c. Radio 4 appeal that's the whole address and importantly please mark the back of your envelope tropical Health and Education Trust thank you. That was Julie Walters the calls are free from landlines and mobiles and as Julie said you'll find all the details forgiving by searching online for b.b.c. Radio 4 appeal and if you're a u.k. Taxpayer and you like tropical health and education trust to collect the gifted on your donation then please include your email or postal address so that they can send you a gift aid for. Well a combination of data and artificial intelligence transform the future of the n.h.s. Analysis investigates in a few moments here on Radio 4 at 10 it's the Westminster hour and here now is Carolyn Quinn Hi Cathy thank you yes we're expecting some significant announcements this week including the decision on it just to a reshuffle of the Johnson cabinet and emergency legislation to deal with terror convicts with me tonight on new conservative m.p. And former council leader Nikki Aiken Labor's Lloyd Russell Morial the chief executive of demos Polly McKenzie and Jack bunch of the editor of Politico London playbook that must read morning guide will also be examining whether there's any chance of the political parties coming together to resolve that crisis issue of Social Care join us here on Radio 4 you can at 10 o'clock. Thanks Carol and before that analysis Britain is sitting on a precious resource David adman's asks whether a combination of data and artificial intelligence will transform the n.h.s. . In the year 1848 western half of the United States was a wild and unsettled mind but new gold deposits were discovered in California. It's become a cliche to compare the windfall of mineral oil discoveries with our digital age in which there's a new commodity a commodity that may prove move valuable than any natural resource data. Oil fields may be one in down but now corporations are investigating where to drill for the data and this one u.k. Organization in particular we've lucrative potential. People are getting excited about and it's just data because it is a unique. In a world in which they too is increasingly being seen as valuable. What makes the n.h.s. Is datasets unique in the fact that the n.h.s. Have been able to capture enough people every day long period of time it's unsurpassed in terms of its size and the range of richness to operations at. The only country that can boast a single payer health care dataset all managed by a single organization that covers in England 55000000 people in the u.k. 65000000 people the only country in the world that's competitive without is South Korea and there's not a lot of people scrambling off to South Korea to do their data so I think it is unique. Your hospital and g.p. Visits generate data to you on what illnesses you've had how you've been treated and how your body responded in this edition of analysis I'll be off with the data is set to transform the n.h.s. Is going to change medicine for them but is there a danger that this data may be flogged off to the private sector a bargain basement prices. 10 carat gold is low quality 24 cal it is high quality just as natural resources like gold can be a very in quality so can data secure bill is really just professor of medicine at Oxford University he leads the Government's life sciences into still strategy it's rather different pools of data within the n.h.s. Some of it is pretty structured and readily accessible for example we are building pretty substantial resources in imaging data radiological imaging data pathology images scanned pathology slides and of course genomic data where the world leaders in terms of genomic Cinna health care system genomic data refers to the sequencing of d.n.a. Not each of which has become vital for biological research so that's really a very very good data the hospital discharge data is been structured for a long time it's all coded we know exactly what it means and there's quite a lot of good g.p. Data and they've got very good lab oratory data they've got very good hospital discharge data all the prescription records go through the G.P.'s So where you get messy data is the general ordinary day to day in hospitals where House staff are scribbling things or stuffing stuff in the h.r. So it would be absolutely wrong to sell this is a absolutely pristine curated data set but it is big and a lot of it is very good the messy bits a messy in part because hospital notes some patients oh unstructured they don't follow any formula and they're not consistent among hospitals different hospitals may you slightly different terms for the same condition to pression irritable bowel syndrome migraine fiber Mildura old diseases where patients can be labelled differently. Last year a new unit was established and h s x to lead the n.h.s. Is digital transformation. After Matthew Gould was appointed as cheap executive he wanted to take the temperature of n.h.s. Data so him booked on a nationwide tour I visited hospitals which are still basically running on paper I visited parts of the country where the g.p. Surgeries and the hospitals and the hospice and so forth just can't speak to each other and share records reach out so it's very mixed even where digitalization has happened even where hospitals and bits of n.h.s. Are running