Summit's the richest one percent of the world's population owns more than half of its wealth but those very rich people have spent billions in projects aimed at helping the poor ranging from health care education and humanitarian assistance to scientific research and good governance but critics say at least in the case of the United States only a 5th of the money actually went to those who need it most so is there a need to redefine philanthropy who should decide where that money goes and would it be better spent by the state through taxation instead of via charitable foundations that's the real story from the b.b.c. Coming up after the news. Hello I'm raising remain with the b.b.c. News scientists say the number of people infected by the new RISP era tree forest which is related to solace that is a measured in the Chinese city of Rouhani is likely to be far higher than official figures suggest 41 laboratory cases of the virus have been confirmed talked to Pisa dash back an expert on global emerging diseases says all this is a needed to some important questions we need to know how easy it is for this virus to get from person to person we also need to know if some of the drug candidates that are being developed to fight SARS able to kill this pharmacist so that we have a treatment one critical thing when it's you know it's find out where this virus came from we don't know the animal it originated in we don't know how widespread that is we don't know if it's likely to be in other places in China and if we don't find out we're unable to prevent this happening again the White House has released details of the legal team who defend President trumpet his impeachment trial in the u.s. Senate next week they include Kenneth Starr who's investigation led to the impeachment of Bill Clinton more than 20 years ago the veteran lawyer Alan Dershowitz will take part his previous comments include o.j. Simpson and the convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein Peter Pace in Los Angeles looks at how the trial will apron it will start slowly I think with the presentations from both sides the fireworks may come a little bit later and it may well depend on that decision that we still haven't heard whether or not witnesses and clearly the Democrats who are bringing this prosecution they want to see witnesses they believe there are individuals that can explain what they know about what went on during that time that President Trump was talking to you cry in Honduras and the Organization of American states have failed to agree on a new mandate for an anti corruption mission that has operated in the Central American country for the last 3 years a foreign ministry statement said there have been concerns the body had overreached its mandate the OAS mission said it had strengthened the fight against corruption in one jurists by indicting over 100 people and bringing 14 to trial. 4 teaches in Los Angeles assuming the u.s. Carrier Delta red lines for negligence after a plane dump thousands of gallons of fuel levy their school playground earlier this week the teachers say the fuel burned their skin on ice and throats and sent children screaming for cover Gloria Allred and lawyer for the teaches says the pilots failed to follow proper procedure has had to pilot notified air traffic personnel of the need to don't fuel the flight would have been directed by air traffic control to a location into an after tude from which fuel could be released without danger to the teachers the students and others at the school news from the b.b.c. One of President Trump's earliest supporters in the u.s. Congress a former lawmaker Chris Collins has been sentenced to more than 2 years in prison for his role in an insider trading scheme Mr Collins a New York Republican has also been fined 2 $100000.00 he was arrested in 2018 for corruption Mexico's president Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador says he is considering ruffling off his predecessor as $130000000.00 presidential jets off to efforts to find a private by I came to nothing the Boeing 787 Dreamliner was acquired by the former president and Rico opinion yet the window would get the plane and up to 2 u.s. Funding to fly it's the current president has described the plane as a symbol of access. The Simpsons access Hank Azaria has said he will no longer provide the voice of an Indian immigrant who runs a convenience store in the long running American cartoon and accusations of racism have dogged the character for years partly because Hank Azaria is white. And the Walt Disney Company has announced that no further films will be released under the logo 20th Century Fox The studio behind classic films from The Sound of Music to alien Vincent out reports. It's one of the best known pieces of film music Alfred Newman's 20th Century Fox fanfare 87 years old it still in use is not going to disappear but from now on opening titles will refer not to 20th Century Fox but to 20th century studios last year the Walt Disney Company bought 20th Century Fox and other interests belonging to Rupert Murdoch for more than $78000000000.00 Disney wants to make clear their company isn't now related to Mr Murdoch's Fox Corporation or to Fox News Vincent Dowd reporting b.b.c. News this is the real story from the b.b.c. World Service with me Julianne Moore occur over the next hour we'll be discussing philanthropy how some of the world's richest people choose to spread their wealth to those who need it most whether it works but if it doesn't whether there's a better way on the surface the generosity of people like Bill and Melinda Gates or Warren Buffett is unarguable they're committed along with others to give the majority of their wealth to charitable causes either during their lifetimes or in their wills this is via their creation of the Giving Pledge other billionaires have either signed up to it too or are invited to do so. But what about the very rich people who choose not to give for those who restricts their giving to political or religious causes or those who give and then argue that they should pay less tax as a result is that where the state is a better place to raise funds and share them out more equitably and as more people around the world become very rich How does philanthropy look beyond the capitalist west Well these are timely questions as next week the great and the powerful from the world of business and politics will be gathering in the Swiss resort of Davos speaking at Davos last year the historian Rutger Bregman caused something of a stir with this observation 1500 private yet flown in air to hear Sir David Attenborough speak about you know how wrecking the planet and I mean I hear people talk in the language of participation and justice and equality and transparency but then I mean almost no one raises the real issue of tax avoidance right and of the rich just not paying their fair share I mean if there's like I met a firefighters fight as conference and no one's allowed to speak about water I mean this is not rocket science I mean we can talk for a very long time about all the stupid philanthropies schemes we can divide Bono once more can't it's we got to be talking about Texas that's it Texas Texas Texas well discuss philanthropy it's positive contribution to the world and its shortcomings I have for guess with me throughout the program Danny so it's going to Roger is here the chief executive of Oxfam g.b. Rhodri Davies is with his head of policy at the charity's Aid Foundation Lindsay magoi is here professor of sociology at the University of Essex and author of No such thing as a free gift the Gates Foundation and the price of philanthropy and Melissa Berman joins us from New York founding president and c.e.o. Of the Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors Inc That's a nonprofit philanthropy service launched by the Rockefeller family to help donors create thoughtful effective philanthropy throughout the world welcome to all 4 of you thank you very much for being here let's start with the obvious question as to whether philanthropy works or not Lindsay magoi. Certainly philanthropy can be important for raising consciousness about things like the problem of inequality in the world a problem that is growing worse each year both domestically and internationally but whether philanthropy has made any dent in reducing inequality over the past 30 years despite the vast rise in the amount of foundations who are engaged in giving is not the case that hasn't made a dent in narrowing inequality and some people feel it might be actually exacerbating the problem no dent at all no Rhodri Davies for you does philanthropy work I guess that the answer to the question depends on what you feel the purpose of philanthropy is I certainly take Lindsay's point that when it comes to thinking about inequality as the prime problem that philanthropy is attempting to address that is something of a challenge because arguably philanthropy is reflective of the existing systems and structures within which wealth is created so it's quite difficult often to use it as a tool to radically alter those structures but then that being said there are other purposes for philanthropy again Lindsay alluded to them bringing marginalized groups into the mainstream and giving them a voice within a democracy Rauf to not voice might be otherwise not hurt I think the important thing for politicians policymakers and philanthropists themselves is to have clarity about what the role of philanthropy is as opposed to the State of the market so clear aims and realistic games would be your argument yes Danis was going to Roger does it work or not well I think it's important to recognize that flying through people generosity are in some ways essential aspects of being human I think all of us don't have to be a billionaire to be generous or to be a flying through this and I think it's important recognize that we should celebrate that aspect of the human condition if you will but the problem for me all the challenge is that you know we live in an era of human history where there are are you watering levels of accumulation You know last year we think the poor. As top of the world's population had its combined wealth shrink while the world's billionaires got richer by $2500000000.00 u.s. Dollars a day the problem of course is that presumably if you are one of those billionaires only so many yachts one can buy in so many trips one can take and so you need to find a way of spending that money and we've got into a sort of infrastructure if you will a system that now feels sort of to imbalanced in terms of its fairness and terms of the expectation that we have that these very rich people will solve society's pro so however generous a group of very wealthy people chooses to be it doesn't redress that bigger picture exactly I think is a structural challenge that we have to face up to which is the distribution of resources of wealth if you will across humanity Melissa Berman a word on the effectiveness of philanthropy from your point of view you know I Rican fleetly that the rise of income inequality around the world is a very significant problem and also that I think it's important to recognize what a relatively small proportion philanthropy is of the global capital markets it is however a potential lever in certain circumstances but it's a very long game it's not a place where one looks often necessarily for very short term results so if you look act to for example the early 20th century when John d. Rockefeller and some other philanthropists essentially started what we now think of as the public health sector the amount of good that has come out of public health around the world is truly phenomenal and you have do see progress spurred by philanthropy in things like the drop in maternal and early childhood mortality around the world it is not where it should be that is absolutely true but on the other hand I think that philanthropy can clearly be shown to be making a difference in the fields in which it's possible for it to use the. Small lever that it has Ok we'll talk more about the decision making process and also who ultimately decides where best the money should go a little bit later on let's give you a flavor now of the current state of play in terms of philanthropic giving I've been talking to Denise chum who is the wealth reporter for our reporting shows that philanthropic giving has absolutely increased in the past decade part of that is the giving pledge which was launched by Warren Buffett and Bill and Melinda Gates and 2010 so there are right now $204.00 high net worth individuals that includes a lot of billionaires who say they'll donate more than half of their wealth away during their lifetime or after they die that set that doesn't mean that they have done that there are people who have signed the Giving Pledge who have given away a significant amount of money and there are people who are still working on that and how are these individuals tending to try and control where that money goes once they've pledged it we see different trends so there are people who have big private foundations who put their money into their foundations and are very much involved with that and are people like Warren Buffett They also have family foundations but also give to other people's foundations and new trend that we're seeing is actually donor advised funds these are charitable entities that you give to you and you also get a tax benefit from them but they're different from private foundations because here in the United States if you have a private foundation you have to file certain tax documents the thing about donor advice funds is that once you put that money in it's a black box we can't really see what happens we don't know what grants will be made and where that money is going to go because there's no requirement in terms of donor advice fun. So you could put that money in there and not really spend it for years or give it away I mean as opposed to private foundations where there's an obligation to give away a certain amount of money and a word about the rest of the we'll be talking here about the u.s. How much is what's happening in the u.s. If at all influencing other parts of the world it is harder to track giving outside of the United States and I think one thing to coin out here is that there's also more of an incentive to give in the United States due to tax laws that said there are a lot of major plans are pissed living outside of the United States those who have signed the Giving Pledge and those who haven't really who are giving a lot of