digitally you have a number of systems in play so as it all Spittal recently which had $288.00 systems running and the efforts of getting them all to speak to each other in a single provider is huge let alone. That hospitals speaking to other hospitals speaking to g.p. Surgery and speaking to mental health trust the interim clearance is so in the balkanized world of the n.h.s. Some data is unfit for purpose cleaning it up will take time and money but even in its current form it's a which we source and it promises transformational change in $2.00 broad areas 1st logistical Rima Patel works for the Ada Lovelace Institute which has searches the impact of artificial intelligence on society data analytics will lead to a deeper understanding of the ebbs and flows within the n.h.s. She says which in turn will generate huge efficiency savings what can be useful it being able to track entrance times and emissions at any at different times or the year or at different times in a week all at different times in a day that might enable him n.h.s. Trust to identify peak times times when that last demand unless capacity that kind of aggregated data is incredibly valuable it helps the n.h.s. To plan and allocate resources but this is all fairly basic stuff unlikely to generate headlines more news worthy would be a lie breakthroughs in diagnosis and treatment this is one of the busiest accident images in the country it receives probably in a year closing do almost 28290000 attendances which is a huge number of years Queens hospital room for it in east London many patients transported here by ambulance or hospital admission but others abide by their own means on public transport by car or on foot they're directed to a department called mages Lite which sees around 400 patients a day most won't have a condition serious enough to acquire admission the difficulty is identifying those who do not carry a source with 2 hands a consultant you assert. He's also a fellow at the Allen chewing Institute which researches Ai and data science so this standard process is that the patient comes in the front desk is that I just started and then at 3 years nurse will bring the patient to the special cubicle they will spend with them for 5 to 10 minutes asking them questions taking their vitals and making a decision as to whether this patient would need for example to be treated in an upgraded area like in the more serious basins area or it can be downgraded or it can be dealt with in these so-called majors like areas and this is in essence that he has 5 to 10 minutes to establish the urgent cases. Of time but that's the Pusha under which nurses operate in such haste a nurse may mistakenly believe a relatively healthy patient who quads hospital admission and that saps resources. Converse and more seriously they may fail to support a patient with a serious condition with potentially catastrophic weak because shins. But help is at hand in the mathematical form of an algorithm developed by academics at the Allen shilling Institute and n.h.s. Analysts the team is code led by Nick Hell yes it's the algorithm he says data to assess with a patient's condition is serious enough to require immediate admission into the equation closer measurements taken by the nurse blood pressure say than this demographic information age 6 plus this information about whether the patient has recently visited the hospital finally and here's the really ingenious bit the software can analyze natural language used by nerds. Evenness types that the patients complained of tiredness of having vomited the software can factor that in. Here who have have a patient and this is a base and has had their highest bid at it not a very good situation the rate in hi how to date the nurse is getting the information that this person has had enough then there is in the last 28 days which is very important in gives yet another issue a bit of 79 percent which is highlighted in the red there is a 79 percent probability that this patient needs to be admitted to the hospital indeed this trial has been funded by the Health Foundation charity and the full results are still being analyzed. Early indications are promising the system seems to be about 10 percent more accurate in working out which patients have serious conditions and 10 percent more to it in working out which patients can be dealt with by the g.p. . Assholes I would say the biggest prize is that we are 1st of all increasing safety the people that are coming through here maybe 90 percent of those walking basins they would probably have a very low seriousness of disease but you may hear 100 maybe 1000 patients sometimes that they may harbor something more serious and their prize here is where they're at the sort of their systems can factor this up and may be allowed to have a 2nd look life saved through following the successful trial the algorithm should be introduced for Will this year it's only designed for what's called augment to decision making that is it's not replacing the clinical judgment of nurses merely supporting it Sam King is a nurse in the emergency department to Queen's Hospital he says the some nurses particularly more experienced ones expressed skepticism at whether the algorithm will be of any use but he's confident they'll come around I think it does provide