money there is billionaire as in crime g. In India and we estimate that he's given away $21000000000.00 Carlos Slim is another one who's been giving a lot of money away nikka shing in Hong Kong he's given away more than $3000000000.00 in his lifetime so there are definitely some major players outside of the United States but as far as our reporting goes we see a lot more major donations within the United States than abroad and on the giving pledge that you've referred to this is an international document you know that people have signed and said we will do this in our lifetime do you anticipate that spreading further afield it will broaden the people who will be attracted to that as an idea in the used to come absolutely I think from Bill Gates and also Warren Buffett they're definitely pushing and encouraging people to give more especially at a time when there is much backlash against billionaires so I think that could encourage billionaires to actually step up and sign the giving pledge more one thing that I would like to point out about the giving pledge is that while this is a document that people sign it's not a binding agreement so you could sign the pledge. And the language is that you would donate more than half your wealth away during your lifetime or after you die so it is harder to track and harder to fulfill Dennys chum reporter for Forbes Lindsay McGorry you were nodding about last observation it's not an absolute obligation once you've signed it yes there's actually no enforcement mechanism for the Giving Pledge I think it's been a wonderful piece of public relations for the world's super rich and not really a mechanism which has actually led to observable effects for the better on the ground but among those who sign it and mean it that's a lot of money potentially potentially And I think we have to look at absolute versus relative figures because as your last guest did say when you look at absolute figures philanthropy philanthropic giving has increased in the us but proportionate to overall gross domestic product levels to the overall wealth that the nation giving has actually stayed statement for about 40 years Dani's who's going to write it would you stand on the giving pledge in the intentions behind it well I think the world is a better place with the Giving Pledge in it that it's great that those people who have been fortunate enough lucky enough greedy enough to accumulate such wealth blinding them selves no use of greed you know what may come back to that to so that it's great that there is this commitment this recognition that that wealth just can't sit there and keep growing and that there should be a positive obligation on them and so I think that's great but the question for me is is the world a much better place because these people have that wealth in the 1st place we have better a better society because we are now relying on the generosity of the ultra rich to solve society's problems the heavy lift of social and economic progress in human history has come through collective measures like the state like taxation like to redistribution and we're in an era where we've had coming together these 2 phenomena rising economic inequality and in many parts of the world a diminishing of the state of these collect. Mechanisms by which we do bring people out of poverty we do redistribute wealth and income and I think that's the problem that this giving pledge risks hiding Lindsay would you also argue that perhaps in a system like that there is a proliferation of a particular type of project which might appeal to those who are looking to be generous yes there's new a lot of new vehicles where you can be seen to be doing good by doing well so where you can try to marry the effort to increase revenues to increase your profits with creating measurable social impact for marginalized communities but I think actually the evidence base surrounding some of these new mechanisms is weaker than than it thought to be and also I think I'd like to come back to a point that Danny made about collective action often leading to the to the most important social benefits that we've seen over the past 20 years because it is true that we've seen great progress when it comes to under 5 childhood death for example but whether that can be attributed to private philanthropy is I think very doubtful especially when you look at the fact that private philanthropic bequests to developing regions pales in comparison to overseas aid flows from o.e.c.d. Countries like the United Kingdom and even those flows don't make up for some of the revenue that's lost through capital flight and tax evasion so the benefits we've seen have largely come from governmental actions which are subsidized by taxpayers and not by private donors which give amounts that are torched by the amount given by countries Melissa Berman I sensed you wanted to comment on that I agree absolutely that the major short term benefits that we're seeing come from the public sector because clearly the public sector has way more resource as well as mechanisms to make it happen that is a separate question from whether philanthropy is a valid way for wealth to be distributed I do believe that tax palm. Is extremely important tax evasion is a crime and it should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law were ever possible whether we have the right kind of minimum wages around the world property rights are extremely important and all of that lies with the public sector not the private sector but I think that there isn't nonetheless a role for private philanthropy to play in making the world a better place for people and for the and aren't meant in terms of doing the kinds of experiments that are difficult for the public sector to do and in terms of shining a light on issues where the public sector is failing us I suppose Roger Davies That was the point I was getting at when I asked Lindsey about a proliferation of particular projects that if you are a very wealthy potentially generous individual do you identify where the need is greatest or do you go down a road that satisfies your own particular interests 1st I think this goes to something it's inherent influence me and makes it quite soon an odd thing to study and to try and influence through policy which is that it's one in the same time about the individual choices of people based on a whole range of factors that may range from cultural religious through to sort of emotional and many other hidden factors but then are at another level at an aggregate level we would want it ideally to be a mechanism for driving social change and redistribution within society to sit alongside the states in the markets and I think those 2 perspectives quite often don't match up very neatly so there's an enormous amount to be done in the middle to try in shape philanthropy to be as effective as possible in responding to needs without stifling it by limiting some of that freedom not at the end of the day is the thing that drives people to give Let's talk a little bit more about the effectiveness of what people may do in these circumstances because we can. You know from Trevor diggity he's a British businessman who has become increasingly involved in philanthropy in recent years so how did he get into the business of giving I wouldn't call myself really a particular generous person. But I thought I would try setting up my own business and that was very very successful. Where lots and lots of money which I never expected so really that was how it came about you know I suppose to be completely honest perhaps I felt a bit guilty about having that amount of money and I thought well I had better do something good was. Right so that's the decision making point how do you then decide where to put some of that money what I always used to do I set up a Charities a foundation account I put one 3rd of my income into that account but of course as soon as you start giving to charities your name is on their address list I wasn't choosing they were choosing me clearly control is part of this story and how much control philanthropists feel they have once they've made the initial decision yes to give money how much control did you feel you had at that point well I didn't have any any control at all but I didn't want any can control it but yes you are definitely right now I do want control and I didn't start giving to charity in any significant way till 2018 that with my 1st big gift. Which was for a project in picking a faster and yes I was looking for control there because it was quite a lot of money tell us about the project and what you were looking to achieve it's all about bees and it is supporting a village in the south of the country particularly the ladies of The Village and we've gotten beehives training we provided them with equipment we bought some land we planted some trees and that was a year long project it was very successful and I did that project through a British charity they have an office in Ghana and it was part of my original agreement with this charity that I would go up to 3 times to see the village as it turned out I only went out twice and I was disappointed it's the 1st time I went how I was in the country for 7 days but I was only with the villagers for 4 hours in that $77.00 days and it was the Sinai when I went out in May last year and it's not long enough to create a relationship the implication of what you've just said is that the moment a 3rd party is introduced however well intentioned it isn't well informed it is in this case the charity based in Ghana is the moment that your direct connection with what you're seeking to do is diluted to an extent that is is that frustrating yes yes it's frustrating but from my point of view it's solvable so and you live and learn I mean it was a very useful experience for me you know many good things came out of it so I own I'm pleased about that Trevor diggity British businessman and philanthropist Roger Davis he was talking about control initially in the context of the charities a foundation your organization and then more broadly in his more recent. Experiences but what do you say to him about that that element of well for him frustration within all this it's not true for philanthropists who are often people who are very used to having a very strong sense of agency in many things they've done and have a feeling that they perhaps of created wealth through their own business acumen to feel as though they want a high degree of control over charitable projects when they get involved with them and I think any charity working with a fly in space needs to find ways of allowing them to engage on to make use of some of those skills I would say that one of the longstanding challenges for philanthropy has always been that in many of the models that have historically been used allow donors to give away money but they don't necessarily also allow them to give away power and actually if you genuinely want to transform systems and structures and kind of move the needle on economic injustice actually we may need to look for models of philanthropy that allow shifts of power as well as just financial resources Melissa but a thought on that before we before we move on because you're clearly dealing with some very wealthy influential people who yes put forward a plan to spend a lot of money on as they see it doing good but they still want to make sure that they've got some control over it than they do although I think for truly committed philanthropists it is not so much that they want control as they want to have a sense that they're going to have an impact so if you can show them clearly a path toward impact then the issue of control becomes secondary and for them to be able to recognize and literally see for themselves that there are huge reservoirs of knowledge and insight among the people who are most affected and that you can have a kind of grant making and felt Lathrop be that is more protests. And that is more inclusive of the people who are most affected by the issue where you're trying to move the needle we have to take a short break now but just to remind you please do let us know what you think of the program or indeed any ideas for topics that you'd like us to look into you can e-mail us at the real story at b.b.c. Dot ca dot u.k. And if you enjoy the program we have a podcast you can subscribe to just search for b.b.c. The real story in your podcast app this is the b.b.c. World Service finding out is how it feels to know your father had committed the most terrible crime my name is follow on from one serious I've been feeling ashamed and guilty as if I were accomplished in 1076 made her agent that took control in Argentina for 70 years it ruthlessly hunted down anyone it deemed the fact we know this and yet. My name is and the neck I'm also of the daughter of a perpetrator of genocide my father they kill he says story of the children of the dictatorship security forces I used to say while on the one side the reason my dad I'm on the other side there is a torture then I realize not east the same pass right now they are keeping secrets so degrading is still going on my father they Keller Tuesday at 1330 and 23 g.m.t. Coming up on the real story in the next half hour the pros and cons of philanthropy some of the richest and most powerful people in the world prepare to meet at Davos next week how dependent will some of the world's poorest people be on their generosity and if some only give to charitable causes because of what they get out of it is there a greater role for government in deciding who gets what that's coming up after a summary of the latest world news. B.b.c. News with Rosemary Maine scientists say the number of people infected by the new respect or a tree virus that is a measured in the Chinese city of one hand is likely to be far higher than official figures suggest Chinese health authorities have confirmed at least 45 cases of the virus including 2 deaths but experts in London estimate the true number of people infected is closer to 1700 the White House has released details of the legal team who defend President trumpets his impeachment trial in the u.s. Senate next week they include Ken Starr his investigation led to the impeachment of Bill Clinton the veteran lawyer Alan Dershowitz whose previous clients include o.j. Simpson a Mike Tyson will also take part President Trump has warned Iran supreme leader Ayatollah how Menai to be very careful with his words after he criticized the United States in a public sermon in Tehran in his Friday address to thousands of worship has Ayatollah come