reassurance it also confirms their judgement it could also act as a failsafe for them if they've forgotten to write something in and if then they can go back and change it it's going to put you out of a job is not. I don't think it will I don't it should you can look at a patient and you can judge a lot from the color if that shaver in where is the algorithm why necessary pick that up you know it's always good to look at your patient and not just act on numbers well perhaps but technology is developing fast nurses might think we're sure insist from Ai companies that their jobs are safe is spin doctoring. A match like no other is about to get underway in South Korea. During the ingenious will take on artificial intelligence program health regard. To human versus machine smack down the ai company deep mind has humiliated human champions of games like chess and go with machine learning the computer has no need to adopt human ideas about what does and doesn't work with machine learning the computer teaches itself working out its own patterns and successful strategies from thousands millions billions of cases. One exciting promise of Ai is that in my sport causes and connections that humans miss. Bill there was a very nice study done by the Stanford group some years ago where they took the slides from a lot of women who'd had breast cancer and who'd been categorized into groups the group that had died so they clearly had bad breast cancer and the group were still alive 5 years on so it's a really simple but helpful and then they went back and they took all the slides they fed them into a computer and they said can you just measure and quantitate all those different aspects of the images and then tell us what the fundamental differences that would allow you to diagnose breast cancer based on those images it's actually not that complicated and they ended up with a beautiful algorithm that was about 40 percent better than the average befall just in getting the right answer good disease bad disease massively important and what was interesting about it is that standard paradigms since 939 for pathologists has been to look at the cancer cells in breast cancer do they look abnormal at the too many my toes sees that the cells look strange it turned out that the algorithm had nothing to do with the cancer cells that had the stuff to do elsewhere in this thread so it's the old problem that you think you know in the right thing but actually the things that show the the difference in prognosis or somewhere else so those are good examples of what you could do this is exciting very exciting I mean it's mammoth match it's going to change medicine forever. A breakthrough that seems to be announced almost weekly a study last month field I was more accurate than doctors in diagnosing breast cancer for mammograms. Move fields is the oldest I hospital in the world well I think it's fair to say for the last 20 years or so my whole life has been devoted to. More fields consultant up from ologist p.s. Keene showed me a nice scan I'm seeing what about $2.00 to $81013.00 square each with an image and at the top there's a kind of bar chart which tells you. The probability of a particular i disease and there's a very high probability of am on which is macular retinal d.m. And there's almost 0 possibility of c n v Yes that's an interesting one that's cruel me a vascular ization that is the central feature of Wes age related macular degeneration and if it thought that c n.v. Was present it would strongly recommend an urgent peripheral countries are not in great shape maybe 10 percent of all n.h.s. Clinic appointments of our eyes and the percentages wising now the upshot of that is that because we have to deal with such huge numbers of patients there are sometimes delays in getting patients with site written disease in front of an appropriate specialist in a timely fashion. Peirce keen specializes in the treatment of some common causes of blindness such as age would like to macular degeneration every day I went 200 people in the u.k. Develop it quarterly the condition can be treated ideally someone suspected of having a.m.d. Need to the point within a fortnight. But it is the trouble more fields get 7000 urgent with herbals a year but only about 800 of them turn out to have the condition the problem is that you know how do you deal with all those patients to speed it up the obvious solution thought p.s. Keen was a I. In the movie database there are 5000000 retinal scans and it closed daily Could a machine be taught to lead the scans and help identify ITC's he puts Deep Mind world leaders in machine learning the company was founded in the u.k. But acquired by Google in 2014 he had a proposal and told them I'm a consultant more feels people are losing science because they're not being seen and treated quickly enough we're doing more than a 1000 guns per day at more fields we should apply your deep learning technology to these scans and by the way we're 2 stops away from you on the chip so the rest is history that was in 2015 in 2018 the results were published in the prestigious science journal Nature what we showed in that article was that we had developed an algorithm that could look at these oh cities guns and diagnose what was on the scans and its performance was on a par with world leading retina specialists more feels you're leading consultant The upshot is that they say I is as good as you are yes Professor Keene cautions against hype but he expects the Google Morefield algorithm to be well dealt with in the next 2 to 3 years. The more fields Google deal looks like a win win more fields gets the i.r.i. Google gets the data and I was taken aback but up to pieces on to a follow up question. Who owns the intellectual property of that algorithm. So you know this is something that if Google make this into a product in the future then this would be something that they would they would own the intellectual property from that. And yet it's all n.h.s. Data. I think that this 1st up location of this was really just driven by me seeing that people were going blind my focus with this collaboration is saving the size of millions of people and feeling a sense of urgency it's worth pointing out that Deep Mind don't have exclusive access to the data fields could share it with other companies still the deal's not a great look it's hard to see it as anything other than one sided in favor of big tech So John Bell agrees. Google now have this algorithm potentially worth millions tens of millions yeah probably at least I would have thought it's going to make a massive difference because they'll be able to scan your eyes and my eyes and predict who's going to get macular degeneration what drug should they be on you know how fast is the disease progressing I mean you can imagine how valuable that is a diagnostic tool it's massive. To choose stocks from all fields this is the total loss u.k. Headquarters of Google insight to stimulate and now wish the creative juices the breakout areas with soft furnishings food and drink on tap the health team here is now one from the u.s. I want to do about the more fields relationship with a company told me that only one person could give me an interview and he was away throughout the period this program was being made they did however issue a statement which included this. There are many examples of value identified in the Department of Health more fields will receive the free use of an eventual regulatory approved product for 5 years that all their u.k. Sites and it will have access to a world leading data set for future research already being used for 9 separate research studies Amazingly there is currently no definitive list of data sharing arrangements between the n.h.s. And private companies or universities since data is sprinkled throughout the National Health Service n.h.s. X. Is establishing a center of expertise whose aim in part will be to let to fire this and provide legal and financial advice before any deal is struck Matthew Gould didn't want to comment specifically on the more fields deal which was long before he took his job but said the general principle underpinning every arrangement was clear sufficient benefit has to flow back to the n.h.s. And to the country. The form that that benefit takes can be different in different situations in some cases it might be right for whoever it is that provided the data or trust or whatever to get equity to get a profit share other cases it might be appropriate to have guarantees about any future therapies developed out of data being available for the lifetime of the therapies free or cost in other cases it might be appropriate for them to get a large check for it to be a one off arrangement I don't think we would want at this stage to say there is one the arrangement and one approach to getting the benefits out of this state which is right for all cases you want don't go into this individual case but once this center has been set up you'll probably want to ensure that those kinds of deals not all the intellectual property is held by the private company. I mean you try to stick some words in my mouth what this center will do will be to provide advice and support to the system so that when they do their deals sufficient benefit comes back to the n.h.s. How realistic is this Google and large pharmaceutical companies can offer salary packages to attract the best and the brightest legal and commercial minds isn't an asymmetry of negotiating power inevitable Well not according to Matthew Gould even if we can't compete with some of these huge companies in terms of salary. Where the mission is sufficiently exciting where there is a sense that we can. Really change the world people are willing to come on board and I don't think it's just about who can offer the biggest summary I think it's about a you offering people jobs where they can do huge amounts of good and frankly just sit inside the n.h.s. X. To be able to help the u.k. Make and best use of this extraordinary asset that we have in a way which brings direct benefit to the n.h.s. And support people I think is an amazing mission. The data ultimately comes from you to listeners So what do you want it to be used for. There's been various attempts to assess public attitudes to data sharing through surveys and citizen juries they reveal some concerns principally privacy data is anonymised but unless great care was taken individuals could be identified by cobbling together pieces of information. In 2017 the Information Commissioner's Office that the Google world free hospital collaboration had not done