in a branded President Trump a clown Mr Trump tweeted that the supreme leader had not been so supreme lately on duress and the Organization of American states have failed to agree on a new mandate for an anti corruption mission that had operated in the Central American country for the last 3 years as a foreign ministry statement said there had been concerns the body had overreached its mandate. For teaches in the u.s. City of Los Angeles is suing Delta Airlines after a plane jettisoned thousands of gallons of fuel over their primary school playground before making an emergency landing the teachers say the fuel burned their skin eyes and throats and sent children screaming and the name faux an icon of Hollywood entertainment is divine ish from cinema screens after more than a century Disney has announced that no further films will be released under the logo 20th Century Fox future films will be branded 20th century studios b.b.c. News. You're listening to the real story from the b.b.c. World Service with me Julia more of her in this week we're asking if philanthropy works as an effective way for the world's richest to help the world's poorest with me throughout Danny's risk kind of Roger chief executive of Oxfam g.b. Rhodri Davis head of policy at the charity's Aid Foundation Lindsay magoi professor of sociology at the University of Essex author of No such thing as a free gift the Gates Foundation and the price of philanthropy and Melissa Berman founding president and c.e.o. Of Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors Inc Now we've talked about taxation or hinted at taxation in the 1st half of the program Downeast risk should there be an obligation on very wealthy people to give more via whatever system we end up producing Well I'm not sure it would make a lot of sense for there to be a sort of regulation that compels rich people to give more I think be far more effective to say they pay more in taxes so that they accumulate less but I do really you know want to celebrate the idea that when they give They're encouraged to give effectively you know we've been talking a lot about you know the fact that money may trickle down but power does that who decides what's effective Well I think that that's where I am optimistic there's a growing body of actors including the organizations like the one Melissa's founded which are aimed at making sure that flan therapy is as effective as it could be so given the circumstances can we use this money and look you know I've worked in civil society for almost all of my career and therefore have been a consumer of philanthropy if you will and you know when I see flan to be at its best it does take on risky issues important but unpopular issues where power is challenge where it's not about generosity but more about justice you know where you know in a previous job we launched a brave philanthropies award where we celebrate in front of us who are being brave and we we awarded the likes of the Wallace Global Fund an American initiative that was challenging investors to divest from fossil fuels so the. Outing edge of Flann therapy I think is really interesting and it's always been the anti-slavery movement was inspired by some plan that was the ending child marriage would have been impossible were not for the foresight of some key flats but so I think that edge we need to celebrate but that's about nudging to a degree isn't it that's about saying to people if you do this then you'll get rewarded for it or your name will appear in lights in some shape or form not always because I think some of us are very happy playing a role behind the scenes I think the key is about identifying where that knowledge is likely to be most effective where is that leverage point where this bit of capital can make some serious change Lindsay where you on the obligation idea because clearly there is a libertarian argument that says I've earned a lot of money I worked hard to do so it's mine hands off. I think you've hit the problem out there on the head right now currently we live in an environment where people feel that vast wealth gains have been duly and fairly earned and I'm not suggesting that a lot of very wealthy people are not incredibly hard workers and very intelligent people but I think at times certain political economic infrastructures that have been implemented over the past 40 years have made it far easier to engage in what was once called sort of illegitimate earning by classical liberal thinkers including people like Adam Smith who thought that you shouldn't have what is called unfair gains from things like absentee landlord ship where essentially you can invest early on in a product or in the ownership of an asset and continue to yield profits despite any effort on your part and actually I do not think some of the corporate profits we're seeing today are fairly earned nor legally earned especially when people can engage in tax evasion without sufficient enforcement So is this a problem that can be placed on one individual know is that the fault of the wealthy philanthropist often no but still to suggest that those profits have been fairly earned is I think very debatable but that's about democratically elected governments introducing laws that will clamp down on who or where have some of these laws been generated where did they stem from and there's been some really good books written lately that look at what is called self-serving donor advocacy so if you look for example at the position of right leaning philanthropist that has been seen to give very generously to university economics programs for example that advocate for a very minimal tax state for example that have advocated for low taxes on high earners these laws themselves have come as a result of the lobbying efforts that have been handsome as a result of disproportionate wealth gains for the very rich Melissa Berman are you in the camp that says more wealthy people ought to give more. I think that once you say ought and put in a requirement then you're talking about tax and if we want as a society in various jurisdictions to increase the tax level that wealthy people pay or change the rules and regulations about how profit is generated I think that's an objective that jurisdictions should certainly follow if that's what their voting public wishes for but we find that people of means are getting engaged in serious philanthropy much earlier in their lives and that they want to not just be generous but also informed and actively engage and that's despite Is it a political climate you might point to in some parts of the world at the moment that suggests that raising taxes is unpopular it's not the kind of thing that most people who are winning elections is looking to do it's true that many people especially in the us are opposed to anything that speaks of taxation and that Americans as a whole compared to people in many other parts of the world are exposed are much more skeptical about the role of the public sector that's in in part what Ditto the recognized way back in the 18th century when he came to the u.s. And saw what he described as all these private voluntary organizations active in communities Americans are not particularly enthusiastic about the public sector I'm going to bring a voice in on the a moment but Roger Davies a thought on this sense of obligation and then we'll hear a voice that echoes what Melissa was saying a moment ago but the thought 1st on this obligation point I think the question of obligation is a is a really interesting one and it's I mean I think broadly and I My job is and has been for the last decade to try to encourage people at all levels of wealth to give more but I would say you need to be careful to make sure you understand that that's not necessarily a direct answer to some of the concerns about taxation inequality I think those needs sometimes to be sorted out separately I think the interesting question. That a lot of the other panelists have alluded to is who is best placed to to drive that obligation I think often it isn't the government because government exportation on on the issues offline to be is you know not necessarily helpful and maybe actively counterproductive historically religious leaders and teachers would have taken up that mantle I think the interesting thing is whether philanthropists themselves see part of their role as driving other philanthropists to give more and again with the sort of long view this is this is a role many of them have always seen for themselves so there's a long history of Juda merchants for instance in their wills basically berating other Judah merchants for not leaving enough to charity Andrew Carnegie's Gospel of Wealth was largely about berating other philanthropists at the time for not giving his generously as he did and the giving pledge today I mean they're trying to do it subtly but it is essentially trying to create a norm amongst other extremely wealthy people that this is something that in some sense you should do one have an obligation you mean somebody might have read that list and thought oh he she's on it he's on it I better sign it yeah absolutely I believe it sociologists call it upward social information if you see people giving very large amounts of money and they're the sorts of people you views your peers you start to wonder whether you should be doing the same I mention we're going to hear from a very rich man with very definite views on this specifically Morris Pearl is chairman of Patriotic Millionaires a group of hundreds of high net worth Americans advocating for millionaires billionaires and corporations to pay their fair share of taxes so what's his assessment for the anthropic. I have nothing against philanthropy My only problem is these few philanthropists who say that oh because I give a tiny fraction of my money to pay for something I shouldn't be asked to pay taxes we believe strongly that philanthropy is great you know so is apple pie and motherhood but that taxes are necessary because we need to have the people through their elected representatives you know making decisions about how society's resources should be allocated what should be done you talked about people giving a tiny fraction in some cases you get knowledge that some people are giving significant sums of money was sure people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett have promised to give virtually all of their fortune to charities but there are other people who give a tiny amount to you know pay for some fancy building someplace and then they complain that we're asking them to pay the same rate of taxes as people that actually work for a living when they're taking advantage of loopholes and pay much lower rates and that's just not right they're just wrong about that when people choose to direct their funds philanthropically do they tend to do it in particular directions Well yes of course it's relatively easy to raise tens of millions of dollars to build a concert hall or something like that a lot someone's name and have parties with people wearing fancy clothes but no one raises money from philanthropists to build a sewage treatment center or build schools in poor neighborhoods or things like that there are things that we need the government which is really the people so we need the people deciding that we need certain things so taxes particularly taxes for those earning a lot of money is a better way. From your point of view is that putting a great deal of trust in government which frankly sometimes can be pretty inefficient Well government is just a word that we use for the people acting collectively we don't want a system where only the rich people get to decide that's not particularly better it may be more efficient if one billionaire can just make a decision and say that's what we're going to do but it's not fair because that doesn't make sense that any one person should be able to make a decision that applies to the millions of people who live in the country the political backdrop of the moment in the States is interesting because clearly inequality is a huge issue but you also have a current president for whom higher taxes do not appeal so how do you get around that particular issue Well the way we get around that particular issue is by having another election and electing different representatives and if you don't reside over a country. That we've made a decision to increase inequality and I am trying to explain to people today in every day that we actually would prefer policies that decrease any quality and that increase the ability of everyone to participate in our society and your organization is called specifically Patriotic Millionaires Yes so what constitutes a patriotic millionaire in your mind. Well what we're trying to do is deliberately have a provocative name saying that we are the actual Patriots We Are The Ones Who wants a society to work for everybody we're the ones who want everybody to participate in society and that is what patriotism actually is is wanting to have an inclusive society not wanting to have a society with a few rich people lots of poor people that does not work and frankly does not even work where we're all for the rich people Marist poll chairman of patriotic millionaires as he broadly right do you think I agree with many things that he said and I think it is helpful when high net worth individuals I mean it's a bit of a euphemistic way to say a very wealthy person is interested in increasing the ability of the state to command revenues through cracking down on tax evasion or of avoidance which may be legal but it's not necessarily moral and I think to define patriotism as being interested in redistribution is actually a good jurisdiction because redistribution over the past 50 years became a dirty word it was seen as a word that was an a so much to the ability of a country to become more wealthy but that is not the case and redistribution is simply the ability of the people of a government to ensure an equal right to a fair chance and also equality of outcomes both nationally and internationally where I'm a little bit wary of a word like patriotism is if it actually advances the idea that we can have a sort of an increase nationalist. That perverts the ability to ensure that about the nation doesn't override the ability of a developing nation to become stronger and wealthier What about the point about trusting government because if you are going to put taxes up get significantly more money to come in from the very wealthiest there's got to be a degree of trust in the government that will then spend that money