enough to protect privacy. Beyond prissy There's also the question of bias data culled from the majority white population for example might be less effective at diagnosing conditions in a minority community. However the Seems to be widespread support for the use of n.h.s. Data which promises to improve health outcomes on the other hand there is widespread concern about the profiteering of private companies especially known push companies. And really nail is the director of policy at future cat capital a charity that focuses on data and technology in health and social care. The data that we're too. Looking about does not belong per se to the n.h.s. It is data about individuals or every single one of us as citizens so we must have confidence in the ways that the n.h.s. Proposes to use that data in inches of research and development there is no data asset as some would have attend without trust and we Naylor has a proposal to assuage suspicion a soft one health fund so 7 Health Fund would take the revenues from deals entered into by n.h.s. Organizations with 3rd parties involving data about us and it would invest that for the long term to create a long term return for generations to come and ring fence that for Health and Social Care It's an idea that's being taken seriously in Whitehall So one of the advantages of the sovereign health and would be to ensure that areas that benefit from Fantastic teaching hospitals and high quality world class universities are not the only ones to benefit from entering into deals with 3rd parties using n.h.s. Control data we want to ensure that every part of the country benefits from the 4th industrial revolution in health care the value of n.h.s. Data comes in many forms most importantly this social value it will improve the quality of our lives then there's long term economic development value fueling innovation in the health sector. As for the crude financial gain this comes not just from what the n.h.s. Can sell but from savings too there are various studies about that value chain from reputable sources and values the data there and $10000000000.00 per annum it is a mix of Clearly revenue returns but also savings from efficiencies that would be reached by doing things better put the $10000000000.00 in context what does that mean for the n.h.s. For example it's larger than the current estimate I have capital funds required to address the maintenance backlog on all of the hospital buildings in the country which is calculated to be around 6000000000 pounds. This is a game changing amount of money potentially. During the recent election campaign a leak of government papers seem to suggest that in any post puts it trade talks with the us the n.h.s. Data was for the us a top priority and it's obvious why Big Pharma wants to get their hands on it to create an algorithm you need 2 things data and data analytics so which of these is more valuable the numbers or the processing of the numbers so John Bell there's almost no doubt about this you can have a room full of the best Ai people in the world and they'll generate no algorithms unless they get terrific data in my view the value is in the data I don't want to downplay the importance of smart Ai scientists but the truth is there can a penny from the real issue is can we get the data in the rights date and in the right structure to make the ai doable. The challenge for the n.h.s. Is to make sure that the value of that data. Our data is not netted disproportionately by the private sector in this new data driven world the n.h.s. Has been dealt a strong hand what really needs is the confidence to understand that it holds almost all the cards. And that addition of analysis was presented by David Edmonds the producer will shoot a coke c.b.c. Sound music radio podcasts the journalist's teenage Healy and Matthew Price explore the world's most urgent questions in the beyond today pod cast a space to ask one big question about one big story the Australian fires Who is to blame it's one thing to know intellectually that it's happening and it's another thing to see it happening to places that you saw as part of your future and is the Internet fueling self-delusion I think the things that algorithms why they're often counter to our ideals beyond today on b.b.c. Sounds download the free app to listen just before the Westminster are a quick look at the weather and the strong winds and heavy showers we saw today will continue for much of the country overnight with snow possible on high ground in the north and west tomorrow much of the country will see a continuation of the strong westerly winds and heavy showers and the chance of hail and isolated lightning in the West in Northern Ireland Scotland and on high ground in England and Wales shares will fall asleep and snow with blizzard conditions and drifting snow possible in the Scottish Highlands a similar picture on Tuesday and Wednesday with further brisk winds and showers for much of the country and us the weather. Radio for its 10 o'clock work under 60 minutes of news and political chats with me Carolyn Quinn in my guests this is the Westminster hour. The main news tonight one of the biggest storms to hit the u.k. In recent years has caused flooding power cuts and travel disruptions.
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