has I think that's important and I think why have levels of trust declined in government I think it's because people see government as serving in a lead to stop the shipment whose interests are generally contrary to the interest of the general public and I think it also comes from people seeing corporate abuses of power and the fact that governments have seemed unable to restrict large companies like Amazon or Microsoft from paying very low taxes or even negligible tax you know in some countries they pay 0 tax by profiting from the efforts of workers in that region despite benefiting from public services that have been paid for by taxpayers in those regions so the role of philanthropy in decreasing corporate power is I think a problem because what we've seen over the past 20 years is that the new philanthropists are actually much more interested in strengthening the role of the corporate sector in delivering public services I wanted Melissa Berman to bring you in on this point about trusting government when for example people see a government that they identify as corrupt Do they really want to put their money in its coffers I think the issue of trust in government is extremely extremely critical for any progress to be made around the world I think that the pervasive point of view that all governments are either corrupt or inefficient is extremely dangerous and really not very well informed clearly there are corrupt governments clearly there are inefficient governments there are also plenty of in inefficient individuals and and nonprofit and for profit organizations going to Russia there is a long established organism that says I've got for. Make of argument one dollar I know better how to spend that than I do if I give it to somebody else who's less well informed about what's going through my mind at any given moment and that applies to this to a degree that I think again if done well philanthropy that has that sort of approach can be highly effective because it's again it's not necessarily just about the money it could be the skills that networks that are fun to piss brings. Sort of rather flippantly said plants but don't necessarily pay for solar treatment plants and in Oxfam's experience in my experience I've seen that some philanthropist do and it's incredibly powerful I mean I was in in Yemen a few months ago where you know a country facing one of the world's worst humanitarian crisis and through the support of some of our key flatter pick partners Oxfam has built water systems in places where large numbers of displaced people have put pressure on on water that have been trucked in and what's interesting there the loop that I think is really critical here that needs to be closed is those interventions the building of a water pipeline and pumping stations is now being in the process of transferred into local authorities so that those local institutions can can provide regular water services as a public service so philanthropy can play a role in encouraging that kind of project to happen to encourage the state to back that kind of project exactly and so long after the floods it was going Lothar Oxfam is gone hopefully there is a sustainable water system in that part of Yemen Rhodri Davies we're talking here inevitably about a set of circumstances against the backdrop of an economic model namely the capitalist model of the West and while that remains the case and I'm not about to have a debate about capitalism there is only so much that can be shifted here isn't that I think that is true to some extent I mean I think in a lot of these these conversations about the role of philanthropy as they relate to the economic injustices we face as a result of capitalism I come back to a famous thing that Martin Luther King said about philanthropy is commendable but it must not call. Was this to overlook the circumstances of economic injustice that make up philanthropy necessary in the 1st place so I think it's too easy often for people to think that if you focus on philanthropy that means that you can forget about needing to address some of those deeper underlying issues with the capitalist system I actually think what we need to do is to be able to hold both things in our heads at the moment and not let the Best Be the enemy of the good so that we can use philanthropy as a tool in the here and now even if our long term aim is to reform or even sort of radically transform capitalism but the current economic model and this is wonderful for if you really allows people to become exceptionally rich billionaires times x. Number is anybody saying there needs to be a lot a level above which you cannot go people are starting to talk about that in a mantra that's arising in the States is this expression every billionaire is a policy failure and I think that expression needs to be carefully listened to because they're not saying that the billionaires are the failures and I think that's important not to attribute individual blame to any one per cent but they are saying it is a policy failure so the ability of people to become that wealthy at specially at a time of stagnating or regressive wage growth in most regions of the wealthy world and at a time a vastly increasing inequality in most developing regions we have to actually have that debate which I think Julianne you're right to say we can't necessarily show the problems of capitalism in this program the next 5 but not in the next 5 minutes but that is the debate that needs to I mean that you place a ceiling you push everybody below that ceiling and everybody who is a long way away from that ceiling will not get anywhere near it anymore is the argument not necessarily because some people suggest well you are not poor because someone else is rich but actually especially in the 19th century that was the belief that some people's riches rested in the exploitation of other people and I think that is the case today but we're not discussing that enough I mean there's a particular type of tax that lies at the heart of by. Thriving inequality and the key to better public services and that's wealth taxes one of the reasons we're seeing such a rise in the sort of extreme wealth accumulation is that wealth taxes are generally low only 4 percent of all taxes collected around the world come from some form of capital tax that means those people who are lucky enough or the earn their own capital get better returns if you will compared to those of us who have only incomes to earn that has led to this rise in the ultra wealthy and we think at Oxfam that it's about time that society around the world thinks about how it taxes capital more effectively because you know we're talking about relatively small sums here colleagues Oxfam estimate that a point 5 percent tax on the ultra wealthy in terms of the wealth holdings would raise more than enough income to make sure that every child in the world who doesn't go to school goes to school and provide better health care that will save more than $3000000.00 lives and that money raised you would say would go to each government where it's needed and they would wisely spend it well I think each society needs to come up with a way of allocating that resource whether that goes through public services as we know them or whatever I think that's what we have to face up to I still think though that there would be an important role for private philanthropy if only to hold the public sector accountable to ensure that marginalized people are getting access to these services and shoe also helped spur some of the kind of innovation that might help the increased resources get to where they need to be more effect and I wonder if that's also true I mean casting the net geographically more broadly you look at countries like China like India where wealth is growing certainly for some at a huge speed will that change the picture Melissa Berman do you think from the one that we've been discussing thus far you know philanthropy is really beginning to take hold in China over the last 20 years the Chinese government has permitted the development of private found. De chanst for the 1st time and a great deal of charitable giving in China happens on a very informal person to person basis through social media and many of the major Chinese business tycoons like Jack Ma and pony Ma have become extremely generous and are funding schools and rural communities and are also looking at dealing with some of the climate change and viral degradation issues that China as a country is facing so the rise of the wealth holders in China is going to have a significant impact on how that country begins to address some of its development challenges a few years ago Julian I was involved in a study where we interviewed Flint appears in countries like Brazil India South Africa and you know it's great that there is this emerging leadership if you will from rich people in those countries but one thing that we found very boring was a lot about philanthropy is conservative with a small so you know it tackles social as a relatively less controversial issues relatively little of that philanthropy seems to be willing or able to take on big societal issues human rights gender equality social norms and again if you buy this argument the fantasies that it's best when it's taking on difficult issues I do worry that philanthropy in those sorts of countries and not quite stepping up yet let's throw things but then finally Rhodri Davies How do you see the future on this topic How's it going to emerge in the coming years do you think I mean I think you think just to segue from what was said before I think with the emergence of philanthropy in some of these emerging markets when you sent his wealth around the world absolutely agree with Dani one of the things that is interesting and possibly concerning about China or as it develops a cultural flow and a is I get the sense that the Chinese government is enthusiastic about philanthropy in as far as it is about service provision and addressing needs within the existing system but much less interested in the model of fun to be that is about radically challenging that system so I think if the center of gravity in terms of global fund to be shifts in that way that could be problematic I think Melissa Berman the way forward from here. I think that we need that this conversation is about Yes And clearly we need to ask ourselves as a set of societies what we expect in terms of how income assets are shared and how they are distributed and the role of the public sector in that and that is the big question and bigger of course than this one our can cover in terms of philanthropy I am extremely optimistic about the increasing awareness of ultra high net worth individuals around the world of issues of inequality Demick problems and the need for philanthropy to deal with the very fundamental issues that my co panelists have all identified I think it takes time for that to happen though. Optimistic I'd like to see the word philanthropy actually reclaimed in reappropriated by many different groups throughout society because that it's rude it means love of humanity and in recent years that very term has almost come to be monopolized by very large donors that gain a lot of media coverage for their individual bequests but proportionately in both the u.s. And the u.k. Poor people actually tend to give more of their take home income to charitable causes than the very wealthy to do so celebrating the philanthropies that comes from the common woman and the common man I think is a way to reclaim this powerful word love of humanity and use individual gifts to create a sort of expectation that caring for others is a type of attitude we want to applaud encourage but across all levels not just super wealthy individuals who gain the most media fanfare usually find a wood I hope historians look upon this period of human history as a sort of blip where there will Volga levels of accumulation but that was redressed not through so social formants and war and discontent but by the sort of evolution of. New systems of taxation of redistribution so that we can collectivize our response to some of these talents and not just rely on the sort of voluntary generosity of the ultra rich Well that's it for this week on The Real Story thank you to all 4 of you Danny's who's going to Roger Rhodri Davies Lindsay magoi Melissa Berman thank you all if you'd like to listen to the program again or any other from the archive you can listen back online by searching for b.b.c. The real story if you like this week's program make sure you don't miss another edition and subscribe to the podcast you can find it simply by searching for the real story in your podcast at and we'd like to hear your thoughts on the program as well e-mailing us at the real story at the b.b.c. Dot seo daughter u.k. But for me on the team that's the real story for this week thank you for listening this is the b.b.c. World Service and on the inquiry this week President Trump has been impeached over accusations he sought help from Ukraine to smear a likely election rival I'm rethought Xander and we want to know why does he crane have such a corruption problem in the inquiry at b.b.c. World Service dot com slash inquiry. And at 550 g.m.t. On World Wide Web 18 year old Sidney Hong from Bangladesh talks to computer scientist Professor my avatar which we head how she creates robots that cat These are machines that is a companion and a coach to children with autism strokes survive this and elderly patients with dementia this is the p.c. World Service the world's radio station. B.b.c. World Service It's 5 o'clock g.m.t. This is all of a con wait with the news room scientists say the number of people infected by a new virus in Central China is likely to be 40 times higher than officially confirmed one critical thing we need to know is find out where this forest came from we don't own the animal it originated and we don't know how widespread gun is and if we don't find that out we're unable to prevent this happening again also on the news or for teachers asserting a us ally and after a plane dumped fuel over their Primary School in Los Angeles had to jump the pilot notified air traffic personnel the flight would have been directed to a location from which fuel could be released without danger a u.s. Homeland security agency apologizes after a Native American woman is mocked for her braided hair and later. Need to shoot my last words your berries short fashion icon jump will go she is to stop designing clothes 1st of all top.

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